At the end of the day, despite bickering politicians and dodgy organisation, life in Italy is not that bad, or wasn’t once – see the updates at the bottom of this post and remember that this piece was written in 2009.
Certainly up here in Milan things work. Life in Italy is a bit bumpy at times and things could be better organised, but if you get ill, you get treated – for free. Children do get an education, almost for free, and the streets of Italy, with one or two exceptions, are not exactly violent – just ask one or two Americans for some examples of really rough streets.
Years of creative accounting have left many Italians with decent stashes in the bank, and even today Italians seem to be able to buy houses with quite short term mortgages, if they bother with a mortgage at all. Said houses will be filled with spanking new furniture, but only after many thousands of Euros have been spent on giving the new pad a ground-up make-over. Quite the opposite from the UK, for example -where 100% mortgages have been on the scene for many years. And many people do their houses up bits at a time – not in one go, as in Italy.
There is more to demonstrate that life in Italy is not a huge torture.
Italians are Wealthy
Many Italians have the cash to enable them to take around a month off in August. Most have modern cars, and can afford the exorbitant car insurance. Then there are the scooters, Ducatis and boats. Mobile phones are everywhere, people wear decent clothes, go out, and eat and drink well. Italians decorate themselves with tattoos, have nice haircuts, enhance themselves with cosmetic surgery, and can afford sky-high dentists bills too. Many can afford Sky pay TV. Italians in the nations bigger cities have nannies for their kids and carers for their elderly parents.
To put the icing on the cake, the nation has a climate which really does keep life in Italy bearable.
Years ago when I arrived in Italy I was extremely surprised at the wealth here. I believed the UK was a rich country, until I came to Italy, that is. Now the UK is just about on a par with Italy – but much of the wealth is supported by credit, whereas Italians have an aversion to credit. You still cannot get UK or US style ‘pay in dribs and drabs’ credit cards that easily here. In the UK, the things grow on trees.
The ease with which credit can be had indicates low disposable income levels, or, in other words, poverty. You have to jump through hoops to get credit in Italy.
Laura’s Kiss of Death
Laura Kiss, who recently wrote a provocatively entitled ‘Freedom of the Press!‘ article on the Huffington Post, paints a bleak picture of the Living Museum. Kiss, when not posting to Huffington, also writes for the Italian newspaper which Berlusconi’s loves to hate – La Repubblica.
I don’t agree with all of her observations, and think some are inaccurate:
“…nothing works in the country…”
Not true. Many things do work, but many of these things do not work too well, or somewhat intermittently. I think saying that ‘nothing works’ is a little on the extreme side.
And then there was this claim:
“…the quality of living is worst and much more expensive than in any other western country.”
The quality of life in Italy is not worse than in any other western country, and, with the exception of some Italian cities, Italy is not ‘much‘ more expensive than any other western country – have a look here: International Cost of Living Comparison – Global Trends in 2009.
Yes, Italy does have its problems, but things have not yet become so bad as to have Italians marching en masse to Rome in protest and surrounding the Italian houses of parliament demanding change. Revolution does not seem to be in the air. Why? Because many, many, Italians are all right Jack – and Berlusconi knows this, as does an Italian friend of mine, who also made the same point.
Kiss also states:
“Most of the Italians are also very immature and childish and still wait for Santa Klaus to come and bring the gift of freedom.”
No, not true. Many Italians already think they are pretty free. Oh Italians love to complain about Italy, but very few are prepared to turn all the words into actions – why? Because their lives are not bad.
At the moment Berlusconi is having a go at riling the European Parliament. He may be aiming to detach Italy from the European community so he can exert his will on Italy and be unhindered by meddling Eurocrats. But even this will not provoke Italians to take to the streets in protest. Why?
Because life in Italy is not that bad.
One last point: Tax evasion may not be such a bad thing in nations, like Italy, where governments don’t do a wonderful job. It means people have money to spend in difficult times (often caused by political mismanagement), and consumer spending, at the end of the day, is what keeps economies ticking over.
UPDATE: October 2013 – Unfortunately, since this article was written, Italy has been heading downhill fast. Life in Italy today, late 2013, is much more uncertain than it once was, and even some expats are now leaving owing to the difficult work situation. The once dolce vita – sweet life – is turning bitter, alas.
UPDATE: February 2015 – The situation in Italy has not improved much at all since October 2013. Around 85,000 businesses and one million jobs have been ‘killed’ by the economic crisis and Italy’s leaders have yet to do much to attempt to turn Italy’s economy around.
Young educated Italians have worked out that there’s not much to keep them in Italy aside from poorly paid jobs with very little future and so they are leaving Italy in droves. Life in Italy for these people has definitely taken a turn for the worse.
One aspect of life in Italy does remain the same though: Italians have not yet taken to the streets to protest against how badly their nation is being run – quite probably because few understand just how poorly run most aspects of Italy are. Only the nation’s health system works though it may not work for much longer.
Another mini-update on life in Italy will be added in the future.
Gianni says
Well… I’m curious about where you live. I live in the North, in one of the richest area with lower unemployment. Yet the situation for us (young people) is even worse than it is in Greece. I am 28 years and i’m unemployed. I have sent about 20 applications and cv daily, for about 4 months, to all parts of Italy: no response. I have 2 degrees with top mark (110/110) and previous work experience (mainly internship, paid or not). I have some money saved, but finishing soon. Everything I have has been paid by my parents. I have no car, no motorcycle, no home. I live in a small flat rented. The rent is paid by my family. I just pay my own expenditures and utilities, but money is about to finish. Soon i will move back to my parents house, that is not big. They have paid with mortgages in about 20 years. All my friends are graduated: half of them migrated abroad (1 france, 2 switzerland, 1 germany, 1 uk) the other half is unemployed or work. They earn about 800 euro monthly. They all live with their parents. None is married, 1 has a child (but he is abroad). So… You judge it as a good situation? In UK you live worse? i imagine you should be very poor and starving…
Lorenzo says
Hello – I am Italian living in Rome. Yes, life in Italy is getting difficult, but do not forget that years in Italy turn into a unrepeatable adventure of personal cultural and professional growth. Do you still live in Milan?
Thanks!
Emanuele Manco says
I’ve been living in Southern Italy for about 15 years and your post made me giggle. I was grown up in Switzerland where you can consider it pretty much the opposite of Italy: clean, ordered, quiet, working. Passing the border will actually show you the dramatic difference.
The simplest tasks like travelling in the traffic hustle or waiting in queue for paying a simple bill requires exceptional patience and a lot of time in Italy. When Italians say nothing works, it’s true. We tend to speak bad about our land not because it sucks, it’s a rare beauty itself. A pity it’s populated by a lot lazy assholes!
It’s quite easy to spot rotten, dead dogs on the street borders while you need to avoid humongous potholes or you’ll wreck your car. People are noisy all the time. Quarrels with the neighbors are everyday business. If you live here all year, you’ll feel like living with constant anxiety for pretty much everything. Our property in the countryside got robbed several times and they lit even a fire once. They stole even the high voltage cables and left us without electricity.
Of course back in the days when we spent just our holidays here, everything was cool and nice. But, trust me, Italy is just good for that. Living in Italy is a nightmare.
I closed my own company after 10 years, since I couldn’t afford to pay all the huge amount of taxes which summed together come close to 70% of the income. Now you wonder why nobody pays taxes here?! They’re ridiculous. You need to pay an accountant for managing all the papers and you even need to pay money you still didn’t earn yet! It’s an upside down country, let me tell you that.
I’ve spend a week in London, which isn’t the happiest place on earth and I sympathize with all the grey faces busy in their rat race. When comparing it to a sunny place, with good food and stunning women there’s no contest. As long you got the money and don’t have to deal with Italian peasants.
Now I’m looking for a place to escape this forsaken land as I can’t take it anymore.
Alex Roe says
Hi Emanuele,
Yes, I agree with most of what you say and hear that south Italy is worse than the north. And yes, the tax system in Italy is simply ridiculous. Tax levels are far too high (and do cause companies to shut down or move) and the tax system itself is far too complex. Supposedly this is something Mr Renzi is to examine but I wouldn’t place hopes too high.
I know that Italians don’t really understand just how bad Italy can be until they spend some time in other nations – you fall into that category. Switzerland demonstrates that things can be done properly whereas Italy shows they cannot!
On the other hand, if, as you say, you have money, then Italy can be a nice place to live – provided you don’t have to work here and can secure your property against thieves (your earnings will be taken by another bunch of thieves – elected ones! – which is another reason not to work or do business here).
Big businesses seems to do OK in Italy but they have the resources to manage all of Italy’s idiosyncrasies which is something us mere mortals have not.
Will the situation ever change? No, I seriously doubt it. If anything, it’ll probably get even worse. Then again, I could be wrong and hope I am!
Good luck with your escape and Italians who do flee tend to do very well in nations which function. Italians would do well in Italy, if Italy functioned. But it does not.
Best,
Alex
Connie says
We literally just came back from a trip to Italy (left Europe on 03/28/2015) and I want to comment on the following:
We stayed in apartment in Milan and there were roughly 200 stairs we had to climb every time we came back to the apartment due to the lack of a “lift” (or elevator). I have literally NO idea how elderly people living on upper floors of “lift-free” apartments handle the daily climb.
Second, we visited Naples, Pompeii, and Rome. Of the four places we visited (including Milan) ONLY Rome seemed “normal”. And by “normal” I mean we didn’t feel an overall sense of shadiness that had been quite obvious in Milan, Naples and even Pompeii.
First of all, Naples immediately reminded us of Tijuana, Mexico. If you’ve ever been to Tijuana – either by foot or by car – (we went by foot) – then you know exactly what I mean. If you’ve never been to Tijuana, Mexico or Naples, Italy then I’ll spell it out for you – – there’s an overall sense of danger. A sense of you aren’t totally safe. Everyone looks suspect to crime and nothing seems settled and safe…you definitely AREN’T in a comfy yoga class in the Midwest USA.
Then there are Gypsy families who invade the trains from Naples to Pompeii…they include small, cute children with minimal talent but whose financial circumstance plays on American heartstrings. I gave 10 euro to a small, cute little boy who played the drum during one of these “invasions”. He actually played the drum pretty damn good and I won’t be surprised if I see that kid pop up in some major band down the road.
If you travel by metro rail or the fast trains (like Italo) you can expect to see LOADS and TONS of graffiti! I mean these kids/people make graffiti their primary JOB! And it’s really, really good graffiti, too! There’s some talented (and, sadly, unrecognized) artists in Italy!
My overall impression of Italy? Shady areas in Milan, Pompeii and most definitely Naples. Rome seemed safe, but that may have been a “smoke screen” due to the high number of tourists. I’ve no idea of what that city is really like…especially at night.
A general sense of poverty. An overall sense of ruin and decay admits the grand splendor of days gone by. The past captured in daguerreotype,..in color…in the present. And yet always the grasping of hands of the locals who seem to need more.
Would I visit Italy again? Yes. Yes, in a heartbeat, yes I would! Why, you ask, if I think so many popular areas are so “shady” would I go back again? The answer is simple – – because we were NOT accosted, we were NOT confronted or abused….it was only a SENSE of danger.
Italy is lovely and even the most amateur photographer will find him or herself snapping incredible photos of unparalleled history. Proceed with some caution but thoroughly enjoy your travels!
lud says
sorry but I’n italian but I’ve never met a person who buys a house without mortgage and takes the full month of august off for holiday. usually mortgages last for 30-40 years in Italy. for example you by a small apartment (not a house, only very rich people live in houses) at 30 and finish to pay it at 70.It’s very common but now banks don’t allow you anymore to take mortgages in many cases. Usually people take one week off for holidays, but many people can’t afford it. I’m sure there are many people like the ones you described in your article but it’s not the norm. Why do you want to show an Italy and italians who don’t exists? I struggle to pay my rent and utilities, so many people here.
