Things are boiling away over in the comments on my post on Speeding and other traffic fines in Italy as a result of yet more motorists being caught out by the Pisa ZTL honey trap.
The Guardian online has also written about this issue, and in response to an email I and others sent the newspaper, is looking into the matter. But Italy does not appear to give a damn.
Worryingly, Italy’s tourist authorities don’t seem to care that many foreign motorists are being fined for a moments inattention to Italy’s diabolically numerous and difficult the understand road signs. Inattention which is more often than not caused by aggressive and impatient Italian drivers.
Indeed, when one of my readers, Diane, wrote to the Italian tourist board on the Pisa fines issue, she was told point blank that they:
…cannot enter into negotiations with the Muncipality of Pisa.
What a great way of saying thanks to all those tourists who visit Italy and pay for the privilege. Tourists who provide a huge income for Italy and millions of jobs for Italians. Talk about sticking two fingers up. Thanks.
Come to friendly, caring Italy. Not.
Anyway, many thanks to Diane for trying.
Fortunately, I know many Italians to be decent people, otherwise I would suggest that everyone boycotts Italy as a holiday destination for a year. It would be interesting to see the effect on Italy’s already fragile ecomony.
Might teach Italy a salutory lesson though.
At times, Italy leaves you without words, well, just about!
Treviso hotels says
It is very sad to read such reviews, I hope this won’t become a regularity.
Alex Roe says
Provided Italy starts to care more about tourists, there should be no need for such articles, in which case they won’t become regular, but if Italy’s tourism operators do misbehave, they will and should be.
Treat tourists well and they will return and tell their friends – rip them off and they won’t come to Italy and will tell their friends not to either.
Best,
Alex
Treviso Tourism says
It is true that if you want to experience true Italian hospitality, you must avoid touristy places.
Mrs My Husband Will Need to Be Dragged to Italy IF There Is a Next Time says
To address your comment that: “Perhaps you were not dressed well, although staying in a $400 a night does not suggest this – some Italians tend to turn their noses up at people without the right look. Maybe you were just too polite, which I think is considered as a sign of weakness and lack of authority by some in Italy.”
Hi Alex,
We live in UES Manhattan, a few blocks off Madison Avenue. Perhaps you’re correct: That we simply didn’t have the right look. I think we dressed pretty average. My husband was wearing a black leather Feragamo jacket and I wore a Burberrry gold mini trenchcoat or a Barbour brown jacket. We are both slender build, in our 40s to 50. Certainly across the board, we noticed the “Look” consists of one’s favorite latest style jeans, and a jacket either black, grey or tan. Everybody wore black, grey or tan ONLY. In Milan, we noticed the subtlety of more tailored styling to a jacket, but the colors were restricted to black, grey and tan, with an occasional touch of red accent. Like a red scarf, or red shoes. Red was the only accent color. It was uncanny to see so much conformity. We tend to wear different colors, and do not restrict our clothing to black, grey or tan. So maybe the museum clerks, the cafe servers, the store clerks didn’t like our colors. But all grooming and fashion sense issues aside. Perhaps, it was the degree of politesse.
Most of the time we are polite people, but I wouldn’t describe us as overly polite. Without exception, we were treated very well at high end hotels, and upscale shops. It was everywhere else we were trashed. My assessment is that the more educated sophisticated Italians do not indulge themselves in this brutal “prison guard” behavior. But there are far more average people to go around to make life effectively unpleasant. Certainly dishonesty, and over-charging is going to hurt Italy’s tourism over time. And the petty rudeness of museum clerks, average store clerks, and restaurant staff is going to ensure low returns to no returns! But what will endure for life times, is the memory of the hatefullness.
Alex Roe says
Hi again Mrs My Husband Will Need to Be Dragged to Italy IF There Is a Next Time,
Certainly sounds as though you were dressed well enough – not that I’m any great judge. The Italian color code is difficult for us non-Italians to get right, but is basically no more than three, subtle, colors – different shades of the same color are OK, I’m told.
There is a lot of conformity – Italians, in the main, do not go for loud colors. To be honest, though, I don’t think it was the way you were dressed. Indeed, perhaps you looked too wealthy, and this sparked some envy. Indeed, your treatment in upscale shops and hotels would seem to suggest this – not that this should be held against you at all. It could just be the difference there is between Italian courtesy and US courtesy, but I’m not convinced.
As for being ripped off too, that could have been because you looked well-heeled, and they thought they’d have a go. Unfortunately, this does happen in Italy (and in other countries), but it’s inexcusable, and does no favors for Italy. I’m sure you’ve been spreading the word on your treatment in Italy – as indeed I would do in your position.
If you do ever decide come to Italy again (I think this is doubtful), dragging your protesting husband behind you, before you come, read a few blogs like this one – you’ll find some good ones on BlogfromItaly’s links page – and don’t be afraid to write and ask about where to go, and where to eat etc. Italy, perhaps more than some other countries, requires more study before embarking on a trip – and a little preparation can help you avoid being ripped off. If you want to try Venice, for example, I know someone who can point you towards the right places to try.
Very sorry to hear that your trip to Italy has left you with a memory of the memory of the hatefullness. Very sad. Not at all good.
Once again, thanks for mentioning this.
