PLEASE READ THIS:
I would like to underline that I do not suggest or condone the non-payment of fines. If I did, I would probably end up in big trouble here in Italy, and seeing as I live, work and have family here, I would like to avoid such a situation. If, by chance, someone has read this post, the comments, and then decided not to pay, then do not blame me if you end up with problems as a result. Any and all advice I have provided to others has been and is provided informally – I am not an authority, and have not made any claim to be. For conclusive advice on the payment of traffic fines received as a result of a trip abroad, I recommend contacting motoring organisations, embassies or the police in your country of origin.
Sorry about the legalish stuff, but I thought covering my back may not be such a bad idea. You never know nowadays and this blog is public (Indeed, I have now been lucky enough to have been accused of being a scammer, I am not, but see the comments below and make up your own mind.) Now you can read this post… and wade through the 900+ comments!
IMPORTANT UPDATE: May 2013
While chatting with a tourism business operator in Tuscany today May 25, 2013, I was told that car rental companies now have a database which shows if you have not paid fines received for driving offences in Italy or in other parts of Europe. If you do not pay the fine at the time you attempt to rent a car, you will not be allowed to rent it.
One person, I understand, managed to avoid paying overdue fines by renting a car in his wife’s name.
It is not clear which car rental companies in Italy are using this database, nor for how long, although I was told that the system could have been in place for as long as three years.
What this means is that by ignoring, not paying or not appealing fines for driving offences in Italy you may cause yourself problems if you come to Italy again and attempt to rent a car.
If anyone has had experience of this, please let us know in a comment.
END of update.
IMPORTANT UPDATE: January 2013
If you are renting a car for a trip in Italy, some car rental agencies are now offering passes for entry into limited traffic (ZTL) zones in some of Italy’s cities and towns. Information on this is still rather sketchy, although the website of Ireland’s Department of Foreign Affairs does mention it. See the section Road Use
City center hotels should know about the existence of these passes, as should car rental companies.
Having one of these passes should help you avoid these pesky fines.
END of update.
Please read Section 1 BEFORE leaving a comment – thanks!
There are now three sections:
- Section 1 – the Important ‘need to know’ stuff – read this if you have received a notification of fine or a fine
- Section 2 – General background on the issue of receiving fines for driving offences committed in Italy – read this information if you wish to go the whole hog and pay a lawyer
- Section 3 – General background on the issue of receiving fines for driving offences committed in Italy
Don’t forget to read the most recent comments as they may well answer any questions you have – many of the questions are similar – Thanks.
Section 1 – the Important ‘need to know’ stuff
UPDATED 4 September 2010
Summary of How to Deal with Fines received while in Italy
I’ve been getting lots of email from people on the subject of fines, so instead of repeating myself many times over, here’s how I understand the situation – BUT I am not a lawyer.
What happens:
- You receive a ‘notification of fine’ – the notice of payment before official notification – from a fine collection agency for some infraction or other which you allegedly committed while in Italy.
Your options:
- Pay the fine or fines at the time of the notification. No further action will be taken – but you are not obliged to pay.
- Wait until the actual fines arrive – usually a letter you have to sign for. The Official Notification must be sent by registered/ recorded deliver mail.
- Write to the agency which sent the notification in an attempt to carry out a form of ‘informal’ appeal. While the agency is not bound to do anything, and cannot cancel the fines, it can contact the municipality in which the infraction took place and bring further information, such as extenuating circumstances, to the municipality’s attention. This might cause the fine or fines to be cancelled or reduced.
What are the grounds for the ‘informal’ appeal?
- You have a blue invalid badge because either you have a registered disability or you were transporting someone with a registered disability. Even if you did not have the badge, but were transporting someone with a registered disability – the municipality might reduce the amount of, or cancel the fine or fines.
- You had a hotel booking made before you entered a limited traffic area with a hotel within a limited traffic or ZTL area of an Italian town or city. You would need to provide documentary proof of the booking – by producing a receipt showing for how long you stayed and when you checked out.
- Factual errors. Wrong car, or driver, wrong registration/licence plate.
If your ‘informal appeal’ did not work and you receive the actual fines. What then?
- You can pay. Payments from outside Italy can be effected via credit card or bank transfer. This perhaps the easiest way to bring the situation to a neat conclusion and is what the vast majority of people should really do – but read once more ‘What are the grounds for the ‘informal’ appeal?’ above.
The Formal Appeal
- You can register a formal appeal within 60 days of receiving the actual fine to either the prefect or the justice of the peace for the Italian city, town or area in which you allegedly committed the offence.
Now it becomes complicated, and, potentially, expensive. You do one or the other, not both.
Appeal to a Prefect
If you lodge an appeal with a prefect, which is easier, you may lose and be ordered to pay double the fine. This is the risk inherent in appealing. And appeals to Italian prefects are, I’m told, rarely successful. The fine collection agencies, from what I’ve seen, tend to advise people to appeal to prefects. In the main this is suggested because it is easier for foreign drivers to do, indeed, the EMO agency helpfully provides those who ask with all the necessary appeal documentation in English.
But, you can, if you like:
Appeal to a Justice of the Peace
If you appeal to a justice of the peace, you will have to make a payment of €38, and you really will need the services of an Italian lawyer to lodge an effective appeal.
The advantage of this option is that appeals to Italian justices of the peace are more likely to be successful – indeed, a good lawyer should be able to give you an idea as to whether an appeal is likely to succeed or not, before it goes to court. Italian justices of the peace do sometimes annul or reduce fines, but do not always double them. However, as lawyers the world over will confirm, judges can be unpredictable creatures, so the outcome of any appeal can never be 100% certain.
Should an appeal to a justice of the peace be unsuccessful, an appeal to a higher level court in Italy may be possible – but it will be very expensive, and time consuming. Legal fees alone are likely to exceed the amount of any fine.
Time limits
Note first, and as I mentioned at the start of this section, the time the Italian authorities have to send out fines is changing – but one crucial aspect is not – the statutory time limit – which is the length of time which passes before a case can no longer be perused under Italian law. This period is 5 years from the date of the offence was committed, as far as both Al, who has been reading up on this, and I am aware.
While ignoring these fines is an option, it is not an option I can recommend. Not paying may cause you problems if you return to Italy within 5 years or so of an alleged offence.
Other updates follow, but most of what you need to know is in Section 1. Section 2 below is merely supporting information which may or may not prove useful
With thanks to Al who has been throwing lots of information and documents at me recently – I hope I’ve managed to summarise the situation succinctly, and, more to the point, accurately. Remember though, I am not a lawyer.
Corrections received from reader Al – thanks, Al!
Prevention is often better than cure.
Some readers, iPhone users, for example, may be interested to hear that there is an iPhone application which can warn you of the presence of speed cameras – it’s called iSpeedCam Italy, and can be bought here for a couple of dollars: iSpeedCam Italy on Apple’s iTunes store.
For those who do not have iPhones, try Amazon.com or Amazon.co.uk for GPS speed camera detectors - but before you buy something, make sure it will work in Italy. Note that the older type ‘radar detectors’ are illegal in most European countries, and you will be fined if you are caught using one.
Section 2 – General background on the issue of receiving fines for driving offences committed in Italy
Revisions to Italy’s highway code have been approved by the Italian parliament – new law n.120, dated 29 July, 2010. Since August 13th 2010, the amount of time traffic fines have to be sent out to Italian residents has been reduced from 150 days to 90 days – Art. 201,1 – Notificazione delle violazioni (Notifcation of violations)
For foreign residents the 360 day period for sending out fines is unchanged.
Art. 201,1 – Notificazione delle violazioni.
Qualora la violazione non possa essere immediatamente contestata, il verbale, con gli estremi precisi e dettagliati della violazione e con la indicazione dei motivi che hanno reso impossibile la contestazione immediata, deve, entro novanta giorni (within 90 days) dall’accertamento, essere notificato all’effettivo trasgressore o, quando questi non sia stato identificato e si tratti di violazione commessa dal conducente di un veicolo a motore, munito di targa, ad uno dei soggetti indicati nell’art. 196, quale risulta dai pubblici registri alla data dell’accertamento.
Se si tratta di ciclomotore la notificazione deve essere fatta all’intestatario del contrassegno di identificazione.
Nel caso di accertamento della violazione nei confronti dell’intestatario del veicolo che abbia dichiarato il domicilio legale ai sensi dell’articolo 134, comma 1-bis, la notificazione del verbale e’ validamente eseguita quando sia stata effettuata presso il medesimo domicilio legale dichiarato dall’interessato.
Qualora l’effettivo trasgressore od altro dei soggetti obbligati sia identificato successivamente alla commissione della violazione la notificazione puo’ essere effettuata agli stessi entro novanta giorni dalla data in cui risultino dai pubblici registri o nell’archivio nazionale dei veicoli l’intestazione del veicolo e le altre indicazioni identificative degli interessati o comunque dalla data in cui la pubblica amministrazione e’ posta in grado di provvedere alla loro identificazione.
Per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento.
Quando la violazione sia stata contestata immediatamente al trasgressore, il verbale deve essere notificato ad uno dei soggetti individuati ai sensi dell’articolo 196 entro cento giorni dall’accertamento della violazione. (When you are ‘caught in the act’ – parking in the wrong place, for example or flagged down by a policeman, the fine must be served on the person who committed the offence within 100 days of the violation being committed)
The relevance the EC -v- Italian Republic case no C-224/00 as grounds for an appeal (case no C-224/00 is mentioned below) still stands, but as Al, who’s been kindly offering lots of advice to people leaving comments on this post has, rightly, pointed out, quoting such a lofty case is not likely to get anyone anywhere during an initial appeal. To stand any chance of using the C-224/oo argument successfully would mean taking the matter to higher level courts – read engaging the services of a lawyer – the cost of which is likely to be much, much higher than the level of the fines involved.
At the end of the day, the situation for foreign motorists who commit driving offences in Italy has not changed.
Alex Roe – end of September 4 revisions
UPDATE 17 February 2010 – please also see the 6th April 2010 Update below
Revised: 7 March 2010
Reader Peter has very kindly drawn my attention to the called EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00. The text of the case which is available in English and other European languages, can be seen here:
Judgment of the Court (Sixth Chamber) of 19 March 2002.
Commission of the European Communities v Italian Republic.
Failure by a Member State to fulfil its obligations – Article 6 of the EC Treaty (now, after amendment, Article 12 EC) – Difference in treatment of persons contravening the highway code according to the place of registration of their vehicle – Proportionality.
In essence, it does look as though the fines European Union citizens have been receiving are, and always have been invalid.
Again, I would reiterate that I am not a lawyer, so I cannot be sure, but I would repeat Peter’s suggestion that if you are a European Union resident and you have received a fine more than 210 days after an offence, you should write back quoting case no C-224/00, and saying you will write to MEPs etc about this. If this does not get the Italian authorities off your back – then speak to a lawyer (class actions are possible in Italy now -and I know a good firm of lawyers too!).
In summary – if you received a fine for any motoring offence after 210 days, and you are an EU citizen, you may be able to refuse to pay on the basis of C-224/00.
And here is a comment from reader Pablo, dated 7 March 2010, which other people may find interesting:
Many posts above complain about the Italian authorities’ delay in notifying traffic penalties and their insistence on communicating in Italian. Fear not – the law is on your side, as I think both issues contravene the European Convention on Human Rights, specifically Part I Article 6:
“1 – In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgement shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.
2 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
3 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.”
NOTE: This should not be confused with Article 6 of the EC Treaty referred to in Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update” at the top of this blog.
Key words/phrases italicised above are “within a reasonable time”, “presumed innocent”, “promptly”, “in a language which he understands”, “in detail” and “free … interpreter”.
You must be told promptly of an accusation – presumably so you can recall the circumstances of the incident and collect any evidence you need while memories are still fresh. It follows that if you were not told promptly, then you have obviously been denied the opportunity of “a fair & public hearing within a reasonable time”. Thus it seems the Italian law allowing up to a year to tell you about an accusation is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. As Mike, James & Peter have mentioned, a UK prosecuting authority must serve a Notice of Intended Prosecution within 2 weeks of an alleged traffic offence, and a penalty notice or court summons within 6 months. If the UK can do it, so could Italy – if it wanted to. You can form your own opinion of why Italian authorities delay sending a penalty notice for a year or more. My guess is it’s to reduce the likelihood of drivers remembering what happened or having kept car hire paperwork & hotel/restaurant/fuel/shopping receipts (to prove when & where you were) after such a long time. Depending on its timing and the extent of detail given, notification of a violation (such as an “amicable” EMO invitation to accept a fine) might satisfy the requirement to inform you promptly of an accusation. But the penalty notice sent by registered post is the important one, so if it arrives after 210 days you can reject it as denying you the option of a hearing “within a reasonable time”.
Regarding time limits, if you receive a penalty notice ask the car rental Co for a copy of documents showing when the police asked for the renter’s data and when they were given, so you can check whether the prescribed time scales were complied with and reject the penalty as out of time if they over-ran. If they claim they’re allowed 360 days remind them of European Court case C-224/00 (see Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update”). Although that case concerned disparity in the treatment of drivers depending on where their cars were registered, it reinforced the principle in ECHR Pt.1 Art.14 that laws must not discriminate between nationalities. Thus you can reject any liability on the basis that the 360-day rule discriminates against non-Italians, so is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable.
You can insist on being told of the accusation in your own language, despite what Italian authorities might prefer. Again, an Italian law allowing authorities to demand communication in Italian is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. It seems you are allowed 60 days from receiving a fine to pay up or appeal, so you could email or fax – in your own language – on the 59th day from receiving a penalty notice in Italian (or an incorrect own-language translation containing bad grammar or wrong spelling such as “Grait” Britain), saying you don’t understand it and ask for an accurate translation. Meanwhile the 210-day clock is still ticking, as the notice doesn’t count as served unless it’s “in a language which [you] understand”, and of course sent by registered post. If it contains any factual errors (name, time, date, location, car Reg.No, make, model etc) you can safely ignore it as it does not accurately describe the accusation and is thus unprovable – but don’t tell ‘em as they could re-issue a correct one within the 210-day period. The longer you spin out the arguments the more they would be likely to abandon the fine or run out of time. As Alex suggested, you could impose your own time-limit, such as “If I do not receive the information requested within 14 days I will assume you have (a) withdrawn all accusation/s, (b) cancelled all associated penalties & charges and (c) ceased all action/s”. With luck they won’t bother to provide a proper translation in time, or just give up. If they complain send them a copy of Article 6 – in English – with the relevant text highlighted (to be ultra-helpful you could also send the Italian version if you can find it).
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Another thing: in earlier posts Alex (and the Bella-Toscana link) suggested that Italian law assumes you are guilty until proved innocent. That too is incompatible with the ECHR, under which – as in most western-style democracies – the accused is presumed innocent until proved guilty. Thus an authority has no right to collect a penalty unless the accusation has been proved. Just saying you were seen in such a place at such a time does not prove you were. A photo of your car – or its number plate, or the driver, or the road – proves nothing without context such as time, date, place, nature of infringement and applicable law – including evidence that adequate signage was in place and operative (the international symbol of a red ring on a white background with a pictogram and/or text specifying the restriction). A close-up snap of a number plate without any verifiable context might lead a suspiciously-minded person to wonder if there could be an element of fakery involved, but of course I can’t imagine who could possibly be so uncharitable… Find the road in Google maps – there might be a “street view” showing if there were proper signs, properly positioned and visible. You could make their life more difficult by asking for proof – in your own language – that the recording equipment has been properly maintained, calibrated and tested, as we can in the UK for camera-related allegations. If the authority can’t prove the camera was working properly, who’s to say it recorded the correct time & date when the photo was taken or if a restriction actually applied when it was taken? Ask for the make & model of equipment and copies of certificates etc (translated to your language) showing this particular device has been certified & approved for this particular use; does it have a good or bad reliability history? You can probably think of a string of other things to slow up the process which you can keep trotting out, one after the other, until they get bored. If they don’t like it or won’t co-operate, tough – the greedy, profiteering scumbags shouldn’t try to rip off foreign tourists with unverified accusations. I certainly wouldn’t even think of using the appeals procedure, for which you have to deposit twice the initial fine! If they try to pursue you for non-payment, you’ll probably have a whole bunch of unanswered technical questions as your defence. The bottom line is, they must prove their case if asked.
EU member nations are legally bound to ensure their laws comply with the ECHR. Therefore I believe the above applies to all nationalities driving in Italy, not only EU citizens. National laws that don’t comply with EU legislation can be challenged in the European Court, as Alex pointed out in his 17 Feb “Important Update”. Italian cities probably issue several million of these fines every year (the Bella-Toscana article said 859,959 in Florence alone in 2008). If even only 10% were challenged it would clog the fines system to the extent it would be unworkable – and might even persuade city authorities to review their policy of killing off the tourist trade.
For those concerned at the legality of the above strategies, I must stress that none of them contravene any valid regulations or laws. On the contrary, they rely on applying the appropriate laws, though not necessarily those the Italian authorities would like. These arguments are equally valid if your own national traffic authority tries to collect under some sort of reciprocity agreement.
Like you Alex, I’m not a lawyer, just an ordinary bloke who can read & think, and I’ve no idea if any of this has been tested in court. If not, who’s first …?
End of 17 February 2o1o and March 7 2010 Updates
Section 3 – General background on the issue of receiving fines for driving offences committed in Italy
Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy
I had a contact via this blog from some people (And I hope they don’t mind my mentioning this situation, but I do think it needs mentioning) who have, in a sense, come face to face with the black side of European unity, in that these people found an Italian speeding fine, written in Italian, lying on their English doormat after the postman had done his thing.
John Folkard, one of the many who have been caught out by the restricted traffic zone in Piza, posted something about the problem on the travel tips message boards of the UK newspaper the Daily Telegraph.
Check out my updates to this post, but please do try to read everything and the comments, yes, I know there are lots of them:
- SEE ALL PAGES FOR UPDATES and YET ANOTHER UPDATE, May 2007, for more info on Pisa, and
- look at One more update – 18/09/2007, for some potentially interesting info.
20th May 2007: SUGGESTION: If you wish, you can tell me where (Place, street, time, date) you got your fine and I will add it to the Platial Map system. I’d also like to post photos of the restricted traffic zone signs to help others avoid falling into the same trap.
Have a look at this more recent post: Speed Cameras in Italy
It will help you to know what you need to look out for and where the cameras are.
Although, regretfully, it may be too late for many who arrive here, I’ve also written a post entitled:
How to Avoid Fines while Staying in Italy
I’ll try to keep both posts up to date, so check back here from time to time.
Time Limits – this is confusing – Updated
Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE
A son of one of the victims, Al (not Alex Roe) who knows Italian, French and English, supplied me with some very interesting information on the subject of time limits.
Al states that the time limit for the sending out of notices to drivers who are not resident in Italy is 360 days from the date the offence was committed – not, as had been my previous interpretation, 360 days, plus the 60 days which is often used to ‘identify’ the driver of a hire/rental car.
Here is Al’s research (note that Al is not a lawyer – and like everything else here, his interpretations need to be verified) – which I’ve published in its entirety with only a few minor edits, because I, we, think it may help a few people:
Codice della strada http://www.aci.it/index.php?id=869
Art. 201. Notificazione delle violazioni
1. Qualora la violazione non possa essere immediatamente contestata, il verbale, con gli estremi precisi e dettagliati della violazione e con la indicazione dei motivi che hanno reso impossibile la contestazione immediata, deve, entro centocinquanta giorni dall’accertamento, essere notificato all’effettivo trasgressore o, quando questi non sia stato identificato e si tratti di violazione commessa dal conducente di un veicolo a motore, munito di targa, ad uno dei soggetti indicati nell’art. 196, quale risulta dai pubblici registri alla data dell’accertamento. Se si tratta di ciclomotore la notificazione deve essere fatta all’intestatario del contrassegno di identificazione. Qualora l’effettivo trasgressore o altro dei soggetti indicati sia identificato successivamente, la notificazione può essere effettuata agli stessi entro centocinquanta giorni dall’identificazione. Per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento.
As I, Al, see it you have two “notions”:
1 – “identificazione” which can be “applied” (if necessary) to the resident in Italy,
2 – “accertamento” which refers to the day you were ascertained, “controlled” (“checked”).
(For instance the day a ZTL traffic camera took a beautiful picture of your license plate).
In this case “accertamento” doesn’t mean ascertainment (checking) of your identity.
Al’s opinion matches that of the Aduc (Associazione per i Diritti degli Utenti e Consumatori) web site:
http://sosonline.aduc.it/scheda/multe+violazioni+al+codice+della+strada+verbale+sua_12880.php
LA NOTIFICA DEL VERBALE
Resident in Italy
E’ quindi chiaro che il giorno da cui partire col conteggio dei 150 giorni non e’ facile da stabilire perche’ puo’ variare da caso a caso, e non e’ pertanto possibile standardizzare ne’ le regole ne’ i possibili ricorsi riguardanti questo delicato punto.
Resident abroad
Il caso di residenti all’estero, invece, il verbale dev’essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Al’s translation: For the resident abroad, however, the fine must be notified within 360 days of the ascertainment / (police) control, calculated unambiguously from the date of the infraction.
Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court
Excerpt from Alex Roe’s post: “ My translation: Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court established that the 150 (360 days – for non-Italian residents) day period in situations in which the identification of the actual offender is subsequent to the moment in which the violation occurred shall run from the date the authority is able to identify such offender. “
Alex Roe should never have added : “(360 days – for non-Italian residents)” (I agree – I should not have added this – Alex Roe)
Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court established that a resident in Italy is ”identifiable” from the first day he’s registered at the DVLA. Not five months later when the police finally decided to inquire. “If you behave in such a way there’s no time limit anymore” said the Judge in essence.
Regarding Residents abroad in that same decision
“mentre per i residenti all’estero il legislatore fissa un termine di notificazione assolutamente insuperabile, sia pure determinandolo in un’ampia misura (più del doppio di quella prevista per i cittadini italiani), per questi ultimi invece il termine di centocinquanta giorni viene fatto decorrere dal momento in cui l’effettivo trasgressore o gli altri soggetti responsabili siano stati identificati successivamente”
“si consentirebbe una protrazione del termine, rimessa in ultima analisi alla discrezionalità dell’amministrazione, con un possibile slittamento perfino oltre l’ampio ma rigido termine previsto dalla stessa legge per la contestazione della violazione ai residenti all’estero”
While there is an ample 360 day time limit (for residents abroad) that from the onset (the date of the traffic violation) cannot increase : it’s 360 days (and that’s all folks!), not 361, 362, ……………..
On the contrary the time limit of 150 days (for Italian citizens subjected to the whims of their administration) could…………….”slide along”……………to the point that it could even go beyond ……… the ample but rigid time limit of 360 days for foreigners abroad.
To bring the matter of time limits to a close
Yes, I do agree with you: “Time Limits – this is confusing” (Thanks, Al – it confused me!)
An Italian Court can render a sensible decision. Too rare not to be appreciated.
There can be no doubt any more that 360 day time limit for residents abroad runs from the date of the offence, not later.
The EMO fine collection agency’s Misleading Information
On their web site (http://www.emo.nivi.it/) the collection agency EMO appears to mislead traffic offenders when they answer FAQ n°17 (http://www.emo.nivi.it/Faq.aspx) :
“According the Italian Traffic Code the police have 360 days after the date of the violation or identification of the owner of the vehicle within which to notify fines to foreigners. In the event of rented vehicles, the 360 days start as from the date of identification of the holder of the rental agreement at the time of the violation, or from the date of receipt of the personal data sent by the car rental company.”
Al spoke to someone at EMO and tried to explain the 360 day time limit but EMO would not listen.
EMO acts on behalf of the municipal police of more than 150 Italian local council areas.
The FAQ section of the EMO web site is in ten languages, but there are many mistakes, not only with spelling and grammatical mistakes, but also with fact. For example: The answer to FAQ n°16 in the French version states the opposite of what it should say: NO, you must absolutely not pay the fine after having received the Official Notification if you intend to lodge an appeal !
They must have availed themselves of Google or some other translation web site.
Not taking into account the matter of the 360 day time limit.
What bugs me is that I can’t seem to find out if EMO misleads foreign tourists deliberately or just out of sheer stupidity.
I would not exclude the second assumption !
Also this article: (attempt from Milan to recover fines in Ticino)
http://www.tio.ch/aa_pagine_comuni/articolo_interna.asp?idarticolo=449497&idsezione=1&idsito=1&idtipo=3
Excerpt: Errore che riguarderebbe i “termini di notifica all’estero (dall’Italia) delle violazioni del Codice della strada”.
In sostanza il Codice della strada dice che “per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento”. Secondo quanto ricostruito, molte delle multe notificate ai cittadini sarebbero avvenute oltre i 360 giorni necessari. “Le pretese zurighesi (e a monte milanesi) sono tardive” scrive il giornale, arrivando alla conclusione che “la C&S se ne infischia altamente della decorrenza dei termini”.
I responsabili della C&S Credit Management Ag di Küsnacht, contattati sulla questione e messi di fronte alla legge secondo la quale il termine ultimo di notifica è 360 giorni dopo l’accertamento dell’infrazione, hanno spiegato che per “accertamento” si intende dell’identità del possessore della targa, non dell’infrazione.
C&S Credit Management Ag di Küsnacht appear to adhere to the interpretation of the word “accertamento” as referring to the date that the driver’s identity has been established, not, the date of the infraction. This, in Al and the Italian Aduc consumers association, appears to be wrong.
To cut a long story short, foreign drivers who have received fine notifications beyond the 360 period can write and request that the fine, or fines, be annulled.
With great thanks to Al for all his research into this matter. Shortly, I will publish a letter which people can use to request that these pesky fines are officially torn up.
END of April 6th 2010 Update
This issue has been discussed on several forums:
- Here: Virtual Tourist
- And here: Trip Advisor
- Here, in another language: Euro Travel
- Life in Italy’s forum has also considered this issue: Life in Italy
If you come across any more, let me know.
