Over on Man of Roma’s thoughtful blog, I made a bold statement. What I said is that the UK is in a greater state of decline than Italy.
Now, I can’t go around saying things like this without giving some evidence, so here it is.
- Senseless violence – stories of knifings and shootings seem to be an almost daily occurrence, and the culprits, more often than not, come from cultures which are not strictly English. This leads to the second piece of evidence.
- Appalling levels of integration. Britain opened the flood gates to immigrants many years ago, but did little else. Now there are Islamic terror cells springing up all over the place. I mean, was it a good idea to encourage people with such diverse religious beliefs to come to the UK? Or are we just seeing the results of yet more politicians who simply stay in power and do little else?
- State education quality is dire. The politically correct bunch have managed to achieve their dubious aim. This aim was to eliminate competition and make it easy for anyone with less than half a brain to obtain some qualifications. And just about anyone can get degrees now, and good ones too. Why? Simple, the universities receive greater funding if more people pass, especially if they pass with better grades. Even secondary education has become so performance oriented that quality is at rock bottom levels.
- Many English people want to leave the UK. English TV is full of programs about finding a dream home in any number of locations around the world. You can find more than a few Brits dotted all over the world, including quite a number in Italy. People are proud to be British, but pleased to escape.
- The formerly venerable House of Lords has become full of government cronies who are politically correct to the point of insanity. They seem to take respect for human rights to extreme lengths. In the UK now, if you come from some country with a crackpot regime, murder a few people, and are caught, you need have no fear of being deported. All because the lovie dovies fear that you may come to a sticky end in your country of origin. Really those who continue to practice their wicked ways need to be kicked out and face the consequences of their actions, then at least others would think twice about coming to the UK and wrecking lives.
- The great British bobbie has been legislated out of existence, just about. Would you believe that British policemen are actually leaving the country to find work in countries where their services are better appreciated? You can read more about the former English policeman behind the Copper’s Blog who is now in Canada in my ‘The Dark Side of the UK and the Free Press‘ post.
I’m sure others can give more examples as to why post-Blair Britain is no longer great. Do I think Blair did great things for Britain. No. If anything, the man dragged the place down even faster.
At the end of the day though, it’s not too much of a surprise that the UK should be spiralling downwards even faster than Italy. The UK is ten years ahead of Italy in many respects, which means it hit a trough more recently. And the UK suffers, in the same way as Italy, from that bane of modern society – the career politician.
Remember Neil Kinnock – former head of the Labour party? He hated people with posh accents, but with his knighthood, and all the dosh he makes from the European Parliament, this good socialist is laughing all the way to the champagne bar, as many career politicos do. They would make, sorry, are great actors.
You can say what you like about Italy, but at least the place has not become politically correct to the point of self destruction.
Does the UK have equivalents of Di Pietro and Beppe Grillo, or, even better Clementina Forleo? I’m a bit out of touch, so enlighten me. If the UK does not, it sure as heck needs them.
Man of Roma says
Alex,
I didn’t mean that here friends are helpful (they are everywhere in the world). I meant even the man of the street here can helpful and full of humanitas (an important element of the evelasting Italian – and Roman – mind).
The person “crowding pavements, not stopping to let people cross the road, not apologising when bumping into others”, that same ‘cafone’ lol, I mean, is very likely to help you if you are in real need, even if he/she just met you a few minutes before.
I know it sounds weird, but as far as I can tell, it is true. Ok, enough with the advocate’s role. 🙂
We say: il mondo è bello perché vario (the world is beautiful because of its variety)
All the best
AlexR says
@MoR
“Someone said: “the average Roman has little to no consideration for others” … Another: “I think that should read ‘the average Italian has…’ “.
As far as I can tell there are areas in this country where there is civic behaviour (= consideration for others and common good etc.) and areas where there is not.”
First of all, ‘average’ does not mean all, however, those from the UK and US do tend to notice that Italians are less considerate than those from the aforementioned two countries.
Perhaps Italians don’t realise that they are being inconsiderate because the situations in which they act so are, in the overall scheme of things, quite insignificant.
Things like crowding pavements, not stopping to let people cross the road, not holding doors open for people, and not apologising when bumping into others etc are not really big deals.
However, when you come from a country where people who act in this way are looked upon as being ‘caffone’, then it may help one understand how seemingly inconsiderate Italians are viewed by the residents of other countries.
“I asked him: “Why don’t you go back to London? What keeps you here?” He replied: “the good nature of the people. In London people are kind and correct, but if you really need help ….”.”
I think I would agree with this, indeed, once you become friends with an Italian, you wonder just why many act so inconsiderately. Italians are good people, and do what they say, but then I had some great friends in England, good people who helped me out on more than one occasion.