Alex Roe says
Note the date of this post, Lud – it was written in 2009 slightly before the crisis really took hold. Mortgages have become longer for some. I disagree that only very rich people live in houses – depends where you live in Italy. In Milan, it is possible to live in a house though usually only in the suburbs. I have a friend who lives in a house near Milan and she is not very rich! Indeed, she is not rich at all – she is simply part of a family with two regular incomes.
I also know quite a number of Italians who take much longer than a single week off in August – often because their companies shut down. Fewer people can afford long holidays nowadays – another effect of the crisis and changing habits. However, I live in Milan and the crisis is not quite as acute here even if there are signs things are not right.
Nope, no intention to show an Italy which does not exist but when I first arrived here in Italy – in the north – I was extremely surprised by the level of wealth as were other non-Italians I knew. Friends who travelled to Italy’s south did not notice extreme differences in wealth levels either. I could not understand how Italians could afford their high standards of living.
Now, in 2014, things are starting to change and Italians are not as wealthy as they once were. I know that more and more Italians are now struggling. Prices are going up in Italy, jobs are not stable and are very hard to find.
To cut a long story short – Italy is changing, but not for the better, alas.
Where are you from in Italy?
Cheers,
Alex
Italian swede says
Alex, I understand why you thought that back then italians were “wealthy”.
All italians do is show off. If not by bank credit, most get ther “wealth” with family help and various corrupted means.
It s not correc to say that italians are wealthy and more than the british. They simply are arrogant children who like to show off, they think nothing is better than that. And they’re constantly tense and think only of impressing the Joneses. You really should have pitied them since the beginning.
And their sense of style really does suck. They care a lot about style, but most of them don’t have taste. It’s not enough to care or to have money to buy clothes. One either has taste or doesn’t. I find italians’ style absolutely laughable and tasteless with rare exceptions. And when it works, I personally dislike the italian style.
I’m half italian, half swedish and lived in Italy most of my life. Typing this comment on this old article in case someone ends up there, as I did by googling “Italy sucks”. One of the very first Google results was this article. May people all over Europe know that Italy truly is bad (yes, as you say, today it’s much worse than it used to be, but it really wasn’t that good to begin with) and most of all, that italians were and still are “the most ignorant middle class of Europe” as Orson Welles said.
He also said that “Italy counts 50 million actors, the worst of which are those on the stage”.
I hink you should be lucky you’re british and stick to the much higher british standards of everything – primarely, civil, intellectual and cultural. The only good thing Italy has is THE PAST. It’s a nation stuck in the past that offered nothing since the Reinassance. And even then it ws just a few noteworthy individuals – “italians” in general have always been some of the most despicable people with some of the worst characer traits. They just don’t care about quality and standards and true beauty – they’re philistines who think luxury is the best life has to offer. And in the vast majority of cases they fail at achieving the luxurious life their materialistic, basic unimaginative minds want so much.
Ana says
Hi Everyone,
I was just wondering if anyone had information or links to any organizations in Milan, Italy that help with feeding the homeless or poor people that can’t afford to eat. Any names of churches or soup kitchens? Any information or links directing would be appreciated! thank you!
Rodrigo says
Interesting article. I have a question and if anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated. I am a 19 year old Italian citizen, I have saved up enough money to live in Italy for three months. I want to move to Milan. Do you think I’ll be able to find a job over there in this economy? I speak some Italian, English, and Portuguese. Thank you!
Alex Roe says
Hi Rodrigo,
You might be able to find work for 3 months, but it will depend what you want to do. Being able to speak Italian well will help. “Some Italian” may not be good enough. Short term work may be a little easier to find than longer term jobs, but the job market is not easy. Try searching online to see what’s around before you land here.
Others may offer advice too.
Best,
Alex
Marco says
I am italian, 34 y.o., and since i was born i live in the same house in Padova, near Venice. I am not a traveller or an expat as many of you. My dad worked hard for all his life, and we had no relevant problems, so today we can live well, the so called middle class. Dad got our property with a large garden from his father, then he built our house step by step when he was young, i still have memories and old photoes. He got married with my mother when he was 27 and in ’70s and ’80s their project was possible. Today me, 7 years older, i would do the same thing, but honestly i can’t: the cost of life is higher, and what i earn is lower. Also, the future in this country is uncertain, the work is going worse year after year, many companies are closing in Veneto, few are opening and most of them are the so called “Popolo delle partite IVA” translating they are people who open a VAT but they are self employers, they are not structured companies, and their business is very small (i am one of them).
We have recession, and more than this: nothing seems relevant that could solve this bad trend, we are living thanks to the past, and we are falling apart, wasting a lot of what we have and what we are. You are asking “why italians got cars? where do the money come from?” I can reply immediately: FROM THE PAST! And no, we are not all in the black market, we are not mobsters either, that is a wrong prejudice made by Hollywood, guys… reality is very different.
Our society, our families, our companies, our banks, we all worked saving money, making houses for everybody, making an intricated web of “artigiani”, small enterprises, creative labs (so this is the answer to why you see many excellent brands around the world, on many products), we grew up slowly making good things, even with real problems of corruption, bureaucrats, nepotism, insane taxation, and diversity from region to region. We were little smart heroes, i am sure about this!
Our “cousins” from USA, Britain and north Europe, were more oriented to big companies, corporations, the “capital” and the “risk”, deep inside the rules of “neo liberalism”, banks first of all.
So, here is the difference: italians were concrete people, saving money like little ants, generation after generation. Debts? Credit? Speculation? NO WAY… we buy if we can afford it, this was our culture! (and still it is mine).
Our public debt you say? well, in origin it was internal debt, the “BOT” and “CCT”… every family got those assets, even mine! It was the State for the State! this was not a bad thing, we could manage it, but then european banks buyed this debt, and today we have more than 50% external debt, and that is very bad, in fact this expose us to the decisions of european lobbies, they decide for our internal politics, our families, our people, with the so called austerity and such things (whoever we vote DO NOT MAKE DECISIONS, they are powerless actors in a pathetic show on TV, with that “Berlusconi’s public enemy commedy”, the left and right fake wars, communism and all sort of crappy distractions).
Today things are changed, and complicated in a bad way, now with the EU we are defined PIIGS, and we are in troubles, and most people are not aware of this, and this is unfair! EU decides the economic parameters that the lobbists want, they etablish if a State is good or bad according what they want see! These nice and clean white collars are robbing our past and killing or future, the global market swallowed our brilliant micro companies, the white collars are covering their debts made of CDS and toxic finance with our “real value”, made with sweat and blood of million of innocent people, workers, like my father. People know nothing about the filthy tricks these criminals are doing with finance “weapons of mass destruction”, but something happened, the emblematic Lehman Brother’s disaster… so we understood, little maybe, but we understood that something is wrong. In few years our society blew up without knowing why, people are now surprised without a job, without a pension, angry and powerless.
I am still lucky, many others are in worse conditions than me. I can live in my father’s house, working and trying to save money for my future, i want keep my dreams, my dignity, with a slow process, not easy. I don’t follow fashion, i don’t travel, i don’t spend a huge amount of euros for entertainments, and this myth of “bella figura” or “bella presenza” is too much generalized: it is of course a valid way to get attention, to make a good first impression at work, or to find a mate in a club. But it is just appearance, and we know that, for us this is just “normality”… not sure about foreigners.
Me and many other italians are living with quality things without showing too much, and not caring about brands, we prefere a personal choice. Perhaps who is not sure about his “persona”, do exagerate with his equipment hoping to get a chance, just my opinion.
The main problem that i have for the next future: i am not sure about what to start, and where, even if i really want to stay in Italy. We are in a bad moment for any relevant economic decision. I am single, getting older, i am not satisfied, i don’t waste my savings and that’s all. I have good health, i am not ugly or ignorant or poor, i know enough english to fly away, and someone could say that i can do everything, but it is not that easy.
I work in IT as freelance, i am a very indipendent guy, but this is not enough to start a life by myself today, the market is worse than 4-5 years ago. Without help from my family, or without trust from the banks, self employers like me can’t do very much, there is no “american dream” in 2013.
If i leave my home i must face a lot of problems: first i should stop my job, wasting my efforts of a life, i end accepting a harder and dumber work, subordinate to someone else, just to make money and to have trust from a bank for the mortage (and this is not sure). Every month 90% (or more) of my earned money would vanish for the apartment and life. Definitely i can’t sell my car, as it is required in Italy, we run a lot to do our tasks, only who lives in big cities can manage by feet.
So, let’s say i am in this small, exphensive room, perhaps with other people making noise nearby, with less comfort than my standard. After some years, i am more disappointed and poor, i saved no money, i lost what i saved. I have the bank on my back (for 40 years? the rest of my life?), i can’t leave my hated job, i can’t stay without a job, but, of course, i left my parents.
Can someone explain me what’s the point?
Who calls italians “Mama boys” are ignoring a lot of facts around our existence. I prefere to be a bit embarassed at my father’s home. It is really for my sake and that is not big deal after all, it requires just patience for a better plan. Italy must change, perhaps with violence, i don’t know. If we stay as we are there is no future: young generations are not working, many are “precari” so they do not learn a very good profession. This way there will be problems for general quality of the society, and future pensions, also the middle class is loosing their wealth, shifting under the line of poverty.
We are living on our past and that is bad, with the actual condition we can’t keep up with all the good things we did, we can’t improve ourselves. We are selling all our brands to foreingners, and we are not making new ones, who is the new Armani? who is the new Gucci? No one.
I heard we are selling Telecom to Spain (shame, criminals). What is next? Trenitalia? Poste? Where are we going selling everything? Do we sit on an italian rock paying a chinese to do that?
I really hope in something decisive, this must stop.
Alex Roe says
Thanks for all that Marco.
The answer, at least on paper, is simple – Italians need to take control of what is supposed to be a republic. This is really happening with the exception of the 5 Star Movement. Italy needs other political movements to replace the ones which obviously have no idea whatsoever how to run Italy and are far to weak (and have no idea how to anyway) to fight external intervention/influence.
Don’t hope for something decisive – make it happen. And yes, it’s very sad to see no new Armani’s on the horizon, even if there is one – Bruno Cucinelli, but there should be more, I agree. And if you dig a bit, you will find there are other emerging Italian brands: Technogym and Blackshape, are examples.
If Italy sorts out its political leadership, it’ll be fine – but that is not happening. The same people who have demonstrated they cannot run Italy are still there and, surprise, surprise, not – Italy is getting nowhere.
There’s hope alone for now, but there is still some hope.
Italy can pick itself up – if it wants to.
Cheers,
Alex
christian says
Italy can pick it self up if it wants to.
problem is they dont want too.
they cant be bother.
they dont know how to
they want to always go against.
fact is ,this country is going to the dogs
and its not getting better.its getting
worse…
sure,its italy…its amazing..etc
fact is,it should be a lot better
than it is…
where does all the money go???
not to the state…but into a few
pockets…
Italian swede says
“This is really happening with the exception of the 5 Star Movement. Italy needs other political movements to replace the ones which obviously have no idea whatsoever how to run Italy”
If I understand correctly, you mean that the old left and rights are NOT adequate, and the only hope is the 5 Star movement. It’s also the only party with participants who are below 60 years old…
Unfortunately, Italy is an OLD minded nation endowed with an OLD, backwards mentality that infects all areas of life. A lot of young people are old in mind as well.
I live in the south where you get the worst of the worst. It’s the far west here. NOTHING works as it should. The most basic and banal things are made extremely difficult my people on purpose, I speculate because they truly are masochistic and mentally ill or at least incredibly stupid and willfully ignorant. The GENERAL mentality is such. The north of course is not that bad, but still backwards in approach compared to northern europe.