About Alex Roe
Hi Stuart,
Yes, you could ignore the fine, but, as they say, ‘they know where you live’ and if the reciprocal agreement comes into force next year, you may find that a new and larger fine will appear on your doorstep, so, why don’t you try phoning the number I mentioned in this blog entry 0044 8702400009 – it’s the DVLA, and see what they can tell you. And please let me know how you get on so I can add something to the blog entry to help everyone else who gets into this slightly sticky situation.
Good luck.
Regards,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Not sure if you’re still helping victims of ‘restricted zone’ fines, but following a visit to Italy in August 2009, I’ve had 4 fines (each 105 euros), two of them 3 minutes apart! They refer to visits I made to apparently restricted areas in Florence and Arezzo – like everyone else on the website I had no idea I was breaking any rules.
I’ve emailed my MEP as the quickest one came to me 228 days after the offence and I cannot recall what I was doing on those days. I’ll see where I get to with that. But I wonder what is likely to happen to me (in your view) if I simply ignore these letters and do not go back to Italy within the next 2 years? I know you wouldn’t condone this and I want to do the decent thing, but these fines are so vast that paying them is an issue.
Any advice for me? Do we have any kind of reciprication deal between UK and Italy? If not and we get one will it be applied retrospectively?
thanks for any help you can offer me.
Hi GF,
One at a time:
“But I wonder what is likely to happen to me (in your view) if I simply ignore these letters and do not go back to Italy within the next 2 years?
I know you wouldn’t condone this and I want to do the decent thing, but these fines are so vast that paying them is an issue.
Any advice for me?”
- I don’t really know what will happen. As I think I’ve commented elsewhere, I doubt whether they will send an Italian cop to knock on your door. Your passport may be flagged, I suppose – but Italy is not very good at networking, – they are getting better. You may be detained at an airport. Personally, I think this is unlikely – but don’t blame me if you try to get into Italy and they come knocking on your hotel door! Or something like that.
“Do we have any kind of reciprication deal between UK and Italy?”
This is on the cards, but is not yet operational, although the Eucaris system https://www.eucaris.net/index.php may speed up the implementation of communication between EU countries on such issues.
“If not and we get one will it be applied retrospectively?”
Something may happen in 2013 when an EU directive on Driving Licences is due to be issued apparently. Although I don’t know, I would doubt that any new system would be retrospective – it’s going to be enough of a nightmare to make all those computer networks speak to one another without adding in the extra complexity of retrospection – and they’d have to get each and every EU member to agree on the same retrospective date too – this may not be simple!
Sorry if I have not been of much use.
Alex
As always, I recommend paying up – then at least you will not have to worry about ending up with some huge bill down the line for 20,000 quid! If you decide not to pay, then that is up to you.
One important fact that needs to be considered is that NIVI Credit does mnot have a collection license to collect these fines in the US. As such, NIVI is in violation iof US Federakl laws and can be prosecuted. The same may hold true in other countries such as England.
I received the initial notification from EMO, a NIVI Credit Division and asked in addition to all kinds of proofs, for their license to do business as a collector in the USA. Let’s see what they produce.
NIVI is also using the italian car rental companies (the US subsidiaries such as AVIS, HERTZ, etc) as their collection arm which is also illegal as those are Italien entities and the US counterparts could be braking the laws. The rental contract states the renter is the one that pays the fine.
There is room for a class action lawsuit which I am looking into and will let all interested parties know of my findings.
Val Serra
Hi Val,
The absence of a “collection license” on the part of the agencies collecting fine payments is an interesting point.
With this point, we are moving into the realms of international law, I suspect. This complicates matters and is something I know nothing about. Potentially, if such a license is required under US law, and you are saying that it is, then nobody in the US is obliged to pay these fines via the collection agencies – but this is something which needs legal clarification.
As I’ve mentioned before, it is possible that someone who returns to Italy and who has not paid a fine may receive a visit from the Italian police. However, Italian laws on time barring would come into play after a certain number of years – 7 years I think it is.
If someone is never planning on returning to Italy, and does not live in the European Community, then they may get away with ignoring these fines – unless some mutual arrangement is made between the US and Italy.
However, I do not condone the non-payment of legitimate fines, I am not a lawyer, and I recommend taking advice on these issues from someone who is legally qualified to offer such advice.
The licensing issue is interesting though, and I wonder what the US Department of State might have to say on this issue. Someone, and American citizen, needs to write to the Department of State to ask about this.
Best,
Alex
Hello,
I also have received two infraction notifications almost a year after the date of “offence.” What I truly find offensive is that such a beautiful country can have such a ridiculous attitude towards foreigners. These tactics awe me, especially since Italy clearly needs tourism given their current economic situation. The sheer cost of tracking down international drivers, serving them and then paying for the administration costs to recover the so-called fines must almost nullify their possible gains.
As far as I can see, they are stepping on their own tails. Tourists spend thousands of dollars visiting their country and almost all leave dreaming of returning. Receiving a questionable fine a year after their lovely vacation clearly extinguishes any desire to return to such a corrupt country. It is an injustice to the Italian community, as well as to the unsuspecting tourist visiting their country. If this occured in North America there would be rioting in the streets.
I will be paying my fines, only because I have a daughter living in Milan and I KNOW how impossible it can be to deal with the government. Finding any positive resolution is more than unlikely, even it is appropriate and probably legally inforceable. The sheer time and frustration is not worth my efforts. And therein lies the problem…they count heavily on this!
Frustrated and 250 euro down,
Patti
Hi
I just god excatly the same. 2 fines yesterday and another 3 today. The 3 fines where within 3 minutes. This must be a joke… This was only for the first 3 days of my holiday so im really curius what will come!!!!
Do you have any experience of handling this..? I cant afford paying all of them
I suggest you do what I did and see what happens.
I requested for EMO to provide proofs of business licenses as well as a collection license in your state to collect the funds. I also requested for camera maintenance certification, the photographs taken of my rental car, explicit definition of my alledge infraction, the actual street number where the infraction took place, proof of adequate signs with clear description of the restrictions. All, of these to be provided in English.
I sent this letter registered so that I can track the delivery. This is the least expensive way to send a secured letter as well as sending the letter via email. I gave them 15 days to provide the proof.
As a precaution I suggest you cancel your credit card used with your rental company. EMO will issue a charge for the amount of the fine(s) request through your rental company if you dom not pay the fine which I recommend youm do not pay it and in turn the rental company will add a fee which for what I have read can be uop to 25% iof the fine.
Next send a letter to your rental company and tell them you are handling this issue directly with EMO and the police and have requested proof of the violation and business licenses. Do state that they have no authority to charge your credit card as it does not constitute a purchase of goods and services.
Then wait for a response.
Val
Val: I, too, have had a similar circumstance to those posted here with 2 infractions of driving in a restricted zone in Florence that were almost one hour apart from one another, while trying to locate the car rental company to return the rental car! Interestingly, I received 2 notices of charges to my credit card from Hertz (all in Italian I might add) about 2 months after my return to the US. Each of these charges was for 30 EU. Then, almost one year from the time of the “infractions” , I received 2 “Notice of Payment” letters from the Florence police stating that I owe them 105.88 EU for each infraction (or a total of 211.76 EU). I already paid 60 EU through Hertz. Sounds like a bit of a scam to me, just like the Italian government. Any ideas on why, after paying 60 EU through Hertz, I’m now receiving additional charges?
I no longer have the credit card used at the time of my Italian visit & don’t have any future plans to return to Italy in the near future. And, I definitely will never rent a car in Italy again – what a hassle.
Hi to all,
I got too speeding violation charges in sSeptember 2012.
First, my rental car company, took 2*37 euros for providing two times my address data (which was incorect, sic!) for each violation.
Now in March 2013 the fines arrived on wrongly placed address (i know because I contacted previously the wrong address holder).
So what should I do?
Other than ignoring or paying:)
Should I go and take the fine letters from post office (ignoring the fact that they were sent to wrong address) and then should I write a letter EMO for more informtion (in Estonian, as I’m EU citizen and this is official EU language)?
Thanks in advance for reply!
Hello Estonia,
“Should I go and take the fine letters from post office […] and then should I write a letter EMO…?”
NO!!!
Get your post office to send them back to Italy with an “unable to deliver – nobody by that name at this address” sticker on them!
Best,
Al
Hi Al,
What a nightmare, I have a situation I was in Rome with a hire car:
Date of offence 05/09/2008 driving in restricted area not aware of this.
Hire company informed police 05/02/2009.
I recieve by normal post penalty notification dated 18/06/2010 from Firenze -Italy to pay fine of 106.90 euro.
Reminder recieved 30/07/2010.
I have rang them and been informed that fine is out of 360 days no need to pay, I have emailed them 15 time and written to them by registed post, no answer, what a joke.
How long is this likely to go on.
Regards
Henry
Hi Henry,
If you’ve read this page (or at least part of it) you know that Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states clearly that the 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic violation.
EMO (situated in Florence, and acting officially on behalf of the Rome police and many other Italian Municipalities) purposely misleads foreign tourists when they claim shamelessly that the 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic offender’s “identification”.
The “penalty notice” dated 18/06/2010 is a “Notice of payment before notification”.
You are unofficially informed of the traffic violation perpetrated.
I presume that the “reminder” you received on 30/07/2010 was the official notification sent by registered mail. (and not a second unofficial notice sent by normal post)
You say that you rang EMO and “been informed that fine is out of 360 days, no need to pay”.
When did you call them? Before or after receiving the second notice?
At that moment Emo must have cancelled your fine because, even according to their (absolutely wrong) definition, your fine is invalid.
It was sent in July 2010, more than 360 days after your” identification” (5/02/1999).
I know for a fact that EMO has already cancelled fines which were sent over 360 days after identification.
So, it looks like you’re out of the woods!
But to make sure, I would call EMO again and ask them if my fine has really been cancelled.
And I would demand that they send immediately written confirmation by email!
Yeah! EMO has a deplorable tendency not to answer emails.
If, after this, the matter is still not resolved, you must dispute your fine and lodge an appeal to the Prefect of Rome within 60 days from the day of receipt of the official notification.
In your case before 28th of September (60 days from 30/07/2010).
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
Copy/paste the appeal template and send your registered letter with proof of receipt to:
Al Prefetto di Roma
Prefettura di Roma
via IV Novembre 119/A
00187 Roma
But I doubt that it would come to that, though you never know with EMO!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi
Is this still the same situation?
I have my official violation paperwork which is well after 360 days of the offence (time of infraction) but was dated (but not received until over 360 days) 357 days after the date of ascertainment – date of hire company telling them i assume.
Do i have any chance of getting off?
It seems legally based on comments that i might i.e. after 360 days of the infraction but if so how?
1. Will emo accept this if it conflicts with their guidance?
2. Appeal to prefect – has anyone any examples of success of such an appeal in this situation?
thanks
Hi David,
Contrary to what EMO claims, the date of ascertainment is ALWAYS the date of infraction.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) mentions the word “accertamento” 5 times, always in reference to the ascertainment of the traffic violation, NOT the ascertainment of the driver’s identity.
The date of identification (date at which the police receive the driver’s details from the hire company) can apply only to Italian residents.
Are you sure that you have received the official notice from EMO?
The official notice, sent via registered mail, is headed “Notification of Violation of the Highway Code” and is the only one which mentions that you can appeal to the Prefect or the Justice of the Peace within 60 days.
The unofficial notice (“Notice of payment before notification”) is sent via normal post.
For notification purposes, the relevant date is the fine sending date.
According to EMO’s misrepresentation of the law, your fine is legitimate.
The letter is dated 357 days after the date of identification, but was it sent within 360 days?
Check the time stamp on the envelope!
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
And (if possible) scroll down through the comments since May 2010.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
I have a notification from Budget rental car of €42.35 charge for them kindly passing my details to the police for a traffic offence. The offence is TIPO MULTA: RIC SUBL. Do you have any idea what this might be?
(I have actually received two such notices, different dates, same fine description.)
Hi Sandra,
No, I don’t.
Al
I just received 5 violation notices with attached “Verbale Di Accertamento di Violazione Al Codice Della Strada” all for the same infraction but on different days. The infraction, in Florence was for circulating in a restricted area with authorization. The apartment I rented for 1 week was on the Street with the restriction and my brand new TomTom cheerfully directed me down that road each day. The notices arrived three weeks shy of 1 year of the infraction but the car rental agency gave my information to the police in November, a few months later. The notices came with registered receipt card attached. My postman, not being able to read Italian, never collected them so the Italian agency does not have a record of my receiving these notices.
Do you have any suggestions
Hi Sergio,
You could send an email to EMO (Nivi) with a copy of your rental contract.
Will the Florentine police cancel your fines?
Or, you may never have received them…
Best,
Al
I’ve just received a letter from the Polizia Municipale di Sorrento for driving into a ZTL area on Via Tasso over a year ago. The annoying thing is that I couldn’t find any info about ZTL’s in Sorrento and we honestly didn’t realise we had driven in one until the car rental company took £35 off my credit card (without even sending an invoice!). Looking at google maps I can now see the sign but it’s not clear which road the ZTL is in (it’s on a cross road). The ironic thing is that there’s also a barrier with a no entry sign on it in the google maps picture – shame it wasn’t there when we were.
The letter says that I can appeal to the Prefect but doesn’t say who that is (or where to send it) and perhaps worse still it doesn’t even say how to pay the fine and where to send that either.
Does anyone have any advice? I don’t really want to send a letter to the Polizia asking where and how to pay, They don’t make it easy for you do they?
Thanks in advance.
Bev
Stuart, I recevied the exact same thing today from the Municipal Police in Pisa for driving in a restricted zone and have to pay €110. How did you do it? We were lost and didn’t even know we were in a restricted zone thanks to those great italian road signs!.
Is this a scam?
I’ve had a request for Euro 99.4 for restricted zone (which we too didn’t notice) in Pisa and they want paying by bank transfer which will double the cost!
Bizarrely – I had just received a letter today from the Municipal Police in Pisa for driving in a restricted zone – same 110 Euro fine! I really didn’t see anything indicating that there was a fine-able zone anywhere. I rang the number on the form and a guy was able to tell me that I’d entered a resident-only area.
Sounds a bit of a scam, really… OK I can’t play the innocent abroad, but it wasn’t obvious. Clearly – if on the same thread there are another couple of people with exactly the same ‘offence’ with the same fine!
I got the same fine for two offenses in Rome. AVIS charged my c/c foe 40E each time for “providing information to the police”. Nothing I can do about that. However, being Canadian, I’m required to have an International Driver’s license to drive in Italy. Does that not by default mean that all traffic signs displayed in Italy must conform to International Traffic sign standards. These fines for “Driving in a limited traffic area without authorization”, as I could confirm through googlestreetview are displayed in Italian only; along with the “Varco Ativo / non ativo” electronic boards. My intention is to argue that “Italy has put me in danger” by displaying this information in Italian only.
Hi Jim,
Even the “Varco attivo / non attivo” electronic boards are not always clear to all Italians.
But didn’t you see this international traffic sign on Google Street View?
http://italychronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/restricted.jpg
The road sign with a white background surrounded by a red circle? No entry except…
Anyway, appealing to the Prefect/Justice of the Peace on such grounds won’t get you anywhere. And you’d have to appeal in Italian.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584) and scroll down through the last (2011) comments.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hello all
I too fell foul to this soft tax aimed at unsuspecting motorists. I got papped driving into a ZTL in Alghero, Sardinia in Oct 2010. My official notice / fine came through Jan 2012 – exceeding the 360 day time limit. emo’s response was that this 360 day time limit was from when the authorities had been notified by the car hire company. They advised me to appeal. I did, including sending a copy to the Italian tourism minister!!
I received a letter written in Italian, which I think translates into me being summonsed before a judge in June in Sardinia – talk about over reaction to a very minor traffic offence.
I have tried contacting various authorities, but none have helped. My question is: do the Italian authorities have any power in terms of enforcing payment whilst i reside in the UK or dare i say even extradition!!?? – What is likely to happen if i simply ignore any further correspondence?
Any advice that you could offer would be greatly appreciated.
Hi Scott,
If you ever receive the judge’s decision, do report back on this site!
You can safely ignore any “last reminder” from EMO or any letter you may receive from a British debt collection agency.
Read February 5, 2011 at 10:55 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30020).
Best,
Al
Thank you for yours and Kemiker’s advice. You have been more helpful than everywhere else i have turned.
I have written back to the “justice of the “peace” and informed them that they need to write to me in English firstly. I have also quoted regulation (EC) No 1393/2007, EU framework decision 2005/214/JHA and article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code. All noted down from your excellent blog(s)
Let’s hope that stops their pedantic behaviour.
I will also send copies to the Italian Ambassador in the UK and the UK Ambassador in Italy!!
If i can’t travel to Italy for the next 5 years of so, i can live with that. It’s just a shame that Italy feels the need to behave this way. I am sure it will put people off returning to such a beautiful part of the world.
Once again – thanks for your help
Scott
I have had a reply from SOLVIT at http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/index_en.htm, which concerns me, as it appears that Italy does have enforcement powers over UK residents when it comes to traffic violations in Italy
Here it is:
“Dear Sir/Madam,
Please find below the reply to your enquiry. Please note that the advice given by Your Europe Advice is an independent advice and cannot be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission, of any other EU institution or its staff nor will this advice be binding upon the European Commission, any other EU or national institution.
Dear Mr. Marsden,
Thank you for contacting the “Your Europe” Advice!
If you should decide to ignore any further correspondence with the Italian authorities, this may have as a consequence that the fine for traffic violation received in Italy becomes final. The Italian authorities would thus have a pecuniary (a financial credit) against you, and they may wish to enforce it. On this purpose, they can apply with the Italian judge to issue a sentence of enforcement; the judgment handed down in Italy could be enforced in UK where you live, or where you have your assets, so that to obtain the reimbursement of the credit.
Based on EU legislation there are different modalities to enforce in UK a judicial decision of payment issued in Italy:
1) As an example, at the European Union levels it finds application the European Small Claims Procedure, as established by Regulation (EC) No 861/2007, for cross-border claims of up to €2000: a judgment given under the European Small Claims Procedure in Italy is recognized and enforceable in another Member State (like UK) without the need for a declaration of enforceability and without any possibility of opposing its recognition. See for further details: https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_small_claims-42-EU-en.do?init=true
2) The European enforcement order for uncontested claims, as established by Regulation (EC) No 805/2004 of the European Parliament and the Council.
In order to certify a judicial decision as European enforcement order it is necessary a form: European enforcement order certificate – court settlement, it can be find on the EC website: http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/judicialatlascivil/html/rc_eeo_filling_it_en.htm?countrySession=5&
As soon as this certification is issued, it is sent to the executive authority from the Member state concerned (UK) where the debtor is resident or his goods are located.
The British national legislation will establish the modalities of execution of the European enforcement order. For further details, link: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0805:IT:NOT
3) The recognition and enforcement of the judicial decision based on the Council Regulation (EC) No 44/2001 of 22 December 2000 on jurisdiction and the recognition and enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters: a judgments given in Italy and enforceable there can be enforced in UK after being declared enforceable there on application by anybody who has an interest in the matter (exequatur). The modalities of applying for exequatur in UK are laid down by the British national legislation; anyway, as modalities of enforcement there are: bank account confiscation, or mobile goods confiscation, or immobile goods confiscation etc.
Some personal observations:
●You state that you lodged an appeal against the fine received in Italy for traffic violation; consequently is normal to be summoned by the Italian judge (“”Ufficio del Giudice Di Pace Di Alghero”) to produce your arguments for defence, so that the judge may issue the sentence. Therefore, we do not believe that the “Italian authorities are trying to make your life difficult and expensive”, but it seems to be simply the pursue of the appeal procedure (as you appealed against the traffic violation).
●In your enquiry you haven’t considered also the 4th option: simply to pay the fine; instead of paying a lawyer or travelling to Italy, paying the fine would probably result being the cheapest solution in your case.
●With regard the argumentation that you did not know that there was a restricted area and that no one informed you about that: we believe that, once that you decided to drive a car on the road in Italy, you are supposed to know of the rules governing traffic road there, including traffic signs (the restricted zones are indicated with a specific sign) and you have the responsibility to respect such rules. No other people (like the car hire company or hotel) had such obligation; it’s only the personal driver’s obligation to drive properly and respect the traffic road rules.
We hope this information may be useful to you. Should you need further information, please do not hesitate to contact our Service again!
Best regards,
Your Europe Advice
To submit another enquiry, please visit Your Europe Advice , but do not reply to this e-mail.
Yours sincerely,
Your Europe Advice”
Any advice on the above would be most welcome
thanks
Scott
To Peter – as you know we have already corresponded about this and, hopefully, gone some way towards sorting it out.
To Stu – It does sound as though you are yet another victim of the often confusing and downright complex Italian road signs. I don’t know Pisa, but it looks as though it has even more confusing and complex signs than usual. Not knowing the lingo does not help either, but there is not a lot anyone can do about this.
Add to the list two couples from California fined by mail 110,4 Euros for driving in a restricted zone. Okay. It was at night. We were lost. Had we been able to determine that there are restricted zones we would happily avoid them. My local banker cannot decipher what portion of “IT 04 X 06200 14021 000002257243″ is the account number. I will try to get clarification by Fax or email. It allows somebody to translate my question and translate a reply. I am thinking that Comune Di Pisa is not motivated to post their restricted zones too prominantly.
We had an absolutely wonderful experience in April. A beautiful place to visit.
Hmm. I’m considering going to Italy again at some point – though the experience has left me with a rather unpleasant taste! I really would *not* have gone into the charge zone if I’d have known, and had all this hassle! Lesson to learn that you run such risks if you don’t understand the language, but I’d argue that since we’ve all been EU members for a long time, signage which is a bit more graphical/multicultural/pan-euro-language-friendly should be used!
Thanks Alex for passing on the info though. I couldn’t get the website to work – I’m guessing there’s an ID somewhere in your link that stops it working. I’ll look through the pisa website though.
hey, traveling to Italy used to be fun BECAUSE YOU COULD drive on opposite direction in one way streets, drive on sidewalks, do crazy things, park in double and triple row. But the italians have complex of inferiority towards the germans or other rule-loving strict northern europeans and want to imitate them, and now the fun of driving in italy is over.
Well, Sherpes, I suppose that is one way of looking at Italy’s tightening up of the enforcement of traffic offences! I guess you will have to find other countries that are fun to drive in now.
I would quite like to know just how many Italians, as opposed to non-Italians actually pay these fines…. Although, a few years back a new system was introduced whereby if you did not pay a fine you ran the risk of having your car taken away from you. This would have certainly encouraged more people to pay up, I’m sure.
Stu M – sorry the enormous link would not, er, link. You could go to the Pisa council site and wander around until you come upon the right section, I suppose, but we are back to the old ‘knowing Italian’ thing. I imagine that at some point Pisa and many others will get round to providing English language and other language versions of their site on air. In the meantime though, these international fines are going to continue to cause headaches for some time to come, I feel.
I seem to have had the same experience as others. I was actually in Bologna, but the situation was the same – it was the first day of my holiday, I was getting used to the hire car and Italian roads, I got lost, and I didn’t notice the restricted zone.
All the documentation looks genuine and I can believe I did (unintentionally) commit the offence, but: It took 5 months for the fine to land on my doormat, and the fine is 80 euros but the hire car company have added a 60 euro admin charge. I am not happy about either of these things – does anyone know if I have grounds for complaint on these?
As regards paying, the hire car company kept my credit card details and apparantly I signed something at the time to say they could recover costs such as this after the event. However, I’ve spoken to my credit card company and they say they weren’t authorised to keep my details or take a payment at a later date. So far no payment has been taken but if anything is my credit card company will help me. Does anyone know anything about this?
Many thanks for your help, and good luck to others in the same situation,
Richard
Richard – sorry to hear you are yet another to have been caught out – at least this time it was not the infamous Pisa no traffic zone.
Anyway, the 60 Euro admin charge sounds a bit steep. Most of the fines I have seen have come via the local traffic police, whereas it sounds as though yours have been ‘dressed up’ a little by the hire company. This should not have been necessary – they should have taken enough info for you to have got the fine at your house, minus any extra admin charges, at least that seems to have been what usually happens – Bologna could be different though. Maybe the hire company have already settled the fine; in which case you should be required to refund them with the 80 Euros + 1 Euro or so that the local post office charges for processing things like this.
Alex – thanks for your response.
Yeah, if I end up paying the fine, it won’t be too hard to swallow, but I’m keen to avoid the admin charge. That said, I spoke to a friend who used to work for a hire car company and she said they have teams of people to deal with drivers’ fines and this is how they pay for them, so if I end up paying that maybe I won’t feel too bad.
I guess I’m feeling philosophical about it all now!
Very interesting.
I have received two of these Pisa letters with fines for driving where we shouldn’t have. Both were the same night when my wife and I were desperately trying to find a hotel and fell foul of this Pisa zone thing. The letters were by registered post and the fines totalled about 200 euros, which was more than the cost of the car hire.
My wife wrote back to the Pisa authorities appologising for our ignorance but saying we wouldn’t pay as we were totally unaware of the restrictions.
We are going to Rome on Sunday for a few days and will discover whether I am going to be arrested for non payment as the hirer of the car.
Nick,
What happened were you arrested? I received two notices and never received anything else. I am getting ready to go to Italy and I am terrified that I am going to get arrested or deported.
I never received any coorespondence via certified mail.
Does anyone have a phone number for EMO
Emo phone number is here, Denise: http://www.emo.nivi.it/Contatti.aspx
Alex
Nick,
I would not worry too much about being arrested. Although I imagine you’ll see this reply when you get back from Rome. However, if you book into a hotel again in Pisa, then you may possibly get a visit from the local police – but things move quite slowly here, so I would not lose too much sleep over this. There is more chance of you being visited by the police if you end up back in Pisa some five years down the line, but which time someone may have updated and cross referenced some database.