Best regards,
Alex
Alex Roe says
Hi Francesca,
This seems to explain why levels of customer service in Italy tend to leave a little to be desired at times, and so does this chunk of your comment:
…”incredibly, as a manager, I discovered that you cannot ask your employees to say ‘Buon Giorno” or have a nice day.”
Incredible! Sort of encourages poor customer service!
Low pay levels and boredom do not help matters either, something needs to be done to cure both problems.
As for the rude Milanese, you are probably right – I’ve been here so long, I don’t even notice it any more! But, on the rare occasions that I make it back to the UK, I’m usually stunned by the levels of common courtesy which exist. Compared to Italy, everyone seems so polite!
Italians, alas, some and not all, will rip people off if they think they can get away with it – and it is easy to get away with it if you are unlikely to see your hapless victim ever again. I keep on pointing it out, but the Italian concept of honesty is somewhat different from the UK and UK concept! At times, it is a lot different!
Best,
Alex
Francesca Maggi says
Well, to give you a bit of perspective of the kids in the museums, where I work with, it is a problem. They are drastically underpaid & overworked. In the UK, my colleagues would take the ticket-takers & switch sites, places, anything to break up the monotony. Many of these people have been sitting in that coveted chair for years. They don’t get paid more for being nice, and, incredibly, as a manager, I discovered that you cannot ask your employees to say ‘Buon Giorno” or have a nice day.
As for storeowners, they do not believe that the customer is always right. And, sorry Alex, you’ve simply been here too long. The milanese have rudeness down to an art form.
If it’s any consolation, I found in Milan that almost every ‘service worker’ I came into contact with was a foreigner – they were nice beyond belief (which is why I asked where they were from). You only have to watch out for Eastern Europeans at the cashier, as they cannot crack a smile.
As for the banks, my sister couldn’t change dollars after 3 banks in as many towns in Sicily-but she was shown the door & not escorted!
I penned this blog after her trip last summer – I even forgot to include the part where she was asked to pay 10 euro to sit at a picnic table in the National park! and Italians think I was exaggerating for effect!
But please see the one prior in which I talked about all the wonderful sites to see & do (from that same trip).
Francesca Maggi
http://burntbythetuscansun.blogspot.com/2009/09/tourism-in-italy-petroleum-or-quicksand.html
http://www.touringtracks.com
Mrs My Husband Will Need to Be Dragged to Italy IF There Is a Next Time says
I see nothing much has changed in a year or two from the earlier travelers. I read an interesting article on Time’s website which I’ll post after my comments. We experienced unabashed rudeness in Italy everyday for two weeks. Firstly, on our first day in Rome, we were escorted out of a bank two doors down from our $400 per night hotel–the Boscolo,– after asking if they would exchange dollars for euros. The man took us down a stairwell on the back side of the bank, and I was wondering if he were taking us down to a dungeon. Finally we got to some doors, through which we had not originally entered, and he curtly pointed to the doors, and said, “Here is the exit,” turning on his heels and abruptly walking off. I’ve never been escorted from a bank before. At one sidewalk cafe, we paid about $45 for 2 cappuccinos, water, one sandwich, one pastry, and an additional cupertino. We found clerks working in museums to be the rudest people of all. We finally realized we were like prisoners, and many Italians in the tourist business have a text book prison guard mentality, and behave like sadists. We were sport, and felt they were almost abusive, they were so rude. In restaurants in general, we seemed completely ignored, and then overcharged. My husband hated Italy, and swore we’d never return. I kept defending the Italians, and how they must be more sick of us. In Florence anytime we bought anything, it was clear we were paying extra. Clerks would talk in front of us about how much they should charge, say for the marzipan per oz.. The only place we paid “local” was for a pair of shoes, which had the price on the tag. In Venice, the rudeness was off the charts. We went into one cafe for coffee, and the two women behind the counter gave us their backs and ignored us. I would say 75% of the time. we were treated rudely. So I still love the Italians who were just normal, nice people. I was very surprised to find in Milan we could actually relax and feel normal again. I guess the size of the city can accommodate tourists in numbers better. Really Venice and Florence are just overwhelmed with the numbers of tourists for their small spaces. I don’t know what excuse the Romans have though for their utter hostility. After all, they would be slaves of Nazis, those that lived that is, if it weren’t for our fathers saving their asses; not to mention their economy relies on tourism. And you know, they can come to New York city anytime, and get treated far far better, and pay the same as the “locals” for food and water and taxis.
I like to think, we can just consider all those nasty Italians just a bunch of negative people, and if we just don’t invest emotionally in their ugliness, who cares, one can still enjoy Rome. But nah, it was on a daily basis everywhere we went. So I’m not sure I’ll keep excusing the Italians, and nag my husband to reconsider another visit.
The following is a copy of a Time article, which is very interesting. I think if its publication were more current I would understand why we were treated the way we were. But it was published over fifty years ago. But I wonder if there is a connection. Because I wondered who taught all those twenty-somethings such rude behavior. Their parents had to be around forty something, and their parents sixty to seventy-something…So where is all this hate coming from????
ITALY: How To Be Rude
Monday, Oct. 13, 1952
Of all European hosts, the Italians have long been the kindest to visitors from the U.S. They go out of their way to smile, to cheer, to welcome, and to give directions which may or may not prove helpful. From the Communist point of view, nothing could be worse.