Italy is an old backwards nation that is uninspiring, tiring, boring and insulting to a modern northern european mind. It leaves me with a constant sweet-sour taste in my mouth. The only things making Italy tolerable are the food and the climate – which are better in the south. The italian mentality is simply inadequate and incredibly ignorant and unfortunately many young people are instructed with keeping up with the absurd inadequate tradition and corrupted status quo. M5S (5 Star movement) is the ONLY hope and I’m glad it exists and got many votes. But the democracy isn’t working as it should: Italians are making it exasperately hard for that movement to get space. Most italians despise them. As someone said, italiand would make a revolution in order for things to NOT change. Did YOU say in the article that “if things were that bad, italians would march in Rome?”. No, that’s not the way it is. Italians, as someobody else mentioned, as so goddamn lazy, they are scared by any change, positive or negative. Italy is making it hard for the M5S to give an impact, it’s a miracle they have a presence in the parliament and guess what – they really don’t have it in the traditional media, only the internet. Tv news completely ignores the M5S. This indicates the italian “approach”: they want things to be shit, because they’re that apathetic, lazy and worthless. And before saying they “look good”, really eveluate the matter from different angles…by scandinavian coolness standards for one, they certainly don’t.
Richard says
Wow. Much of this is my sentiment. I liven in Milan for a number of years and returned to London, I could not take the Italian mentality anymore. I speak Italian and would love to return, Ferrara or Cagliari or Perugia, would be on my shortlist.
Pro’s of Italy:
Weather
Food
Architecture
Cheap property compared to the UK
Quality fresh produce in the shops.
Cheap restaurants
The people are generally content with what they have.
Water bills are cheaper than the UK
Food is cheaper
Very cheap public transport and rail fares.
The Italians are extremely welcoming to the English
If you donate blood they give you half a days holiday from work.
Skiing is really cheap
Council tax is less in Italy than the UK for a similar sized property.
Negatives
Bureaucracy, I had to queue for 2 days for my permesso di soggiorno
Internet, gas and electric are much more expensive than the UK and do not work as well.
No Uber, infact Italians hate capitalism.
Impossible to start and run a profitable business.
Corruption. the country cannot move forward until it improves its justice system.
Speed of trials, verdicts punishment etc.
Italian women are stunning but not much fun. They never play stripping games at parties or go skinny dipping. Nudity in Italy is just naked Italian men. Nudity is not that popular as it is in the UK. Do they have a naked bike ride in Milan or Rome? Is it allowed. My point is that Italian women are not that liberated.
Pollution was really bad in Milan particularly the winter.
Graffiti
Prostitutes on every street corner! We have pro’s in the UK but only on the internet, I have never seen street pros in the UK. You get accosted all the time which is tedious. You do not feel safe.
Syringes in the gutter and lots of rubbish in the streets.
Even parking wardens carry guns. All security staff carry pistols.
In Milan they clean the streets every 2 weeks if you leave your car in the wrong place at the wrong time they give you a ticket. It is stupid system. You do not know if that is the day they clean the fu*** street.
Stopping every 200Km on the autostrada to pay a fu*** toll.
Car insurance is 3 times the price of the UK. A VW golf insured in Milan is about £700 per year.
They have lots of private beaches on the coast where you have to rent a sun lounger to use it. Unlike the UK where all beaches are free.
No real desire by anyone to change the system
It is 100% a matriarchal society. Womens day is a big event in Italy where they get flowers and discounts. They do not have a mens day.
Child custody laws after a divorce discriminate against men. In fact you will not get custody of the children if you are male. When it comes to the family all laws discriminate against men.
Italy is dying; the birth rate is 1.3 per female.
The wealth tax is crap
I have Italian friends and there is still a pull on the country for me. If I do go back I would only ever rent a property. I have known people who take 3 years to sell a house in Italy. Listing the nagatives i think they out weigh the positives. Nice place for a holiday but not now to live.
Unless it has got a lot better since I lived in Milan.
If my list is completely wrong apologies. Please correct it.
Licia says
I am not Italian but work in Italy since 1998 in a big hotel in Florence. 90% of our guests are Americans and, yes, I believe that, at this point, my experience about American behaviours is quite big. Beside many points already considered in the comments above, I’d like to point on a basic aspect that many American tourists have in common: they like to point on situations they dislike about other countries (in this case Italy) and keep forgetting the real situation of the country they are coming from. The first example coming to my mind is when a lady from Texas complained with my director that in the country she was coming from you don\’t have to pay for water at a restaurant, ever! She totally forgot, however (but not so my director), that her sweet husband had to go the the hospital in Florence after a bad fall he had walking downtown. His wrist had to be put in a plaster cast and, believe it or not, at a cost of 7 euros (ER fees) all included. Try to do the same in the US…
The father of a good friend of mine (American from upstate New York, Buffalo), had to sell his house to pay for part of the hospital expenses after he was diagnosed with brain cancer (insurance, apparently, did not cover that disease!?). He died in 2009… He had to go to live with his son in the last period of his unlucky life, but, my friends, at the restaurant the water, from the faucet of course, was FREE!!!!
Another thing, and this happened to me during my last trip to the US, which is apparently common among Americans flying abroad, is the sense of safety they feel just in their homeland. The thing could be considered quite normal, I know, since it is obvious to have more confidence in areas and situations we know perfectly and we are at ease with. But to get to the point, and this is what I have seen with my eyes, to kiss the tar of the airport’s runway (we were just landed in Boston) to show the happiness of being back to \”supersafe\” USA from an American couple (quite funny, btw, since they were pretty huge people indeed and had a few problems to kneel), it makes me think that, maybe, many Americans (I am saying many because i heard the conversations of many other Americans tourists talking about this particular subject) are partially unaware of the country they are living in. Maybe, just to refresh their mind, they should go here sometimes: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/12/gun_death_tally_every_american_gun_death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html. I’ve never, never, never seen such a warzone neither in Italy, nor in Greece, where I am from. Maybe, if they considered more also the negative aspects of the country they come from, and not just the positive ones (like the free water at the restaurants), the Americans would get along much better with the rest of the world. No offense people. Be positive! Licia
Black American girl in Rome says
As an American new to living in Italy, I’d like to briefly comment on this statement:
“a basic aspect that many American tourists have in common: they like to point on situations they dislike about other countries (in this case Italy) and keep forgetting the real situation of the country they are coming from…”
We’re not all that way. Take my case for example. I have plenty of material reasons to dislike my having moved to Italy. I’ve lost a lot of items and convenience here, but keep reading. Here goes.
I am a black American freshly moved to Italy, and a reasonably attractive woman. Since arrival in Rome less than one week ago, I have been nearly sexually assaulted by three men and put in danger. One was my cab driver and, when I told him I would not kiss or sleep him with him (and he used an extremely vulgar Italian word to describe this), and that I had a boyfriend already, which I do, the cab driver dropped me off in the middle of nowhere and stole my money. It was 99 degrees outdoors and I spent hours getting a subsequent cab ride back home.
My belongings were damaged or stolen during their transit through customs. The ones that were not, were delayed. Half the electrical outlets in my apartment don’t function. The others nearly blew up my computer. The apartment has few lights and is so dim it’s difficult to see in order to cook a meal. Nothing seems to work. Bureaucracy is endemic. Euros are impossible to get. American VISA cards rarely work outside overpriced clothing shops. The men clearly are either oversexed or believe the Hollywood lie that all black women are whores – and this has endangered my safety and life.
But with all that said:
I’m aware and appreciative of the great aspects of life in Italy that America never offered me. Health care is nearly zero cost. I have a full time job and wonderful income and a lovely boss. My American bank account is still operational and this gives me a clout and spending power here many would envy. Italian women are awesome and fun. Italian men, especially from Sicily, are still the hottest looking in the galaxy. I’ve made wonderful friends here. People are humble, funny, open and sincere. The food is incredible. The wine is even more incredible. And most of all:
No USA guns, no USA police, no USA crime, and ZERO AMERICAN RACISM.
This American woman fully appreciates what Italy has to offer. The broken appliances? The drastic and sudden J-curve crash drop in convenience? I’ll get used to ’em.
Frankly I find the nuisances and obstacles kind of a Zen teacher, and I am learning American speed, demand, insistence and convenience for whatever reason seem to come at a cost to quality of life. I think what I’m saying in many words here is Italian society seems slowed, jerry rigged and faulty to us Americans and other Anglo culture offspring nations, but Italians are smart enough to prefer the jerry rigging because they know its alternative is wampum… beads, trinkets and emptiness that ultimately will turn Italy into America… it seems instinctively they know where that will lead. The USA… didn’t.
The Italian people’s heads are on correctly, and because of this they value wise priorities like family, quality of life, and taking it easy. They have rejected the speed and convenience culture other comments here seem to despise having lost by living in Italy. It was a wise choice. This American wants them and you to know: it’s a wise choice. The United States is a dead nation now that chose less wisely.
I as an American glad to be stared at because of my curves and looks instead of my skin color am enjoying almost every second of it, and am happy to have Italy as my teacher. Sexism and inconvenience will beat racism and FICO oppression any day of the week, folks. Italy is a tough guru, but I love the path she gives. I will continue to gratefully walk it.
Just my 2 dollars and 98 cents of it. Ciao 🙂
Alex Roe says
Well, BAGR,
I think your comment is worth rather more than a mere 2 bucks and 98 cents 🙂
Aside from the not so good experiences with Italian men – and I’ve heard quite a few stories myself on this topic (but being a man, have not experienced this directly) – you seem to appreciate the positive aspects of Italy which tends to be in love with certain aspects of US culture.
“priorities like family, quality of life, and taking it easy” are important in Italy, however, I don’t think Italians “have rejected the speed and convenience culture” which is something Italians tend to appreciate greatly when they find themselves in more efficient nations. Italians in Italy moan pretty much constantly about sloth and red tape and would appreciate a little more speed and efficiency. However, personally, I don’t think Italy needs to copy ‘efficient’ Anglo-Saxon cultures, what it needs to do is to develop its own take. Curiously, in a nation known for its creativity, Italy does not seem to be able to come up with alternative, and maybe better, angles on how things can be done. I’ve no idea why and I’ve been here for much longer than you.
Racism is not a huge problem in Italy even if it does exist but it’s nothing like the extremes of US racism. As for guns, Italians do have them (https://italychronicles.com/they-got-guns/) but unlike Americans, they are not vociferous about their rights to possess guns (which are limited by laws), and gun crime is rare in Italy – with the exception of the various mafias who do shoot each other from time to time and will shoot those who don’t play along. Even though law enforcement officials and even the odd bus ticket inspector carry guns, they are rarely used. In this respect, Italy works much better than the US. It also works better than the UK, where I’m from, which has long had problems with street crime and senseless violence which seems very rare in Italy.
Overall, though, living in another country is a very valuable experience and lots can be learnt from it – seems you have discovered this.
Sexual assault in Italy does happen but seems relatively rare – use your common sense and avoid being alone in potentially dangerous circumstances – very late at night and after dark in virtually empty areas – and you’ll be fine.
Best and thanks,
Alex
christian says
well, this has been an interesting read, there seems to be a guy who loves Italy and is looking on the bright side of life and we have a couple of Italians who hate Italy so they have left. and we also have a few foreigners who had some culture shock.
the Italians who left, I am guessing your circumstances were not good there, so you moved to greener pastures.
now with your new life and new environment you only have praise for your new host country.
but you are asking the owner of this blog to live the real ITALIAN life to truly understand it. you are asking him to live in the ghettos, in the slums of Naples to understand the true hardships of Italians! LOL are you friggen kidding me! ? why does he have to live there to understand Italy?
which Italian wants to live there?? no Italians I know!! and most Italians don’t live there…
I am sorry, this is just crazy talk. one doesn’t have to be poor, or from the ghettos to experience Italy
that’s like saying foreigners need to move to the housing projects of the UK or the states, to truly understand the hardship the UK has right now, or the states, LOL, NO ..
my family in the States live far from the Ghettos or the inner city. does that mean they are not experiencing the true America? because they have a house and two cars in suburb?