What I have noticed is that well educated Italians are as well mannered and considerate, if not more so, than their English counterparts.
@Rob
“Yeah, as far as I know Man of Roma is right. I am generally a fierce critic of the inefficiency of the average public agencies, here in Italy” – this is an example of lack of consideration for others.
“the smile of our Italian women, not to speak of Italian food” – Yes, Italian women are enchanting. When I refer to the views in Italy, I’m not just talking about the countryside…
If Italy were to add a little more consideration for others to its already extensive list of advantages, such as women and food etc (and wine!), it would be one of the best places in the world. For the moment, it is ‘only’ a good place! (and better than the UK!).
Great to hear from ‘real’ Italians – thanks for ‘jumping in’ MoR and Rob!
All the very best,
Alex
Wind Rose Hotel says
Yeah, as far as I know Man of Roma is right. I am generally a fierce critic of the inefficiency of the average public agencies, here in Italy, but “the good nature of the people” is a fact, in my view. When I lived in London I would appreciate the life over there–and I am still a sincere friend of Britain, as I once told Alex–but I am bound to say that I missed … the smile of our Italian women, not to speak of Italian foods, ça va sans dire …
Man of Roma says
My name being Man of Roma, let me be the advocate of my people 😉
Someone said: “the average Roman has little to no consideration for others” … Another: “I think that should read ‘the average Italian has…’ “.
As far as I can tell there are areas in this country where there is civic behaviour (= consideration for others and common good etc.) and areas where there is not. I remember a Harvard research on this topic.
Much depends on the history of this nation, sprouted from different states which were governed differently during the centuries.
Rome is a mixture of all that is bad and good in this country. Surely the average Roman seems to care less about others, and can be even rough at first.
The thing is that in this country, in Rome and elsewhere (with the exception of some parts of Northern Italy, Piemonte, for example) people know no hypocrisy. I have the impression that in many Anglo-Saxon countries people are so good to one another, but what happens if your scratch this surface of correctness?
I met this artist born in the London suburbs. He lived in Rome since he was 20. Now he is penniless and old. I asked him: “Why don’t you go back to London? What keeps you here?” He replied: “the good nature of the people. In London people are kind and correct, but if you really need help ….”.
AlexR says
@Lisa
“I think Italy has handled it very poorly and everyone- citizens & immigrants- are suffering the consequences.”
Italy, I agree, is not doing a great job on the immigration front – but this is not an easy subject to deal with, and with open borders and the Med that can be crossed, mixed in with poor admin, and its difficult to know the size of the problem.
Still, immigrants in Italy a) seem to be setting up businesses left right and centre, and b) are being taken on by Italian companies (albeit with odd employment contracts…read black).
More could be done, but still, there do not appear to be the same levels of racial hatred here in Italy as there were the UK. The fact that Italians dislike confrontation, in some respects, makes it easier to be different here.
“the average Roman has little to no consideration for others” – I think that should read ‘the average Italian has…’ This is very much an Italian thing, and having consideration for others is not taught in the family here. Not sure why, and this is odd in this Papal state. US and UK people are much more considerate towards others, and it is good to hear others say this, thus confirming that I’m not just an embittered old expat!
@Joe – Italian national pastimes – football, tax evasion, and complaining. You are right, this is true. Italians do go on, but all of them seem to have a car, a mobile phone, a house and, in the main, little or no debt.
‘naivete’ – Yes, true, Italians are not able too see beyond their own borders. Levels of violence in Italy are very low. A few Italians should pass an evening or two, preferably Saturday nights with the police in a medium size English town – then they would realise just how different things are in Italy. I won’t mention the US – the kinds of ugliness, as you point out, which go on there would shock Italians to the bone, but also wake them up as to how ‘gentle’ Italy is.
Putting the army on the streets here very much demonstrates just how naive Italy is. Things are nowhere near as bad as to merit the use of soldiers on the streets here! It is an incredible move.
@Any – I second your opinion on lack of consideration for others – totally different from the UK – which is definitely better in this respect.
Great discussion! Cheers!
Alex
Andy says
@Lisa
I still don’t see eye to eye with you on the immigration issue. I think Italy has handled it very poorly and everyone- citizens & immigrants- are suffering the consequences.
Hear, hear! Personally, I think that it’s not a matter of handling it badly but not handling it at all!
…maybe in Milan things are better than they are in Rome because the average Roman has little to no consideration for others…
Nope. I’m pretty sure it’s much the same here. It thought it was just the Milanese but, from your comment, perhaps not
Joe T says
Lisa and Alex –
I found this really good ‘primer’ on the American school system, which discusses the role of sports at length:
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AmericanSchoolSystem
Joe
Joe T says
Hi Lisa –
First, surely every country has social pecking orders in their schools, but my main point was about the millions spent on organized sports in US high schools.