Last week, reported Rome’s Il Messaggero, Italy’s 3,000,000 Communists got a stern memorandum from headquarters outlining a “proper code of bad manners” to be observed toward visiting Americans. Items:
¶ Women comrades must turn an indifferent cheek and pretend not to have heard Americans who speak to them. In dance halls, Communist girls “must never reserve a dance for an American; they should pretend to have been already asked by someone else. Male comrades must be ready to back them up in this.”
¶ On trams or buses near an American civilian or soldier, the true Communist “must turn his back abruptly, without even looking [at the American] and without showing him any courtesy.” If the American is accompanied by his wife or girl friend, the Communist traveler must “never give his seat to these women.”
¶ Shopkeepers should make Americans wait, serve them last, “or better yet, they should not serve them at all, stating that the requested goods are unavailable.”
¶ In the street, “never give advice or directions to Americans; instead, one must simply turn his back, showing dislike.” In sports, “one must always support the opponents of the Americans.”
¶ All of this, added the directive, should convince Americans that “Italian youth will never cooperate with them in case of war.” Above all, concluded the directive, never let the visitors know that the nastiness was planned. “One should be rude,” said the memo, “but with spontaneity.”
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,817031,00.html#ixzz0oP4oiW5r
Alex Roe says
Hi Mrs My Husband Will Need to Be Dragged to Italy IF There Is a Next Time,
You were treated badly. Italians can be abrupt and offhand with people – I’ve experienced this myself plenty of times. When I first came to Italy I was scared to go into shops because of the grumpy why in which many shopkeepers seemed to behave. Now I sometimes come across this, but not that often – possibly because I know Italian, or possibly because I am now used to it after such a long time in Italy. In general though, here in Milan, and like you, I’ve never been treated badly.
Perhaps you were not dressed well, although staying in a $400 a night does not suggest this – some Italians tend to turn their noses up at people without the right look. Maybe you were just too polite, which I think is considered as a sign of weakness and lack of authority by some in Italy.
Whatever, there is no excuse for such treatment, even if stories of Rome treating its visitors with a certain degree of disdain are not unheard of. Last year a Japanese couple were ripped off royally by a Rome restaurant – and a supposedly good quality one at that.
It’s a funny attitude, because as you say, Italians make a good living off tourists. And as you say, Americans did give their lives to liberate Italy – as well as throwing millions at the country after the war.
At the end of the day, I understand why you would not wish to return to Italy. If it’s some small consolation, I’ve heard stories from northern Italians of their bad treatment at the hands of southern Italians. The concept of customer service is still not fully appreciated in Italy – but there are signs that they are getting there.
Blogs and travel websites can help travellers avoid rip offs and bad treatment – 20 years ago, tourists were just meat to the slaughter house.
Thanks for commenting.
Best,
Alex
Francesca Maggi says
Ciao ! Great finding you, I will post a link to your blog on mine…
You might appreciate this latest posting of mine, the August reassessment of Hospitality in the Bel Paese…Italy’s Petroleum or Quicksand?
http://burntbythetuscansun.blogspot.com/2009/09/tourism-in-italy-petroleum-or-quicksand.html
Alex Roe says
Ciao to you, Francesca!
I’ll link back to you too.
Will have a look at your post – sounds interesting.
Best,
Alex
Gloria says
Hello,
I have a question for Alex and Judith. We are planning to return to Italy from mid April to perhaps mid May 2010. This time we would like to go to the north/east part of Italy. Treviso, Udine, Trieste – thereabouts. Even though I no longer have relatives in Treviso, it is where my grand-parents come from so for me it is a must-see. If you have any information you can share with me, it would be greatly appreciated.
(I may have given up on Rome for awhile, but NOT on Italy!!).
Kind regards,
Gloria
Alex Roe says
Hi Gloria,
Glad you have not given up on Italy!
Treviso, Udine, and Trieste are not places I know much about. Judith might know something, but she’s based down towards the south of Italy.
The people who run this place may know more: https://italychronicles.com/bob-and-jennys-b-and-b-vicenza-italy/
But they are not really in the area which interests you, even if they are closer than Judith and I.
I’ll have a hunt and see if I can find any bloggers in Italy who know the area.
Best,
Alex
Alex Roe says
I guess you could try to contact the guy behind this blog: http://triestedailyphoto.blogspot.com/
He may be able to help you.
Best,
Alex
Alex_Roe says
Hi again John,
Thanks for replying. Judith is just trying to defend a place which she loves – and she is well aware of Italy’s foibles too.
It’s a real shame to hear that Italy disappointed you. And, yes, as Italian Beppe Grillo points out over and over again, corruption is a problem in Italy, even the Governor of the Bank of Italy, one Marco Draghi makes a point of telling this to the country’s powers that be. I am hopeful that this aspect of Italy will change – even if such change will not happen overnight.
And yes, tourists should be treated well. The attitude should be that tourists should be encouraged to come back to Italy – there is so much to see – and operators in the tourist sector should not just think: “Got his cash, will never see him again, so I don’t care.” What some of Italy’s many tourist establishments do not comprehend is that they are ambassadors for Italy. Yes, people may not come back to the very same restaurant or hotel (some might though), but they are more likely to come back to Italy if they feel good about their treatment here.
If you do ever decide to set foot in Italy again in the future, then have a word with Judith, who I know, and she’ll set you up in a good place to stay, and point you in the direction of places which should treat you well.