I grew up out of Italy and lived in a middle class neighborhood like so many others, sure there were kids from school who were from poor areas and we knew growing up those areas were poor and riddled with drugs and crime. but that doesn’t mean my country is like that!
I don’t have to live there to be called a true BRIT! YANK! kiwi, Aussie, or ITALIAN.
one doesn’t have to live poor and struggle to truly understand Italy.
that is the perspective from a poor man! and frankly speaking, yes I am sure ITALY SUCKS to him..
it’s like asking the homeless guys sleeping in wall street hows life in the big apple? for him USA SUCKS
not for a guy working in goldmansac.
let me tell you about me.
I was born in Italy, in Torino. My father moved us to Australia, I grew up down there as an immigrant
we were not rich! we were not upper middle class, my parents were workers, rent payers, and just trying to make ends meat, but they had jobs, and we didn’t go hungry or anything like there, there were far more people in worst situations than us, put it that way, I loved Australia, it had a lot of problems, crimes, gangs, graffiti, drugs, youth violence,
I could dwell on the negative and scare the world to come to that country..
or I could paint a different picture and have everyone wanting to pack up and move there.
I then moved to New Zealand, pretty much the same deal as Australia.
when I reached 22 I moved to South Korea, and have lived here for 15 years, sure this country is safe, no drugs, no youth crime, no graffiti, no corruption in the government facility sector, meaning interrupting of serviced for the public, everything works like clock work here, but corruption is strife here too just in different ways. many EXpats here complain all the time about Korea, and many praise it and defend it.
many say how its better than their country.
even the local Italians here have different opinions of it.
depends on where the Expats are from and how their situation was back home to compared to here.
some foreigners here came from poor backgrounds , crap neighborhoods, now in Korea they have a job and some money in the bank, and FRIENDS, so life here is all gravy! and they don’t want to ever return back to their homes in America.
from their mouths it was SCREW THAT…… America is in the toilet and it’s to dangerous.!
same words from my British mates here when asked about returning back to the UK, NOWAY! they said
but then I have friends who want to move to USA and England..
so you see, people who say, ITALY has problems well of course it does…
which country doesn’t? as long as Humans are dwelling on the lands there will be problems.
we could sit here and play a game of my country is worse than your country, but what’s the point?.
the grass is always greener on the other side.
sometimes you have to go away to truly appreciate what you had. or go away to truly appreciate what you have now.
also people want different things from their experience abroad.
money, kids, life style, friends, food, culture etc
so certain areas are better than others.
look …America is still a land where many people would rather move too. but seriously with a kill rate of 15.000 gun deaths a year is it really the best country in the world? and is it really safe??
the UK…. sure no real gun deaths to report , but what about the gangs! the youth crime, the chavs, the hooligans, the drugs, the crimes, the unemployed the racial hate crimes the weather,etc…
just like in Canada, Australia, nz, the uk, it’s all the same pretty much..
you want to talk about graffiti, or letting it’s cities go ?
every country has it’s nice areas, and it’s crap areas, every country has it’s slums, ghettos and it’s rich areas.
ok I will agree Italy does need some help when it comes to this though, it just makes the whole country look like a poor area, but NYC has plenty of graffiti too. and so does London.
I have friends from Napoli who tell me Napoli has to many problems, but he wants to return, because its home. “I love Napoli” another Italian friend said, he doesn’t want to return, just for holidays, would rather live in Brighton, I asked him why.. he replied.. I have friends in Brighton and I like English culture.
I have no desire to move back to Australia, New Zealand, America or the UK, I’ve been there done that, and frankly found those countries to be a mess! maybe it’s the huge diverse melting pot of ethnic cultures all living together which makes the place chaos, but frankly I believe life is what you make of it,
some people are happy in certain places while others are not.
I am sure someone from the shanty towns of africa who move to naples and has an actual roof over his head will think Naples is great!
if you want peace and quiet, move to the country!
but for those people saying LONDON is not dangerous.. you are delusional!
it’s very dangerous, like most parts of the UK….
problem is,
you don’t live in the area where it is, so you don’t see it.. maybe in Italy you lived in bad areas, so you saw it often, but where my family live in Torino and when ever I came back for visits, I don’t see any crime.
I hear stories, I knew kids who are have been murdered 5 blocks from my house in new zealand!!!!
NEW ZEALAND!! in a peaceful beach town..
Italians love to complain about anything, I should know, my mum and dad always complain..
they complain about new zealand this, australia that, America this, America that, ohh in Italy it’s not like this, ohh in Italy it’s so much better blar blar..
then we come to Italy and they complain about Italy and say how much better new Zealand is..LOL
Si says
What an exceptionally Arrogant post. You slag off the UK and NZ for having gangs and hooligans. Have you never been to Rome,Naples,Palermo..pretty much any city in Italy?? What I have found is that Italians who are not cosmopolitan or living in the REAL world are delusional,bigoted and VERY rude. And most Brits I know in Italy say one thing
‘WHY THE HELL DID I MOVE HERE’
peterk-245@gmail.com says
I was born in italy but moved to australia aged five. I worked hard here got my degree owned a company and now aged 44 i cant afford rent because i cant get a job because australia has become so racist and dysfunctional. I plan to return to italy very soon. Life in australia is very boding people here are selfish and ignkrant and i hate life here. Many are leaving especially ethnics due to the racism against us.
Italian swede says
Si, what do you expect? That’s what italians are. Arrogant and ignorant.
“What I have found is that Italians who are not cosmopolitan or living in the REAL world are delusional,bigoted and VERY rude.”
You are fully right, the only decent ones are those who live in the REAL world…a lot of italians don’t know what the real world is. You know what they tell ME, those who can’t speak a word of english? That *I* live in “my world”….which we both know is the real world of the internet, metropolises and being a world citizen who hs been to places. Well, to most italians I’m just a crazy dude….
They have way too much nationalistic pride, so don’t expect them ever to be rational and objective about their country versus the others. They need to be deluded they’re not inferior when in facts they are in many areas. They are too weak to stand the truth. They need to delude themselves other places and peoples can NEVER be better – which is obviously complete bullshit. Oh, and it’s typical that when they get a moment of sense and begin speaking the obvious about how shitty and inferior to other places Italy is, they don’t allow OTHERS to do it…they expect foreigners to not THINK it. Jantelagen indeed….”you will not think you’re better than us”….
They’re narcissists, collective narcissists; plain and simple. I don’t think even the french are so, or maybe they’re at the same level. Certainly the brits and germans aren’t, not to this STUPID point. Italians lose all sense and rationality and objectivity when assessing the situation. Reality is that italy is immense shit for many different reasons. It’s undeniable. Italy is at a stage of cultural and social apocalypse – no more no less. Only an ignorant person devoid of any objectivity and refinement can deny that. I’m confident most western people visiting italy or living there for some time would NOT deny it. As you said most brits who move there curse the day they did. Obviously. Never can britain be so SYSTEMATICALLY bad and nonsensical.
Italy – the south especially, of course – lacks ANY discipline, and much logic in its system and lifestyle. Italians are just unreasonable crazy horses who just do as they feel – and you can bet what they feel is usually fucking stupid.
Italians unfortunately follow their “heart” solely and have long thrown their brains away…
And let’s not forget they xenophobia and racism which makes life in Italy intolerable and any single encounter stressful for a person who is slightly non italian: italians think that the italian way is “better” thus any actual modernity (lack of love for backwardness, which italians have) and any attitude that is much superior in logic and adequacy to the “italian way”, any “northerneuropeaness” gets constantly INSULTED or at the very least ignored. Italians don’t give a damn what is “better” or “worse”, thay don’t have standards…they’re arrogant, narcissistic solipsists who lack any reason and obectivity. So let’s not expect to reason with them. We all want italy and italians to get better – we know italy could be wonderful. But I think the main issue here is that life expects people to EVOLVE and CHANGE, and we must have the courage to give up the “goods” of the past which in the end transform into a curse – Italy is victim of such curse, the curse of its past and the fear to assess its current limitations and start over.
When italians discuss politics, they stay on the surface and avoid speaking in a resolutive manner. They don’t really want to improve anything. Theyìre apathetic and “happy” in their misery. They’re extremely lazy. They are, by modern western capitalistic standards, goddamn losers. The italian mentality is that of a loser, of a person who cannot achieve anything in a competitive environment due to his unwillgness to adapt to change. Italians are certainly not the first ones to adopt the goods of modernity. They are always BEHIND. And let’s not get confused and look at “new iPhone adoption rate”. Their mind is really really slow and adverse to change and by change we also mean the fact that today is a different day than yesterday. They have probems accepting that, that today isn’t yesterday. Italy, especially the south is stuck in a time freeze if we really examine the core beliefs of the mentality. Unfortunately most people look at appearances and think italians are true first world citizens. Not at all! They’re much behind central-northern europe.
Anyway yes, one can find more normal italians among those who moved away from Italy, learned english and began doing business in the world that matters. Those who didn’t are completely backwards in all ther facets.
Carmine says
Your comment’s have proved who is truly the Ignorant one. I would love for you to go voice that opinion openly Here in Italy and videotape the response for me to watch. Anyone who has read his comment please know it is nothing more than his opinion and he may just be Jealous he is not Italian himself !
Andrew says
I agree with carmine. This “Italian Swede2 if he ever was really Italian wrote one of the most boring and full of stereotypes comments of the 21th century. You must be really living in the real world…lol real Teletubbies at most. You are free to saty out of Italy btw, we will win both.
Armando Lavezzi says
Hello,
I am living in Italy by choice (Rome) and your comment proves an extreme amount of ignorance. Italians are different. More relaxed. But in a good way. Only you and some other ignorant people don’t understand the Italian Dolce Vita. Go look in your home, i like “mine” as it is!
sophia says
Alex, do you actually live in Italy, or are you writing this as a hobby? whatever filtering drugs you are on I want the same.
Im not going to argue all your points, other Italians have already done that to no avail. Perhaps you should share with us what you do for a living and how long youve been living here?
its astounding!
Alex Roe says
Hi Sophia,
If you check out the about page, you’ll find out what I do for a living. I get clobbered by Italy’s taxes.
I’ve been in Italy for well over 10 years and so I think I know Italy quite well, even if I do spend much of my time in Italy’s north.
When I first came here I found the wealth of Italians astounding – especially the level of home ownership (and number of homes) and the short, if non-existent mortgages.
I mix with what would generally be described as Italy’s middle classes – engineers, journalists, a few lawyers and others, and know business owners and factory workers too.
Remember that this post was written before the crisis really started to hit Italy.
And if you want to understand what I know about Italy – read Italy Chronicles from 2005 to date – over 2000 posts. Not all of it is pretty either.
Happy reading.
Cheers,
Alex
Carmine says
You should spend alittle more time more south than Milano. The Politicians here ruin there own people, such a large group of people get to make decisions for such a small country. It does not work. The Laws and Regulations for someone who has a dream or an idea almost infefinitely holds them back from chasing that dream in there home country. That is why most of the Italian youth has left Italy for “Better” governments and more OPPORTUNITY.
Sadaf says
Hi Alex…
actually I was searching for Italy and how things go on in there but I have some questions from you that I didn’t find out over internet … I wanted to know the QUALITY EXPECTATION of people in Italy, RANGE OF SALARY in there and at last how is the surrounding URBAN CONTEXT in a city like SanMarino? I really appreciate if you just answer my questions 🙂
tercüme bürosu says
Why this question? Why should Italy be bad? It is a different country with different people. I agree that some cities are different but in every country there are different cities.