The Pisa thing is a little odd, as I understand it up here in Milan foreign cars can enter the city centre. It’s a sort of catch 22 situation down in Pisa possibly – you may be able to drive into the centre if you are booked into a hotel there, but obviously to get to a hotel and book it you may need to drive into the centre. You may be able to use the hotel booking as a way to get off one of the fines you got. You could have a go at writing to them – in English, which would only be right seeing as they send the things out in English.
Good luck,
Alex
Thanks Alex,
We have returned without being arrested!
On the night in question we were driving a hire-car and didn’t manage to find a hotel room in Pisa as there was a conference using all the rooms in the town – hence all the driving around. We ended up staying out by the coast in an ancient hotel with those tea-towel style towels! (Am I supposed to be drying the pots with these?)
The letters from Pisa each came with an attached registered postcard – presumably these should have been returned by Royal Mail as proof that we had received the letters? So if we hadn’t written a reply, our receipt of the letters would not have been known.
Ciao
Ciao Nick,
Glad to hear that you had no arresting experiences whilst over here!
As for the postcards, I’m not sure what you were supposed to have done with them. In any event, I doubt whether the Pisa authorities would go to the trouble of seeking an European arrest warrant just because a fine has not been paid – but you never know. With regard to your reply, honesty is the best policy, but……….!
All the best,
Alex
Interesting notes. I received 2 tickets from pisa (2 weeks apart) for restricted zone violations that were 7 minutes apart! The violation happened in June 2006! I had no idea what I did wrong while vacationing there. I did get a notice from hertz a couple months ago indicating the Pisa authorities requested operator info on the car I drove…. that cost 18 Euro for each notice. i argued with Hertz, that an 18 Euro Administrative charge from them was steep — but 2 charges for the same info for a violation 7 minutes apart is ridiculous… Hertz refunded oneo the charges…
I still don’t know wheteher to pay…certainly not 2 99.4 euro fines!
I guess I won’t be returning to Pisa again!
Steve
We went to Pisa in November last year. Hired a car from Hertz and guess what we have received this morning. Yes a notification from Hertz that we have committed a traffic offense whilst in Pisa and a charge of 18 Euros. We don’t yet know what the offense is and cant remember doing anything wrong. Indeed as a mature couple we go out of our way not to cause offense and to respect other countries laws Looking at others experiences it seems we can expect to receive a fine in excess of 100 Euros. Who knows, we might even have unknowingly committed this offence twice! We had arrived in Italy just two hours before and had the hire car for one hour. When I think of all the money we spent contributing to the Italian economy and supporting their tourist industry and how we came home vowing to return to relive what we thought was a wonderful holiday we are absolutely furious and will never return. We will pay the fine somehow but Italy will get no more money from us. Tourist in Pisa are sitting ducks! Going to cancel our Italian lessons at the local night school to help pay for the fine. Also looked on Trip adviser site and no mention of this nasty trick on there so maybe it should be posted on there also to warn other tourist how they can unwittingly fall fowl of the law. It might be legal but it is a scam to take money from unsuspecting tourist. I wonder just how much money the Pisa authorities are making from this. I dearly hope that they will be investigated by someone with some clout to let the whole of Europe know what they are doing.
More and more people seem to be being caught out by this Pisa thing. Write to your local MEP time, maybe? It does sound as though this needs to be looked into.
Alex
Hi Alex,
Have Emailed MEP. I will let you know if anything happens. If it gets looked into it might just mean better signposts, but at least it will help others not to fall into what seams a very unfair trap.
Well done and thanks Janet. Let’s hope this thing gets sorted out and soon. Summer is almost upon us, so many will be heading for Pisa….and ending up with a little ‘souvenir’ that they had not expected….
Same story,I have just received in New Zealand a registered notice of a 110.4 euro fine this time in May last year having arrived in Pisa at midnight, stayed in prebooked Hotel then driven to Florence in the morning.
The time of the alleged offence “Circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation” must have been after leaving the Hotel and finding the way to the motorway. No signs or any other way of knowing we had done wrong. Again we had a Hertz car and Hertz had deducted 18 euro’s from our credit card “to cover costs of supplying details to to the relevant authority” It is very easy to believe that someone in Hertz is in cahoots with the independant collection agency sepi-pisa to send out dodgy fines and split the proceeds. Best advice seems to avoid both Pisa and Hertz like the plague. Pity-Pisa is a lovely town (if you can take your eyes off the road) and Hertz supplied us with a brand new Mercedes, but the fines totalled more than the hire! someone is making a profit here I think.
I have e-mailed the only address which is the sepi-pisa one suggesting it is a scam and requesting proof that the offence and fine are genuine. Then I found your dialogue on the net and realised I am not alone!
Let’s hope Janet’s letter to her MEP gets some results. If this is a fiddle, then it is being orchestrated on a large scale. Nice way of filling local council coffers and making the signs difficult to see means that the income stream is just about guaranteed. Not that I am saying this is the case, but all these cases here do start to make you wonder. Wandering into Pisa by car does not seem to be a fine thing to do.
Hello,
Same story here.
Just received two fines from european municipality outsorcing. Fines were driving in a restricted zone in Arezzo (not Pisa), fines were made on 19:25 and 19:33 . So they were only 8 minutes apart ??? No I have to pay € 202. Does someone has any idea wether these are genuine, or has any clarification of some sort? Sanne from Belgium
Sanne – if you want to hop over to my Englishisin site, you can use the messaging system to send me a mail. I have some scans of the genuine articles so I could compare them for you if you like.
Alex
hi scras
I have had exactly the same problem with two fines from EMO on behalf Commune di Arezzo arriving today – again both 8 minutes apart – 19.04 and 19.12 in august last year- same total 202 euros – in a hire car from Hertz. This is either an illegal scam or a creative way of balancing local authority finances. I saw no signs and have driven in this area of arezzo many times over the last 20 years. I love Italy, particularily Arezzo and the surrounding area, but feel so angry that I would consider a new destination for future holidays.
Jane from London
Nadine,
I can wholly sympathise with your momentary lapse. It is very easy to get caught up in the flow of Italian traffic and if you hesitate for a nano second, you will be beeped at. This pressure means that it is inevitable that wrong turns are made and you end up where you did not intend to be.
It will be interesting to see if a fine arrives – but it does depend upon whether you passed one of the cameras. You may be lucky, but maybe not.
The congestion charge system would probably be an answer, but so far, such a system has yet to be adopted here, as far as I know.
Wait and see time, in your case, I’m afraid – as you know.
Please let me know if a fine does drop through your letter box.
Alex
We have just received notification of two parking offences in Pisa which we had made in October of last year. We paid for parking and we were totally unaware that we were in a restricted zone. We were informed by our car leasing company that they had paid the fine and that they had deducted the amount from our credit card which we had used to pay for the car. The letter was dated in April. On checking it appears that the fine has not yet been paid.
Eileen – this double fine thing is a little odd – if you read above, another commenter – Howard is in a similar situation – though not regarding Pisa.
Are you sure the hire company has actually paid the fines and not just charged an ‘admin’ fee for processing them? If you look at your credit card statement and you find two amounts for around 18 Euros, then I think this refers to the processing fees, not payment of the fines. This may explain why the fines have not yet been settled. As some point you should receive formal notification from the Pisa authorities re the actual fines.
Hope that helps.
All the best,
Alex
PS Suggestion: Could someone try contacting Tom Tom or any of the other sat nav providers and asking them to add the Pisa restricted traffic zone to their maps?
Hi there, I just wanted to conclude on my comment of 3rd May 2007 whether EMO is a legal entity or the fine that tey had submitted was a refined fraud; with the assistance of the Danish consumer organization, which is gov´t sponsored, it unfortunately (since I now have to pay) turns out that EMO are for real. In fact I already did the payment online by credit card – just as easy as when buying anything else on the web. All the best.
Hi Morten.
Many thanks for having independently checked out the EMO set-up. Although my own investigations meant that I had reached the same conclusion regarding EMO, it is good to hear a second opinion which confirms what I believed.
This will be useful info for all those who happen upon this blog entry.
Alex
A further update: after querying things with Hertz, they agreed to refund the two 18-Euro administration charges “as a gesture of goodwill”. Very pleased with this outcome! Thanks again to contributors to this page, very useful to have this extra info.
To clarify – the 18-Euro Hertz charges were added as an admin fee by Hertz Italy, following a request from the Italian authorities to Hertz Italy about who was renting the car in question. We have not yet had any direct correspondence from Italy about the traffic fines themselves.
We queried Hertz about this, and asked if we should expect a letter from Italy for the traffic fines to be paid. Interestingly, they said this might not happen. Was surprised by this!
So – haven’t (yet) been asked to pay any traffic fines yet, and had the associated Hertz admin charges refunded. Just shows it’s worth chasing the rental company.
Howard
Thanks for the update Howard – good news about the Hertz admin fees! Let’s hope those fines really don’t turn up.
“We queried Hertz about this, and asked if we should expect a letter from Italy for the traffic fines to be paid. Interestingly, they said this might not happen. Was surprised by this!”
I wonder if someone from the Italian authorities has been reading this entry in my blog…..! Hope someone from Pisa council finds his or her way here.
Blogger (and commenter) power??
All the best,
Alex
PS I’m going to get hold of that Make A Jazz Noise Here Frank Zappa album that you love – I love guitar, especially electric and electro acoustic stuff. One of these days I’ll get round to getting another geetar and trying to learn to play it! (I think my hands are too dinky) I’d love an Ovation electro acoustic model, and when funds permit…..I’ll get one and shave down the neck!! In which case I shall be back to your site which is full of very useful info. I’m glad you dropped in here!! Cheers!
My spouse was in Italy in June of 2006 and we too received the $18 Hertz charge and the SAME exact wording and numbers for the bank as others posted on here for “circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorization”…. Seems a bit odd that all infractions appear around the same time frame, with EXACT wording and bank numbers. We are from the US- not sure where others were from that posted here…
The item that I’m stuck on is, if the bank numbers are exactly the same on all of these “transactions/offenses”, then how in the world would Comune di Pisa know if it was my spouse that paid and not someone else???
I was relieved to see your postings on this matter! Thank you!!!!
I’m trying to fill out that form mentioned above from e.pisa.it and cannot find a “tax identification number” anywhere on the offense letter…??? what is this number? thanks!
Hi Kelly,
I think you can leave the Tax Identification number blank, because you don’t have one. I think this refers to the Italian Codice Fiscale – Fiscal Code which everyone who lives or works here legally gets. I shall have a look at the form and check that what I’ve said is accurate. I’ll post again here if it is not.
All the best,
Alex
What you say is very true Karin – foreign drivers are easy targets – they pay up and shut up. Whereas Italians, in the main, neither pay up nor shut up. This is why one of those MEP gods should be looking into this issue.
Regards,
Alex
Hi Alex,
I am Dutch. I have received 4 traffic fees dated 6-7-8/June/2011 due to ZTL violation in Alghero/Sardinia. The official letters I received are dated 25/July/2012 so 360 days after infraction. I would appreciate if you could advise how to cancel the said fees due to the late receipt.
thnx,
Hi Merijn,
When did you receive (sign for) the official fines? Late July/early August?
Remember that you have (only) 60 days to appeal to the Prefect!
IF you’re not too late, send one letter of appeal for the four fines. Same grounds: over 360 days, same town (Prefect): Sassari.
Al Prefetto di ____
Raccomandata A.R.
Oggetto: ricorso contro multe notificate oltre 360 giorni dai fatti.
Il/la sottoscritto/a ___, residente in ______, titolare del contratto di noleggio della vettura targa _____,
premesso che in data 1ST DATE, (2ND DATE?,) ha ricevuto i verbali di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. N° 1ST FINE, N° 2ND FINE, …, fa notare che le notifiche degli stessi sono avvenute oltre 360 giorni dai fatti, estinguendo quindi l’obbligo di pagamento.
Come stabilito dall’art. 201, comma 1 del Codice della strada, nel caso di residenti all’estero, il verbale deve essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Per quanto sopra
Chiede che i provvedimenti vengano annullati.
Allega: fotocopie dei verbali notificati.
Date…………… Signature (readable)
I would also enclose with the letter, not only a readable copy of the formal notifications but also Decision 198/1996” of the Italian Constitutional Court with the relevant passages highlighted.
Page 3: “Come si nota dal raffronto [...] siano stati identificati successivamente.”
Page 4: “si consentirebbe una protrazione [...] ai residenti all’estero;”
Write: “Allega: fotocopie dei verbali notificati, sentenza Corte Costituzionale 10-17 giugno 1996, n. 198.”
Download Decision 198/1996 as a pdf document from: http://www.cortecostituzionale.it/actionPronuncia.do
(“Anno: 1996, Numero/i: 198”, click on “Ricerca”)
Send your registered letter with proof of receipt to:
Al Prefetto di Sassari
Prefettura di Sassari
Ufficio Ricorsi per Violazioni al Codice della Strada
Piazza d’Italia 31
07100 Sassari
I would also send an email to the EMO (Nivi Credit – infoemo-en@nivi.it) to inform them that you’ve appealed against (fine)/infraction number … with the Prefect of Sassari.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Merijn
In addition to Al’s input I would also add a little more persuasion because the prefect of Sassari has previously rejected appeals made on this basis.
http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-31479
Other prefects are accepting appeals on the basis of expired time limits, calculated from the date of the offence and max 360 days.
Pisa has accepted one (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32096). Florence has also just accepted mine by definition (see bottom of blog).[Al maybe you could write a suitable sentence in Italian for this].
Add this link to the website of Comune di Roma which contains the correct interpretation of the law so the prefect of Rome would also accept this argument.
http://www.comune.roma.it/wps/portal/pcr?contentId=NEW145409&jp_pagecode=newsview.wp&ahew=contentId:jp_pagecode
Finally you can cut and paste this into your appeal. It’s from the Italian consumer rights organisation ADUC and sourced from this blog. I used it in my successful appeal.
Associazione per i Diritti degli Utenti e Consumatori è d’accordo:
http://sosonline.aduc.it/scheda/multe+violazioni+al+codice+della+strada+verbale+sua_12880.php
“Il caso di residenti all’estero, invece, il verbale dev’essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.”
Hopefully that will push the decision making process in the right direction!
Additionally if you want to question the validity of the notification itself according to ECHR in terms of 1) language:
Inoltre, secondo la Convenzione per la Salvaguardia dei Diritti dell’uomo e delle Libertà Fondamentali:
Articolo 6§3a
In particolare, ogni accusato ha diritto di: essere informato, nel più breve tempo possibile, in una lingua a lui comprensibile e in modo dettagliato, della natura e dei motivi dell’accusa formulata a suo carico….
La lingua in Danimarca è danese. Il servizio devono essere scritto in lingua danese legge enligt internazionale.
….you need to exchange Danimarca and danese with the Italian words for Netherlands and Dutch.
2) The presumption of innocence:
Articolo 6§2
Ogni persona accusata di un reato è presunta innocente fino a quando la sua colpevolezza non sia stata legalmente accertata.
La clausolo “ must be considered guilty of the infraction until proven otherwise” [“...essere considerate colpevole di infrazione fino a prova contraria”] è illegale
Best
Kemiker
Same boat here. I got this letter from Hertz today telling me that 18€ charged my credit card for giving information to the “Nessesary authorities”. It is commented with Offence: “Verbale fine on lane”. My belief up to this date was that if you violate anny law in Italy the police will take direct contact with you. Because of this was not true I thought it was a scam so I called the credit card company to block my credit card. I was in Milan in the beginning of April and now after 5 months they start messing with this offence that I don’t know wath is. I live in Norway and we are not a member of the EU. If I recieve this Fine my plan is to ask for Evidence, If evidence is not given to me I will go to the Police here in Norway and report it as a Freud. I will simply claim that this offence never happend. Than the norwegian laws is like this: Companies that are making people pay by force can not take this case because than they will lose their authorisation if they participate in Freud. However I am not sure if the Italians have anny agreement with Norway to get theese money by force annyway. And after this I rather go to Spain next time.
I have received notification of a speeding fine from Pisa.
The date of the offence is October 06, it is now September 07.
The document is very kindly translated into English.
According to the document, I am the owner of the car in question (whereas I hired the car).
The document gives an account number into which the fine (57 Euros) is to be paid
Oh, it cost the person sending it 4 Euros.
So is it genuine?
If I pay an amount into the numbered account given, how do the police know it is from me? I could have it paid from an account not in my name. The only way they could tell that I had paid fine is if there was an account opened for my fine only – and nothing else. Do you think the Pisa police have an opened a separate bank account for everyone to whom they issue a fine?
However, I am not going to just ignore it. Clearly someone has passed my hire car details (from Pisa) on to these scammers. What other information do they have on me?
If someone were to rob a shop of £100, people would quite rightly expect the perpetrator to be arrested. If someone sets up a bogus bank account to collect money from people they have scammed, I would expect the police to ask; who owns the account, checkout who has paid money into the account and why, and arrest those concerned. But sadly the police have better things to do (catch motorists on speed cameras).
I expect the scammers to respond to this message – explaining that the fine is genuine and how the police can trace that my fine has been paid.
There are other faults with the document – but I don’t want to give the scammers too much information – anyway, why should they bother to improve the fake speeding notice, if so many are falling for it.
Mike.
Mike, I’ll email you about this.
Alex
Alex
I’ve just received aletter from Europcar charging 36 euros for administration. Attached were two letters from the Rome Polizia Municipale to Europcar, alleging my hire car went into restriced traffic zones on the 4th & 5th May 2006!
We were there on hols on those dates with a Europcar hire car, but after all this time – should I pay the police?
The document says the fine should be paid within 60 days!! or else it escalates to 275 euros. So I guess I would be charged 275 for each offence if I paid now, although of course – like others- I was unaware that I’d gone into these ‘restricted zones’.
Should I wait for something to come to me direct from the Police?
Is the offence now ‘out of date’?
Alan
Hi Alan,
Sorry to hear about your fine, but you raise an interesting issue. That is, should you pay the original fine or the 275 Euros, times 2? A very good question, but seeing as you did not receive the notification until recently, the 60 days should run from the date of receipt not the date of offence. However, i do not know the rules on this. I’ll give the police a ring tomorrow and ask them. Then I’ll post back here.
Alas, the fine is not out of date. Info on the State Police Site mentions 5 years before the fine becomes expires.
Alex
Alex seems very keen on promoting the fact that these fines are genuine – he says he will e-mail me re my comments above (I await his e-mail with interest).
Does Alex have my e-mail address?
Imagine if the police in your home country, wrote to you advising of a motoring offence and gave details of a bank account into which to pay the fine. They provided no reference number to allow traceability of payment.
Either such a scheme is a scam or the police have no way of determining who has paid their fine.
Take my ‘fine’ of 57 euros, let us say, my uncle in the USA pays the fine on my behalf – how the hell do the police in Pisa know my fine has been paid (unless they have set up an account for my fine only)?
Alex is going to expalin this one!!!!!
I suspect the poilce might be interested in Alex’s e-mail and postal address as part of their investigation into this scam.
Mike,
Oh dear, looks as though I might get myself in hot water over this. Let me say that I am not at all ‘keen’ on promoting the fact that these fines are genuine, and I would be quite happy for the police to have my email address etc, then at least I would know something is being done about this and so I too could establish whether these fines are in actual fact genuine and then let people know.
What I try to do, when I have the time, is ringing someone, mentioning the offence number and waiting for them to give me the car registration plate details and model – it is not an exhaustive check, I know, but it is all I can really do to check these things out. Sorry, if it is not enough. If someone can suggest a better way, then I’d be happy to hear it and publish it on this site.
I am neither an investigator, lawyer or a member of any police force, and I have tried to point out that I really am no expert on this. I don’t think I have ever made myself out to be one, and I do try to encourage others to check with the authorities in their own countries. What I can do, if you want, is contact the authorities here, but I maybe just making this all up and taking my cut – which could be the case – and if you believe this, and if I offer some assistance, you can simply say no. This would be understandable.
Maybe I should stop trying to help, and hope that, as I have mentioned on more than one occasion, someone contacts an MEP, or speaks to a lawyer in their own country.
As for your email address, I am assuming that the one you left is genuine. If not, and I would not be too surprised if it is not, after all, you do not know me from Adam, which means you have every right to be suspicious.
As for the case of your uncle paying the fine on your behalf, as long as someone pays the money into the bank account which the Pisa police use, and quote the correct reference number, then the matter is closed. It does not matter who pays, so much as if the amount is settled. At least this means that the next time you come to Italy and go to Pisa, nobody will come knocking on your hotel room door (although the chances of this happening are slim) asking you to pay a fine.
If you do want to give the US or UK police my email, then please do by all means. If they think I can help, or wish to check that I am not in the scam, that’s fine by me. Got nothing to hide.
I suppose I should have expected a comment like this at some point. Oh well, trying to help probably was not a good idea. Sorry. I shall have a think about how to proceed in the future.
Kind regards,
Alex
Mike, I have sent a mail to the address you left.
Alex
Alex
Can you pay these fines using a VISA card by giving it’s number to the local police over the phone?
Alan
I have returned to this Blog often to get some updates. In my first post several days ago I told that I received a letter from Hertz where I was charged the 18€ administration fee. I thought it was a scam so I blocked my credit card. I found this blog and had a lot of interesting reading before I called the car rental company (Hertz). This blog made me realize that my Fine can be real. However I have still not got the Fine it selves.
Before I called Hertz I did some “homework” where I prepared my selves what to say (thanks to this blogg!!!).
Than I called them: (This is a bit simplified, but gives you an idea about my feedback to Hertz)
First I told them that charging my CC after 5 months initially made me think about a scam, than I blocked my CC.
Than I told them that I had investigated this my selves. And for my case this fine probably was real.
I than told them that these Italian Fine’s is a problem for tourists in rental cars especially. And here I made a point of that people are being so confused about this that there exists blogs on the internet where this is being discussed and Hertz is mentioned explicit. (I said “blogs” but so far I only know about this blog). I pointed out that “People” are discussing whether these fines are real when the rental companies are charging their customers for administration fee anyway. And I ended my “speech” with: Due to my observations there is a growing opinion among people in the blogs that the combination of Hertz** in Pisa or Milano is to be avoided. Because some people doubt the realness of the Fines. And people are thinking that the car rental companies are cooperating with the authorities in squeezing the tourists for money.
** Since I was talking to Hertz i gave all the pepper to them. But I realise that other companies also are mentioned. I did not give the link or address to this blog. My basic Idea with the feedback was to make them understand that “if you f**k the tourists they will f**k you” and the Fine’s is a real problem that put their name into shame because when Italians drive like they are late for their own funeral, well-driving tourists are bugged with Fines for being in a restricted area.
The Customer Service did actually thank me for the feedback and called my speech “interesting”.
Thanks for this Blogg Alex!!
Asbjorn – First, thanks for your thanks. Second, thanks for drawing Hertz’s attention to this little problem. Let’s hope it starts an internal investigation, and that Hertz at least manage to establish that nothing untoward is going on with regard to its operations. If it is, and I not for one moment saying that it is, then Hertz brand image could end up being dented. I do hope Hertz’s customer service sits up and takes notice, and just does not sit on this issue and file it away as being a minor complaint.
It’s a shame that no newspapers are looking into this, too.
Incidentally, I know of three or so forums where this issue has come up and two have linked to this post, so at least people are becoming aware that this is going on.
Watch this space time, I feel.
Thanks again, Asbjorn.
Kind regards,
Alex
Ciao,
I used my friends car when I was visiting in Italy. Now she has got a speeding ticket by mail. Propably they have had some camera/radar contorl in a highway where I drove too fast. I’d like to know if the speeding fine is for a owner of the car in this situation. Should it belong to the driver of the car. Will she get some nasty consequences if she doesn’t pay the fine.
Respect,
-Arthuro
Arthuro,
First, I am not an expert, so please have what I say checked.
Now, check that the fine is actually for a speeding offence and not some minor infraction that will not lead to points being deducted from an Italian driving licence.
If the fine is for speeding, then, as I understand it, under Italian law your Italian friend is obliged to pass your details, driving licence, address, etc to whoever issued the fine within 60 days of the notification of the offence. See, in Italian, here
Otherwise, your friend had better pay the fine or she may face another fine of between 250 and 1000 Euros. If your fine concerns an offence which leads to the deduction of points from an Italian driving licence, and your friend pays, she will lose some of the 20 points that each Italian driver has on his or her licence. Lose all twenty and the driver concerned will be required to re-take the Italian driving test. This is something to keep in mind. So, the fine, in answer to your question, applies to the driver of the car, not the owner, at the time of the offence.
If your friend does not pay the fine, the amount will increase and things will become more complicated for her. So get her to pass your details to the fine issuers, if there is still time.
Hope that helps, but do check what I have said.
Kind regards,
Alex
Arthuro,
One other thing, if the fine is for something that will not cause points to be deducted from your friend’s licence, then you could ask her to pay it and then send her the money. In this case, the fine will be settled and the matter should go no further.
But, please get a second opinion on this. Sorry to be such a bore about this, but I feel that I need to cover my back in case someone accuses me of giving them the wrong info and they end up getting in trouble as a result of following my informal advice. Or worse, I end up being labelled as a scammer.
Thanks for reading.
To all readers:
Maybe someone else here could either confirm or otherwise that what I have been saying is accurate or not. I would have no problem at all with being corrected, in fact I would welcome it – then at least everyone will have something concrete to go on.
Cheers to one and all,
Alex
Thanks Alex! For using a lot of time on answering people in this blog. I have seen that there have been posts where people have started to doubt your intensions. I have spendt some time in reading most of the postings here and I have to say clearly: Not at any time have any of your posts or comments made me doubt your intensions. For me it is clear that you are not a scamer. I just wanted to write wath I think, and probably most of everyone else in here also thinks. Thanks for beeing honest, but I think it should not be nessesary for you to point out that you are “not an expert” all the time. The people comming to this blog should simply take their time to read the blog before they start to mean anything about the intensions behind the blog, and the answer will come by it selves. I just want to give you clear support on this issue.