It is true, as Judith said, that there are mountains of information on Italy. This is a good and a bad thing, in that you may find the bad information, or may be overwhelmed by the amount of information and certain conflicting reports. And the openness of the world wide web is also its weakness. It’s difficult to know if some comments/info is/are genuine, I know.
As for letting you comment, you are more than welcome.
Best regards,
Alex
John Gieson says
Judith, I went back to the same place I got ripped off later just to test when there was a different group of staff and asked how much a cappucino was and it was 1.80. In Rome, most Italians did not care where I was from, most (not all) were rude, some extremely. You seem a little indignant of criticism to the Italians and the whole ‘dont let the door hit you on the way out’ comment is a little 8th grade-ish.
Alex, my main feelings after visiting Italy is extreme disappointment. I have met Italians before I went there and most were really nice people. But they all told me their country was very corrupt. Since I have been back I have done more reading on the reality there and understand that they think the ability to trick and swindle people is something to be proud. When you visit a country, the people are your hosts and you are their guest…..I appreciate that some tourists maybe drunks and troublesome, but most bring in money, spend money on good and services, and are a positive contribution to the economy. To treat tourists with such disdain is just not right. Thank you for letting me comment.
John Gieson says
I agree that Italy doesnt care about tourists. I have just got back from a holiday in Rome and have never been so outraged in my life. The common scams that legitimate operations still pull in Rome you would expect in some depraved third world country, not in the EU. I mean the really nasty tricks such as when you dont ask for the price of a cappuccino they will charge you 4 euro instead of the 1 euro they charge to Italians. I found the Italians to be masters of half assing everything, they just simply dont care about doing a job well unless their job is fleecing tourists. Italy would be a beautiful place if it were not for the Italians, and thankfully the birthrate in the country is so low that eventually they will be gone, and maybe tourists can enjoy Italy without being swindled.
Alex_Roe says
“I agree that Italy doesnt care about tourists.” This is certainly the impression some get after a trip to Rome, alas, John. With a little luck, Italy’s new Tourist Minister will work to change this.
The cappuccino scam, may not have been a scam. If you sit down in some places, the prices rises exponentially. The trouble is non-Italians do not know this, and it is very easy to be caught out.
“I found the Italians to be masters of half assing everything, they just simply dont care about doing a job well unless their job is fleecing tourists.” – If it’s any consolation, the Italians who are into fleecing don’t really care who they rip off, and will happily try it on with other Italians.
“Italy would be a beautiful place if it were not for the Italians…” – in great part, Italy is a beautiful place because of the Italians. You really do need to try other areas to find out that Italians are not that bad – although haughtiness in the treatment of foreigners is quite common. Not sure why, and it is not good, I know.
“thankfully the birthrate in the country is so low that eventually they will be gone, and maybe tourists can enjoy Italy without being swindled.” ooh, er, the sign of an unhappy bunny. You will not be recommending Italy to others, I imagine! At least until it is no longer Italian…
Even the Japanese tourist who was ripped off in Rome said he would think about coming back to Italy, but, as the old adage goes “first impressions count”.
Thanks for the comments – it’ll be interesting to see any follow ups.
Best,
Alex
Judith in Umbria says
Bye, don’t let the door hit you on your way out to Disneyworld.
I live in Italy and capuccino doesnì’t cost 1 euro even in a small town. If you stand at a bar and drink it down it costs somewhere around 2 euro, if you go sit at a table in or out of the bar it will cost more, maybe even much more. That info has been disseminated in books, articles and the internet for decades. If you do not care to know anything about where you are going, you are better off going to entrance fee made-to-please situations like amusement parks.
This title is asking for trouble. Italy and the government may not care enough about tourists, but most Italians do care, even when they don’t profit from them. If they have any capacity to speak to you, they want to know all about how you ended up in Italy and they’ll tell you things to do and see you would otherwise miss.
Alex_Roe says
Fair points, Judith.
Still, what John came across does not tend to show Italy in a great light – but as I said in a reply to another of his comments: a) he should try other places in Italy b) I could introduce him to some wonderful Italians.
Friends of mine in the UK come to Italy to ski, but have commented that they came across haughty hotel staff. I don’t think they were alone. Customer service does tend to be patchy in this country, as I found when I was first here.
You really need to live in Italy for quite some time to see all that is good about the place – a holiday, I feel, is simply not long enough to get a real feel for a country.
Then there is the arrogant tourist who puts noses out of joint – sometimes it is not the hosts who are to blame for odd treatment, but the guests. People often forget this.
Your input is always welcome, Judith. Hope you are having a wonderful summer in Umbria, or wherever.
All the best,
Alex
Gloria says
Oh dear, how sad the world would become without the next generation of Pavarotti, Boccelli, Sofia Loren, Da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Versacci, need I go on. The wonderful Italian music, the arts the fashions. I may have been upset about the treatment of one city in the entire country but as a 3rd generation Italian I am extremely proud of what my ancestors have accomplished and hopeful of what is to come.
Alex_Roe says
You are right, Gloria – the world would be worse off for the absence of Italy and what is has and can produce.
I guess that Italy’s eccentricity is down to its creativity. Creative types always tend to be a little on the different side.
There is a long list of what Italian Americans, like yourself, have achieved here: http://www.niaf.org/research/contribution.asp
Click away and feel proud – note too that I also have Italian ancestors.