Roberts says
Sorry Alex,but as an Italian I think your talking nonsense. Firstly, I’m a waiter. I can’t afford Armani jackets or shades, I can barely afford to feed my daughter for goodness sake,how dare you just assume that we all have it easy here like some sort of legs more politician. Looks like you have caught on to some of the typical Milanese arrogance. The taxes here are ridiculous,the transport system bad,the buildings are crumbling and badly maintained, the people misreable and moany and the young are viciously treated. I hope to emigrate to Bristol this year to start a new life and I’m sure it will be better than this awful country I call home. I hope you enjoy being smug and rude,because you only viewed Abruzzo through a tourists eye,I live in Abruzzo and it’s awful!!!
Alex Roe says
Are you the same person as Monica? You have the same email address.
Are you real people? Afraid to use your own name? Why?
Best,
Alex
Alex Roe says
Monica/Roberts,
You will have noticed the question mark in the title of this post, I’m sure.
The purpose was to find out whether other agree with my observation – if you don’t, fine by me, that’s what I wanted to find out.
If you feel you need to use insults to get your messages across, fine, but it does not really work. Give some concrete evidence.
Cheers,
Alex
Monica says
No,at the moment Roberto is visiting me with his daughter to see what life here is like. Im now married and my surname is McCormick. The concrete evidence Mr.Roe is not to sit and slag off the U.K because unlike you the only violence ive ever occured from youths was in Italy. Ive had nothing but warmth and friendliness from Brits. Secondly,i cannot even begin to describe my rage at your arrogance to assume Italians are rich. 48% of people in one town in Southern Italy are illterate in THEIR OWN LANGUAGE. You want evidence,fine here it ishttp://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/09/20/best-and-worst-countries-for-women-the-full-list.html Now how can you say that italy is better when it is ranked below Uzbekistan for eqaulity. The VAT rate is higher in Italy despite the wages being lowerthe housing quality is shocking (unless your rich,because you so so are) and you clealry live in the lap of luxury. If Italy was THAT good,why are the more Italians living in the U.K and why do so many refuse to return home???It makes no logical sense to say that Italy is better,because your not an avergae Italian are you??? your a RICH EXPAT. Before you mouth off,live like i used to do in the slums of Naples,maybe that will perk you up a bit…..Ciao!!!
Alex Roe says
Your are lucky not to have come across violence in the UK – I have, several times. I think you’ll find there are areas in the UK where literacy is low too. I suppose you have heard of the gang violence and stabbings in the UK? Or maybe not? Do you read UK papers?
For the record, I’m not a “rich expat”, as you put it, nor do I live in the lap of luxury! If only! I’ve noticed this before, a lot of Italians seem to assume that all expats are rich, but they are not. If you believe that, you are not very well informed.
I have heard areas of Naples are not good, but there are similar areas in the UK, as I suppose you know.
So I guess the point you are attempting to make is that the south of Italy is not too healthy, which is something I knew already. Italy has some of the dodgiest politicians on the planet and this keeps the south messed up. The south should not be messed up, it has lots of potential. I know that, and you probably know that too.
As for what I know about Italy, I suggest you read a little more of this blog about Italy. You might find it interesting.
Instead of running away from Italy, perhaps you should have stayed and tried to change it? Just a thought.
Cheers,
Alex
Alex Roe says
I guess people up here in Milan are a lot richer than down in Abruzzo, Roberto – I often see tram drivers with flash smart phones and Ray Ban shades here.
As for the taxes, I know they are ridiculous and Italy does not make it at all easy to pay the damn things either.
So, life in Abruzzo is awful, in your opinion. That’s all you had to say and you too will have noticed the question mark in the title of this post. I was not saying that life in Italy is great, I was asking whether it is that bad, I wanted to know.
Now I do know that in certain areas of Naples and in Abruzzo, life is not at all good in Italy.
Thanks for making that clear 🙂
Cheers,
Alex
Monica says
Fair enough that literacy levels are low in SOME parts of the UK,but the poverty gap in the UK is lower than that of Italy. The university system in Italy is a sham. No accomidation in the first year,lack of equipment and Italy always come bottom on the ranks. As for violence,there probably is some but the UK papers exaggerate rate it. Brighton has one of the lowest violent crome rates in Europe so im not bothered. Why should i stay in a country that has no future??? Unless sufficient work is done it will go nowhere. Also,my best friend is a police officer and Italian youths (paticulary boys) have a terrile rep for sexual assaults on foreign girls. An Irish school once came to our neighbourhood to do a concert and there were 4 accounts of groping by Italian boys and one girl was hit over the head with a metal bar.
Monica says
Alex,are you completely off your rocker?
I’m Italian and I left Italy two years ago to live In Brighton. I have never experienced street crime or drunken behavior. However, my car was broken into 6 times in Naples and the young are left to rot. I know plenty of Italians who feel the UK system has encouraged them
To do well,Itaky does nothing. You sound like an arrogant,rude and patronising snob,and if you think the quality of life in the U.K isn’t as good as Italy,your just pathetic. Try living as real Italian and realise just how awful Uraly is and how wonderfully diverse and BETTER the UK is.
Italian swede says
Monica, relax.
I think it’s absolutely unfair and exaggerated to insult Alex in this way. You must realize that a foreigner in Italy doesn’t have it as easy in insulting the nation that is hosting him – italians wouldn’t forgive him easily. As a brit, he might have certain manners, maybe an excess of manners, and be a bit too kind towards Italy.
At its core, he probably agrees with you that Italy isn’t that good of a place. As a brit, he might know britain and its ills a bit more and so be careful before stating that britain is indeed better. I usually think and say (as an italian/swedish) that no place in europe is as bad as Italy, but sometimes a doubt arises. The whole of europe isn’t doing that well to be honest. But yeah, there is a difference, but you don’t want to be so harsh towards a person who is definitely not trying to deceive anyone, but to figure out stuff.
It’s difficult to assess the quality of european nations and the quality of life in them objectively. What’s enough is realizing that Italy is DIFFERENT from the rest of europe, and many differences are certainly not positive ones.
But I know see that the logo of this page has a heart in it. That we’re speaking italian LOVE here. And well, love is not objectivity and realism. I am interested only in assesssing things realistically, as I don’t LOVE italy at all and don’t see why I should. This makes me more objective than one who “loves” it.
So, in the end, I agree with you – the UK is definitely BETTER as for general quality of life, MUCH better, and diversity is a key point: Italy is really too uniform and italians are all the same, and I hate that.
Jay says
I currently live in Milan and think you’re insane. Up here in Milan things work? Is that why it took seven weeks to get my metro card which was meant to take a week, and the staff lied to my face every time I went in to check if it was ready? Is that why my lecturers waltz in at 9.15 for a lecture that was meant to begin at 8.30, and why there are so many students in my classes that there isn’t even space to sit on the floor? Is that why when a pair of shoes I bought fell apart in a week, I was told it was my fault and they wouldn’t refund me? Is that why when I called the internet company because it wasn’t working, the engineer told me he was overqualified to fix my internet and I should get a friend to do it? I could go on. If that’s what you mean by ‘in Milan things work’ then god help anyone else.
The only reason that Italians have so many material goods is because they place the bella figura above everything else. They’ll beg their parents for money to pay the rent while they waste money on designer clothes and phones, or they live at home until they’re 40. It’s almost impossible to find a job for graduates these days, most of my friends here are going into magistrales not because they want to, but because it’s better than being unemployed.
Your whole argument here seems to be “Italians are rich because they’ve been fiddling the system and can sponge off their parents”. Great for those who that applies to, but for everyone else…vai al diavolo, I guess?
Jay says
And the menefreghismo of this place is shocking. In England, if someone graffittied my appartment block, I would report it to the police and they would look into it. Here people don’t even care enough to clean it off their houses, and if you reported it to the police you’d be laughed out of the country. There’s so much dog shit and litter on the street, graffitti everywhere- all because everyone is willing to shrug and go “It’s not my problem, someone else should deal with it”. Pathetic.
Alex Roe says
Hi Jay,
Compared to the rest of Italy, Milan works reasonably well. I’ve always got my metro cards within an hour or so.
Compared to other nations, I will admit that even Milan leaves a lot to be desired!
As for Italian wealth, true, some of it is down to fiddling, probably quite a lot of it, but Italians are pretty good business people and would be better if the country were not bogged down by bureaucracy and handicapped by self-serving politicians.
You are right on the mentality front – compared to us Brits, they are weird, that I will admit. The dog poo and graffiti, and the driving, are all good examples of the Italian me, me, me attitude which you have noticed.
Still, not all Italians are selfish, I do know some perfectly normal down to earth Italians, some of whom, I suspect, are people who support Beppe Grillo.
Perhaps Italy should invite non-Italians to sort out the mess.
As for the UK, it ain’t perfect – levels of street violence are far too high, drunkenness too high and, from what I’ve understood from a former colleague, more young Britons are living with their parents because property has become too expensive for most first time buyers. Many Italian parents encourage their children to stay at home – totally different from the UK, I know.
Despite all the problems, I still think the quality of life is higher in Italy than in the UK.
How long have you been here?
Best,
Alex
andrea says
Hi there ,i’m an Irish woman living in Caserta.I married an Italian7 years ago who I met while teaching in Salerno.We have 2 children aged 5 and 2.when i first came to Italy 10 years ago I fell in love with the country in particular the South.Now I know Campania hasn’t a great reputation but even living on a very meagre teaching salary in the beginning I just loved and continue to love the South.My first foray into the world of Asilo and schooling did put me off a bit,I think thoughif you have a certain type of personality things can just wash over you.We came to the UK for 1 year as an experience for my husband really as his company has a centre in Bedfordshire.Personally I missed Italy everyday,though my then 3year old seemed to love it and still asks to go back 2 years later.Now we have an opportunity to return and my husband would like to take it-he is tired ofthe corruption here,he suffers an allergy due to the higher pollution levels,he is worried about the state of the state schooling system and the future for the South.We have applied for work out of the South but no luck as he is nearing 50 and most places are looking for younger people.I am negative about the everyday level of crime anti social behaviour and violence in the uk.I will miss the weather and I think children grow up in a more loving society here.There is also the health service which has some better aspects,for example paediatricians for children rather than just going to the GP in the UK.My husband is fed up with the rubbish problem,there are often strikes by the bin men.Transport-the public bus company went bankrupt and we had no buses for4 months.He is fedup with the traffic and risky driving to work-the road he has to take is notoriously dangerous.In the UK he cycled through a leafy lane to work.I like the flexibility here,I teach some lessons from home with my 2 children playing next to me-impossible in the UK.80% of my Italianfriends say we should go, but I am still unsure,Probably in the end we will go as I feel my hubby’s had enough .I clicked on this blog just to get others views !Even for all it’s ‘crazy making’ situations I still love Italy.
Italian swede says
“The only reason that Italians have so many material goods is because they place the bella figura above everything else.”
Confirming.
This is a pathetic trait of italians, and that a foreigners would assume italians are “smart”, “wealthy” and “good in business” because they “dress well” (again…very questionable…known brand doesn’t mean “good”, which is how italian think, which is a sign of NOT being able to dress WELL) is…well, being made a fool of by italians.
Italians aren’t happy, aren’t wealthy – they’re just a pathetic bunch whose main feature is INCOMPETENCE at anything they do. The vast majority of competent people are extremely pissed off or left italy. The “happy” ones are goddamn ignorant and incompetent else they wouldn’t be “happy” (again bella figura…nothing REAL…just a show) at all.
I’d like to add, as a 32 yeard old man, how Italy is a nation for THE AGED that has absolutely no respect for the new, fresh, modern and young. This is a big topic yet easily provable but it unnerves me too much to begin speaking about it. It is the core injustice in Italy. It’s all about aged people taking everything and asking those who are innovative, fresh and young to fuck off and “understand” that old > new. The way the M5S is ignored by most is one proof of this. I constantly get treated by shit by old people in Italy. They’re worthless, they are laughable because of how slow and old they look for their age but they expect all people to “respect” them simply because they’re OLD and UNNECESSARY in all possible ways.