Thanks,
Asbjorn
I have also recently received notification of a traffic violation (driving in a restricted zone) in July 06. Europcar had deducted an €18 admin fee from my credit card, and has sent me a copy of page 1 of the polizia municipale document. This mentions the €68 fine, 60 days to pay, and the higher fine of €275. However I found a statement on the web that the time limit for notification of the fine is 150 days. When I raised this with Europcar in Rome, they said that the police have 150 days to notify the owner – the car rental company, who then have 60 days to reply to the police with the renter’s details, and the police have then a further 150 days to contact the renter directly, making a total of 360 days for the violation to be valid. I have yet to receive anything formal from the police, and I am now outside the 360 day period. So I wonder if I am now in the clear, or should I pay?
Asbjorn – thanks once again for being so supportive. I don’t expect any thanks for trying to help out a little, but when I am thanked, it is greatly appreciated. So, cheers once again! I think I will continue to point out that I am not an expert – although I do feel a bit silly doing it – this is only a little blog after all!
Sean – OK, I’ve had a look into this time limits thing a bit more and from what I can make out from the Italian Automobile Club site here:
http://www.aci.it/index.php?id=427
There is indeed, as you say, a time limit of 150 days for the notification of the fine, if the individual committing the violation is resident in Italy. This limit extends to 360 days for individuals committing violations who are not resident in Italy, however, both these time limits run from as soon as the actual offender has been identified:
In Italian: La Corte Costituzionale, con sentenza 198/1996, ha stabilito che il termine dei 150 giorni, nel caso in cui l’identificazione dell’effettivo trasgressore avvenga successivamente rispetto al momento in cui la violazione è stata commessa, decorre dalla data in cui l’autorità è in grado di identificarlo.
My translation: Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court established that the 150 (360) day period in situations in which the identification of the actual offender is subsequent to the moment in which the violation occurred shall run from the date the authority is able to identify such offender.
So, in your case, it appears that the 360 days starts running from as soon as the police have been advised by the car rental company who you are, so this means presumably that the police must send you a fine within this 360 day period, otherwise it is no longer valid.
My understanding is that you now need to know when the rental company got round to telling the police who you are and then add 360 days so you can check by when the police should send you this fine. For the moment, seeing as you personally have not yet received any notification from the police, you may get away with this.
Let’s hope nothing drops through the letter box. Please have my translation checked out – sorry, but I’m going to point out that I am not an expert on this subject yet again.
Hope that helps,
Kind regards,
Alex
PS I shall add the info about the time limits thing to my main post.
Many thanks Alex.
Your translation is perfect, as far as I can see. It looks like I had better pay up before the fine increases to €275.
No worries Sean. Glad to have been of help.
Rhonda – Many thanks for the info regarding telling the authorities that you are staying in a hotel within a restricted traffic area. Very useful, and I shall be adding it to the main post, way above here!
Cheers,
Alex
Luis,
Thanks for the thanks! Always appreciated.
As to what you should do, well, I would say move house – sorry! Only joking. I guess that you will just have to wait until the actual fine arrives, although from the experiences of others it is not altogether clear when the fine will get to you. However, on the basis that Hertz have charged you the admin fee, then this should mean that the police now know who you are. In which case, the fine could arrive at any time.
Keep an eye out for a registered letter from Italy, unless of course you happen to get lots of registered letters from here!
All the best,
Alex
Alex, Thank you for your support and also, thank you for removing my email address, I didn’t think about spam until after I had sent.
Regards.
Rhonda.
Today I also got the surprise carryover from the holiday that everyone else has. However, unlike most, I got not one, not two, but THREE of them all from a TWELVE minute period in May.
Apparently in driving to the hard to find hotel in Florence, I managed to hit three of the limited traffic areas and they’re very keen to talk to me about e300 in fines.
I’m going to try to get info and plot where the roads are compared to the hotel to see whether this is valid but really, no matter how genuine the offences are, some leaway needs to be given to tourists at times providing they’re not driving dangerously.
Hi Max,
Sorry to hear about three fines – I think that must be some kind of record here, and all in a twelve minute period.
I certainly agree with you regarding the leeway, but the cameras are rather impersonal, however, if you read Rhonda’s comment above, you will not that if you have pre-booked a hotel within a restricted traffic area you should tell the hotel staff, who should, in turn, advise the local police – will then exclude your car if it ends up being photographed.
I have not looked into this, so I am not sure which cities operate this exclusion idea (which seems reasonable). When I have a spare moment, I’ll try to find more information about this.
Kind regards,
Alex
same fine but from sardignia (travel in october 2006).
I have a look and it permit to find a private society employed by italian police to recover money in all europe.
European municipality outsourcing belong to NIVICREDIT SRL (www.nivi.it).
It seems to be legal … but I m sure that in France the french police come to you ordered by nivicredit to make you pay after the 60 days …It happens to a friend of mine with a fine caught in Pisa.
For myself wait and see …
I just hope to be helpful …
best regards
Stephane
Hi Stephane
Thanks for dropping in and telling us about your situation – everything helps.
Re the use of a private company to collect fine payments, this appears to be quite a common form of outsourcing in Italy, even if it must make people worry about the legitimacy of the fine.
The nivi site looks OK, but it is easy to make a site look OK.
Can you tell us some more about your friend in Pisa? Was he/she caught in Pisa? Did the Italian police come and collect the fine? Or is your friend French, and so did the French police go to his/her house to ask him/her to pay the fine he/she got in Pisa?
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi and thanks for this great blog !
I’m in the same case as Rhonda, possibly caught by a cam in Firenze. Like Rhonda, too, I’ve received a letter from EMO for 92,5 euros. After having a look at the website, it seems pretty fake, a student could have made it !
), and 3 days later I’ve an automatic answer telling me (in italian), that my mail as been forwarded to the competent officer ..
So I emailed the Police Municipality of Firenze (direz.pol.municipale@comune.fi.it) to have a confirmation. First, I have written in english, but after 3 days, no answer … So I have written in french (cause I’m French
Now I’m waiting for an answer …
Best regards,
Johan
PS : forgive me for my english, no problem for reading … but for writing it’s a little bit hard
Well, I have some news back from Florence, Italy.
Email received back from infoemo@nivi.it Which is the email address on the fine.
Dear Mr xxxxxx,
the Hotel Il Granduca where you were staying on the 28 and 29 May 2007 is outside the limited traffic area (ZTL) of Florence, so it wasn’t necessary to enter this area to get to the hotel.
For this reason Municipal Police won’t cancel your fine.
For any further information please feel free to contact us again.
Best Regards
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I also, sent an email too: Polizia Municipale Comune Di Firenze, with an attachment copy of the fine. This was their responce.
Good morning,
it’ s better waiting for formal notification of fine ( from Municipal Police of Florence ) and then you can decide for payment or appeal.
Best regards.
xxxxxxxxxxxx
email: pm.verbali.notifiche@comune.fi.it
Well! maybe I am wrong but it looks to me that Municipal Police of Florence, didn’t see the attached fine as being official.
The email address for Florence Police:
pm.verbali.notifiche@comune.fi.it
Written by Alex.
“Rhonda’s comment above, you will not that if you have pre-booked a hotel within a restricted traffic area you should tell the hotel staff, who should, in turn, advise the local police – will then exclude your car if it ends up being photographed.”
Alex,
I hope I don’t offend you but I have a problem. I have a degee in history and every quote, must be quoted as it was.
I Wrote:
“However, they also, have another law, which is: while tourists are staying within these areas the hotel manager by Law must take a copy of your passport, international drivers licence, and Car Number Plate, the hotel manager by Law must send copies to the local Polizia within 8 days of your stay. So that if a car Number Plate is picked up on the camera they can check against their recording of Authorized vehicles of tourists residing, even if it be a few days.”
It doesn’t matter whether you have pre-booked a hotel or just driven into Florence, and found a hotel, and spent the night. You were residing in Florence on those nights.
We received an email back from our hotel management saying: Your stay 28-29 May 2007,was registered with Municipal Police of Florence. Please, contact us again if you have more problems.
The four of us were out to dinner last night the matter came up and we have decided not to pay.
I hope this helps.
Regards.
Rhonda.
Hi Johan,
Thanks for the thanks! Let’s wait and see what reply you receive….
Best regards,
Alex
PS Your written English is a whole lot better than my French, written or spoken:-)
Hi K,
Glad you found the info useful.
As for the address, well, that did make me chuckle!!! Highly appropriate for the living museum. The late Machiavelli has a lot to answer for IMHO!
All the best,
Alex
Hello
April last year I visited Firenze with my family, and got caught 8 times on camera in the “restricted traffic zones”. I’ve waited to do anything about it untill now that I got the real fine( the one you receive after the “notification”)
I’ve talked to these people at EMO a couple of times to get advice on what to do about this.
Appealing, I will probably end up paying the double amount which will be a disaster for my family and I. So this morning I talked to somebody at the EMO who, strangely enough, told me a secret on how to avoid payment…..
I promise everyone who read this and you Alex, that when I’ve tested this method I will tell you all how it works out…
Best regards
Kasper
Hi Kasper,
Thanks for the info. We shall all wait with baited breath the hear about this secret method of avoiding having to pay these fines.
Hope it’s legalish!
And if it works, I’ll think about publishing it here – although anyone who decides to try out such method – must do so at his or her own risk.
Regards,
Alex
Hi Alex,
First of all, THANK YOU for providing a forum for people like me to vent and seek assistance and advice. Now for the nitty-gritty; I am fuming. I received two tickets in the mail this week for fines incurred in July, 2007. I drove through a ZTL twice in the same day and owe EMO nearly 200 Euros
Interestingly, our hotel was in a ZTL (I didn’t know what a ZTL was until yesterday). I am fluent in Italian (my mother’s family still lives there) and I have visited and driven all over Italy many, many times. Never seen these ZTLs before, never received tickets… I speak with a very noticable English accent and I presented my Canadian passport on arrival at the hotel so clearly, there was no mistaking that I am a tourist. When I ask where I should park my car, I would expect the hotel employee to have the common sense (and courtesy) to know that my car probably doesn’t have ‘authority’ to drive through a ZTL so she shouldn’t send me past another camera. She should also have asked for my license plate. I assume that it’s too late for the hotel to call now…7 months have passed.
I just wanted to let you know that when I got my International Drivers License, I received a book with laws and signs specific to Italy which I actually studied. The book I received from CAA (AAA equivalent in Canada) did NOT include the ZTL sign. The “Do Not Enter” is a red circle with a horizontal white line going through the middle – same as it is in North America. I have since notified CAA and AAA of my incident and of their ommission.
I am not saying that tourists should be exempted from these rules – the municipality of Firenze is free to make and enforce any rules they deem necessary. But for a city that relies heavily on tourists for income, they should have considered the fall-out this sort of gouging will have on their tourism industry. DID THEY? HOW DO I LET THEM KNOW THAT THIS IS A BLACK-EYE FOR THEM? It’s a trap really – if your hotel is in the core area of the city, there is no way to avoid these ZTL areas….pedestrian traffic, people double-parked – detours are inevitable!
Imagine had I known what that the ZTL sign meant and tried to stop my car in the middle of a busy street. That would surely upset the people behind me. Italy is not known for their patient or courtious drivers.
I am going to pay the fines as I will be back in Italy in the near future and will be renting a car again. But need some advice on who I can write to to let them know what a negative effect this is having. Any suggestions? I booked three other families for their vacations in Florence this summer. They all want to drive through the wine-country and will have their own cars. I cancelled all three reservations today because of this and am sending them to Trento instead.
Hi Katie,
Glad you found this post useful. The number of people affected by these ztl things never ceases to amaze me.
Anyway, I’ll track down a couple of names and addresses and get back to you. I’m thinking about the head of Florence’s tourist board, local council officer in charge of tourism, and, possibly, the Italian government minister in charge of tourism.
All the best,
Alex
It is good to know that I am not alone. My husband, parents, and I were traveling in Italy in April 2007. We received a total of……………………. 7 tickets! (Oh, and of course 25 Euro fines for each one from Europcar in addition to the 80-92 Euro fines from the polizia. Here is the breakdown:
5 from Florence: 1 for driving along lanes for public transportation only, 1 for circulating on roads reserved to other vehicles, and 3 for circulating in limited traffic areas (those 3 within a 10-minute period)
1 from Verona: driving through a Zone of Traffic Limited where car transit is allowed “only at certain hours of the day”
1 from Pisa: driving in limited traffic zone
The ones from Florence came in English. I called the police, and a woman told me that three of my fines could be removed if my hotel sent proof of my stay. After three rather difficult conversations with limited-English-speaking (but very friendly) ladies at the hotel, I faxed a letter and the copies of the tickets (add $25 + international phone calls…I haven’t received the bill yet!). My hotel tried to get the fines waived, but apparently was 100 meters outside of the restricted traffic zone! The hotel did send me forms about how to appeal the tickets, but, after careful reading, I realized that I would have to pay DOUBLE the fine if my appeals were rejected. I logged onto EMO website, paid the five tickets, have receipts, and feel relieved that at least those are done (although VERY poor!).
The ones from Verona and Pisa are trickier, as they are in Italian. I sent e-mails to both municipalities requesting more information. Verona sent me instructions in English, but I feel unsure as to how they will know that it is our ticket that has been paid…any answers?
Pisa has not responded to my e-mail. Their notification letter is very hard to understand. I gave it to a woman who speaks some Italian, and she could not figure out the instructions for payment. I also took it to the bank with no success.
Anyway, I do think that Italy should be aware that this is NOT good for tourism. I’m not the gambling type, so I am trying to pay the fines…however, I now have NO desire to visit Italy again. I certainly will never drive there again. It’s too bad, really…I loved it when I was there.
That being said, Italian drivers are AWFUL(in my opinion). Most of the time on the roads I was afraid for my life, and I considered it a miracle that we didn’t have an accident while in Italy. We were probably some of the safest drivers on the road, even if we did drive in limited traffic zones! Not to mention how confusing it was to get around Italy or find anything! Whose eyes can be peeled for ZTL signs when you are fearing for your life while trying to find a hotel at night?
I am trying my luck in Ireland this spring. Does anyone know of any similar problems in Ireland?
Sorry for the long post…it feels SOOOOO good to get this off of my chest (even if my wallet is empty).
Hi Becky,
Thanks for the long post! I’m very sorry to hear that you got 7 fines, unbelievable.
And I’m sorry to hear that you will not be coming back to Italy, although I quite understand why.
I’ll try to post a longer reply tomorrow or Monday and how you can make sure that the Verona and Pisa municipalities know that it was you who paid the fines.
All the best,
Alex
Becky,
Re the Verona and Pisa fines.
On the fine notification there should be the word ‘Casuale’, which is a sort of traffic offence reference number, and this reference is usually written on the fine, and it provides information with regard to the date that you were caught, the registration of the car you were in. If you quote this reference code whenever you contact the authorities then they will know what you are referring to. In addition, when you do pay the fines, ensure that the ‘Casuale’ information is included. You may, for example, be able to transfer money from your bank account, in which case there should be a section allowing you to specify why the transfer is being made. In this case write ‘Pagamento di multa Casuale: (Write the reference numnber and the car registration number)’ and you should be OK.
Hope that helps,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Thanks for your help. My husband went to the bank this week to pay the Verona fine (we can’t translate the Pisa one…), and they wanted to charge him $48 just to wire the money. Do you know if they accept bank checks or credit card payments? This is all starting to get ridiculous!
Just received four fines from EMO for driving in a ZTL in Florence last August, all on the same day. We were staying in the heart of the City – how can we check whether our apartment was in the ZTL?
And having read almost the whole of this blog (mind-boggling) I’m still unclear whether anyone has suffered any serious consequences from not paying?
As it is, we don’t plan to go back to Italy. They asked us not to anyway! We were travelling with my wife’s sister and Mum, who carry Indian passports, and when they applied for vias in London we were given 24 hours to produce 1200 Euros in travellers cheques, a copy of my brother-in-law’s passport (he was in India at the time) and a letter from my niece’s school confirming she was a pupil (in August!). Whe we expressed consternation, they told us to visit another country if we weren’t happy. If only we’d taken their advice!
Thank you Alex for your quick reply. I agree with you in that I have done all I can do. Maybe you can put this one worry I have to rest. Can the rental car company or the Italian authorities still charge my credit card? That is what the rental car company did, they just charged my credit card and didn’t even notify me. I had to go through all this just to find this out! I have considered canceling my credit card for that reason. Please advise. Thanks for your help!!
Forgot to mention – the rental car company charged my credit card for the admin fee for both tickets. Sorry about leaving that out…
Hi Liza,
In reply to your question: I don’t really know the answer, but I suspect that if you read the small print on the car rental agreement you will find that they can charge your credit card for offences that occurred while the car was in your possession.
However, they should only be able to do this if the fines are still valid – if they are not valid, then you have not, technically IMHO, committed any offence, in which case there is nothing they should be charging you for.
In the above case the fine does not exist, so making you pay would be a bit like asking you to pay for one extra day of car rental when you did not rent the car for an extra day.
However, having stated the above, we are now moving into the realms of contract law, and to be sure you need to know the terms of the contract – and it’s effects under Italian law. I don’t know how, but you would need to take legal advice on this.
Please remember that all of my comments, and ‘advice’ are informal, and need to be confirmed with someone who is a qualified expert. I don’t want you to get yourself in trouble for taking my ‘advice’, and I don’t want to get myself in hot water for offering advice when I am not qualified to do so.
Anyway, after the caveat, I hope you manage to sort this out. I guess you could start by writing to the hire company and asking them to refund the credit card charges, and see how they respond.
Kind regards,
Alex
Thanks Alex.
After a final check with the CA Automobile Assoc., I think I’ll send them a dispute with a double defense. Both the time limit, and a handicapped plaque.
If we go back to Italy, we plan only to visit the Riviera, Milan, and the Amalfi Coast (of course the wife will insist on Venice again). Pisa was nice, but there is so much more to Italy (and from everything I have found on the web, it appears that the authorities in Pisa are abusing this situation).
I’ll try to get back to you with any updates. Your Blog has been the best information on this subject anywhere on the web. MOLTE GRAZIE!
Rusty
Update:
I called CA AAA and they said they don’t know anything. They referred me to the local Italian Consulate.
That was a big waste of time. I specifically asked “What is the Italian law regarding the time frame for a municipality to send notice on a photo traffic violation.” The first guy I talked to said only, “If you do not pay it, maybe next time you go to Italy they will lock you up.” (not an answer to my question) I asked if they had anyone there who knew “the law.” He transfered me to a woman who would only say, “If they sent you the notice, then you have to pay.” (again, not an answer to my question) It was clear from the conversation that she did not know the law because she just kept parroting the same line.
I then went online and emailed the US Consulate in Milan (and some others localities). They sent me back this link.
http://www.patente.it/codice/201.htm
It appears that they needed to reach me in 360 days. It was 375.
I’m still going to use the double defense. I’ll let you know if anything more comes of it.
Rusty
Hi Rusty,
Thanks for the update.
But sorry to hear about the fairly standard reactions, which do not really make anyone’s life easier.
By all means have a go at using the defence and do please let me know if anything comes of it.
Many thanks once again for having taken the time to have posted about your investigations back here.
And, yet again, thanks for the molte grazie – good to hear that this post is helping some people in some small way.
All the very best,
Alex
I got one of the Pisa fines back in June 2006, and got a second notice recently.
Anyways, I contacted the Gardaí (im in Ireland), and they told me that in these type of cases, the rental company should be paying the fine to the Municipal Police directly.
It is then upto the rental company to claim the charge back of the renter, as it is in the lease contract signed in order to rent the car in the first place.
The Gardai have told me to bin the notices, and that they suspect it is some elaborate scam invloving some municipal police administrators.
If Italians were to commit a driving offence in a rented car over here (Ireland), the Gardai would fine the rental company, as they own the car. Its upto the rental company to chase the renter for the reimbursement apparently.
Also the fact that these “fines” can only be paid via Bank transfer stinks of a scam. The money is probably being pocketed by these scammers.
Feck em I say
Hi there
I was in pisa and drove on a wrong road in 24/7/ 2010 and got a fine today 1/7/2011 of 119 euro,
I will NOT pay this bill,and i will nevery step foot in pisa agin,what a crap law.
john galway
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the comment.
“Anyways, I contacted the Gardaí (im in Ireland), and they told me that in these type of cases, the rental company should be paying the fine to the Municipal Police directly.”
In answer to the above, I dug out my Eurpocar rental agreement from August 2007 to check this out, and in the General Conditions number 3, it says: The client undertakes:
c) to directly arrange to pay any fines raised against the hired vehicle during the period of the rental and to refund the Lessor any costs incurred in this respect, in addition to any payments made by the Lessor and the administrative charges quantified in the information sheets available at rental offices.
OK, this is only Europcar, but I suspect that other companies have similar conditions – note the ‘directly arrange to pay any fines’ wording.
The Gardai may be right, but how well do they know Italian law?
As for the fact that these fines can only be paid by bank transfer, I’m not sure that this indicates a scam, although it would be interesting to see an auditors report on this ‘income’ and see whereabouts it ends up.
If you do believe this is a scam, then why don’t you bring charges against them for fraud? As long as, of course, you can prove that you did not commit the offence they accused you of. Or you could take this up with the rental company and see how they react. I believe that many rental companies can and do track cars and so they may be able to confirm or deny that you were in the location when the alleged offence was committed.
While I can sympathise with your frustration, and that of everyone else here, until someone manages to prove that these fines are a scam, then they should, technically, be paid.
As I have mentioned before, a Euro MP needs to look into this and at the very least request audited accounts from the local authorities concerned.
And remember, I’m not an expert on this, and although I have quoted directly from a car rental agreement, its conditions may have changed.
If you do decide to bin the fines, then let us know what, if anything, happens next.
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi Alex – just discovered this blog and find it very helpful. I received a fine of 111,00 Euro for “Circulating in restricted traffic Zone” in Pisa. My offense date was June 4, 2007 and the notice arrived at my house on Feb. 16th, 2008 which my wife signed for.
I am within the 365 days so feel I should go ahead and pay the fine, what I am not seeming to find, is helpful information as to how to pay this fine.
I tried to e-mail the contact listed on my offense which is lucia.bigongiali@sepi-pisa.it however my e-mail keeps getting returned as undeliverable so that is no help. (Also makes me feel a bit suspicious).
I see that you found a way to pay fines from Florence on a Web-Site, has anyone found a web site for Pisa where fines can be paid? If not I am concerned about transferring money to the IBAN number listed, how would I ever know that they have received payment and that I am off the hook?
Thanks so much for your help!
Hi John,
Glad you find my little site helpful. Sorry to hear that you have joined the ‘I’ve been fined in Pisa club’.
As for paying the thing, aside from the bank transfer, I can’t seem to find any other method.
What I suggest you do is ring this number: 050 220561 – which is from the SEPi fine collection agency which works on behalf of Pisa, and see if you can confirm the bank details from them.
If I remember well, some way above in the other comments, someone mentions how to check out an IBAN code, so at least you should be able to ensure that it ends up in an official account. And, if you do go down the bank transfer route, remember to write the ‘causale’ reference number somewhere on the bank transfer, along with the date of the offence and the registration number of the car you were in.
Sorry I can’t be of much more help.
All the best,
Alex
Hi Carol,
I don’t know much about this, but I’ve had a dig around on the internet and come up with some information.
If you are Italian and your handicap is registered, then you can apply to the local commune (council) or Polizia Municipale (Municipal Police – not the Carabinieri or Poliza) for an pass which will allow you to park in the assigned spaces, pedestrianised areas and the zone di traffico limitato (restricted traffic areas).
The badge is valid for 5 years throughout Italy, but to obtain it you would need a certification from the Italian ASL health authority and to have made an application to the mayor. If you are not Italian, nor officially resident in Italy or only here for a short time (on holiday, business etc), then going through the application procedure is probably too time consuming.
What you don’t say is where you are from. If you are from within the European Community, then the blue tag may be recognised, but I’m not sure.
Are you planning on bringing your own car? Or would you hire a car here?
Generally, it appears as though hotels within the restricted traffic zones, if asked, will inform the local police about hire cars. In this case, a fine will not be issued apparently. However, if you drive into a restricted traffic zone you may well get fine, and the only thing you can do is appeal on the grounds that you have a registered handicap, but making the appeal will not be easy and you may well have to pay a car rental company admin charge, so it’s best to avoid the situation.
Let me know where you are from so I can have another hunt around to see if I can find anything useful.
All the best,
Alex
Hi, I am Hungarian, and I got three letters today from an Italian car rental company, with three times 70 EUR fine+3×50 EUR (!!) handling file expenses+VAT+postal taxes. I rented the car in Milan last year, September, and from the attached police letter I see, that all the tree incidents happened on 30th September, 9:10, 9:12 and 9:14 in the Zona a traffico limitato en Milan! The car rental company already tried to debit my banc account with 3 times 141 EUR, at that time I did not know what a hell it is, so I told my bank to cancel my card, and asked a new card. They told me they would investigate if these amount should be accepted or not, so it is a pending, restricted sum on my bank account. From the received letters I can see, that the car rental company already payed the fines. I don’t know what should I do, because I cannot imagine it is justified to fine somebody three times within 6 minutes!!!!
Furthermore it is very bad that the car rental company sent me three separate letter, and 3 times 50 EUR handling expenses!!!
What can I do? Will my bank let the debited sum to be payed to the car rental company? I amvery angry, because we rented the car with three colleagues, and it was a Saturday or Sunday morning, and we could not find our way out of Milan, and we happened to go through this damned zone, but this was not on purpose. (The whole car rental was 120 USD!!)
Imagine when I tell my colleagues that they each has to pay more than 100 EUR half year after the rental!!!
Any suggestion?!!!
I posted some comments back in Sept 07 after receiving a fine from Pisa (almost a year after the supposed speeding incident) – I have heard nothing since from the authorities (having not paid).
A colleague at work has just received notification of a fine from Naples (for not paying a Toll), again after some considerable delay. Quite how you bypass a toll without noticing, seems difficult. Unfortunately for him, the amount was charged to his credit card via the hire car company.