As I like to point out, Italy has enormous potential. Some of this has been realised, but there is lots more just waiting to be tapped. Let’s hope these opportunities do eventually present themselves.
Best,
Alex
Gloria says
Hi Alex,
What an interesting web site! Thank you for sharing that. The Americans are our neighbors to the South – would you have a similar site for Canada’s contribution to Italy? I’m also curious to know if you are aware of Canadians living in Italy? The Italian Community in Montreal, Quebec where I came from is huge. It’s a wonderful tourist attractions with all their out door markets, espresso bars, pizzarias and all the hustle and bustle of the neighborhoods. The Italian Church is the focal point of the community and the Italian Community Center is where all the events take place (La Casa Italia). Every year when I return to Montreal we make sure to go to “Little Italy” for a gelata and walk around the Market Place. Ciao for now
Gloria
Italian person says
Good morning people! Buongiorno cari, it’s never late to realise what the hell of a place is Italy yet, uh?
Life in italy is even much worse than this. By the way Also italians get ripped off, even from public services, throughout approx. everything as you step out of your house. Since about 20 years or so, human rights have gone way well below zero.
read beppegrillo.it and you’ll find out much worse stuff.
I don’t get paid for this. Hope I am not spamming.
What Michael Moore talks about USA and Bush it’s just a grain of salt in the atlantic ocean compared to what happens in italy. truly.
Alex_Roe says
Hi Italian Person,
Yep, Italy is a complex place. One side wants to change the ways of old, whereas the other could not care less.
I do know Grillo’s site, and that he wants to enter politics too. There are lots of things which don’t work or work erratically in Italy. Did not know human rights were under any real threat – aside from the freedom of speech, that is.
You are not spamming – a true spammer would have placed a link to Grillo’s site!
No, Italy is not perfect, but then neither are the US and the UK. Actually, I would say that there is more desire for change in Italy than many give the country credit for – but mainly from the younger generations.
Thanks for commenting.
Best regards,
Alex
Gloria says
For tourists who stay over a month in Italy, a change in cuisine can be good for the soul… I was surprised how many Chinese restaurants are in Rome now, especially on Via Cavour near Serpenti.
Ciao,
G
ps: Vancouver has a very healthy Asian and Indian population therefore we have a wonderful selection of their cuisine.
Alex says
It will be added, Gloria. Even if I am not 100% convinced that people will come all the way to Italy to try an Indian restaurant! 😉
Having said that, I do eat in Indian restaurants here, and so do a few Italians I know too!
You never know, and choice is always a good thing!
Best,
Alex
PS I had no idea that Indian food was big in Vancouver! I live, I learn!
Gloria says
The restaurant Il Guru is just off Via Dei Serperti. Vancouver is well known for it’s wonderful Indian restaurants and I must say that this one was right up there with the best. The washroom is quite eclectic and worth the visit. The staff was great and so was the service. Cheers,
G
Gloria says
This article was in our newspaper – The Vancouver Sun – July 02, 2009:
ROME – Italian authorities have shut down a historic Roman restaurant days after it charged a Japanese couple nearly 700 euros ($987.70) for a seafood lunch to become an unwitting symbol of tourist rip-offs in the capital.
The tourists filed a fraud complaint with police after being surprised with a bill for 579.50 euros plus 115.50 euros in tip for downing pasta and lobster with wine and gelato at the Il Passetto restaurant just off the popular Piazza Navona square.
Health inspectors arrived within days to shut down the 149-year old restaurant — which has served stars ranging from Charlie Chaplin to Grace Kelly — citing hygiene reasons.
Restaurants in Rome’s centre have long been notorious for overcharging or serving overcooked pasta to the millions of tourists that flock here each year, and news of the pricey lunch sparked sharp criticism from consumer groups and city officials.
“As far as I’m concerned, this restaurant should never reopen again and operating licenses should be revoked for things of this nature,” Mayor Gianni Alemanno said, adding that he had ordered police to make surprise checks to uncover such fraud.
Consumer group Codacons said such rip-offs were frequent in the capital, while the head of an Italian business association also called for “maximum punishment” to be meted out.
But Il Passetto’s owner said he was surprised by the complaint, adding that it was the Japanese couple’s decision to leave the tip. Tipping is not obligatory in Italy, but is often demanded from foreigners anyway.
“They ordered 12 oysters, two kilos (kg) of lobsters, wine, 1.5 kg of seabass and even took photos with the waiters before leaving,” Franco Fioravanti told Rome’s Il Messaggero daily.
(Writing by Deepa Babington, editing by Paul Casciato)
© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun
Alex says
Hi Gloria,
Interesting that the story managed to make it as far as Canada. I wrote about it too: https://italychronicles.com/the-rip-off-restaurant-passetto-rome/
after having seen it in the Italian press.
While there are places in Rome out to fleece tourists, there are also plenty which are not. Indeed, I also wrote about some of the better places here: https://italychronicles.com/where-to-eat-in-rome-some-suggestions/
You need to do your homework a little before roaming Rome, and in this respect, the internet can help a lot.
Spread the word on the good places, and this will keep people out of the bad ones.
And nobody will sue anyone for saying nice things about the better places, whereas if you say a place is horrible on the internet, you risk have a brush with expensive Italian lawyers.