Many times old ladies couldn’t respect a kew and they take for granted I’m stupid and would allow them to. Italians have troubles recognizing when they FAIL. These old ladies DIDN’T PASS thanks to my intervention, but they tried over and over again. Being in a kew in Italy is so very unnecessarely stressful. These fucking idiots FAIL, they WON’T PASS when I’m in there, yet they don’t confess they are fucking losers who want to pass but DON’T when I’m in there. Italians never recognize failure, they’re too proud for that, and they deserve to be perceived for the incompetent, ignorant IDIOTS that they are. Stupidity is the main feature of these old ladies who think only of themselves and think others must make way for them due to…them being old and stupid? There is no fucking LOGIC in them…WHY would I respect an old ugly short person? WHY!?!?! I will never, period!
At least half of italians are demented and wrong-headed. They are so ignorant in theis convinction that what is old is perfect and doesn’t need to be changed. Old = INADEQUATE, that’s what it means, but the old italians don’t get it. Morons.
So, I suppose I hate old italians more than the young ones. The problem of many youth is that they have the same mentality of their idiotic ancestors. Those who understand their ancestors are quite demented, are better and way more respectable.
Pablo says
I have lived in Milan, and have fond memories of it. I would visit Rome regularly and fell in love with it’s exuberance and beautiful chaos. You can’t move to a country expecting it will be the same as it was back home , why move then? the whole thing about living in Italy is the spontaneity and innovative lateral thinking, the art of living or “arrangiarsi”. Sure it helps if you understand the culture, history and the people (& the language too) but I find Italians to be very welcoming, generous and helpful. Of course there are rude ones but you can find them EVERYWHERE!
My neighbour in Milan would come over and offer me fresh homemade pasta and tiramisu… I have been offered food/coffee by strangers sitting next to me on long train rides to the deep south, THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED ANYWHERE OUTSIDE OF ITALY.
As for the quality of life (in Milan) , I found it on a par with other European nations. Sure rent is high in Milan, but that is due to demand, as it is in Paris or London. Food is inexpensive , especially if you’re shopping in a local neighbourhood market, eating out is affordable (restaurants are packed every night of the week)., you can grab a coffee and brioche for a couple of euros, enjoy dinner for the price of an aperitivo (perfect for students), transportation is excellent (subway, buses and trams) you don’t need a car- a vespa would be nice though, and what makes it more remarkable is the offering of culture, architecture, fashion and all realms of design which it excels in, and the people watching isn’t bad either!
I have non-Italian friends who live there, who have established themselves with their own businesses, and bought property and enjoy a great quality of live , travelling all over Europe and abroad during summer holidays.
Sure, Milan or Italy is rewarding if you’re wealthy, but that’s like any other city/country!
Also, Italians like to lament about anything and everything then forget about it 2 minutes later over a gelato.
I now live in Sydney, Australia and find it a little boring by comparison. I often encounter rude people too.
Guido says
I am Italian born (from Milan in fact) and I have been living in Melbourne, Australia for many years (I may define myself more as an Australian than Italian) However I have kept my Italian, and I keep up with Italian life and issues, and I try to get back when I can. The view from an expat is always different, because knowing the language and also having connections with family and friends makes a difference. However I must agree with the fact that the difference in attitudes and lifestyle between cities like Milan and Rome is marked (and between the north and south generally). And don’t worry Jess, I’ve had quite rude Romans and Venitians even if I spoke perfect Italian! But there is another divergence in Italy. That is beetween big cities and small ones. when in Italy I grew up in the Lombardian city of Bergamo, and I would venture that provincial towns like Bergamo, Brescia, Verona etc. are much much better to live than even Milan or Turin.
Marco says
Hi everybody
I apologize for all the grammatical errors i’m going to do.
I’m Italian from RomA 😛
I would like to tell something to Jes, she thinks that italians were rude because she wasn’t able to speak italian… The problem is that we are italian, our national language is italian and most of the people are able to speak just a really basic english and they could seem rude when they try to speak it. By the way, i have been backpacking 1 month in Australia (awesome country) from Cairns to Melbourne, i had just one problem during the trip, especially in queensland, often i wasn’t able to understand what the people were sayng to me, and everybody was annoyed of this, acting like i was an idiot because i didn’t understand. I think my understanding skill of english is pretty good (i’m able to watch movie and read books without any problem) after 2 weeks i understood the problem was that most of the anglosaxon people (not only the oz) are speaking with weird accents or in dialects and pretend you to understand everything, often they can’t figure out such is hard to express your self in other languages cuase they speak only english. For honour of truth i’ve also met people that were nice with me also if i wasn’t understanding everything. That to explain that everywhere everybody could be a little bit rude if you don’t speak perfectly their language
About living in Italia
Currently i’m living/working in Milano and you definetely can’t compare this city with Roma. Milano is really much more developed than Roma, sometimes going around milano i feel like i’m not in an italian town.
Nerys says
I also live in Milan, which I think makes things easier in comparison to other places. I’ve been here for nearly two years and I love it. Yes, it’s not the easiest place to live in, and yes, you *do* need a certain amount of wealth to live a comfortable life here – for someone who doesn’t have any family here to ask for handouts it can be difficult – but for me, it works, I love the slower pace of life and the people. It’s funny how many Italians I know would jump at the chance to leave, and many people I know at home would love to be in my position.
Russell says
Alex I think you are being completely blind to the truth about Italy. You look at all the luxuries of living and the fact that people aren’t taking action and see that as evidence that ‘All is not so bad’.
I think you should do us readers the decency of letting us know a little more about your living situation in Milan because it seems like your perspective is highly insulated from the bleak reality that faces “the majority” of Italians (of course this majority makes up the minority of the wealth of Italy).
Maurice, F and Al are all representing a more accurate version of the way Italy is and unless you have a nice location in downtowm Milan with some fashion types or well to do friends and head out for an apperitivo every other day, that version of things should be blindingly obvious!
As we all know, the image factor in Italy is possibly the most important thing an italians life so I really fail to understand how you could continue to make references to aspects of that image factor as evidence for Italian life being quite good!
Why do Italians that earn 1200 a month (on paper) spend 800 a month on rent? Because image is Very important! Why do they take long holidays in August, have new phones and cars and redecorate the apartment? Because image is Very important!
I’m sorry, I’m laughing now , but did you say “tax evasion is not such a bad thing”???? Are you serious? That statement is communicating to me that you either A) have blinkers on and a lack of education to see the consequences of people not paying tax….. or B) you are living in with that group of shielded people and high society (its quite a big group compared to many other civilised nations) that is using the current system to keep a quiet advantage over the working majority and wouldn’t change the status quo .
alot of italians make huge sacrifices to maintain that “image factor” or they work in the black, nero, under the table…. to get ahead at all in Italy you are almost forced to break the law….. Look at one of the role models for most young male italians, he has done quite well for himself, and got the right image, the right girl…His name is Fabrizio Corona, he came to fame as an extortionist taking compromising photos of celebrities and then blackmailing them not to publish…. He breaks the law regularly and is one of the most respected people of young everyday italians.
Th italian family culture is very strong, it can certainly be a huge support for any young italian who is fortunate enough to have well off parents. But it is also a very codependant culture…. a foreigner could argue how healthy that can be but its a part of italy and in many cases works effectively, at least for now. I don’t know what it will be like for the next generation.
Italy has alot to offer, of that there is no doubt. The food, the fashion, the alternative approach to achieving something. Certainly the weather is the best on average of most of Europe. But that makes the bad points even more frustrating.
I agree with Nan that Italians are an exceptional people, with creativity and ambition unlike any other country but to be a foreigner living in Italy it is very frustrating that they do all settle for less and still complain about it. Because I see many of the problems and cannot understand for the life of me, how they can accept them. And they just say “welcome in Italia” I say Italians deserve Italy.
Alex Roe says
Hi Russell,
Do you live in Italy? Have you lived in Italy? Are you Italian? (Russell is not the most common of Italian names) You seem to know a little about Italy.
I suppose I do know a lot of graduates, this is true, but I also know a few non-graduates too. Nobody I know seems to have any real shortage of cash situation. On paper, neither do I really, only my money is perennially in other peoples banks! I’m sure there are some people who do have problems, but I don’t know many of them, and the one’s I do, are generally not Italians.
What I and a few other non-Italians have noticed through the years, is that there is a lot of family money here. In the UK, there is not so much, unless you move into the very highest echelons of society.
“Why do Italians that earn 1200 a month (on paper) spend 800 a month on rent?” – because they get handouts from family? Otherwise, unless you eat air, you are not going to survive on €400, well, not in Milan.
“I’m sorry, I’m laughing now , but did you say “tax evasion is not such a bad thing”???? Are you serious?” – Yes, I am. Indeed, it is tax evasion which has probably propped up Italy’s economy throughout the crisis, to an extent. Think about it – you are thinking normally, not out of the box. And if the government finally cracks down on tax evasion on Italy, consumer spending will fall drastically, for a start. And no, I’m not living in a shielded level of society – ask my accountant.
“they [Italians] work in the black, nero, under the table…. to get ahead at all in Italy you are almost forced to break the law” – there you see, tax evasion helps people get ahead too – you said it yourself.
Yes, Italy does have a lot to offer, that’s so true. The “image factor” as you put it, shows, perhaps, that not everything is perfect, but, at the end of the day, life ain’t so bad here. I’ve was at a similar level of income/lifestyle in the UK, before I came to Italy over 10 years ago. I had a good quality of life in the UK, but I soon found that for less money, more or less, Italy presented a better quality of life.
And this post was inspired by an Italian friend of mine who basically said the same thing.
Thanks for commenting and do let us know if you are Italian.
Best,
Alex
Sam says
As an Italian in Britain,i can honestly say that if you think Italy is a better place to live than the UK,your not right in the head. You only say that because you live in Milan,a Northern Italian city with much wealth. Go to place like Turin,Naples or anywhere south of Venice you will see expensive properties,poverty and general misery. My life here in the U.K is so much better than in Italy and most Italians agree with me,the life herr is cheaper,the education systemis better funded,the crime is lower and its not corrupt. Italy is also the worst country in Europe to be a women,and is ranked a sbeing the most unequal in Europe. Alex,before you make any assumptions,as a rich expat,you should live the life of a normal Italian and realise what a rubbish country it is to live in. Give me the UK anyday!
Alex Roe says
Hi Sam,
The title of a post was a question. Interesting to hear your opinion as an Italian in the UK.
I was down in Abruzzo last summer, and life down there did not seem at all bad. Some, Italian, friends of mine will be off to Le Marche, and they seem to like the quality of life there too.
Life anywhere without money is not easy. I know Italy has problems and, hopefully, it will sort itself out and you can come back 🙂
As for my being a “rich expat” – I wish.
Best,
Alex
Al says
Alex,
I’m not sure exactly why you’re on such a kick to promote how great life in italy is..
you’re not working for Berlusconi are you?
I have been living in Rome a couple of years now and this place has some real problems. People pay exorbitant rents while earning on average 1200 euros (currently 1081 GBP thereabouts). I suppose this wouldn’t be so unusual if it were evident that people were paying FOR something.
Instead, most of this city is a disorganised shambles, with potholes on every road, overcrowded buses, narrow pavements and barely working railway systems (although the metro system has improved somewhat). Add to that the nice covering of graffitti everywhere and you start to wonder why you have to pay up to (and in some cases, over) half your monthly salary (just for a room, not a whole apartment) in order to live here. The reason you still have 40 year old Italian men living with their mothers starts to become clear here.