My best guess of what is going on, is a scam involving collusion between the police & hire companies. By ensuring that they only target foreign hirers, they avoid the inevitable flack that would ensue if they nicked locals in the scam.
Many posting on this blogg have stated that the experience (of being scammed) has put them off ever visiting Italy again.
I would offer the following advice to anyone (except Italian nationals) hiring a car in Italy:- ensure that the credit card used to pay/guarantee the hire car, expires or is cancelled within one month from the date of hire. That way, the car hire company cannot take any money (without your permission).
If I ever return to Italy (which I would not rule out), I will certainly take this step to protect my money.
Mike,
Do please write to your Euro MP about this. We need some investigative journalist to look into this.
As to your idea re credit cards, not bad. Let’s see if someone gives it a go.
All the best,
Alex
I received a fine ticket. I would like to pay but the username VO28AC1921 and Password are not valid in your system. Please let me know how to pay and proceed. My wife and me arrived late in Siracusa, we were starving and looking for a place to eat in Ortiga. I do not recall to break the law at any moment. Anyway I am willing to stop this fine.
Yours sincerely,
Federico Sanchez
I recently too received notice of a violation in Florence. The letter from the EMO stated: THE DRIVER WAS DRIVING ALONG LANES FOR PUBLIC TRANSPORT ONLY
Firstly, I’m not exactly sure what that means…but after reading through these posts, I’m somewhat at ease that I’m one of many to get something like this.
My problem is that I can’t find any evidence on the EMO website – http://www.emo.nivi.it or the other website suggested in other posts for Florence – https://ztl.comune.fi.it/tzv/Login.jsp of my violation. I would never agree to pay a fine unless they have some photographic evidence from a camera or a police report that I violated a law.
I can log into the EMO website just fine, but there are no attached documents showing an official violation. The other site does not recognize the “Numero verbale” which I was assuming were the numbers in the EMO protocol code – Pxxx/ALxxxx (7 in total).
In the Trip Advisor thread – http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187895-i68-k1475356-o100-Traffic_ticket_scams-Florence_Tuscany.html
Someone suggests to mail the Prefetto. This thread suggests that I should contact the Polizia Municipale via registered mail…should I try to contact both? (not really sure what the Prefetto is).
I wasn’t going to pay the fine until I get more of an official notice so if anyone has any suggestions, I’m open to hearing them. Else, I’m going to mail off the letters and see what happens.
“I received a fine ticket. I would like to pay but the username VO28AC1921 and Password are not valid in your system.”
I hope you have not tried to pay the fine on this site!
If you are having password problems, I suppose you could try writing and asking for another one.
Are you sure you have the right fine payment website?
All the best,
Alex
Woo hoo! I, too, have joined the “Vehicle circulated in limited traffic area without authorization” club. Only this one is in Florence (Firenze), I think – PZA Vittorio Veneto-LNO Amerigo Vespucci. Anyway, this is enough to make one’s blood boil. Notification six months after the supposed infraction!
I think what should happen is we refuse to pay and put the pressure on the car rental agencies to come up with the money for any fines. And deny any charges to credit cards if they (the rental agency) tries to assess against us. It might send a signal to them loud and clear to inform their customers of problem areas/thinks to look out for and for them to put pressure on the local authorities to ease up on tourists. I swear.
Of course, this is my civil disobedience coming out. I, too, don’t condone non-payment of fines when they are “just”.
As to my fine, I’m not certain what I’m going to do, yet. I’m wondering if I’m going to see some more of these for driving in areas I didn’t know I was supposed to avoid. And I’m sure I’ll be seeing something from my credit card company for some bogus admin charge.
Thanks, Alex and others, for all the good information and discussions.
april 25 I recieved a ticket in the mail from a trip in oct 07 .circulated in limited traffic area I went to emo there was a picture of rentel cr lic. two days later i recieved another ticket 1 hr after the first this happend in florence should i pay what happen if i do not? roscoe
Hi,
Just received 2 fines one at 15:33 and another at 15:37 both for 118 Euros!
We were in Pisa at the time and drove from the city center out to the coastal motorway and did get slightly lost on the way but never went very far from the main road.
We were in Rome last July so this fine has taken 13 months to get to my partner’s Mum’s house, where he used to live years ago.
What should we do?
Just joined the happy Worldwide band of Pisa lovers! Two fines totalling 226 Euros for offences in Via Roam Pisa over 12 months ago. Not sure if anyone has got anywhere with complaining to their MEPs but might give it a go. Certainly my plans to go back to Italy in 2009 are now over so they can wave goodbye to the 1000′s of Euros that that would have cost me and benefitted them. Hope someone from the Italian authorities reads some of this stuff but probably not.
@ Phil and Leigh,
I think, and this is only a suggestion, that the best strategy, if you were not transporting registered invalids or do not have a written record of a firm booking with a city centre hotel, would be to write to the authorities in English, simply asking for confirmation that these fines are not scams. Explain that you saw no road signs and that you were passing through, and then wait for a reply. My suggestion would be to not pay up until you have received a satisfactory reply – in perfect English.
If you were carrying registered invalids or had a firm city centre hotel booking, then send evidence of this, stating that you wish to contest the fine. Always in English, or your own language. If the Italian authorities have the capability of sending out fines in languages in other than Italian, then they must also have the capability of managing all aspects of fines sent out in languages other than Italian. At least this is my opinion.
Indeed, keep sending requests in English. I suspect that replying will cost more time and money than these fines are raising. You could even mention that you have reported this matter to your Euro MP, and until he or she confirms that these fines are legitimate – poor spelling and any other errors could well be a sign that a scam operation is active – you will not pay. And when writing, demand, yes, demand, some valid form of identification from the authorities concerned, it’s up to them to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the fines are legitimate and not scams – in Italy for most things you need to do here you must produce a passport or other valid identity document – so you should be within your rights to demand the same from them, after all, it’s only fair, and what is done here.
If the authorities are not capable of proving that these fines are legitimate, then there is no reason why they should be paid.
The Pisa, and other Italian, authorities are relying on the ignorance of foreigners. If enough people bombard them with letters requesting info in English, then they may find their strategy backfiring.
Remember,I am not a lawyer, so my opinions are suggestions, and no more – everything I state here needs to be checked out and confirmed. What you do is your decision – but I do recommend contacting motoring authorities for advice. I do not want to get you or myself into trouble.
@Lawrence – welcome to the club! And these fines seem to be on the increase, and for increasing amounts too.
Are the Italian authorities reading this? No. They just don’t know English well enough – but I’d love to be proved wrong on this!
Spread the word about these fines, as this blog post has been doing. If enough people here make a fuss, tell others to avoid Italy, and decide not to head for Italy on holiday themselves, then Italy will do something. Don’t hold your breath though – things move really slowly in the Living Museum.
Good luck to you all, and let me know how you get on,
Alex
I wrote the authorities (Polizia Municipale) in Florence a letter in English pleading my case. In my situation, there was no photographic proof that I violated a restricted zone, however they told me that an officer wrote an actual ticket. I told them that I wouldn’t pay the fine unless they could provide evidence (a copy of the ticket issued by an officer) that I violated the law.
The response I got was that the sent me another infraction in their reply! They never produced any evidence from the first infraction which they stated they had.
I have no intention of paying the first fine as they still have sent no evidence of a violation. The second fine I find even more ludicrous being that it was issued only after I tried to dispute the first charge.
Its been about 2 months and I haven’t heard anything, but that doesn’t surprise me with Italian government. My bet is that they cast very wide nets on foreigners and assume some will pay and some won’t. Also from what I understand, these notices from the EMO are not actually tickets, just notifications of a traffic violation. The theory is that if you pay off the EMO the charges would be less if you were issued an actual ticket…at least thats my personal understanding. If the EMO fine notifications were legally binding notices, they would be sent over registered mail.
That being said I’m also not a lawyer.
Hi Chris,
Did you receive the ticket? Actually being stopped by a real person probably indicates that the offence did take place.
But, if nothing was sent via registered mail, then it would be difficult for them to prove that you actually got the fine, or rather, notification of fine.
The ‘extra’ fine is what is issued in the event that a contention is considered invalid.
You are right, EMO is a collection agency. This fact in itself may make all the fines or fine notifications unlawful.
What we need here is a lawyer. Sooner or later a lawyer who has been caught out will happen upon this post and the comments, and, hopefully, let everyone know what, if anything, can be done.
It would be interesting to hear from someone, anonymously, who has not paid up, and has had nothing happen to them – especially if said person has returned to, and stayed in, the same area of Italy in which the alleged offence was committed.
As I’ve mentioned before, I have no idea as to the lengths Italian authorities will go in seeking settlement of fines.
I’m still waiting to hear of UK drivers who have been fined via the DVLA for offences taking place in Italy. There was supposed to have been some kind of link up, but I’m not sure what has come of it.
Calling all lawyers!! We need you!
Cheers,
Alex
What I meant in my earlier post was that for my first ‘offense’, I received a notification in the mail last November. I was never stopped by an officer in Florence, nor had reason to believe I committed any traffic violation. They merely told me over mail that the reason why there was no photograph of my vehicle was because an officer issued a ticket, sometime after the fact when I wasn’t present. They failed however to provide a copy of that ticket as evidence.
The additional fine was a notice of a new traffic violation (in addition to my Florence fine), in Imprunetta. They actually had an illegible photograph on the EMO website for that one. What was strange is that they included that directly in their mail response to me – doesn’t sound to me like proper protocol for issuing a new fine. I would think that one fine would be completely independent of another fine and should be dealt with separately.
Either way, at this current time I will not pay either violation. They certainly haven’t done much on their way for providing “burden of proof”.
Hello
i was just wondering, if i was on vecation in Italy and rented a car with GPS, (without any knowleg on where i can and cannot drive exept waht is the GPS showing me, the can i sue the renting company or the gps company for showing me the way throu the restricted area???
p.s. sorry for my spelling
@Chris – not sure if they can issue a ticket without giving it to you, although that’s what the speed cameras do. Push them – insist on seeing a copy of the actual ticket. Claim that you believe they are scammers, which is possible, and you will report them to Interpol or the FBI.
The reaction should be fun!
Insist on everything from them being via registered post – no email. I believe you are in the US, so this will be more expensive. Or insist on emails having real authorisation. Ask for documentary proof validated by the Italian embassy in your country that they are who they say they are.
I don’t think these things are scams – but there is a slim chance that this is the case.
@Rafi – I don’t think your idea would function. GPS devices are not officially certified, as far as I know. Read the small print. Nope, suing the rental firm would not work – they cannot decide where you drive their cars, within limits.
Rental cars do sometimes have GPS tracking systems. These can, theoretically, be used to establish where you were on a particular date and at a specific time. This could get you off.
Best of luck – but I do think reporting these things on the basis that they are scams may have so effect. I’d also like to see some evidence of just where all this fine income is ending up.
Alex
Hi Alex,
Do I detect a change of attitude over the months since you started the thread concerning Traffic Violations in Italy?
Are you becoming a tad rebellious/frustrated/outraged/bored?
Recently, my wife got her first ticket 13 months after stopping her car in a restricted area in Pisa following a call from my daughter in the car behind informing her that I had just been hit from behind by an Italian driver.
I will be taking your advice and writing to the local MEP (heaven knows who will pay attention to an MEP from N Ireland) and I will write to the local authority (in Irish maybe?) and see what happens.
I will keep you informed. Thanks for all the postings.
Peter
Hi Peter,
Yes, I think you have detected a slight change in attitude. I guess I just want to see something done.
This issue is smouldering along, and seems to be getting worse. If it is a scam, then someone is doing well out of it.
And yes, write to them in Irish, stating that if you do not hear anything back from them within 30 days, then you will consider the fine a scam and not pay it.
Try your MEP, but he or she is probably too busy attending functions and eating to bother looking into this.
Let me know what happens, and thanks for the thanks!
Cheers,
Alex
I (here in California) just received three notices of “Circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation” with a fine of 113 Euros each. They took place within a twenty minute time frame while I was trying to find a parking place near the Duomo. I don’t remember any signs restricting entrance and I was always with other vehicles, so assumed I was OK.
I am going to take Alex’s suggestion and write to the Provincial Governor (listed on the paper) asking for verification, etc. If anyone else has ideas of how to fight this please let me know.
“The English translation they sent does not make clear what the Numbero Verbale is. I have Nr. of form: 01116215 / 2007 Pr. 201089/2007, but I have entered every combination I can think of and no record comes up.”
Mine looked something like that too. I finally figured out it was the numbers on the left, but without the leading zero (1116215) in your case. Hope that helps.
Jacob, I too tried many combinations of numbers for the numero verbale and I finally figured it out. It requires seven digits of the Nr. of form and you drop the first 0. In your case, try 1116215. The photo shows only the license plate of the car. It does not show you going through a restricted area. I’m debating whether to pay the fine as mine was from June of 2007 and I just got the infamous notice yesterday by regular mail.
Thanks for the help. Yes, the photograph is not exactly helpful, is it? I suppose I was the driver of record for that date, so there’s not much too argue. I will warn you that from other websites (and as noted by others earlier in this blog), they do raise the fine if you challenge it and lose.
So, be careful regarding writing the provincial governor.
Virginia,
I think that looking at Alex’s earlier descriptions the one year clock starts ticking when the authorities receive your details. So that would be when presumably the hire company passed them on.
What I see a distinctly fishy is the way all these notices appear just within the legal one year limit. Why not tell you soon after they receive the info from the hire companies?
Hey Alex,
Nice website. Thank you for your information. I too, am a victim of Pisa’s surveillance camera, alledgedly driving in a “restricted traffic zone without authorization” The fine is 113 Euros! WOW!I have no clue what I did? I tried to bring up “the photo” and have NOT been succesful with that operation. Can you advise how I do that? Anyway, I am querying two of my Police friends in Italy on how to handle this summons. I will let you know their response. Anyway, I would appreciate any information on the validity of this summons and how I could best resolve the situation. Thank you, Bob Pattwell ( Ironically a retired Sergeant with NYCPD)
Wow, this is a very common problem, it seems like. I just received my 113 euro fine, again for driving in a “restricted traffic zone without authorisation.” Bob, if you find any kind of resolution, it would be much appreciated. Ethan
@Jacob,
“they do raise the fine if you challenge it and lose.” – Yes, this is not nice – done to encourage people to pay up and shut up. Sounds like human rights infringement to me.
@Ian,
“What I see as distinctly fishy is the way all these notices appear just within the legal one year limit. Why not tell you soon after they receive the info from the hire companies?”
– Yes, I agree, could be typical Italian sloth, or something else…
@Bob,
Gald you like the site!:-)
Seeing as you are a retired NYCPD policeman with police friends in Italy, you should be able to provide us all with some concrete advice. We all look forward to this, and thank you in advance.
As for not being able to bring up the photo – if you have managed to register and login, then I don’t know. If there is no photo, there is no proof – enter attempted scam.
Regarding the validity of the summons, I’m telling everyone to demand some form of identity declaration linking these authorities to Italy. If they cannot prove that they are legitimate, then why should you pay?
Again, though, I aint no lawyer. We need an international lawyer prepared to do a bit of pro bono work!
Here’s to hoping.
@Ethan,
Please read my replies for September 2008 for a few suggestions as to how you may handle this fine.
Kind regards to one and all,
Alex
I have emailed, as suggested above, to ask for proof of identity of the company collecting the fines ‘for my lawyer’ and also for photographic evidence of where the restriction notice was displayed in relation to where the photo was taken, as I, too, was travelling with other vehicles towards the Duomo having just picked up our car – maybe others could try the same? Re the time limits, their email reply states “Time and Way to send a infringement:
if you have rented a car by a rental company, we have 360 days from the date of that rental to use your personal details.( the rental company give s us a copy of your rental contract). If we respect these times the fine is legal.” My letter from them states two dates – 19/8/2008 and 29/8/2008 and we returned from Italy on 2nd Sept, so they may not actually have used my details within the 360 day period.
Hi Maureen,
It will be interesting to hear the response to your email. Beware though, that emails can become ‘lost’ – ensure you receive a receipt – indeed insist on it.
“Time and Way to send infringement” , does not good English sound. And “If you have rented a car BY a rental company” is not correct ‘by’ should be ‘from’.
One other thing, do check your rental agreement -as should everyone – if there is not a clause stating that you waive your rights under Italian privacy laws, then the rental company cannot share your personal information. Even if they do, then the document transfer system should be secure. Otherwise, this kind of information could fall into the wrong hands, or be tampered with.
Re time limits, as I understand Italian law on this subject. The time limit starts from when the fining authority receives your details – as being the person who committed the offence. However, if they state themselves that this is not the case, then then they may be wrong.
If you read information in the main post, and the comments from Rusty, you will discover that the lovely Italian authorities may have up to 2 years to collect fines.
Do remember that I am not a lawyer, and any information is merely personal opinion backed by some research.
All the best,
Alex
I too have been received a fine from Pisa(Two offences 8 minutes apart total 226 euro – I have been interested to note how often an 8 minute gap has been reported between offences in this blog). Anyway in my case its all doubly annoying as I was not in Italy at the time of the offence, nor have I ever hired a car from the hire company mentioned.
I have contacted the phone number on the letter and they were no help at all, they just kept asking ” well when were you in Pisa”. I have also sent e-mails to explain my position and ask for advice , all they do is reply with more advice on how to pay the fine and view the photo on the website.
The whole situation is outrageous, I too will be writing to the Italian tourist office and Pisa commune to demand an explanation.
Got my first 113 Euro surprise yesterday. Am expecting two more as Europcar took 96 Euro from my Amex in February. Car hire mob said they were for 3 parking fines in Pisa last November (3 in 20 minutes).
Being from Australia, there is no way I will be paying the fines, I am going to frame the infringement notices as a souvenir of our trip, and send a two word email to infostranier@sepi-pisa.it.
I am another ‘victim’ of Hertz and the Municipality of Pisa. My wife and I were in Italy in June 2007. We hired a car in Rome and headed North. We made a brief stop in Pisa, just to get some lunch and have a quick look around. Later in the week we stayed in Verona. In October, after our return to New Zealand, we received two invoices from Hertz for what I assumed were parking fines in Verona. They had already debited our credit card. Then in December we had another for a fine from Pisa. A couple of days ago we received an infringement notice from the Municipality of Pisa. When I tried to access the photograph I discovered your site. It was only then that I realised the invoices from Hertz were for ‘administration fees’ and not actual fines. After reading the posts on your site I have managed to see the photograph – just about all it shows is the car number plate – hardly proof of an offence. We certainly werent aware of any restricted zones.
I am hoping we wont receive further infringement notices from Verona. The times and dates given relate to us stopping outside the hotel we stayed at to unload our bags so maybe that will get us off any ‘infringement’
Reading all the comments on your site was very helpful. My inclination is not to make too much effort to pay the fine.
I have just received a 113 euro fine for the circulating in a restricted traffic zone while lost in Pisa.
My only fear is that there are more on the way. One or 2 i can handle more than that i think is just extracting the urine.
I too received a 113 euro fine last week (for circulating in a restricted zone in Pisa) from May 2007 but I have no idea when the cops got the info from Europcar – I can’t even remember which credit card I used but no doubt I have an additional charge on there which I missed. I would ignore it but I’m not sure how hot they are on nabbing you if you re-enter the country. Apparently, the UK does not pursue this type of offence with foreigners as it is not a criminal offence here whereas it is in Italy/Spain etc.
Like most others I did not see the sign either and I usually look out for these things. Anyone written to their MEP yet?
At the risk or being repetetive, I too have just received 2 requests for €113 for entering the fabled restricted zone in Pisa in August 2007. These are a day apart and are dated a year and a day after the offences. Suspecting a scam, I googled and that brought me here. I shall read what has gone before carefully but feel very aggrieved and will do whatever I can to get the fines dropped or forgotten. I’ll be reading everyone elses progress with great interest.
Alex, You can add this to your list of useful links:
http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
Jon
@ Mike – do your worst. I have heard of people getting fines when they where not in the area at the time. Do prostest.
To other Pisa victims, I’ve just added this new post:
How to pay Pisa traffic violations
I hope it helps in some small way.
And Jon – thanks for the link.
Alex
@Sam Hobbs – I love the Watchdog idea! Go for it! Feel free to mention my name, and Blog from Italy.
Cheers,
Alex
PS If enough noise is made, something will happen.
For the moment though: Don’t stop in Pisa for pizza!
I think everyone affected should contact watchdog in the UK
http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/contact_index.shtml
here is the address. the more people who talk out, the more chance of helping others
To Paul and others.
The biggest mistake I made on this was accepting the Registered letters from the municipality of Pisa. Once you do so, you have been officially served, and have the responsibility of dealing with the issue. If you do not accept the letters, then the “court” has no proof that you have been properly notified, and can not continue to hold the claim against you.
NEVER ACCEPT REGISTERED LETTERS FROM UNKNOWN SOURCES.
I too, have emailed Watchdog.
Categories look a bit blase………..but ahve done it all the same.
Hopefully something will be done.
I also phoned them in Pisa to ask if I could pay by debit card Maestro……….they didnt like that and kept insisting it was a credit card.We’ve ended up paying the fine through a World Pay system at the bank , it will cost us £9 as well as the 113 euros fine.
Daylight robbery!!!
I too received 3 fines, at a 8 minutes difference one from the other, from the Pisa police department for the same reason travelling in their restricted zones…last September.I did not received the fines by registrered mail, and did not get any additional charge from Hertz…yet! I agree to pay 1 fine but not 3..I found a site under (Prefettura di Pisa)containing documentation on how you can contest a fine, there is a template to fill out and then it is presented to either the Prefect or the Justice of the peace, but the catch is, that if they reject your request you will have to pay at least minimum double the amount of the fine i.e 226 euros each yack! and if I dont pay the fines I am afraid the rental company comes back further down the road with 3 charges of 185 euros each + their charges on my credit card, can they do this?
I’m with Paul (from Australia) on this one. The completely inadequate signage and multiple fines issued minutes apart means that any moral obligation I had to pay is out the window. A small sacrifice is that I will not be able to go back to Pisa – but then the world’s a big place.
Dave
Hi All,
I don’t know if this will lead to anything, but the European parliament is showing up in my site visitors records, and whoever it was looked at this page.
Fingers crossed!
Please take a look at the photos in this post:
http://italychronicles.com/how-to-pay-pisa-traffic-violations/
I would be interested to hear if anyone else had the hired the same car. Always assuming that it was a hire car. Pretty sure it was.
I don’t think there has been any collusion – more like poor road signs, drivers not familiar with the areas and the unrelenting pace of Italian drivers – who don’t give anyone enough time to absorb the sea of road signs – all rigidly in Italian, of course. Bigger, clearer road signs are needed IMHO
All the best,
Alex
Same thing has happened to me. Has anyone acutally been successful in getting these ridiculous fines dropped or reduced? Does anyone know if you can pay them up bit by bit (no way can we afford it as a one off payment). Also who is the best person to write to to complain about this? Thank you.
Just to say that I too have contacted “Watchdog”. However, as they are off air until October I hope this doesn’t leave it too late for us. Does anyone have the email address for the Provincial Governor of Italy?
@Christine: How does this World Pay thing work to pay this fine? I have decided I would just like to pay the fine and be done with this (and never return to Pisa again), but the truth is I am in the US, and I haven’t the slightest idea how to go about paying this fine without spending a small fortune and guaranteeing it arrives on time and in sufficient quantity.
I have contacted My MEP’s that serve the county that i live in, with a reference to this site. So it could be something to do with that.
I have over 30 days to pay my first fine so hopefully we can get a resolution within that time. Everyone needs to contact there MEP and Watchdog about this. One fine i guess is acceptable if the rules were broken but multiple fines is just milking a cash cow
John phoned our bank and told them the quandary. The girl was quite helpful and gave us 2 options the cheapest way was wolrd pay…….£9 plus the euors amount takes a week to arrive……and the swift payment which they advocate is £25!!!!!!!! but quicker………….
Come on folks – we must not pay up but challenge it. We have no way of appealling successfully. This is because my husband was the driver and he has autism. To appeal you must write in perfect Italian. He has severe difficulties communicating in English due to his disability so how on earth could he possibly communicate in a foreign language that he cannot speak one word of anyway?
Hi everyone,
Diane’s comment has got me thinking. I had a look at the Italian constitution, and more perticularly,
Article 24 [Right to be Heard in Court]
(1) Everyone may bring cases before a court of law in order to protect their rights under civil and administrative law.
The key word is ‘everyone’ in that in the Italian version, the word ‘tutti’ is used. This implies anyone and everyone regardless of nationality.
By sending out notices in English and then stating, in a contradictory fashion, that appeals may only be submitted in Italian, the Pisa, or whatever Italian authorities appear to be acting outside the rules of the Italian constitution – under which all are considered equal in the eyes of the law.
This means you may appeal in whatever language you like – it is up to the Italian authorities to translate and respond appropriately – in my opinion.
It is unjust that they send out fines in – poor – English, and then state that you must appeal in Italian – and they say this in English. I believe this alone may serve to invalidate just about all of the notifications/fines send out to date.
What we need is a friendly lawyer to present this case in Italy. The Pisa authorities may well be acting beyond the provisions of their own countries constitution.
I’d be interested to hear the opinion of others on this hypothesis.
And Diane, seeing as your husband has a disability and he was driving, then the car was being used for the transportation of persons with a disability – therefore you should not have to pay a bean theoretically.
Alex
Ashvin – I’d need to check on this. Banks reopen on Monday. I’ll ring and ask.
Alex
Guys,
In Saturday’s Guardian, money section there was a front page article on the scam that it fines in Italy. a la our experiences. It’s interesting to note that they give percentages of fines given to germans, italians and french folk while they are in Britain. it’s obvious that Germans don’t pay our fines !!!!!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money
The article is the 1st one highlighted
Alex,
Well spotted regarding the Italian legal wording. May I assume that you are fluent in the language? If so may I suggest that to get some local legal comment (not advice as such but opinion from people who claim to know the local laws) that you get onto the newsgroup called:
it-alt.lavoro.professioni.avvocati.domiciliazioni-legali
which AFAIK is something to do with jobs for lawyers but in there there should be some knowledge perhaps? I was tempted to try (in English of course) but suspect that I would be ignored at best.