Best regards,
Alex
Gloria says
Hi Alex,
I’ll send your list of the better restaurants in Rome to my sister who will be there in September. When you think about it, the meal that these tourist had would be quite expensive, maybe not $1,000 but it would be pretty expensive. They ordered 12 oysters, 2 kg of lobsters, 1.5 kg seabass and wine. I don’t know where they put it all but regardless, these are expensive menu items. Speaking of which, did they not read the menu and view the prices? I agree with you that it would be nice to recommend the good restaurants rather than only point out the bads ones so, having said that, here is the one I would highly recommend in Rome: Il Guru (Il Cuore della cucina Indiana) Via Cimarra – Roma
Ciao
Alex says
Hi again, Gloria,
Hope your sister finds the places interesting, and good value too.
And yes, you are right. The Japanese couple do appear to have eaten quite a lot, but unless they went OTT on the wine, the bill was on the very high side of normal, and the Roman police seemed to have agreed with them, so the bill must have been excessive.
Interestingly, the case is attracting some attention in Italy, and not only in the international press. The incidents where tourists are ripped off are comparatively rare when one considers the number of visitors – which was around 26 million in 2007.
The restaurant scandal also appears to have resurrected tales of gangs of taxi drivers out to con the tourists too. One of the more common tricks is for a taxi driver who has taken someone for a ride from Rome airport to the centre and asked €90 for the privilege, pretend that the €100 note offered by the holiday maker was only €10. Many unsuspecting tourists then hand over another €100, and the taxi driver drives of into the distance with a conceited smile on his nasty little face.
Warn your sister about this one, or better still, have her check out this: http://wheninrometours.com/Car-and-Bus-Service/Airport-Transfers.html
Best,
Alex
Alex says
And thanks for the restaurant tip too Gloria – I’ll add it to the Rome restaurant post.
Cheers,
Alex
Blogmasterpg says
Oh my God, my heart cries to ear these things. I’m an italian logger, I live in Pergia, a little town with an economy based on tourism and university 8 for foreigners and for Italians). The tourism in Umbria, is similar in Tuscany, Marche, Emilia romagna, big part of campania, Calabria, sardinia and Sicily..
Rome is a particular case. Rome, in these years is a very ‘case study’. The big part of workers is in politics. The politics in Italy has more than 1,000,000 persons and the most part of them are in Rome, of course. in Rome there are ‘ministers, where many people enter to work at 9,00 starts them pc and play with Facebook,.. it’s scientific: you can see the internet data traffic.
Rome in 2010 is still the Rome of 1100 a.C…. Only a Pope (Now i don’t remember his name) in 1200 (The same Pope helps Saint Francis to open his order) make order in Rome. Corruption and nepotism was the laws. Now is the same. The Rome’s citizens are for 50% friends or parents of man that works in politics industry. The corruption in all levels af society makes a sort of bad links on the peoples. why i must work if all the world doesn’t work and are paid? THAT’S THE QUESTION ALL DAYS THE workers you meets in the last months made to himself; and when these peoples has these thoughts, of course, their work is very bad and the service they offers is very very low…
Italy is a sort of museum and Rome is only a little part of it; has thousands of museums, Art-Churches, mountains to make ski and sea to swim and beach.. Rome is very more easy to see in internet, in a site of 3D. I’m 5-6 years don’t go to Rome for the reasons you wrote, but when I don’t work, with my scooter I go around my region, Umbria. or even in Tuscany to visit and discovered hundreds of fantastic places, Towns with thousand years of history…
That’s The reality in Italy, now; we can only to hope these things will changes. I make very efforts with my blogs to insert in the minds of all Italians we has the most reach country 8 odf arts) in the world, but only 10-20% of Italians understand that one…..!!!
Gil says
We haven’t been to Rome in over ten years and our ‘Italian’ daughter, she was studying in Firenze for the year, was our tour guide. Italy was still on the Lira and I didn’t really feel cheated. We haven’t been Rome except for maybe two days but have spent plenty of time in Umbria and Campania since 1998. Except for the occasional taxi ride I never felt cheated and have always felt that I was treated with respect!
Judith in Umbria says
Really, I do not see the point in going to any place in Italy and not eating the food. There are so many places to check on reviews, menus and prices that it’s mind boggling. Start with Slow Travel, where reviews are by personal travelers. They’ll tell you who is a rip off and who cooks.
Rome is an easy day trip for me and the shopping is great. I eat in restaurants and I know them for what they are. I order what I want, at the prices I am willing to pay. I am not pressured to order too much, I add the bill myself to check, I do NOT tip, and I count my change. Just like an Italian. I do sometimes go to places tourists like, because we like them, too. I often eat the antipasto buffet for lunch at Carbonara at Campo dei Fiori. There are lots of tourists there, but also Italian ladies who lunch– and me. I do not order bunches of courses, I drink the house wine and I love the buffet, the atmosphere, the passing kids singing for money, sometimes talking to the neighbors– that’s a lot for about 17 euro.