Europeans have no concept of this. They may associate sport with school, but don’t realize that in America, organized sports teams virtually define the existence and identity of a school, and take up a huge part of a school’s budget. They are officially treated on equal par with academics, and unofficially, sports are often valued more than academics, in terms of how a school defines itself.
This leads not just to a “pecking order”, but to a particularly American type of pecking order which values physical aggression and a “might makes right” attitude.
I think the 100+ year tradition of organized sports in American schools goes a long way in explaining, for instance, the aggressive nature of US foreign policy.
Something to think about, anyway.
With regard to whether Italy is worse off than other countries, as a native-born Italian who grew up in the USA, I can say that the number one attribute that characterizes the Italian race (at least in Italy) is COMPLAINING.
It’s part of the Italian national character to complain, and if there’s little to complain about, by God they will find something, and then magnify it so out of proportion that you’d think the sky was falling.
The second national characteristic of Italians is naivete’.
If Italians think the sky is falling and civilization is ending in Italy, then they are truly naive, because they must not have stepped foot in the USA.
Italians don’t know what true social disintegration, out-of-control greed, rampant and senseless violence, and societal/family/community breakdown is.
Let them live in the USA for a year or two and that will set them straight.
I could regale you with stories of daily, hideous violent crime from right here in Las Vegas (a community of 1 million people and not just a tourist/gambling mecca), that would make most Italians’ eyeballs pop out, if they could even believe it wasn’t just some Hollywood movie plot.
lisa says
Every US high school has its social “pecking order” where the “jocks” (i.e., student athletes) are invariably on the top of the heap……….
In response to Joe T’s comment- this is true in any and every country. It’s not just an American phenomenon. “Bullismo” has become a huge problem in Italy, especially in the cities.
Alex, great post and great discussion! I still don’t see eye to eye with you on the immigration issue. I think Italy has handled it very poorly and everyone- citizens & immigrants- are suffering the consequences.
As for the civilized behavior, maybe in Milan things are better than they are in Rome because the average Roman has little to no consideration for others, whereas in all the time I spent in US & UK, I never felt this.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess 😉
AlexR says
@Joe – thanks for the info on the US school system. Things sound bleak from what you say.
Sport is great, but teaching people how to kick balls around is not something that should be a primary aim of any education system. Daft.
@MoR – happy to hear that you found this post interesting – I blame you for it!
While it is true that Italy has many problems, many of them are new. In the UK, the problems are not new, and the country is closer to depravity than Italy. Indeed, the UK was sliding before I came to Italy, and that was a long time ago.
In Italy, there is still time to sort things out, whereas in the UK, time is fast running out.
Kind regards to you both,
Alex
Man of Roma says
Ciao Alex,
Great post and great comments! I do not have time to ponder a good comment but, as I said in my blog, it seems odd to me that Italy is in better shape than the UK. Politics is getting very close to depravity (as we can read in all Newspapers), economy is stagnating more than in the UK, one fourth of the country (not all South though, which amounts to one third) is still Third World (with cons and pros, it is the theme of my blog lol), people are more and more indoctrinated by a moronic TV which is partially ruled by our Prime Minister etc. etc. the list of woes being so long.
Ok, there are also good things. For example, the State education, yes, when I was a child it was a very good one (Fascism had carried out a good reform in this field thanks to Gentile, an enlightened intellectual, in spite of all the wrong things Fascism did) and still our primary and high schools (I am an ex teacher) are probably a bit better than they are in the UK and USA, and rely on a 30% (or a little bit more) of heroes who still do a good job for almost nothing (I won’t mention our universities who have problems, with some exceptions). But for how long? (the education effectiveness trend being downhill …)
All the best
MoR
Joe T says
Alex – the US approach to primary and secondary schools is increasingly the “warehousing” of students.
So much time is devoted to (mostly failing) attempts to control and discipline students, as well as administrative and bureaucratic issues, that very little learning actually takes place in the typical American classroom.
Lessons are so watered down as to be ludicrous. There is an endless vicious cycle of poor pupil performance, lowering expectations, and the further dumbing down of the curriculum.
Contrarily, the emphasis on organized team sports in US public schools has always been immense, and this is one thing that has not changed.
The typical US high school, for example, will spend a very significant amount of its budget on these organized sports, such as American football and basketball (baseball is typically regarded as an “after school” or weekend sport to be pursued in private leagues).