Thanks again for keeping us informed as well as hosting a very useful community.
Ian
Thanks. Have a look at the bottom of the letter at the paragraph beginning “This formal notice, its serving and everything connected with it are governed by the international conventions in existence between Italy and Grait Britain…”
“Grait Britain” – where on earth is that?? Technically, no such place exists so we are surely all exempt!
There’s an article posted in this Saturday’s Guardian regarding such fines…….
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money
Caught in Holiday traffic is the article……..worth a read guys…..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money
an article worth reading guys………..it might sound vaguely familiar
hey guys,
see link for article in yesterday’s guardian……..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money
Hi Christine,
Sorry your comments did not get published immediately – they got spammed. I’ve just de-spammed them. The article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/sep/13/motoring.consumeraffairs
is interesting and reflects my own point of view, aside from whether these fines are fair or not, if you don’t cough up, then there is a risk that non-payment may lead to ‘consequences’ when returning to Italy. Please read the article.
Ian – I do speak and read Italian well enough, but my written Italian is not up to much alas. I shall speak to some Italian lawyer friends of mine about this too.
I had thought about doing this before, but their advice would have required sending letters to the Pisa authorities and contesting things in court. Such a course of action will inevitably cost money – as well as considerable time and effort to set up. I’m a little reluctant to go down such a path as I’m not too sure where it will end up.
Reading the Guardian article it does look as though the fines are legitimate, so arguing a case in an Italian court would not be too straight forward and you can bet your bottom Euro that the Pisa authorities, and others, will fight tooth and nail to hold on to this little income stream.
Personally, I reckon adverse media attention will be more effective – and cheaper, so it would be good to get the Watchdog people on board, if we can.
Should Watchdog not work out, then getting lawyers involved may be an option, even if the time-scale involved will be long – as will be the cost. Court cases take an age to be resolved in Italy – and 10 years is an oft quoted length of court cases here – possibly more if you appeal things to the highest court here or take the thing to Europe.
Let me know your thoughts on the above. Anyway, I’ll have a go at Watchdog when I’ve got a moment.
All the best to one and all,
Alex
Hi all,
Diane, and the rest of you might like this recent post:
Italy doesn’t Give a Damn about Tourists
All the best,
Alex
I am currently in talks with my MEP, they are currently looking into the issues and will keep you updated with any information i can!
Cheers
Andy
Good stuff Andy!
Keep up the great work! I’m hoping to hear back from the Guardian.
If we keep up the pressure, then something will come out of this. Might kick me out of Italy though!
By the way, the Pisa fine photo checking server appears to be down – well one person has not been able to get in.
Can others confirm that the server is up or down? Here is the link:
https://secure.comune.pisa.it/tzv/Login.jsp
Try looking at those photos once more, if you don’t mind.
All the best to one and all,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Thanks for blog info, add me to the Pisa list for restricted traffic zone without authorisation ‘violators’ Ridiculous isn’t it and clearly a money raising venture for them given how poor their sign posting and street lighting at night is.
Interestingly, when I phoned 0039 050 220561 the girl I spoke to said to send a bank cheque and £ sterling would be acceptable. I got her to confirm this twice. I’m tempted to pay but continue the arguments?
Alex and All,
I have today got home to find a pink recorded delivery slip (all in Italian) on my doormat with the sender ‘Corpo Della Polizia Locale’. I holidayed in Venice a few months ago and suspect it is a fine for some sort of traffic offence whilst out there.
My question is ‘Do people think i should bother to organise the collection of the letter from the post office?’
I fear a hefty fine that I can ill afford and if ‘they’ have no record of receipt, could anything be followed up without any such evidence of receipt?
I look forward to reading anyones views?
Steve
Hi Steve,
Hope you weren’t driving in Venice;-)!
If you are sure that this is a fine, really sure, then you could probably forget to retrieve it from the post office I suppose.
They might try again, or might catch up with you if you enter Italy in the future.
Your decision. Fines should be paid of course.
Regards,
Alex
Hi
I just received a surchage from car hire company Hertz for a “verbale fine on line” committed in April. So I suspect the actual police fine to arrive later. No idea what for though we were driving in centre of Bologna so probably some kind of restriction on traffic was in force. We were actually lost and trying to find a car park.
I have Italian friends so if the real fine arrives I will ask them to help out with investigating … and maybe paying.
My initial reaction is to probably ignore it though might want to go back to Italy one day!
Has anyone actually ignore these fine and got away with it ?
Cheers Fraser
After doing a bit of investigating, the authorities in the UK have 14 days in which to issue notification of intention to prosecute for a motoring offence. I know that does not help much, but if you think the Italian authorities have 180 days in which to notify locals and 360 days in the case of a foreigner, you must be falling for every scam in he book.
What I don’t understand is why the Nigerians are not operating this scam – there appears to be a lot of money to be made from you mugs.
Mike,
What is done in the UK is not that relevant alas. Italy has its own laws, and a totally different legal system to the UK too.
That a longer period is specified under Italian law is a reflection of the fact that things take longer here.
As for this being a scam. It may or may not be. This is being looked into by MEPs and, hopefully, the Guardian newspaper.
Watch this space.
Cheers,
Alex
Hi again!
I have just had a letter from my MEP who is very aware of this issue and has noticed its recent media attention.
She is going to take this up with the Italian embassy in London to see if an amicable agreement can be reached
Hi Alex,
Chalk me up as another victim of the Pisa “honey trap”
Like others I had probs getting my plate photo up on the website but I can confirm the comments of “Braden” that you must remove the leading zero from the “Numbero Verbale” (how user friendly is that! I develop web app by the way
). I only got this important info after emailing the contact address twice. It came in a long explanation email which I could post here if anyone thinks it would be useful.
So how do I feel about the situation?
Well yes, we were there at the date/time stated and I guess we did drive down that street. Mind you we drove down so many streets trying to find a parking place/meter that I couldn’t say for sure!
Did we see the restricted entrance sign? Well no, but even if we did would we have known what it meant? I guess not. So who’s fault is that? Okay, it’s our fault for not learning the road signs of the country we were visiting. As a driver you have the responsibility to know the rules of the roads you are driving on.
Okay, so yes, we were there at the date/time stated and ignorance of a country’s road traffic signs is no defence.
So what’s the gripe? Well it’s the time it’s taken for them to come after us! I’ve read all the words here and understand the 60 day/360 day rule but come on, how many tickets do they issue? How long does it take! I could have moved home in that time, hell I could have died! Are they going to come after my family if they every visit Italy again?
Am I going to pay? Well as we were in the wrong, I guess so but they don’t make it easy. I’m going to try a sterling cheque with the exchange rate in my favour and send it recorded delivery and see what happens.
Ciao,
dickbob
P.S. Thanks for the blog posting, most helpful and I think one of the longest running I’ve ever read!
Andy – thanks for that Sunny link. It shows you just how good Italians are at setting up scams – and that is the tip of an iceberg.
At times it is difficult to know just whether something is legitimate or a fiddle here. Which does make the Pisa situation suspect, that I’ll grant you. One famous Italian fiddle was actually advertised on mainstream TV.
Still hoping to hear more on the Pisa front.
Cheers.
Alex
Hi Alex, I have a notification from each city, 6 and 11 months later. I paid the first as I was returning just after receiving the notification and wanted to avoid a potential problem with the police. I am arguing over the second as we were displaying two disabled passes, one of which belonged to my co-driver and the other to one of our friends who was a passenger. I wrote to my MEP on the 1st occassion & she couldn’t get anywhere. “Shafted Tourist”s entry 21/09 was very helpful and overcame what I believe are deliberate obstacles to gainign entry to the secure.comune.pisa web site. Based onthe information in “Shafted”s posting, I have emailed sepi-pisa-it advising them they have made a mistake. I have complained to my MP and will also complain to my MEP. Photo is on its way to you!
We just joined the club. After getting a few weird charges on our card last spring, we cancelled the card and paid a $36 fine and haven’t thought about it since. Until today; exactly 366 days since we were in Siracusa. My wife signed for a registered letter that contained two notices for 110.10 Euros. I don’t really have any intention of paying at this point, but would be willing to pay the local fine(I assume the huge cause is due to EMO’s mark-up). I haven’t seen any posts that discuss this. Since this is the initial notification, is there a mechanism for paying the fine, not the ridiculous amount the collection agency is charging. I’m in the US—any chance I could pay the fine at the exchange rate when I was there??
Hi to one and all,
The Guardian has published my letter to them on this issue, it can be seen here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/sep/20/10?gusrc=rss&feed=money
Then scroll down to:
Point of no return over Pisa traffic fines
Kind regards,
Alex
@Persecuted Florence & Pisa Tourists
The disabled passes should get you off. And please do send those photos – there is a very, very slight possibility that they are not sufficient proof.
@John,
Maybe we should produce a T-shirt for all the ‘members’ here! Polite, suggestions for a slogan welcome.
How about:
I was f***d in Italy. – f***d = fined, of course!
As for paying the fine at the exchange rate when you were here – technically this is perfectly correct. Realistically though, I doubt whether you would have any luck. Still, it might be fun trying. The more everybody snarls up the admin bods with post, the better – I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT BETTER SIGNS!
As for the collection agency’s ‘mark-up’, not sure what could be done about that – lawyer territory.
All the best to both of you,
Alex
Alex,
Some more letters on the Guardian site here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/sep/27/10
I too sent in one but I am happy that there are several people published pointing out the problem. Let’s hope it keeps in the news.
Ian
Hi all,
Can someone please clarify exactly where we should send an appeal to these fines? Is it the address on the letter?
Municipality of Pisa
Municipal Police station
Piazza Facchini 16 – 56125 Pisa
or
Prefetto di Pisa (whoever/where ever that is!)
Thanks
Ian
Hi Alex,
I have been informed that our fine (multa) has been cancelled, I don’t have any details yet but all I can say is that it is due to providing a copy of the notification letter and disabled badge holders to the police. However, it will take 30 days before I receive confirmation. Regarding the previous posting about where should an appeal be sent to, for Pisa, the letter from the police says that the appeal has to go to the Prefetto at the Municipal Police Station, the address is on the top of the letter. However the appeal has to be in Italian, try http://www.bablefish.com for translation services. Although the letter doesn’t say so, an article quoting a member of sepi-pisa states you can fax a document to the Prefect of Pisa, 0039-050549666.
See http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187895-i68-k2226761-o20-Pisa_Restricted_Zone_Traffic_Fine-Florence_Tuscany.html
Search for a posting by Dpoid Posted on: 6:25 pm, September 17, 2008
Based upon my experience, there is no point emailing, faxing or telephoning sepi-pisa for clarification. They did not reply to my email or fax. When I eventually got through onthe telephone, the lady I spoke to didn’t really understand English. I have read that sepi-pisa advise it isn’t their role to deal with appeals. So, my advice is don’t waste your time or theirs by trying to contact them.
I’m waiting on feedback from an Italian lawyer to clarify Italian motoring law. I’ll let you know the outcome and my next steps.
Great news about having the fine annulled Mr P!
Well done! Your persistence has obviously paid off.
There is hope.
And thanks for all the info. Should be very useful for other persecuted ex-Pisa tourists.
Thanks for letting us all know.
Cheers,
Alex
No I’m not “the” Stig but I’m also a Top Gear fan and thought that the name sort of sarcasticly fits for this blog!!!!!
Nice one “stig”
But then of course, the real Stig would never reveal his, or her true identity…….
(sorry to hijack the blog Alex, back to fines and scams…….)
Phil
Hi, unfortunatly I seem to have fallen victim to the Pisa ZTL scam. Great site here btw.
Anyway, I have written to my MEP about it although I havent actually recieved anything from the Italian authorities yet.
I though I might just “return to Sender” anything that arrives through the post and obviuosly I wont sign for anything sent recorded delivery. any ideas if this might work?
Just though I would mention that the link to the Pisa vehicle photos appears to be unusually case sensitive. The word “Login” needs to be capitalised for it to work. Hope that helps.
And Yes – you can add us to the Pisa victims too. Just received our fine from June 2007 for circulating in a restricted zone. It’s a photocopy and who knows if the bank account is for real? The hire company have not answered my questions either. The photo is black and white and is simply the back end of the hire car and a piece of tarmac!
I’ve already had to pay a speeding fine and hire company admin charges from the beginning of the same holiday, 7 days earlier. The fine arrived in the same manner, although a little more official and easier to check out.
Nothing new here then!
@Phil – I was a bit sorry to hear that the real ‘Stig’ had not dropped in here! Would be good if he or she did though, or even that Clarkson bloke!
@Thescouselander – Gald you like the site! On the fine front, you could try avoiding the registered letter, I suppose. Just be sure it’s not that registered letter telling you that you’ve won 15 million on the lottery!
@Tracie R – Someone has already told me about this Login thing – can’t remember if it was a mail or a comment – I’m getting plenty of both about this Pisa thing! But you are right.
Oh, the bank account is real, that’s a cetainly – whether it is legitimate – that’s another question. Traffic fine scams are an issue here in Italy at them moment – have a gander at my recent post:
http://italychronicles.com/italian-traffic-light-scams/
As for the photo – look at this one here:
http://italychronicles.com/how-to-pay-pisa-traffic-violations/
The photos I’ve seen are b/w, and don’t show a fat lot. Question is, are the cameras officially certified? Some in Milan were not, and an Italian has his and many other fines declared null and void.
Hold onto those payment receipts people!
Cheers,
Alex
Thescouselander – which MEP did you write to?
Let me know please – another MEP is digging too – if they are not one and the same.
TTFN,
Alex
Hi again!
I had to stump up on Friday as my deadline was drawing to a close, and due to me going skiing in March in Italy i needed to pay it (well i wasn’t but the wife insisted).
I will continue looking for an answer as if i could get a refund it would be great! (I’m not holding my breath).
All in all my fine came to roughly £111. Thats with exchange rate, £16 bank charge and 5 a euro “handling” fee by the Italian banks.
Nice little earner for everyone involved!
I still think its a gross tax on tourists and personally i will never return to Pisa.
My biggest fear now is that the Italians now know that i paid the fine. If this is a real scam they will open the flood gates and send more fines.
Well, I just used the writetothem site to contact all of my MEPs, they are: Glyn Ford, Roger Knapman, Neil Parish, Graham Watson and Caroline Jackson
Hi Thescouselander – thanks for the reply. MEP Glyn Ford is aware of the Pisa problem – so another letter will do no harm at all.
@Andy,
Welcome back! Moving money between countries has never been cheap – and Italian banks love their charges.
As for getting money back – don’t hold your breath – but hold on to any payment receipt for a few years. You never know…
With a little luck someone will have a go at checking whether the Pisa cameras have been officially certified, although I imagine the Pisa authorities will be working to cover any such problems after the recent case in Milan.
http://italychronicles.com/italian-traffic-light-scams/
“My biggest fear now is that the Italians now know that i paid the fine. If this is a real scam they will open the flood gates and send more fines.”
Judging from the continual flow of comments here, which often seem to be about Pisa – if this is a scam – the floodgates are already open.
At least what is happening here might, I repeat, might, get the Pisa lot and others to check this out. Fewer comments here mean fewer fines. At least I hope so.
All the best to one and all,
Alex
Hi again,
Surprisingly my MEP has emailed me back already (very efficient!). Unfortunately the news is not good, here is the reply:
Roger Knapman MEP has asked me to thank you for your email and to reply. He has in fact investigated this issue in the past as we have had previous complaints – both about Italian cities and some French equivalents.
To be frank there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Traffic regulations and their enforcement are entirely matters for the national governments or local authorities concerned and they are not amenable to external pressure. The only way you can challenge this is to engage a good lawyer in Italy and try to argue your case through the Italian courts. However it is probably cheaper and certainly easier just to pay whatever fines they impose.
The only way in which your position has been weakened by the EU is that it is now easier for foreign authorities to enforce their judgments elsewhere in the EU. Luckily, however, we have not reached the stage, and hopefully will not, when the EU extends the Italian system to British cities.
Best wishes
Piers Merchant
Assistant to Roger Knapman MEP
So it looks like we are on our own and the EU is powerless to do anythinig about this scam.
To be honest, I feel at the moment that I just might create a website highlighting everything bad about visiting Italy. Childish maybe but it will probably make me feel better and if I could deter just a few visitors maybe I could get one back on the system.
Well, on the letter I have received it’s not the same IBAN number it’s:
IBAN IT 28 0760114000000059900076
BIC (swift code) BPPIITRRXXX
But maybe the issue comes from my bank because I thought the IBAN numer was enough…
Merci, however
De rien Juliette!
Now:
The BIC code BPPIITRRXXX is for:
POSTE ITALIANE Rome S.P.A. BPPIITRRXXX ROMA
From this site:
http://www.swift.com/biconline/
It’s for the Italian post office which is based in Rome. The Italian post office is also a bank.
Can you check the IBAN please? It does not appear to be correct. Maybe a zero is missing. These codes are confusing!
You could have a go at checking it yourself – try ‘IBAN checker’ on Google or the same in French on Google.fr
Some IBAN checking services will give you the name and address of the bank concerned.
à bientôt,
Alex
Yes you are right,
I have forgotten the “Z” on the IBAN code, which is :
IT 28 Z 0760114000000059900076
Now I can pay
A bientôt (but not in Pisa)
Juliette
Hi, I am going to Itlay early next year to Milan with the my company I work woodFX for to carry out a Carpentry & Joinery contract for 6 weeks.
As I will be driving the works van around I am just checking out the rules for driving abroad in Italy.
Just been reading the info up here and I am a bit worried about the fines they seem to hand out.
Any tips would be appreciated.
Some useful info here, Thanks
Hi, I just received a fine for driving in a restricted zone in Pisa from October 2007. For some reason the letter was sent non-registered to the wrong address (33 instead of 23) to my address in Canada. It is quite a coincidence that I actually received it because I moved from that address in the almost 1 year it took for them to send it. As with many tourists I was not aware of the restricted zones during my vacation. Is it safe to assume that I cannot be expected to pay for a fine that was sent to the wrong address? Thanks for your help.
Hi Joiner,
Actually I’ve written a couple of other posts which you might find useful:
Driving in Northern Italy
http://italychronicles.com/driving-in-northern-italy/
And Speed Cameras in Italy
http://italychronicles.com/speed-cameras-in-italy/
- if you scroll down you’ll find details of Italian speed limits in both Kmh and mph too – which could be useful.
In general you do need to keep your wits about you. And watch out for drivers not anticipating actions, and not bothering with direction indicators.
Accelerate briskly away from traffic lights, or you will be beeped. Italians are impatient when at the wheel, although they have slightly more patience up here in the north. Do not use your mobile when driving, even if many Italians do.
Wear a seat belt, although again not all Italians bother – but you will be fined if stopped.
Other things to watch out for are police ‘check points’ which occur from time to time and are manned by sub-machine gun toting cops.
Always keep all documents: driving licence, passport, insurance certificate and log book with you while driving – but never leave them in your van. And do not leave anything of value – gps system for example in your van. These are nicked quite frequently even when vans are left parked for short periods.
As for parking – it is not always easy to find spots here, and when you do, watch out for residents only parking – yellow lines on the road – sorry I said blue – I was wrong (Thanks to fellow Milan resident Andy for correcting me). The areas with blue lines are where you need to pay to park.
Within the Cerchia dei Bastioni (see my post on the Ecopass zone) area of Milan residents with a pass can park for free in areas with blue lines after 7 in the evening.
White lines indicate free parking.
You can park in the blue lined areas with a ‘gratta e sosta’ card, which you can buy from bar/tobacconists. I think the instructions are in English, or you don’t have to buy a card and can pay via a text from your mobile. You need to register for this service here: http://sostamilanosms.atm-mi.it/SostaMilanoSMS/IWeb/Home.aspx
Info is all in Italian alas. Probably simpler to just by the gratta e sosta – rub and park cards.
You may have to watch out for the Ecopass area of central Milan. You can buy Ecopasses from bar/tobacconists or pay by credit card via an online system.
If you do not pay you will be fined.
I’ll write a little more when it comes to mind.
Hope that helps, and feel free to ask questions.
Oh and you might like the 442 pub, which shows football matches and other sport and is run by some great people who speak English!
http://italychronicles.com/four-four-two/
Cheers,
Alex
Hi Thomas,
So you moved house did you? Clever, if potentially expensive way of avoiding paying Pisa fines
Seeing as they do not know where you live, so to speak, and even though you should always be a good citizen and pay fines, if they get fine notification letters returned with ‘no longer at this address’ on them, then I imagine the matter will end there. I doubt whether they will be sending out someone to Canada, to the wrong address, to hunt you down!
And as it was a non-registered letter sent to the wrong address, then that also means you really had no way of knowing you got a fine.
In the circumstances, I would probably, I stress ‘probably’, just throw the letter in the bin.
Up to you whether you pay or not. Of course I would pay, but I am not you…
All the best,
Alex
Hey Alex,
What part of Milan do you live in? LOL. In our area the YELLOW lines are for resident parking and the blue lines are where you need the ‘gratta e sosta’ card – and the times of operation (i.e. when you should pay) will be on a sign in that particular ‘block’. So, for instance, many blue lined areas may be fine for parking free overnight (as they are in my area) and you only have to start paying from, say, 8 a.m. Don’t ever park in the yellow lined areas – you can be towed away to the pound and, from what I understand, that can be very expensive.
Big thanks Andy – you are right – I was getting my yellows and blues mixed up!
I’ve corrected the comment above and credited you for pointing out the error of my ways.
We’ve got lots of blue lines near us and they always seem to be occupied by residents throughout the day! But no excuse.
Well done for the sharp eyes and for reading.
Cheers,
Alex
Some final information from me on fines… I wrote to my MP in early September about the issue of UK motorists being fined by Italian police. The new Minister for Europe, Caroline Flint replied with what I thought was a helpful letter and I have quoted from her reply.
“The Home Office has advised that the EU Mutual Recognition of Financial Penalties Framework Decision, part of the Criminal Justice Act 2008, will, once implemented, allow financial penalties imposed in one EU Member State to be transferred and enforced in another.”
“As we have received so many enquiries about this matter, we have added some information to our travel advice for Italy on our website http://www.fco.gov.uk) to warn travellers of the restricted traffic zones and the possibility of receiving a fine if the restricted zone is entered without an exemption pass. This will hopefully forewarn tourists to Italy and prevent further fines.”
We’ve not long returned from a holiday in Italy and as well as driving, we also used the train to visit Florence. There were frequent services, ran on time, were clean and cost very little. I therefore recommend using the train to visit Florence.
A slight sting in the tail is that yesterday I received an invoice from Sixt car hire for “airport surcharges and administration fee”. Not sure that that’s about so it’s back to dealing with another bill from our Italian holiday!
Arrivederci!
@ Paul – I would like to see the dispute form!
@ Joe – Glad you like the blog!
Sorry to hear about yet more fines – it never seems to end.
If you would like to send me the documents, then please do – send it to :
contact@blogfromitaly.com(email address has been munged!)
Thanks,
Alex
Hi,
It seems that I´m another victim of the Italian traffic mafia. In summer 2007 me (Austrian) and my girlfriend spent two weeks in the North of Italy driving around in a rented car. Some months later we got informed by our car rental company that violations of “circulating in a traffic zone without authorisationt” in Florence and Milano, so they took €50 respetively €60 from my credit card. Now I received another letter from the Municipality Of Pisa accusing also accusing me of a traffic zone issue in Pisa. I´ve to pay 115 euros which will go up to 187.50 euros after 60 days.
However, I read in this and other blogs before that the official delay for the fine to be legal is 360 days after the authority gets your contact details from the car company. I have written evidence (i.e. a letter from my car rental company saying they charge me 12 euros admin fees) that the car company informed the authotities on October 5 2007. My letter from the Municipality Of Pisa dates from November 10 2008 (i.e. more than 360 days).
Do I have to pay now or would this make the fine really illegal? (Guess this could also be interesting for Joe)
Any kind of help would be appreciated.
Regards,
Rich
Alex – I have never received the registered post letter. Surely I should have done to make it legal?
I really, really feel that no-one should pay. If we do they will continue with this very unfair “scam”. If people refuse to pay then they might realise that it is going to more bother than it is worth.
Can all those of us who have been caught (and infuriated, not to mention the stress caused) unite and fight these brutes through the courts?
The stress is just hell.
I’ve just read some of the entries and I agree with Ross 19 April 07, I’m seriously beginning to believe this may be a scam between the hire car companies and the local municipality. Our hire car was also from Hertz and we have so far received 3 fines – now over 18 months since we were in Italy.
By the way, my fines comes from Florence, not Pisa.
I’m not sure how to get you the form…I’ll look at the website in greater depth to find an email address. The dispute form I downloaded was from the website indicated on the fine/sanction form. After inputing the proper codes and password I could access my fine information, view the picture of my rental car in the restricted zone, and also download the dispute form.
I have good news (for me). After trying to translate the dispute form I finally relented and called the English phone number on my fine(s) and spoke with a nice lady named Sylvia Martini. I explained that I had been in Florence and had driven to the hotel in order to check in. I didn’t intend to drive around Florence because it’s frankly difficult. After checking in I returned the vehicle to the airport rental office. I have in my possession a letter from the hotel indicating my date of check in and dates of stay. The letter also indicates that I drove in the restricted zone in order to access the hotel. The letter goes on to request on my behalf that the fine be dropped because they should have sent my automotive/rental information to the authorities on the date of check-in in order to have any potential fine waived. Long story short, I emailed this letter to Ms. Martini and a few days later received an email indicating my fines had been waived.