The general feeling of most italians that I talk to in this city is that life is better elsewhere, particularly in the north of Europe. here the feeling seems to be generally that the ordinary person on the street doesn’t really matter all that much, particularly not to the Berlusconis out there. So I feel people don’t change things more from a feeling of powerlessness, rather than a feeling of general contentment.
The powered classes seem to have created a situation in which challenging the existing structure is nigh on impossible, with the complex webs of nepotism that reach every eschelon of social and political life. People need to get by from day to day, so that’s what they do. The fact that the simplest of things in daily life is a struggle here helps the system to remain as it is..it doesn’t mean people are happy about it.
Everyday life is a fight in Rome, not to get ripped off, abused, run over or to simply not have your eardrums burst by some inconsiderate motorist/street person. Never mind the perpetual struggle to get around the city and to get to places on time.
I’m not sure who you’ve been talking to about life in italy, but maybe try to include more Romans and southern italians in your researches..
Alex Roe says
Hi Al,
Thanks for your overview of life in Rome. The picture is rather bleak.
I don’t work for Berlusconi – if I did, I probably would not have published your comment 😉
And from what you are saying, things have not improved since Silvio took power.
As for Italians moaning, they often do, before whipping out the latest mobile phone, and dropping their Armani shades down over their eyes. They will then zoom off in a newish car too – despite low salaries, everyone seems to be able to afford cars here, and the extremely high insurance prices too.
Try to look beyond the words.
You are right that nepotism is rife.
Take a look at one or two other posts on this blog, and you’ll see that I don’t wear rose tinted Armani shades.
I do admit to promoting Italy, as there is lots to like about the place – although what is good is often smothered by the bad and the ugly.
Where are you from?
Best,
Alex
Al says
Can’t say i agree with the armani shades and cars comment really.
I think most of them are probably fake armani, and when i see tax lawyers working for major multinational companies driving off in small fiats, I don’t seem to feel the awesome buying power of the italians. Of course, in rome, you have to buy a car or die..(as this is what it feels like to ride the public transport 24/7)
I knew people working in call centers in Scotland who drove nicer (and newer) cars.
Also, in terms of the general urban degradation of the place, you only have to look. Words don’t come into it.
The situation speaks for itself.
Of course maybe Milan is different.
Alex Roe says
Hi Al,
I think you may find that the Armani shades are not fakes.
You could be right on the differences between Milan and Rome. Up here BMW X5s are two a penny.
I did notice that the metro in Rome was scruffy when I was there last year, but the streets of Milan often have litter strewn all over the place.
I take it that you have not met many Italians in Rome whose parents have bought them apartments, or who have second homes. How many iPhones and Blackberries do you see on the streets of Rome?
Maybe life is tougher in the eternal city. But I find it difficult to understand how people earning around 1000 Euros a month can afford to bring up kids, have several cars, and manage to holiday every year in August. The money must come from somewhere.
You mentioned Berlusconi. Isn’t it odd that people so poor should vote for someone like Silvio? Shouldn’t everyone be voting for the more socially conscious left?
Italy is a curious country, that is for sure. Oh, it has lots of faults, but in some respects it is better than the UK where I am from.
What are you doing in Rome?
Best,
Alex
Jess says
I completely agree with everything you said Al. I have been living in Rome for 11 months as an au pair and I am thanking my lucky stars that I only have one month to go. I have liked my job and the experience of living here but I am sick of listening to Italians complain and the basic destruction of a once beautiful historic city.
I know I can not generalise but this is just an example of one Italian family and I have heard A LOT of similar stories. I work for a lovely family but for the life of me I can not figure out what they’re all about. The parents were never married and are now separated but between them they own two houses on the outskirts of the city centre. One country house is Tuscany. Three cars, two motorbikes AND a boat. Now when I say they own their houses I actually mean their parents bought one of the Rome houses and the country house. The family also spends one or two months a year abroad.
Hearing this I would think that the family is indeed wealthy…but no unless theres a hidden goldmine somewhere they are not. So my question is how THE HELL do Italian families afford all this. On top of this the mother complains non-stop about having no money, I have never once been paid on time in a year. However, she spends like money is going out of fashion, the house is decked out in the latest stuff etc. There is also a cleaner employed in the home. Basically the mother does nothing and I mean nothing. She kisses and hugs the kids a lot though, I guess thats something.
So being from Australia, where we work and look after our homes and families WITHOUT help, WITHOUT country/beach houses and WITHOUT mummies and daddies bank accounts, I’m wondering why Italians complain so much. Well I know why they complain because of their general life and having no money. Therefore, this is where I feel like shouting if you have no money STOP buying useless things, DON’T employ a cleaner (get off your ass and do it yourself), and DON’T employ a nanny to look after YOUR kids. Ok I know it seems like I’m just having a random rant but this is really what occurs in a lot of families. I have many friends who are nannies and its the same in their families.
On another note in agreement with Al I also find Rome to be unpleasant. The graffiti and litter is horrifying. Basically the general lack of respect for a truly historic city is absurd and yes I mean the way especially the youth treat it but also tourists. The Australian government would never stand for anything to be treated this way. And yes I understand the state of the Italian government but no matter what political side you’re on it eventually comes down to each and every citizen.
I also found Italians in general quite rude. When I first got here people were rude because I couldn’t speak Italian and then after I learnt it, they were rude because they assumed I couldn’t speak Italian. Even after I asked them a question in Italian or answered them they would respond strangely or in stilted English.
I’m actually worried for Rome. Its terribly sad to see it like this. My main question of all this though is how do Italians afford everything. Is it really because of the family dynamic? As in parents buying everything for children then they buy everything for their children etc etc?
All that I’ve written in no way means I don’t like Rome or Italy. I will definately be back but I could never EVER live here in a flying pink fit. And yes I know no ones asking me to haha. And yes I understand there are cultural differences in the way Italians live their life and bring up their family. I just wonder why they seem to have everything money and material wise but everything still seems to be crumbling down around them.
This is just my two cents and opinion, ciao.
Alex Roe says
Hi Jess,
Thanks for your comment. The way I read what you’ve written is that you agree partly with me – on the subject of Italians seemingly having no money, but having rather a lot!
As for Italians letting their country fall apart – I’ve never understood this.
Yes, Italians can give be rude -until you know them, then many become as nice as pie!
Best,
Alex
maurice says
Hi, I often wonder about people living in Italy.
Does any one see Italy without wearing very large pink glasses ? Mortgages? Italians use the bank of Mum &Dad , a lot of them get married when the parents buy the the house or flat, so no need to struggle for deposit etc. !! Italy is beautiful !? Does anyone see the , the ravage that is been done to the towns and countryside , the shanty towns (baraccopoli) around any town (Rome has 15 or more) the illegal dumps, the pollution of air and water, the rubbish in the street, the huge number of legal or illegal immigrants bent on crime , drugs, prostitution ,the defacing of every surface available, be it the Metro ,vans lorry,building and monuments. Come on guys, remove the spectacles ,look at Italy winter weather, and tropical summers ,look at the crime ,look at the politics and tell me where all this wonder is .
Alex Roe says
Hi Maurice,
I think you will find that many Italians do not see Italy through rose tinted glasses. Many Italians are aware that all is not right.
There are problems, but then most countries have them, however, at the end of the day, the quality of life in Italy is not that bad – with the exception of a few situations – not as bad as some make it out to be.
As for mum and dad paying for son’s and daughter’s houses – remember that the same progeny will pay for the houses of their children. I don’t think this is bad – far from it, I’d love to be able to do the same for my own son.
Thanks for commenting.
Best,
Alex
F says
Hi Alex.
I really like your blog: it shows Italy from a different perspective.
Regarding people with fancy cars but 1000 E salary, well it’s very simple: mortgages!
Young people now have to pay 30-40 years mortgages to buy a small apartment. It’s not everything so easy as it looks for you. And people just take a week or sometimes two in august but even in june or september when holidays are less expensive: I don’t know anyone who takes the whole month of august off.
20 years ago things were different: life was not so much expensive and people could afford nice houses with good furniture: maybe people you know in Italy are among those ones who are now 40-50 years old. For people aged 20-30 life is completely different! People aged 20-30 have to do 2 jobs at the same time to live independently. Salaries are very low for young people, even for graduates. I’ve been living abroad and I can assure you that quality of life for young people here is much lower than abroad. I don’t know many people who go out to dine at the restaurant very much, we usually eat at home because restaurants and bars are so expensive.
Of course for young people who still live with their parents everything is easy but really are they happy, living at 30 like they were teenagers? I don’t know
I’m sorry for my bad English.
I will continue to read you
F
Sarah La Pietra says
(I know this post is 2 years old, but I think the comments are still relevant) I entirely empathise with this perspective on”Italian life”- primarily because it highlights the outcome of the- ongoing- degradation within Italian society which leaves very few prospects for the younger generation. It’s a bleak future indeed for the next generation of Italians if effective changes cannot start to be implemented soon. By its very nature, decline is a gradual process, so it’s very difficult to perceive its full impact subjectively if you still enjoy the advantages that living in Italy provides, but I know that younger Italians are indeed much more aware (through internet and tv and greater travelling) of many aspects of life and living elsewhere in the world which offer far better conditions and opportunities to put their intelligence, skills and creativity to good use than Italy does today.
Peter says
Yup if you got a roof and some money niente problemi. But there will come a clash here the moment the pensions are not being paid anymore.
110 debt/gdp? Fiscal deficit will be more than 5% this year. Risk spread on gov deb going up.
Infrastructure is crap, lots of corruption, have you seen what italians buy in supermarkets? That’s good food? Berlusconi’s grip on the media is beyond dangerous.
One day it will blow.
Alex Roe says
Hi Peter,
Thanks for commenting.
“But there will come a clash here the moment the pensions are not being paid anymore.”
–Yes, you are right, but for many this is so far ahead in the future that they just do not worry about it. Nor to the politicians – for when the problems do arise, those around today will be but mere memories.
“110 debt/gdp? Fiscal deficit will be more than 5% this year. Risk spread on gov deb going up.”
–Yes – thought the deb/gdp ratio was higher. It’s still very high – not good.
“Infrastructure is crap” – Nope, not that bad – depends where you are.
“lots of corruption” – Yes, too much
“have you seen what italians buy in supermarkets? That’s good food?” – Can you give a few examples?
“Berlusconi’s grip on the media is beyond dangerous.” – It’s certainly not perceived as being healthy, true.
“One day it will blow.” – You could be right on this. But as to when and how, this is difficult to predict.
Best,
Alex
Cristian says
The problem is that in the past 15 years something changed.
I remember people throwing coins at Craxi (head of the socialist party and head of government at that time) when he was arrested for corruption during the tangentopoli scandal ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_pulite ).
And now? We keep getting news about corruption, and all the people say is “oh, well, they all do it”.
I’m not saying that before Italy had no corruption, non disfuncion, or anything (I’d actually say that it was worse back then), but people reactions were different. When the first socialists were arrested the heads of the party immediatly took distance from them. Ok, it was only a scene, but the public was at least expecting that kind of reaction.
Now all that the majority of the public wants to hear is some politician saying that anyone that accuse him for anything is manipulated by the rival party. That’s not a good sign.
Alex Roe says
Hi Cristian,
I think the problem might be that certain people learned from their mistakes during the mani pulite times. Now they know how to protect themselves so that they do not get caught again.
“And now? We keep getting news about corruption, and all the people say is “oh, well, they all do it”.”
Does not make what they do right, but must encourage other to do the same. Not good.
“Now all that the majority of the public wants to hear is some politician saying that anyone that accuse him for anything is manipulated by the rival party.”
–this excuse should wear a little thin after a while – at least we can hope so.
Thanks for commenting.
Best,
Alex
PS Sorry for not having replied sooner – things have been a little weird this evening!
Di says
Although … Beppe Grillo’s latest take just arrived in my inbox.
http://www.beppegrillo.it/en/2009/09/the_intellectuals.html
Di says
Well … so many thoughts, then as I read through the comments, I thought ‘okay, other people know a lot more than me’ … but ut here I go anyway … just 2 cents worth.