Gloria Bramucci says
Hi Judith, You may want to read the previous blogs because we are not talking about Italy we are talking about Rome. To have a self-catering rental does not mean one doesn’t eat out at all, it just gives you more choices. You can chose to eat breakfast and diner in and eat lunch at a restaurant. We were in Italy from April 22nd to May 27 this year and there is no way we could eat out every single day. Part of the experience we enjoy is to go to the market places and buy fresh produce and mingle with the locals. We had wonderful butchers in Praiano who would cut us these beautiful pork chops and add a rosemary sprig as they wrapped the meat. We find this a much more pleasant vacation than simply depending on restaurants. The grocers would actually ask us what our plans were for the tomatoes we purchased and then suggest to season it their way. I may be mistaken but It seems that you actually live in Italy. Very different scenario than coming in from the cold. I have read many web-sites such as Slo Travel and Trip Advisor but we are not merely talking about the restaurants in Rome we are also talking about attitude. (ps: we have always ordered the house wine-do not tip-check our bill-count our change, common practice)
Gloria Bramucci says
The City of Rome has always been referred to as the city of love and, is considered a city with the finest restaurants and, of course, the most incredible historical sites.
I have had the pleasure and the privilege to visit Rome 5 times in the past 30 years. This will be my last. One can understand that with time there is change but it is usually for the better. It is sad to say that this is not the case for Rome.
Rather than speak of specifics, I will speak of the overall situation. The historical sites are now mostly fenced in and what used to be free such as walking around the forum, you must now pay an entrance fee. Then you have sites like la Villa D’Adriana (Hadrian’s Villa) which has a 10 euro entrance fee but does not indicate that only ½ the site is open for viewing.
As far as restaurants and menus are concerned, it is time that Rome ‘gets with the program’. People do not eat a 3 course meal for lunch AND a 3 course meal for dinner. Italians don’t eat that way so why is it imposed on the tourists. Finding a simple salad for lunch is next to impossible. It was out of sheer determination that we succeeded to find a nice tuna fish salad with mixed vegetables. Restaurants offer pasta and pizza everywhere that’s fine and dandy but no one eats pasta and pizza daily! Many menus indicate ‘NO SHARING’ on the front. We are now being told, not only what to eat but how to eat. A tourist must find where the Italians dine in order to eat well. There is, what seems to be, a misconception that tourists have no taste buds so all that they need to do is have a waiter lure you into their restaurant which serves a ‘tourist menu’ at an exorbitant price and serve over-steamed vegetables with an overcooked piece of veal layered with grizzle. They get their 44euros, you’ve been had and they don’t care if they never see you again because there are enough tourists for them to make a living.
The coperto or ‘cover charge’ for simply sitting down is something everyone knows about and has reluctantly accepted BUT now it has been brought to a fine art form. The little catering van who sells hamburger, fries, hotdogs, and sodas has a price menu board indicating 2 euros more PER item for sitting down. If you select 3 items such as hamburger, fries and a coke you have just paid 6 euros for the incredible privilege of sitting down. At least the restaurant will add one cover charge to your bill.
Then there is the coffee shop (pasticceria) who will charge you 1 euro for sitting on a bar stool at the counter inside the shop or 2 euros for sitting outside. I wondered if they charged 2 euros for sitting inside when it rains…
Now, let’s talk about the ‘attitude’ that has become prevalent in Rome. For some strange reason the people who work in the tourist industry, let it be ticket agent at a museum, the store clerk and let’s not forget the tourist information agent, all have developed an obvious dislike to ANY tourist. The body language is incredibly obvious as is the tone of the voice and last but not least the out and out rudeness. There is absolutely no effort made in hiding their hostility. If you ask a simple question such as where the bus stop is and you have the audacity in asking them to repeat their reply, the eyes flare up as they point somewhere in mid-air and raising their voices a few decibels. There is an assumption by the tourist information office that the minute you walk into their office, you have left your brains at the hotel. They look at who just opened the door, wait impatiently for the inane question you are about to ask and then they reply without looking up at you and do their best to mutter the reply as quickly as possible.
Once they realized we can speak Italian adequately the entire demeanor changes. We are now like long lost friends and they even throw in some extra information which may be useful. Being of Italian descent and having always been proud of my heritage, I found this behavior very painful and shameful to watch. We were in Italy for 5 weeks, from the Amalfi Coast to the Gargano Peninsula and never encountered anyone being rude or making us feel unwanted as we did in Rome. Tourists will eventually tire of being treated badly and being gauged for every cup of coffee or meal. Paris suffered a huge set-back in the mid 70’s and lost a lot of tourism. It took years to recuperate. You would think that a lesson would be learned from what happened to their tourist industry.
Alex says
Oh dear, Gloria,
Sounds as though you came face to face with the darker side of Italian customer service! Such haughtiness is not that uncommon. I came across it when I first arrived in Milan many moons ago. Either things have become better in Milan, or I am simply used to it. I don’t really know Rome, but it is moving further south and the farther south you go in Italy, the more likely it is that you will come across an Italian with an aversion to work!
As for being ‘lured’ into restaurants, this I have heard about – and such places are to be avoided, as you appear to have discovered. And the famous coperto. It can be taken to extremes, but if it’s any consolation, sitting down in many bars in Italy, but not all, costs more – and Italians pay extra too. I think the theory is that you have to pay for the waiter.
Like many tourist areas, and not only in Italy, there are plenty of people looking to rip off tourists. It’s a good idea to do some research beforehand, and/or take a good guide book with you. This can make a big difference.