I suspect unless you have a legitimate reason to drive a vehicle in the restricted area (e.g. driving to your hotel) you will pay the fine. I came upon this when I lived in Mexico City many years ago. On certain days you could drive in the city with the proper sticker on the windshield and if you didn’t have the sticker, you could receive a fine. I’m pleased to know I no longer have to worry about what would happen if I chose not to pay this fine from Italy. I simply do not know those ramifications, especially if you live on the European continent.
- Paul Stone
USA
I thought I was alone here, till I found this blog. My mom and I traveled to Italy in March 2007. We rented a car from Thrifty in Florence, but upon arriving at the car rental co. they didnt have our car and sent us across the street to a small car rental dealer. We drove to Pisa and through Tuscany, and back to Florence.
Earlier this year I receieved a speeding ticket from Italy with the same “the road conditions were such that the offender could not be stopped without causing danger to other vehicles” as Trond wrote on this blog back in January ’07. The ticket was a certified letter – which I’ve never received before!…was kinda excited/nervous till I found out what it was, then I was pissed. The ticket was for 173 Euros which I paid by bank transfer, which the bank tellers had a heck of a time figuring out how to do, since the ticket was in Italian. And the ticket said it was from Comune di Riomaggiore – Polizia Municipale.
I paid it as I knew I’d like to return to Italy one day. (The whole time my mom saying that it was the maffia.)
I thought it was all over and done with till I received another violation in the mail yesterday – this one was not a registered letter. But they did throw .85 euros into my fine for postage.
My fine is for 108.04 euros + postage and it says that the “locality of verification” was PZA DELL ‘UNITA” ITLAIANA-VIA PANZANI — does anyone know where this is???
The violation date is 2007-03-22 …. now I know that things move slowly in Italy, as I’ve read in the above blogs, but this was a crazy long time ago!!
The info listed for if I wanted to do a bank transfer is:
Bank: Cassa di Risparmio di Firenze
Beneficiary: Corpo di Polizia Municipale di Firenze N.O. Verbali e Notifiche
Account #: 77/00
Bank Codes: IT60P0616002832000000077C00 SWIFT CRFIIT3F
I will be paying this through their website http://www.emo.nivi.it – which I’ve already logged into, as they give you a user name and password, and there is also a photo of the rear of the car I was driving..with the date. Which really could have been placed on there digitally, if this were a scam. It’s not like they show my face in the car driving with the violation sign in view as well! But I’m paying it cause I will be returning to Italy in March and I’d like to not be contacted by the police. I also wanted to rent a car again, but after all this, I’m not too sure.
Just wanted to post my sucky experience….
Okay, so I discovered where this was …PZA DELL ‘UNITA” ITLAIANA-VIA PANZANI.
It’s in Florence, and apparently I drove through it while trying to return the rental car, with the agency being on a one way street. I remember having to drive around in a huge cirlce in order to get down the street the car rental place was on. So I can now see how I didnt see a sign about a “road reserved for other vehicles”, when i was worried about not driving down one of the numerous one ways in the area!
I’m still pissed…
More stories, more fines. It’s difficult to know what to do about this, aside from saying don’t drive in Italy.
Some form of park and ride scheme would be useful – maybe an Italian entrepreneur reading this could come up with something.
Thing is, as far as I can understand, these cameras are designed to catch naughty Italians more than tourists. I’d love to know just how many tourists drive around Italy every year.
Perhaps some form of pass could be paid upon renting a car which would automatically inform the municipal authorities solely for those on vacation in Italy. Need more info before proposing this as a realistic solution though.
Sorry to hear about yet more people being caught out.
Kind regards to one and all,
Alex
Alex – re my previous email, as I have never received a registered letter (and the 60 days have now passed) are we still liable to pay? We have heard nothing more.
Hi Diane,
Have another look at the Time Limits section in the main post on the surface of this ocean of comments, and see if you are out of the woods.
I tend to think you are not, in view of the fact that they know you were the driver, in which case there is the 360 days which the authorities have to send out the official fine.
If you do not pay and they try to up the fine, then you could argue that seeing as you had received no official notification – ie registered letter you did not think you should pay on the grounds that the initial fine notification could have been from anyone.
Hope that helps.
Let us know how you get on.
Regards,
Alex
Thanks for jumping in Ian.
For what it’s worth, I think your advice to Marie is sound.
If the notification is not in order, then there is little the Pisa authorities can do – although to be fair to them, and as I’ve only recently discovered, Pisa is one of the few places in Italy that has put in systems allowing it to send out fines internationally – in other ZTLs foreign drivers are just ignored – simply because the local authorities/police forces involved do not have the systems in place to send notifications out of Italy.
There is a remote chance that your passport may be flagged, but knowing how disconnected Italy is, I doubt this will happen. Italy has three major police forces: the carabinieri – which do not bother too much with traffic offences, the polizia – which do bother with driving offences, and the very local municipal police – which deal with minor offences such as parking and these ZTLs. For a passport to be flagged, the municipal police would need to inform the Polizia – who also check passports when you enter Italy. However, I very much doubt whether this is happening, and it will not happen for a good time yet. Italy does not even have an e-gov system yet, and the good old boys in power simply do not understand technology.
Put very simply, if you receive a registered notification – then you should really pay – if you do not – then it could potentially be a scam – and I believe you are within your rights to treat it as such and ignore the things. Indeed, the credit card companies should not really be deducting sums until a formal registered notification has been received by those who committed any alleged offence. Even if you do receive a fine, you can try to dispute it – and slowly but surely, and again to their credit, the Pisa people seem to be gearing up for dealing with appeals received in languages other than Italian. At the end of the day though, the admin costs must be exceeding fine generated income – especially when people appeal.
Again – these are my opinions, and I am not a lawyer, nor do I claim to be an expert on the subject of the payment of fines received while in a car in Italy. My aim is to inform, and assist, if I can.
As Ian stated – do what you think is best – although reading the post above and the comments may help you make a more informed decision.
Kind regards to both of you,
Alex
Hello to all you fellow bad reckless drivers who like me received a fine for driving in a restricted area in Florence.
I was in Florence in May 2007 and rented a car. In March 2008 the rental company took €50 from my credit card. At the time I believed it was for a speeding fine or parking fine. I didn’t argue with it and happily paid it.
However, I have only now, 23rd February 2009, received a letter in the post from the italian authorities telling me I must pay €118 for driving in a restricted area.
The letter arrived by ordinary post. I intend to ignore this letter and wait and see what happens.
I will not be paying this fine. It is now 19 months later. There is a legal saying in Ireland ‘Justice delayed is justice denied’. I dont need a legal expert to explain that to me. Surely there must be some common legislation throughout the EU.
I have also instructed my credit card company not to authorise any payments to this company without contacting me.
I am also returning to Italy in April 09 but I dont intend on renting a car this time.
I will write again if I hear anymore about this. I dont believe I will.
I know that if a foreign tourist in Ireland incurred a motoring fine like this the Irish authorities would not persue them across Europe. The Irish authorities dont even persue motorists across the borded to Northern Ireland so I douubt very much that the lazy Italians will.
Your fellow bad reckless driver, Alan
I would like to pay the Pisa, Italy “circulating in restricted traffic zone on via Roma” traffic fine of Euro115 by mail from the US, but I do not see an clear address on the notification letter to mail the check. Does anyone know the correct address in Pisa to mail payment? I do not want to use a bank transfer since there is no good way to track it, and I have already cut a check in Euros (at considerable cost here in the US). This kind of traffic violation is indeed frustrating for visitors and will impact future visits to Italy for many people I expect. Thanx for your help….randy
Have a parking fine in a restricted area and circulating in restricted area in Pisa. I initially sent the tickets back with a letter stating that I did not understand what I did wrong. This probably avoided the dreaded high administrative fee from the rental car company because they already had my name and address. My question is this. Has anybody been charged on the rental car credit card for the actual fines incurred? Honestly, how are they going to get the money from anyone in the US or Canada or any country outside of Europe unless they are able to charge back to the rental car credit card? I feel sorry for Europeans as they may have some leverage, but I don’t see what leverage they have outside of Europe? I have read many posts about administrative charges incurred by the rental car companies, but have not read one case of fines actually being paid by the rental car credit card. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated. I would probably pay if It was easy to pay with credit card, but not with exorbitant wire transfer fees. I don’t even know where to go to get a check in Euros.
Hi Earl,
“but have not read one case of fines actually being paid by the rental car credit card. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.” If I get you, then the rental car company will not try to charge the actual fine(s) against the credit card used for renting the car, but will often charge an administration fee for the time they spend telling the police who the driver of the car at the time of the offences was.
If the rental company did pay the fine directly, then that would give you no time to defend yourself, and you would not be happy! And as sometimes happens here, fines are sent out regarding cars which may have been many miles away from where they were caught on camera. For example, if the rental car company used your credit card info to pay for an offence in Rome, when you where in Naples all the time – you would be pretty cross.
Anyway, as I understand it, rent car agencies are not authorised to do to charge everything and anything to your credit card. Look at the rental contract for details of what they feel they can charge you.
If that does not help, let me know.
Alex
Alex, thank you for the reply. As stated, they already have my name and address, so no administrative fees have been charged to the CC. I have contacted the rental car company and requested info on their rental car contract and the contract fine print. As this was 10 months ago, I have the credit card charge receipt but threw the contract out. So, I don’t have a copy of the rental car agreement. I really don’t see what leverage they have on anyone outside of Europe and that is what I am trying to determine.
Earl, the short answer is that they have no leverage with regard to people outside of Europe. They have to rely on honesty and moral duty.
As I have stated before a few times, there is a remote possibility that the names of those who have not paid fines will be flagged and they may stopped when trying to enter Italy. This does not happen as yet, but one day this may become the norm. Another scenario is that if you stay in the same Italian region in the future then your name may be recognised and you may be visited by the local police. The key word is ‘may’ – again, I am not aware of this actually happening. And, from what I have ascertained, Pisa is one of the few Italian authorities which has systems in place for collecting fines at an international level. This is why Pisa is the Italian city which is mentioned most often in the comments here. I wrote a post on this: http://italychronicles.com/pisas-misunderstood-leanings/
There are, as far as I know, no international agreements or treaties that concern motoring offences committed by residents while driving abroad.
Within Europe there is talk of making motoring offences enforceable at European level, in that if for example someone from Britain commits an offence in Italy, then the fine for such offence may be collected by motoring authorities in Britain. I do not know if this system has been implemented.
Please note that I am not a lawyer, nor to I make any claim to being an expert on this matter. Any and all advice I may offer is informal and subject to confirmation via proper authorities and/or lawyers.
Best regards,
Alex
I want to take this opportunity on behalf of ALL the readers of this valuable information to THANK YOU wholeheartedly for your many efforts and articles. It has truly been helpful. I know it has helped me a great deal. Thanks again!
This subject has been discussed at length on numerous forums, notably Trip Advisor, and there is a very informative summary here: http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm Read it and form your own conclusions. That page is updated quite frequently and I look forward to seeing there updates regarding just how far the Italian municipalities will go to collect their money. It’s big money we’re talking about – a milion here, a million there – pretty soon it adds up to be a significant part of their income. Personally, I foresee the use of collection agencies unless a drop-off in tourism can be attributed to fines that total more than the cost of a trans-Atlantic plane ticket.
The Florence authorities are really exploiting foreign tourists my fine was 102 euro for the offence of “Moved around a restricted traffic area without authorization” I have no idea when or what this was but it seems execessive to me. If you want to avoid bogus driving fines I suggest you avoid the Florence area!
Alan, I have, after 9 months, received one of these letters, regarding moving in a restricted zone. It was not by registered post and more concerning is the date on the photo / infringement does not match the date I was there ! Did you hear anything after not paying ? I am in some what baffled as to what to do. Also, I have emaled them to contest the date, we were with another family the whole holiday and I assume they can be valid witnesses (and more over, they did not receive a fine and followed us the entire time).
Interested in your views, I have 20 days apparently to pay up
My wife yesterday (29 June 2009) received a fine for 101 Euros for the same thing reported by another correspondent, i.e. “Moved around a restricted traffic area without authorization”. How would one even know?! We were visiting Florence last September and we live in New zealand. The fine is very expensive in New Zealand dollars and definitely over the top. It appears official, so is probably not a scam, but rude on the part of the authorities.
Yesterday I was telling a Chinese student friend of how the Comune Di Firenze (Florence metropolitam authorities) had fined me 103 euro for “MOVED AROUND A RESTRICTED TRAFFIC AREA” He told me that he and a party of 10 Chinese Malasian students from Glasgow University were also fined 70 euro each in Florence because they all bought travel tickets and they were not told and unaware that the tickes needed to be verified.
This is appaling it must be stopped! I’m a coward and paid the fine but I hope someone does take a legal stand against them like Interpol or the FBI !
After a long battle, I have settled the fine and have contacted my local legal and foreign affairs MEP. They did respond and wrote to a number of key people in Italy on this subject. I suggest you all do the same. In the mean time I wrote to nivi credit the following as this really is very unnaceptable.
bla bla…
Anyway I have now made the payment, and will not appeal as no one succeeds, however I have contacted a number of MEP’s in the legal and foreign affairs area and have stated you are hiding behind EU membership to penalise innocent tourists and enforce payment (if you were not an EU member, I would NOT have paid). If a legal case ever arises, and this is deemed excessive, or illegal, under EU case law you will be obliged to refund all fees, charges, and costs.
I will pursue this beyond all comprehension, and as I stated I have cancelled our 2010 holiday to Italy which will cost the country more in lost tourism revenue than this fine will gain them, the fine amount is totally excessive and outrageous.
Hi Jason – keep plugging away.
Although the Italian authorities are within their rights, lots of people are not happy.
Is there anywhere else in Europe where fines are a real problem? I have not heard of anywhere, but perhaps someone else has.
As for the comments being in some odd order, I’m not too sure why this is the case. I’ve had a look around and found that I am not alone in this odd order of comments thing. One remedy seems to be to dig into my database, but that scares me. Last time I did that, my site fell over!
What I might do is to close comments on this post, and add a new post with new comments – which should be in the right order!
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Best,
Alex
Note to everyone – the comment order appears to be a bug in the system I use to publish this site.
As far as I know there is no solution as of yet.
Once something comes along, hopefully the comment order will become more logical, as it once was.
Sorry, and thanks for reading, and commenting.
Alex
And why do the posted entries not appear in date order?
Hi,
Just to say that my son paid the fines yesterday and by the time he paid the cost of the bank draft it was about £317. Just for parking in the wrong spot. It is just ridiculous! He has friends in Italy who said they would not pay it but to get a lawyer onto it would have cost even more and he might have ended up having to pay double the amount. If he never wanted to go back to Italy well I suppose he wouldn’t have paid it but he does.
It really would put you off going to the country and I think it is time something was done about it. Had it been one fine for the offence, well that would have been acceptable but four for the same thing is beyond belief! They have some nerve that’s all I can say and makes you wonder if they really want tourists. Does the government know what the polizia are up to – I wonder.
There’s a lot of inaccurate information, incorrect assumptions, false logic etc in the comments on this page, much of it in the direction of “they can’t catch ME”. Once again, my advice is to read this page: http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
All over Europe, municipalities depend on fines for income. And they are getting serious about coordinating fine collection.
Hi Richard,
You are probably right with regard to the comments on this page – but people do tend to get a little het up when they receive unexpected fines.
But, as you almost say, they can catch you, and they will – they make quite a bit of money out of it. In Italy though, they have been several reports of municipalities tampering with their cameras to increase their income.
Still, I would recommend that others go visit the link you mention – lots of useful information there.
Best,
Alex
Hi, I have received, in Canada, a notification of violation for driving in a restricted area in Rome. It’s been 18 months since I was there. This did come by registered mail and does threaten to send the ticket to the DEMO for collection.
My question, has anyone had experience in not paying these fines? What happens after a year or two? I might never want to go back to Italy but I would like to travel to France and the UK and I wonder if there are any travel ramifications from not paying. Also, if you haven’t paid have you heard from this collection group?
Thanks
Sheryl
Sheryl,
While not paying is an option, there is evidence that it is not a good idea. Please follow this link and read the section ‘What to do about it if you are ticketed and fined?’ and then the sub-section ‘Non-EU residents’.
http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
From what you will read, it looks as though non-payment could turn out to be more expensive than you would imagine – but do also look at the main post way above – there are 7 pages, alas. Look for the section on Time Limits – your fine might be outside them.
Do also check the circumstances of your fine too – you might have grounds for it to be annulled, for example driving to and from a hotel you booked in a restricted traffic area.
As far as I am aware, not paying a fine in Italy is unlikely to have consequences in other European countries, but this could change, and may have already. The best option is to simply pay up and forget about it.
Hopefully someone else will chip in too.
Best,
Alex
Hi
We have had a total of 5 fines for driving in restricted areas in Florence in August 08. When the first two arrived I emailed and objected, explaining that there were four people in the car, all of whom were qualified and experienced drivers. None had seen any signs. I didn’t take the same action with the subsequent 3 fines but wrote to one of Florence’s MEP’s and our MEP to complain.
I have had no response from the Italian MEP but our MEP raised a question with the relevant committee in the European Parliament and sent me the response. There is now to be a requirement within all European countries for clarity in signage and that common signs should be displayed in different languages. It will take time, as these things do, but at least if the Italians are made to clean up their act it will be something. If signs are then not apparent people will have grounds to Appeal.
We recently received 3 Registered Letters demanding payment within 60 days. No idea what has happened to the other two.
We love Italy but our view has now been soured by the tourist rip-off tactics imposed by the Italian authorities. Wont be going again, so voting ‘with our feet’ so to speak.
Has anybody got advice re paying fines by credit card? That would be so much simpler.
My notification arrived 13 months after the offence, Is this a record?
I can read Italian and saw no restriction sign on the Via Roma. How can I challenge? In the UK you can go to court if you know you are innocent but that doesn’t seem to be an option provided by the Comune di Pisa.
Isnt the whole thing a terrible bore, spoiling the Pisa experience in retrospect?
i have just recieved a parking ticket from sardina from retal car i hired not hertz., the fine is for 76.25 euros to be 112.25 in 60 days the alleged offence was for parking on grass and th roadside to go to a beach. With many italian cars doing the same, no signs but only the my hire car with the ticket .>?>? how strange, the offence was on 20/07/08 and this arrived 434 days later , as you said 150 days is maxium time to inform me! nivi emo.nivi .it can this be for real ?? PS The hire company swiped my card manuel and i made sure the slip was returned to me when i returned the car. Also i got scammed by avis car rental at menorca airport where i hired a car paid cash for hire then got hit £300 on my credit card when back home hence never let them have your details when cars returned
Hi,
I got a note through the letter box yesteday, telling me that there was an international letter to pick up: it had to be signed for. Intrigued, I hurried along to my local post office today to pick it up. I signed for it. Doh.
It was a Violation of the Highway Code notice. Apparently, when I was in Alghero, Sardinia on 29 May 2008I “entered illegally a resticted traffic area”. I was in Alghero on 29 May 2009, and I did hire a car on one day while I was there, though I can’t recall which day it was. The notice tells me I was caught on an approved video system, though there is nothing on the “emo” site to confirm this. What there is,though, are copies of what look like letters to and from the hire car company. The latest date stamp on them is 8 October 2008. By my calculation, that is some 364 days ago. I think the ******* are too late. And I’m going to tell them so. I’ll let you know what they say.
I’m with your earlier commenters: I like italy and generally, the italians. I’ve holidayed there four times, and spent lots of my hard earned income there.But this is not right. This system clearly targets tourists. I saw no sign, and probably wouldn’t have understood one if I had. This system suggestst an aggressive and insulting attitude to foreigners. It is most unsympathetic. Even assuming my objection is accepted, I’m not going back. I’ll spend my money somewhere else.
Regards
Richard
(Re my previous email: you will have spotted the deliberate error. The “offence” was committed on 29 May 2008, not 2009. That is, over 16 months ago. And whilst I appreciate Alex’s comment about the naturally dilatory italians, the delay in all these cases is suspicious. They miscalculated in my case, but it seems to me they are deliberately “taking it to the wire” so that no-one can really recall who, what, where, when, how or why. Putting to one side the actual time limit they give themselves, this delay is contary to what the lawyers would call “natural justice”. And I think I might make that point too….)
Richard
Excellent site Alex. I have just received a 110euro fine from Alghero in Sardinia – seems as though they are all at. I am an experienced european traveller and drive in Europe at least 4-5 times a year. I am also a frequent visitor to Italy and have a good knpwledge of their road traffic signs, yet I did not notice the sign in Alghero which I understand is very discreetly hidden and as such is proving a very valuable money earer for a City who is desperate for cash (The Italians are not noted for their willingness to pay taxes). I do understand that the Italian Government was fined heavily by the EU in 2002 for precisely the offence of deliberately targetting foreign motorists. They have probably fine tuned their procedures but are still in effect generating cash from this Council sponsored “Scam” My European MEP is taking this up in Brussels. I suggest if you have been affected, you should write to your MEP, – that is of course what they are there for.
As to the question of recovery of the fine, what can they do in the |UK to recover this money
Dear all you fellow bad reckless drivers, I joined this group recently and I learned from reading your blog that I am not the only one to recieve these traffic fines after one year or more…
I would like to summerize what I learned:
1 – in the issue of transfering this data to credit bureau or to the national/international police- I dont know enough.
2 – in the issue of the “forced paying” by the credit card that you gave to the car agency, I checked with Visa EU regualtions, and they are not entitled to debit you after more 3 monthes !!! If you are debited (for the fine or for the handling) , you can ask the Visa issuer of your card to cancel this transaction.
I hope you found this results helpful,
As far as I see, I will not pay…
Good luck to all of you,
Adi
I’m so glad to find this blog. My husband and I visited Italy in 10/08 and rented a car and drove all over Italy. Our daughter was studying for one semester in Montepulicano so we thought it would be perfect to visit her and see all of Italy by car. I even communicated with her Professor that arranges the studying abroad program for hotel information, etc., in various cities. He gave us his advice on a hotel in Florence. Our hotel was in the old historic section of the city. We were not advised by ANYONE, the Professor, car rental agency, hotel, etc., to be aware of the limited traffic area. We did watch for any signage with a line running through or X or in red and did NOT see any during our drive around Florence. One late afternoon we needed to do 1 load of laundry and found one not far from our hotel but too far to walk with a load so we drove, as we could not find a parking place, we circled 3 times before stopping and parking. We did not see a sign and we definately were not the only car parked along the street. Like many others here, we received the additional charges by our rental car agency and we contested because we were not aware of any violation and they couldn’t advise us of the violation so I was successful in having them reversed. Then several months later (not sure how long at this time) we received a letter/notification from the police so my husband did some research and learned he could appeal but not until we received the registered traffice violation. Therefore, when we received the THREE separate registered letters he signed for them (apparently our mistake?) We are being charged 107.45 EU for each one and they are all within 10 mins or less. After reading that we can appeal however if we do not win our appeal we will have to pay double we are now too afraid to appeal. In reading above I found where someone indicated that if you receive more than one violation for the same incident within one hour you only have to pay for one? Does anyone know if you must appeal the other two and if so on what grounds? Or do we just pay for one and not address the other two? Thank you so much for all of this great information. We live in the US and now I’m scared to death that out of no where we could receive something similar from Pisa or Rome or Sorrento or Naples or Sienna or Montepucliano or ???? We loved Italy and are so disappointed with this deceptive way of entrapment. We may not visit Italy again, however, some of the cruises we would like to take originate in Rome or Venice so we are too fearful of what might happen to us in landing at the airports and don’t want to take any chances.
Hi Alex; I received a violation dated May24,2009 for “circulating on roads reserved for other vehicles without authorization” The violation allegedly occurred on May 24, 2008, at 204pm. After having my attorney check it out I decided to pay the fine. One week after paying the fine, I receieved another notice, this time dated October 2, 2009, for a similar violation, this one ” circulating in limited traffic area without authorization”. This allegedly occurred also on May 24, 2008, at 157pm. Any comments?
Hi Jim,
Sorry to hear about the second fine, as I’m sure are you.
The situation regarding the receiving of two fines one after the other is a little complex. I was speaking to some Italian lawyers about this the other day.
It is possible to escape these second fines, but, you need to show that there was no way you could have avoided the second photo. In other words, and this is where it is fiddly, if you could have exited from the ZTL, but did not, then a second, third etc. etc. fine produced by a ZTL camera is perfectly valid. I think leaving and then re-entering a ZTL is counted as being good reason to fine you too – but you would need to have a lawyer confirm this.
I’ve no idea whether there is a limit to how many fines one can accrue or in what time period.
With a little luck one of the lawyers I know will chip in and help us all understand just how many fines one can receive as a result of entering one of these zones.
Best,
Alex
PS If you need the name of an Italian lawyer (one based in Milan, not Pisa – let me know)
We also got such a letter from “Corpo di Polizia Municipale di Firenze” and we have to pay €98,10 because we were driving in a restricted zone. We don’t remember this as it took place in May 2008. They made a picture of our bus. I searched at the internet for more information and found info at the website of our dutch road/traffic organisation. They also show a photo of the restricted area sign, so you can see it here:
http://www.anwb.nl/rechtshulp,/voor-wie/vakantieganger/Boetes-in-Itali-.html
It seems to be legal so we probably will have to pay the money. I will first call the ANWB legal aid to know more about it, for example what will happen if I don’t pay.
Roos (Netherlands).
Hi Alex,
I am a UK resident. I received a fine today dated 01/08/10 for driving in Rome on 10/09/08. The rental company was contacted by the Italian authorities in December 12/08, which means the date of the infaction is > 365 days after the authorities got my detais.
Is 365 days the time limit they have to issue the fine or is it 2 years?
if it is the former, do I contact them to let them know that they have been too slow so I won’t pay, or do I just ignore it.
If it is the later, I drove on that day to a car park near to our hotel in the historical centre to drop off our bags. Would it be too late for the hotel to contact the authorities to wave the fine?