1. I would rather visit Italy than the States – Italy welcomes me and doesn’t require my fingerprints on entry to the country or any other farcial thing like that.
2. The ‘corruption’ in Italy has perhaps … and I only say ‘perhaps’, slowed down Italy’s decline into the American model of life – the high speed, long working hours, short holidays, consumption kind of society that New Zealand started to follow back in the 90’s. I think Italy has this beautiful society – the walks in the evenings and weekends, the Sunday dinners, the family … all things I find myself nostalgic for. I saw it in Genova both times I was there and felt like an orphan mostly.
3. Italians know how to eat healthily, how to drink sensibly, and to holiday and I honestly admire that. The facts about their low mortgages, if any mortgage, stunned me. I have never heard of that … coming from New Zealand, now living in Belgium but family, the closeness of family plays a role in that?
4. Belgium has a superb social security set -up, healthcare is completely available, affordable and of a high standard however corruption in general everyday life is rampant. Working in the black, tax avoidance and etc, they just do it with a more serious and composed ‘bella figura’ I think.
5. 😉 Maybe Italy should try the following … did you know, Belgium recently ran for well over 100 days with no government governing it? It just ground on and on …
But this is more like 15 cents worth from me. I’ll hush.
Just by the way, Mr Roe, another really interesting and informative, well-written article from you 🙂
Alex Roe says
Hi Di,
I think you’ve given quite a good balanced view of the good and not so good sides to living in Italy – and the surprising parallels which exist between Italy and northern European Belgium 😉
Italy has been running without a government for over 60 years, one could argue! This means that it is no surprise that Belgium did well for 100 days!
One of the problems is that although we vote for those political types – we don’t get to choose who becomes a political type in the first place. And this is not only a problem in Italy.
Your 2 to 15+ cents are welcome any time.
Glad you found the post interesting.
Best,
Alex
Alexandra says
Here’s my 2 cents worth. LIFE in italy is great – if you don’t pay attention to everything that goes on around you and if you are relatively wealthy. The same goes for life in the USA – keep an eye and ear closed to the politics and it’s tolerable. The longer I stay anywhere, the more problems I notice. But Italy has numerous advantages – a slower life, better food, state-run free prescription drugs – over everywhere else I’ve lived.
A good point is made above: I have been wondering for some time how so many fancy cars can be on the road when the average salary italy wide is 1000 euros net per month, and the average rent is 800 euros per month.
Alex Roe says
Hi Alessandra,
What you say about keeping your head down is true, and having some cash can help smooth life in Italy.
As for the flash cars owned by people who, on paper, earn so little – well, no you know 😉
Thanks for commenting.
Best,
Alex
Alessio says
Hello Alex,
I like you analysis. Life in Italy is not bad at all: beautiful landscapes, huge artistic patrimony, very good food products, widespread wellness. For sure Italian people are lucky. The economic crisis hit many families: some friends of mine lost their job. But sadly it happened almost in every Country.
Said that, there are some serious problems – which I’m really worried about – that are poisoning the Country.
1) First of all the enormous corruption and the general lackness of ethics of the political class: many politicians, both right or left orienteed, are unprepared for the job. Usually no credit is given to merit, but to recommendation. Moreover in Italy crime pays and you may get elected (Berlusconi, Dell’Utri, etc. etc.). This is very dark.
2) Furthermore mafia is considered the biggest Italian company: Sicilia, Calabria, Campania, Puglia and Lombardia aren’t able to get rid of mafia. Italian civic sense is pretty declining. Mafia (especially ‘ndrangheta) still makes its own business. It’s well-known that in our Parliament there are senators that were found hand and glove with mafia.
3) After that, the general cultural level is still very poor: people do not read and inform theirself only watching tv; racism and omophobia are sadly becoming “popular”; and the high school system has really big big problems. What about Italian journalism, then?
Even Milan – a city I really love – would deserve a better administration. We need a change, too 🙂 New people on power… with innovative ideas, strong knowledge and high civic sense. Wealth is not enough to make a Country “healthy”…isn’t it?
Ciao!
Alex Roe says
Hi Alessio,
Thanks for commenting Good to hear from a real Italian!
“1) First of all the enormous corruption and the general lackness of ethics of the political class: many politicians, both right or left orienteed, are unprepared for the job. Usually no credit is given to merit, but to recommendation. Moreover in Italy crime pays and you may get elected (Berlusconi, Dell’Utri, etc. etc.). This is very dark.”
– Very true. Something needs to be done. But what?
“2) Furthermore mafia is considered the biggest Italian company: Sicilia, Calabria, Campania, Puglia and Lombardia aren’t able to get rid of mafia. Italian civic sense is pretty declining. Mafia (especially ‘ndrangheta) still makes its own business. It’s well-known that in our Parliament there are senators that were found hand and glove with mafia.”
This goes hand in hand with 1) above – Italians, and others, have known this for years – but no one does anything about it.
“3) After that, the general cultural level is still very poor: people do not read and inform theirself only watching tv; racism and omophobia are sadly becoming “popular”; and the high school system has really big big problems.”
– Again, this situation has been brought about intentionally, dare I say. Now, life is good for many Italians, so they do not feel the need to change anything.
Some Italians, of course, have become rich as a result of Italy being the way it is – these people are obviously happy to keep Italy the way it is too, as long as they can keep putting money in their bank accounts. Over the last 60 years, Italy’s politicians and power mongers have ensured that the Italian people have been kept just happy enough to keep them from demanding change. Even now, no one is saying ‘Hey, Mr Berlusconi, how about stepping down?’ Where are the opposition politicians, aside from Di Pietro?’
Some people, people like you, for example, know that things are not right, that corruption and mafia are not good, but you are in a minute minority.
The people who run Italy are very well entrenched, and very good at what they do – as is evidenced by Berlusconi’s election. Bringing about real change in Italy will be exceedingly difficult.
By the time Grillo and others manage to spread the word, it will be too late. It may be too late now.
“What about Italian journalism, then?” – all part of the game, I suspect 😉 That there is a little opposition keeps the people under control in that they think something is being done, hope something might change, and therefore do not do anything to bring it about. Those clever P2 people set the ball rolling years ago – and they’ve just about achieved their aims – indeed, I suspect they achieved their goals long ago.
Life is not too bad in Italy for most, so it’s probably better to just let the water flow over us.
Time for a good cup of Italian coffee!
Now, what was the title of that old Pink Floyd song – ah yes ‘Comfortably Numb’ 😉 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkJNyQfAprY
All the best,
Alex
Linda Harris says
I agree withI Alessio. After living as an American in the Florence and Sicily, I found and still find, via Italian friends, that Italy has lots of problems. In comparison to the U.S., Italians have a better quality of life, overall, but it really depends on where they live. You cannot compare Milan with Ragusa, just like you cannot compare NYC with a small town in Tennessee. As a former employee of the Italian government and Alitalia, corruption is still prevalent in Italian life. The one thing I still find disturbing is how many Italians are still quite insulated about other ethnicities in general, even with the internet. Too much emphaisis is still placed on the ” la bella figura! I work in the U.S. with Italian firms from every region on a frequent basis, therefore, my awareness of Italian problems has not diminished.
Alex Roe says
Hi Linda,
Alessio is right. Italy is not short of problems, not by any means. But, when all is said and done, it’s still not a bad place to live.
Interesting to hear you say that in comparison to the USA, Italians have a better quality of life – I do know a few Americans who would agree with you. I also believe that the quality of life in Italy is better than that of the UK too.
It’s true that life in Milan does not reflect life throughout Italy – but from what I’ve seen of Italy, and I have visited quite a few places, life looks OK in many places. As once said, I’d quite like to live in every single one of Italy’s regions before deciding where to live in Italy – and even then, I think the decision would not be easy!
“Italians are still quite insulated about other ethnicities in general, even with the internet.” Very true – and something of a sign that Italians are happy with the way things are.
“Too much emphaisis is still placed on the ” la bella figura!” – Oh yes – appearance counts here, big time – if you are Italian. I think Italians take the ‘bella figura’ thing far too seriously – but it’s the way Italy is. Berlusca is try to restore his bella figura now.
Thanks for commenting.
Best,
Alex
Linda Harris says
Dear Alexandra,
Ideally, it would be fantastic to be wealthy enough to go back and forth between both the U.S. and Italy. Even though one may be wealthy in Italy, god forbid a family member needs expert superior medical care; they’ll go abroad first to find it, if they can; even sell their house, if necessary! Since most Italians bascially have accepted the ‘status quo’, nothing will chang for now. Fashion, design, furniture, food, cars, music, jewelry, architecture, etc. will continue to flourish there without limitations, thank goodness. But the concept of ‘for the people, by the people’ just won’t happen in Italian society. This is not to say that Italian hospitality, impulsivity, creativity, and all the fantastic aspects of Italian society will suffer. However, if you are not wealthy, you have to depend on the many injustices within Italy’s system. Maybe due to my American nature, I prefer living in the U.S. where I can complain, protest, write my senator, call my congressman, and even get hold of a reporter to tell my tale of woe. I’d be just as happy with a nice 3 month trip to Sardegna or Como, and then return home.
Nan says
I think what she says is true, but it is the frustration of an Italian citizen and not the traveler or casual observer. (I’m sure my opinions on the US healthcare debate would be different from a non-US citizen.) I think the frustration for an Italian is that they see an exceptional population that routinely settles for less. All I know is that it is far too easy to judge from the outside… 🙂
Alex Roe says
Hi again Nan,
“I think what she says is true, but it is the frustration of an Italian citizen and not the traveler or casual observer.” – Yes, I would agree.
But do Italians really want change? – Which is a point someone else made in a comment on another post – Answer – no, not enough to want to really do something to provoke it. They generally have very good lives.
Yes, us outsiders who are inside tend to have differing views from those who are still ‘inside’ – one of the advantages of living in another country, I feel. You see things in a new light – both where you are, and, where you came from.
I think everyone should try life in another country for a year or two – but not in some expat enclave.
Best,
Alex
Andy says
Perhaps she was just having a really bad day when she wrote the piece. It’s the build up of frustration that means I write such things, not because it actually is so.
Alex Roe says
Hi Andy,
Actually, Laura Kiss’s comments are very Italian – lots of negative, without the positive. One could argue that she too is one of the people who she claims are “very immature and childish”.
With the greatest of respect to Ms Kiss, I’m sure she has a nice house(s!), nice clothes, nice car, mobile phones and no shortage of cash either – but I could be wrong 😉
All the best,
Alex
matteo says
yeah but another thing that u have to consider is that we have got the most expensive tax than in all the Europe but we have got the littlest salary. Someone live with just 400€ for month and another thing to consider is that we have got all the politicians (ALL) that steal money and then u have to add the Mafia into the government
Alex Roe says
Hi Matteo – remember that this post was written in 2009. Life in Italy has certainly got tougher since then. And it is true that Italy’s taxes are far too high (and far too complex) and Italy’s salaries are low compared to other nations but do include pensions contributions.
And I know all about Italy’s dodgy politicians who simply cannot help Italy realise its full potential. Poor management is one of the reasons why the mafia (which has moved north) propers.
Also note that the title of this post is a question and that was intentional so I could discover whether or not people agree with me.
Best,
Alex
Nan says
It’s not bad…it’s just not easy. 😉
Alex Roe says
Hi Nan,
Good point – life is not always easy here. But then life was not always that easy in the UK for me.
I’m still in Italy!
Best,
Alex
ReneS says
Life is so different in Napoli instead of Milan. I felt like being in Romenia or countries of that order….
Alex Roe says
Ah, Naples. Yes, it’s one of the places with complications in Italy – yet those from Naples love the city – so it can’t be all that bad.
Best,
Alex