Every school has its football and basketball teams, with a “mascot” (team name, like the Eagles, the Bears, the Cougars, etc.) “School spirit” is incessantly promoted and there are cheerleading squads, innumerable “pep rallies” (mandatory attendance for all students), and other activities which bleed away time that would otherwise be used on academic pursuits.
Every US high school has its social “pecking order” where the “jocks” (i.e., student athletes) are invariably on the top of the heap. They get all the dates with the pretty girls (like the cheerleaders). Kids who are academically gifted, interested in things like science or math, or who actually read something outside of the watered-down curriculum are socially suspect and branded “nerds” or “geeks”, and are, needless to say, at or near the bottom of the pecking order, sometimes actually below the drug dealers and “gang bangers”.
Even with the current precipitous decline of US schools, the “jock” system of spending millions on organized sports teams continues unabated, with the force of a locomotive, and is the only thing that really holds most US high schools together, in terms of identity or parent or community interest.
AlexR says
Hi Joe,
Interesting observations from someone who knows the US, UK and Italy pretty well.
“Italy has problems that are uniquely its own.” – very true, even if it’s starting to develop US/UK type problems.
As for education – Italy, the US and the UK all have problems – but it sounds as though public – in the US sense – schools are not good in the states.
Italian schools are possibly a little better than UK schools, in that pupils here tend to have more respect for teachers, whereas in the UK – respect for teachers is non-existent , especially in poorer areas.
You’d think by now, that public/state education would be better than it actually is in all three countries. In Italy investment in education is limited, even if the teachers here are, by and large, not at all bad – at least the one’s I’ve come across have been very bright, even if their training may be lacking.
In the UK, teachers are still not widely regarded, and teaching, as the old saying goes, is what you do when you can’t do nuffink else (Did I just say this -I’m a teacher!), however, few realise how important good, and well trained, teachers are. Trouble is, nobody seems to know how to train teachers properly – again – lack of thought and investment. Psychologists, level headed ones, need to be deeply involved in teaching, and we need many more ‘experimental’ schools, as indeed, Italy has/had.
Heck, our future depends upon our children, but this fact seems to escape many.
Funny old world.
Alex
Joe T says
Alex –
Great post, great topic.
I have spent enough time in the US, UK, and Italy to discern that without any doubt, the US is in a greater state of decline, paralysis, and overall social, economic and cultural degeneration than Italy or the UK.
The UK comes in second. It is like the US in a lot of ways, and many of the social contagions that afflict the US are also affecting Britain.
Italy has problems that are uniquely its own. The US economy is, in certain areas (like high tech and the internet) buttressed by a highly entrepreneurial culture, and a very business-friendly environment. We also have an excellent (if expensive) system of university education.
On the downside, the quality of primary and secondary schools in the US, is, in the main, VASTLY lower than anything on the European continent.
To fully understand how bad most US schools are, you must actually live in the United States for a while, and send your kids there.
I don’t have kids, but I have vowed to myself that if and when I do, I will never send them to US primary schools or high schools, unless I am living in one of the very few enclaves where good quality schools exist in the US (and those places are ONLY on the east coast of the US).
The US is in such an advanced state of social decline that to fully appreciate it, you must actually come here and spend time here looking around — and not in Midtown Manhattan, Beverly Hills, or the Las Vegas Strip — but where average citizens actually live with their families.
AlexR says
Hi Lisa,
Thanks for your comments.
“Senseless violence has become just as common here in Italy as it is in UK or US.” – Yes, I agree – but this is quite a recent phenomena here – the US is the world leader amongst developed nations, but the UK is catching up.
And, yes, the integration of immigrants is not smooth here, but the authorities are putting the wishes of its citizens first – which should be the case, not as in the UK where its citizens appear to be the ones required to integrate.
“At least life in convenient, civilized & more comfortable in UK.” – Convenient – yes, civilised – it was. Comfortable – good question – I still prefer the quality of life here to that back in the UK.
Interesting – I’d like to hear other opinions on this.
Maybe someone will Stumble this.
Cheers,
Alex
lisa says
Dunno, I still think Italy is in much worse shape than UK…
Senseless violence has become just as common here in Italy as it is in UK or US.
As am sure you have also noticed, integration for immigrants is not going so smoothly here either. In Rome we’ve seen an increase in racial crimes since the new government took charge.
State education is pitiful and outdated here.
At least life in convenient, civilized & more comfortable in UK. At least that’s how I see it…
Wind Rose Hotel says
Hi Alex,
I quoted your post. Well, I would prefer Clementina Forleo, but, to tell the truth, I am thinking about Italy, where I would change ten thousand of Di Pietro and Grillo for only a couple more of Clementina …
Best
Rob