Then there is the odd mentality which pervades some tourist areas of Italy. This is possibly down to Italians simply not understanding why a tourist should actually want to visit a place which to them is nothing more than the average town in which they grew up.
Knowing the language does help, and there are areas of Italy where tourists are made very welcome.
Oddly enough, I sometimes get the impression Italy seems to prefer to promote tourism within Italy to its own people, and does not really want to encourage foreigners to come here!
Madness, I know, but then this is Italy, and it does do things which people from outside of the country would find to be normal and logical. Nobody really knows why this is, not even the Italians themselves.
Try heading for the northern mountains next time you come to Italy – Trentino and the like, and you might find things a little better. Even if English friends of mine came across the haughtiness you experienced in Cortina.
All the best,
Alex
Gloria Bramucci says
Thank you Alex, I appreciate your insight. We have traveled all over Umbria and Toscany and as far north as Aosta and met wonderful people along the way, ate well and visited wonderful towns. This was also the case in Ostuni, Salerno and all over the Amalfi Coast. I am not ready to give up on Italy yet. What saddens me the most is that Rome is killing one of their most lucrative industry, tourism. People will simply stop going and that would be terrible. Let’s face it, we were there at the very beginning of the season, what will they be like in September!! I did do quite a bit of research prior to our arrival but you do let your guards down and get caught up with the moment and that’s when they get you!!!
Ciao, Gloria
Alex says
Sounds, from your experiences, Gloria, as though Rome was really the only place which is not up to scratch.
Trouble is that Rome is the gateway to Italy for many, and the danger is that someone goes to Rome, is ripped off, and thinks the rest of Italy will be the same. Italy thus loses tourism business. This would be a shame, because, as you and I both know, there is much more to Italy than just Rome.
Good to hear that you have been treated much better in other parts of Italy.
“I did do quite a bit of research prior to our arrival but you do let your guards down and get caught up with the moment and that’s when they get you!!!” – Yes, this does happen.
Let’s hope others come across this conversation and that it makes them more wary – and, more to the point, helps them understand that by no means all of Italy is the same as Rome. Italy is a fabulous country for tourism, and not half a bad place to live in either.
This will come across as patronising, although it’s not meant to be, from my experience, the vast majority of Italians are lovely people.
Hope you come back to Italy.
Best,
Alex
Gloria Bramucci says
Hi Alex,
As a tourist you do expect to be taken advantage of once in a while. It would be naive to not expect it. It’s all in the delivery. These instances make for great diner conversations. In Venice back in 2003 we decided to have a cappuccino at San Marco’s Square. It was a lovely cup of coffee with little swirls through the foamed milk. A nice crystal pitcher of water with ice on a silver tray and 2 crystal glasses were placed on our table whilst listening to an orchestra serenading us. I’m sure you see where I’m going with this: 25 Euro’s later which was equivalent to $38 Canadian Dollars, we walked away knowing we’d been had and knowing fully well, we deserved it. I have also been given an Italian menu at this one trattoria and asked if they had an English menu for my girlfriend. They provided her with the English menu and I kept the Italian one and the prices were higher on the English menu. When I brought this to the owner’s attention he laughed at being caught and charged us the Italian rate. I can see the humour in that. It has to do with attitude. My sister will be in Italy for the month of September and will be in Rome for a few days at the end of her trip. She has been warned and is looking for a self-catering apartment rather than put up with restaurants etc. Hopefully the grocers will be friendlier and more honest…
Kitty says
Dear Gloria,
I am HONG KONG Chinese, my family and I just came back from Rome on 31 July 09.
I totally agree with you that people in Rome are not friendly , as you said : “If you ask a simple question such as where the bus stop is and you have the audacity in asking them to repeat their reply, the eyes flare up as they point somewhere in mid-air and raising their voices a few decibels.” – t his is what we have encountered in Rome.
We met some very nice Italian in Florence, not in Rome.
This is my 2nd time visiting Rome, and I’m not going back any more though the Italian in Rome will not care. Hong Kong is a small city, our customer service is good and we treasure every tourists who come to visit us.
Best regards,
Kitty
Gloria says
Hi Kitty,
In the early 70’s I saw the same thing happen in Paris and I did not return for 20 years. Now, I absolutely love Paris. They have turned their tourism industry around and we’ve had nothing but positive encounters. I am still hoping the same will happen with Rome. Actually, I truly believe that we will see a change in the next decade. I’ve been to Hong Kong a few times and you are right. Everyone takes good care of their tourists. I was fortunate enough to be there over Christmas and it was magical!!!
Kitty says
Hi Gloria,
It is great that you’ve been to Hong Kong before and hope you will come back later!!
Cheers!!
Kitty
james says
Dear Kitty,
We stopped in Hong Kong on the way to Europe in May. I must say that Hong Kong was the least friendly city we encountered in our round-the-world trip. The reputations of Paris and New York are not deserved; they were friendly cities compared to Hong Kong. We will choose to go to Bangkok or Singapore if we go to Europe from our home in Australia again
James
Alex Roe says
Sorry to hear that Jack – but not all that surprised, alas.
Still, at least you won’t fall victim to the Pisa traffic cameras – possibly!!
Cheers,
Alex
Jack from eyeflare travel tips says
Me and my wife have stopped going to Italy already. Overpriced and mostly pretty low rent in comparison to many other destinations. I think when the Euro came in the prices just shot up too much.