Thanks for your help
Cedric
Much as I would like to, I don’t see the relevance of the 60 day limit for the owner to respond with the identity of the driver. Particularly in the case of my son from the UK who hired a car in Germany and has, supposedly, committed a violation in Rome. I would presume that the Rome authority is bound by the 360 day limit to proceed, but that only starts when the driver data is received, regardless of how long it took to arrive; why should Rome be penalised for the inefficiency of the Germans?
The offence in question was committed on 30 July 2008. According to the papers lodged, the enquiry of the rental company is dated 14 November 2008 and the response is stamped as received on 7 September 2009; the demand is dated 29 December 2009. Without the co-operation of the rental company (Budget) and going to court, I have no basis to challenge the timing of events, even though I suspect that the efficient Germans replied in good time and that the response (the hire agreement) was not date stamped until someone got round to processing it.
Hi, I have just had 3 fines at €115 each after 17 months since the offence, it has been over 360 days since the rental company told the police my identity. What should I do?
Hi I have just had 3 zone fines at €115 each, but it has been over 360 days since the police knew of my identity (can prove it). Do I have to pay the fines
I received 3 registered letters from Alghero in Sardinia. Containing…you guessed it 3no fines for entering an illegally restricted traffic area. The offences were committed 467 days ago! All 3 offences were committed at the same time 3 days in a row. I’m sure I made errors while driving in Sardinia however after the large amount of time that has passed how could I honestly remember or more importantly how could I defend myself (i.e. maybe the sign that I was supposed to have seen could have been vandalized or had a tree growing in front of it). As I said, I’m sure I made mistakes, and the fines may have been genuine however to receive 3no fines (totalling €330) after nearly a year and a half after the offence with the note “the owner of the vehicle, as indicated by the competent authorities, must be considered guilty of the infraction until proven otherwise”…….i.e. guilty until proven innocent.
I have been to Italy twice since and will not return to Sardinia and probably not Italy again, these idiots are taking money from you and me and the good people of Italy who make a living from tourism.
All the best,
Mark
I think I am in much better position than everyone else – I’m Russian… but still – the same story : we rented a car in Rimini and were seen crossing into ZTL area in Rome . It might be amusing but the limited traffic area sign we apparantly violated can be found on google map – http://maps.google.ru/maps?hl=ru&rlz=1T4GGLR_ruRU329RU329&newwindow=1&q=italy+map&lr=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=%D0%98%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%8F&gl=ru&ei=q0hnS6KGOo7z-QaHmuWdBw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQ8gEwAA
There is one thing that I do not understand – there is no internationally (under Vienna convention of 1968) recognised traffic sign which prohibits access to the area, only a note about limited traffic area written in italian. Do they think that everyone should speak italian ? One should be at least notified about ZTL areas (of course I only learned about this later after “commiting” the offence). It all looks like a tourist trap to me.
I contested 39 EUR charged to me by the rental company, and got it back. Though I had to cancel my CC.
To make the story even more fun – the rental company initially billed me twice the same amount. It took me 6 months to get money back (it was returned not on my card but by Western Unoin) and only after I called German head office of the rental company.
So next time I would not rent a car in Italy.
Anyway they are not going to get anything out of me, not even the postage (the italian taxpayers should cover the postage, I reckon)……I cannot imagine them collecting anything in Russia.
I too received the dubious restricted traffic zone violation just today. It’s terribly infuriating and certainly does not make me want to travel back to Italy especially since thee assumed violations occurred in 9/08. My question is this? I contacted my rental company they provided the italian authorities my info on 1/26/09 (date stamped 2/3/09 at the Florence Police). They then sent me the letter advising me of the fine in letter dated 1/21/10 which I received on 3/3/10. The time from the date on the letter to the police to the date of the fine letter is exactly 360 days. However my argument is that notification has to take place within 360 days. Even if we are to give them the extra time for them to be notified by the rental agency, they are still outside the 360 day limit by the time I received the letter. Not that I expect this argument to get me far, but I am going to give it a try. In the end I have no plans to pay this fine as I am not a citizen of the EU, nor am I going to give out my credit card or banking information to any foreign web site/ govt. In fact the only time I used my credit card in italy was when I rented this car, then 4 months later I start getting random charges in Italy for everything from electronics to gas ($1300 total). Luckily my credit card co shut things down before it got worse, and credited me back the charges but that is going to be the last time any personal information gets shared overseas. In fact I actually thought this certified letter I received from the Italian police was going to say they jailed the douche who stole my credit card and there was going to be restitution paid to my credit card co. so I was happy to sign for it.
We visited Sardina in Aug 2009 and I today received letter and copies in italian only of offences in driving into the centre of Alghero 5 separate fines of 40 euros each plus adfmin fee of 40 euros and it looks like the hire car company intend to debit my credit card used when I booked the car
All these oversights by me were totally unintentional – not easy driving in a busy town! and some of the timings are within minutes of one and another ! II have never had any such problems whislt driving anywhere else abroad
I am really not happy and wonder what if anything i can do
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR CREATING THIS BLOG YEARS AGO. ALEX. I just found it and have gotten a headache from reading so many complaints, ridiculous stories, helpful advice and information. But the main thing this morning has done has made me realize I am not alone! For that I am so grateful. I feel much better and less stressed and worried. I received 2 notices of ‘infractions’ from Florence from a visit in June 2009 in the mail in Jan. 2010. After reading a while, I am going to contact AAA, who rented the car for me, and let them know they should inform all their clients NOT to drive in Italy until they become informed of this corrupt con game. I also plan on writing a letter to be published in the local newspaper. I may even try to contact a congressman/senator and see if they are aware of this shameful scam. Our area thrives on tourism and we would never treat our visitors who were lost or trying to get to their hotels and/or rental agencies like this. Mercy and compassion and empathy must not ‘translate’ with these authorities. All the other Italians I met and spent time with were wonderful!!! Real kind, thoughtful, helpful human beings. I am so sad that now I’ve been turned off to going back to what was my favorite country in Europe.
Hi Melinda,
Glad you found the information here moderately comforting and that it helped you feel less victimised.
Despite being first written way back in 2006, it continues to be one of the most ‘popular’ posts on Blog from Italy.
Through the years people have tried to do something about what does, at first sight, seem to be profiteering, but nothing has been done -I think Italian local authorities find the income too handy.
By all means write to a congressman. I hope he or she can stir up some mud -but I doubt it. It’d have to be someone capable of rattling Italy to the core.
Good luck. If you do move the odd mountain or two, please let us all know – and you might save another 15,000 people or so from some heartache. I hate to think how many people have now decided never to visit Italy or never to return.
I wonder if anyone has tried doing a cost benefit analysis re this pesky tourist tax?
All the best,
Alex
Hi, I will never visit Italy again.
I think the Italians have become too greedy, I received a notice from car rental company and money taken from my credit card. I stopped payment by phoning my credit card.
I now have fines from florence municipiality x2. I am not going to pay. September 09 offences commited now july 10. Will let you all know if they persist in chasing me for payment.They said circulating in limited traffic area twice in just over one hour.
I live in the UK so member of eu. I will sign for nothing if it comes from Italy or if I think it is anything to do with above.
Cheers Gordon.
I am from Australia and like a lot of people here, I have just received a traffic infringement from Pisa for “circulating in restricted traffic zone” from 21 Sept 2008. Am I going to pay – NO. Anyone paying a fine like this that is not from Europe is crazy. As far as I have researched there is no International reciprocal agreement with foreign countries. I emailed the fine to a friend in Italy. He said not to pay, not even bothering to appeal. They are full of hot air. They are just hoping to collect revenue from gullable tourists.
For the purpose of providing info to US (or perhaps non-EU) residents who received EMO letters, I have the following:
Two VTL violations July 07
Received first letter February 08 (regular mail, not certified)….ignored it.
Received second letter September 08 (also regular mail), ignored this one too.
Have heard nothing since, and it’s over 31 months since the violation.
You can draw your own conclusions about the consequences of nonpayment, I’ve certainly drawn my own.
This is very interesting from a legal point of view. Most jurisdictions have a time limit on prosecutions for motoring offences. In the UK it is 6 months. This is obvious really. We are all subject in the EC to the European Convention and you have to be able to have a fair trial. If you only get notified 18 months after the event that you are alleged to have committed a moving traffic offence, you can hardly be expected to remember whether, eg you were the driver or your partner was.
Where Italian law differs is that it distinguishes between Italians (who have to be notified within 150 days) and everyone else (360 days). I can say with some confidence, that at least in relation to EC citizens, such a distinction is illegal. Why do I say that? well the European court has already decided that it is. The case is called EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00.
In the 21st century no such distinction could be justified. After all, the hire company have your details on computer. A letter takes the same time to get from Roma to London as it does from Roma to Milan.
My guess is that the Italian government would not wish for their legislation to be challenged in the European Court, so for those of you facing fines imposed more than 210 days after the alleged offence (60 + 150), I would try sending a notice of appeal threatening to write to your MP, MEP, European Commission etc., and citing the above case.
For those of you who are notified within 150 days, then you will have to take your chances. What chance are you taking? Well the reciprocal enforcement legislation does provide for European Arrest Warrants! But hey! who wants to go on holiday in Italy anyway?
Hi Peter,
Very interesting what you say about this sticky situation –
“I can say with some confidence, that at least in relation to EC citizens, such a distinction is illegal. Why do I say that? well the European court has already decided that it is. The case is called EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00.”
Just the kind of information I had hoped this post may have unearthed. The text of the case you mention is here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?val=264059:cs&lang=en&list=264059:cs,250793:cs,246392:cs,&pos=1&page=2&nbl=13&pgs=10&hwords=C-224/00~&checktexte=checkbox&visu=#texte
There is also a bi-lingual version from which sections in Italian could be quoted at the Italian authorities.
Here is the case summary:
Member State which maintains in force a disproportionate difference in treatment between offenders based on the place of registration of their vehicles, by providing that where there is a breach of the highway code committed with a vehicle registered in that Member State, the offender has 60 days from the recording or notification of the offence in which to pay the minimum amount prescribed or to bring an appeal if he has not already paid the minimum amount, whereas where an infringement is committed with a vehicle registered in another State the offender must either immediately pay the minimum amount prescribed, or, if he wishes to contest the alleged infringement, he must provide security equal to twice the minimum amount, on pain of having his driving licence confiscated or his vehicle impounded, has failed to fulfil its obligations under Article 6 of the Treaty (now, after amendment, Article 12 EC).
In simple terms, if the Italian authorities cannot notify people from outside of Italy in the same time as it takes to notify Italian nationals, then the fine is invalid.
This would count for EC citizens, though not necessarily for those from outside of Europe.
Big thanks to you, Peter, for mentioning this.
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Brilliant blog – I stumbled on it while looking for info about an alleged traffic violation in Brescia. I really admire your tenacity & commitment to revealing the hidden mysteries of Italian motoring fines.
In January I received an €18 “administrative expenses” bill from Avis – charged to my credit card in December – for giving my name & address to Comune di Brescia. Avis enclosed a poor 2nd- or 3rd-generation photocopy of an undated “verbale” – in Italian – apparently from Brescia Municipal Police, not addressed to anyone. My tourist Italian is good enough to “get around”, but not enough to understand what the notice says, although it seems to relate to entering a ZTL last July (we were there at that time). Also, the text is partly obliterated by some of the official rubber stamps Italians love to plaster over everything, so is illegible even to a native. I have not had anything at all directly from Comune di Brescia.
I gather that a penalty notice must be sent by registered post. I assume the notice must also state the amount payable, when and by what means, and be addressed to a particular person by name (else why would they ask Avis for it?). So at present all I have is an unaddressed notice forwarded by a third party (Avis) by ordinary mail with an inkling of a potential unspecified fine that might in future be issued to someone for something. I do not regard that as official notification, or an obligation to pay anyone anything. The 360-day period expires on 27 June, so I’m not holding my breath. Also, from previous posts, the EMO procedure looks like an invitation to accept a reduced fine – like the UK fixed penalty system – without the hassle & potential extra cost of challenging the allegation. I’ll wait until I get my EMO notice to decide if it’s valid.
Anyhow, my credit card issuer subsequently reversed Avis’s charge when i rejected it as unsubstantiated because:
* Avis had not:
o identified the rental term/s and/or condition/s (all in Italian) under which it claimed payment
o supplied any evidence of the “administrative expenses” claimed, how they were calculated or where, when and/or how they were incurred.
* Neither Avis nor Comune di Brescia had supplied any evidence:
o of the nature of the supposed traffic violation
o that the alleged violation is legally valid
o that the alleged violation actually occurred
o of the penalty applicable for the alleged violation
o that any such penalty had been imposed
o that I am liable for any such penalty.
So, it seems worth reclaiming car hire admin charges if you have sufficient reason – if the “fine” is suspect or not proved, any associated fees & charges must therefore be equally invalid (someone mentioned that in an earlier post).
Your Important Update of 17-18 Feb mentioning an EC decision prompted me to peek at EU Human Rights issues, which has raised some very interesting questions about topics discussed in many previous posts. I’ll post about that later.
Hi Pablo,
Glad you’ve found the info useful.
As you say, waiting until an official recorded delivery notification is the best way to go.
Your way of dealing with the Avis admin charges sounds interesting, but from what I remember of a Eurpocar hire contract, there is a condition which seems to allow hire companies to pop these little extra charges on without asking – I think this is a no-no, but am not sure -not being a lawyer. It does, however, seem reasonable to expect Avis to justify the extra charges -otherwise one might be able to sue them for credit card fraud!
Hopefully others will read this; I’ll add it to the main post, and others on related subjects; and try the same tactic – it might cause Avis et al to moan to the Italian authorities which, in turn, might get something moving. I would not hold my breath though – this post has been on the www since 2006, after all, and not a fat lot has changed – except for case C-224/00 being brought to our attention by one kind person here. As I say, I’m not a legal eagle, but I did hope that someone night chip in with some useful info – call it the power of the web.
Let us all know how you get on if you have a spare moment or three.
Cheers,
Alex
Thanks Alex. For all I know the Avis contract might be similar to Europcar, but I’m not inclined to translate masses of small print to find out. I doubt the Fraud Squad would be interested in pursuing an €18 scam, and my card issuer refunded it anyway.
I’m not sure if the C-224/00 case applies to me as the car was registered in Italy, so I think they only have 210 days. If so, it expired on 28 Jan, so their time’s up already. What do you think?
My post my Human Rights thoughts tomorrow if I get the chance.
Hi Pablo,
It’s good that your card issuer smelled a rat – not many seem to.
As far as I am concerned, and from what I have understood, the nationality of the car does not count. What counts is the nationality of the driver and the period. The C-224/00 case appears to restrict Italy to maximum of 210 days to hunt down European Union resident offenders whether they are Italian or not. The longer period
If I were you, I’d still throw C-224/00 at them. Worth a try – then you can decide whether to pay up or not – but have a go before the fine increases, if possible.
Best,
Alex
Hi again Alex, and many thanks for your prompt response.
I really don’t want to be picky about this, but I looked carefully at EC case C-224/00 before posting, and I’ve looked again to make sure. The determining factor is not the nationality of the car nor its driver, but which country it’s registered in. The title of the case (from the 17 Feb Important Update at the top of this blog, from the link to the official case record and from Peter’s and your own posts) is:
“Difference in treatment of persons contravening the highway code according to the place of registration of their vehicle”
So an Australian driving a Swedish brand of car made from Korean & Indian parts, assembled in Mexico and registered in Hungary would be treated differently for violations of the Italian Highway Code from exactly the same car & driver but registered in Italy. The driver’s nationality or domicile makes no difference at all.
Sorry to be so pedantic, but I believe it’s an important distinction that anyone affected needs to understand before assembling their argument.
Best regards,
PabloUK (another non-lawyer!)
PS What HTML coding do you use for enhancing text in your blog?
Oops! Re-reading my own post just now, I realise it could look like I’d tripped myself up.
What I meant was that before case C-224/00 drivers of cars registered in Italy were treated differently from those registered elsewhere. Now of course – as you rightly point out – all drivers must be treated exactly the same, no matter where they or their car is from.
Sorry!
Hi Alex,
Thanks for the helpful blog!
Just received a “Circulating on roads reserved for other vehicles and indicated by traffic signs” penalty notice from EMO, for an alleged indiscretion in Florence (Via Senese) in a French registered Hertz hire car.
First notice was received 549 days after the ‘crime’ was committed.
I don’t remember driving in any restricted area on Via Senese and have subsequently ‘travelled’ on the entire length of the road on ‘Google maps’ and cannot find any places where such an offence could have been committed.
Does anyone have any idea what or where I could have done anything wrong on Via Senese (a bus lane perhaps?!)
If I log into the EMO website, with the password supplied on the notice, is it sophisticated enough to realise that I have logged in? At this stage, I don’t want to admit to receiving the first notice (it was sent as unregistered post).
EMO have contacted me directly and Hertz have no knowledge of the fine and have not provided my details to EMO (hence no admin fee). Hertz have confirmed that they will not pay the fine on my behalf.
The notice from EMO states that they got my details from RAC Finance. Does anyone know who they are? I have never had anything to do with any such company and am concerned why they have provided my details to EMO.
Also, without knowing who provided the details, I have no way of proving whether the Italians have satisfied the ‘360-day’ regulation.
The notice from EMO also states I have 20-days to appeal. Shouldn’t I get 60 days? Particularly as it took them 549 days to contact me!
I sent an email to FCO and the British Consulate in Florence but they just confirmed that there wasn’t much they could do to help (which, admittedly is fair enough) but they have recently added a warning to future tourists on the FCO website.
I accept that ignorance is not a valid defence and non-Italian nationals should educate themselves on Italian highway regulations but surely common sense should prevail for alleged minor indiscretions such as this. Although, if it subsidises those long Italian lunches in the Comune di Firenze, then why would they stop this lucrative ‘scam’!?
I agree that if a non-domicile is caught speeding or driving erratically then they should be chased and fined (although 549 days is still an excessively long time to issue a fine!).
Surely common sense dictates that a foreign driver might stray into a bus lane or similar reserved section of road in their attempts to stay as far ‘right’ and ‘out of trouble’ as possible.
I do admit that one of our party drove through the ZTL on the morning of arrival in Florence. However, this penalty notice does not appear to relate to the ZTL as it occurred on Via Senese, outside of the city centre.
We had to drive through the ZTL because we were attempting to reach a hotel in the ZTL area. The reason we wanted to stay at this hotel is that it had parking facilities and we did not want to leave the car in an unsecured parking facility. After spending 30 mins trying to locate the hotel, we gave up, left the central area and ended up staying at a hotel just outside of the ZTL.
I don’t want to pay the fine because I believe it to be invalid (C-224/00). I don’t want to appeal because the appeal process is so long-winded and they’ll probably throw it out and fine me more than double!
Let’s hope C-224/00 works! I’m going to Venice in September and am hiring a car to drive around Northern Italy for a week.
Thanks
Pedro
Hi Pedro
It is some time since you posted – how did things work out for you? I also fell into the same trap in June this year. At the fork of Via Senese and Via del Gelsomino as you head north there is a bus lane (the left hand part of the fork). You cannot see the sign until you pass through the traffic lights (beyond the point of no return) and the word “BUS” painted on the road will be completely obscured by the car in front of you. Assuming you manage to spot the sign amidst all the other extraeneous rubbish advertising everything from local festivals to shoe shops, it’s too late. If like me you were in a line of traffic you can’t just stop, and even if you did you couldn’t turn around and go back. I was merely following the road towards a car park indicated in my guide book with several cars in front of me and a builder’s van up my chuff- It’s about a 25 minute walk from the town centre so I hadn’t imagined that I would encounter a ZTL (I even checked before driving to the city so that I would stay clear of the ZTL).
Did you end up paying this one or get out of it somehow?
All the best
Kemiker
Hello again Alex. I hope these few suggestions will be useful to readers who want to contest their motoring fines. Just pick out the bits that apply to you.
Many posts above complain about the Italian authorities’ delay in notifying traffic penalties and their insistence on communicating in Italian. Fear not – the law is on your side, as I think both issues contravene the European Convention on Human Rights, specifically Part I Article 6:
“1 – In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.
2 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
3 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.”
NOTE: This should not be confused with Article 6 of the EC Treaty referred to in Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update” at the top of this blog.
Key words/phrases italicised above are “within a reasonable time”, “presumed innocent”, “promptly”, “in a language which he understands”, “in detail” and “free … interpreter”.
You must be told promptly of an accusation – presumably so you can recall the circumstances of the incident and collect any evidence you need while memories are still fresh. It follows that if you were not told promptly, then you have obviously been denied the opportunity of “a fair & public hearing within a reasonable time”. Thus it seems the Italian law allowing up to a year to tell you about an accusation is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. As Mike, James & Peter have mentioned, a UK prosecuting authority must serve a Notice of Intended Prosecution within 2 weeks of an alleged traffic offence, and a penalty notice or court summons within 6 months. If the UK can do it, so could Italy – if it wanted to. You can form your own opinion of why Italian authorities delay sending a penalty notice for a year or more. My guess is it’s to reduce the likelihood of drivers remembering what happened or having kept car hire paperwork & hotel/restaurant/fuel/shopping receipts (to prove when & where you were) after such a long time. Depending on its timing and the extent of detail given, notification of a violation (such as an “amicable” EMO invitation to accept a fine) might satisfy the requirement to inform you promptly of an accusation. But the penalty notice sent by registered post is the important one, so if it arrives after 210 days you can reject it as denying you the option of a hearing “within a reasonable time”.
Regarding time limits, if you receive a penalty notice ask the car rental Co for a copy of documents showing when the police asked for the renter’s data and when they were given, so you can check whether the prescribed timescales were complied with and reject the penalty as out of time if they over-ran. If they claim they’re allowed 360 days remind them of European Court case C-224/00 (see Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update”). Although that case concerned disparity in the treatment of drivers depending on where their cars were registered, it reinforced the principle in ECHR Pt.1 Art.14 that laws must not discriminate between nationalities. Thus you can reject any liability on the basis that the 360-day rule discriminates against non-Italians, so is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable.
You can insist on being told of the accusation in your own language, despite what Italian authorities might prefer. Again, an Italian law allowing authorities to demand communication in Italian is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. It seems you are allowed 60 days from receiving a fine to pay up or appeal, so you could email or fax – in your own language – on the 59th day from receiving a penalty notice in Italian (or an incorrect own-language translation containing bad grammar or wrong spelling such as “Grait” Britain), saying you don’t understand it and ask for an accurate translation. Meanwhile the 210-day clock is still ticking, as the notice doesn’t count as served unless it’s “in a language which [you] understand”, and of course sent by registered post. If it contains any factual errors (name, time, date, location, car Reg.No, make, model etc) you can safely ignore it as it does not accurately describe the accusation and is thus unprovable – but don’t tell ‘em as they could re-issue a correct one within the 210-day period. The longer you spin out the arguments the more they would be likely to abandon the fine or run out of time. As Alex suggested, you could impose your own time-limit, such as “If I do not receive the information requested within 14 days I will assume you have (a) withdrawn all accusation/s, (b) cancelled all associated penalties & charges and (c) ceased all action/s”. With luck they won’t bother to provide a proper translation in time, or just give up. If they complain send them a copy of Article 6 – in English – with the relevant text highlighted (to be ultra-helpful you could also send the Italian version if you can find it).
Another thing: in earlier posts Alex (and the Bella-Toscana link) suggested that Italian law assumes you are guilty until proved innocent. That too is incompatible with the ECHR, under which – as in most western-style democracies – the accused is presumed innocent until proved guilty. Thus an authority has no right to collect a penalty unless the accusation has been proved. Just saying you were seen in such a place at such a time does not prove you were. A photo of your car – or its number plate, or the driver, or the road – proves nothing without context such as time, date, place, nature of infringement and applicable law – including evidence that adequate signage was in place and operative (the international symbol of a red ring on a white background with a pictogram and/or text specifying the restriction). A close-up snap of a number plate without any verifiable context might lead a suspiciously-minded person to wonder if there could be an element of fakery involved, but of course I can’t imagine who could possibly be so uncharitable… Find the road in Google maps – there might be a “street view” showing if there were proper signs, properly positioned and visible. You could make their life more difficult by asking for proof – in your own language – that the recording equipment has been properly maintained, calibrated and tested, as we can in the UK for camera-related allegations. If the authority can’t prove the camera was working properly, who’s to say it recorded the correct time & date when the photo was taken or if a restriction actually applied when it was taken? Ask for the make & model of equipment and copies of certificates etc (translated to your language) showing this particular device has been certified & approved for this particular use; does it have a good or bad reliability history? You can probably think of a string of other things to slow up the process which you can keep trotting out, one after the other, until they get bored. If they don’t like it or won’t co-operate, tough – the greedy, profiteering scumbags shouldn’t try to rip off foreign tourists with unverified accusations. I certainly wouldn’t even think of using the appeals procedure, for which you have to deposit twice the initial fine! If they try to pursue you for non-payment, you’ll probably have a whole bunch of unanswered technical questions as your defence. The bottom line is, they must prove their case if asked.
EU member nations are legally bound to ensure their laws comply with the ECHR. Therefore I believe the above applies to all nationalities driving in Italy, not only EU citizens. National laws that don’t comply with EU legislation can be challenged in the European Court, as Alex pointed out in his 17 Feb “Important Update”. Italian cities probably issue several million of these fines every year (the Bella-Toscana article said 859,959 in Florence alone in 2008). If even only 10% were challenged it would clog the fines system to the extent it would be unworkable – and might even persuade city authorities to review their policy of killing off the tourist trade.
For those concerned at the legality of the above strategies, I must stress that none of them contravene any valid regulations or laws. On the contrary, they rely on applying the appropriate laws, though not necessarily those the Italian authorities would like. These arguments are equally valid if your own national traffic authority tries to collect under some sort of reciprocity agreement.
Like you Alex, I’m not a lawyer, just an ordinary bloke who can read & think, and I’ve no idea if any of this has been tested in court. If not, who’s first …?
——————————————————————————–
After considering all the above you might conclude – as I have – that the best course of action is to save a lot of time & effort by regarding these extortionate & unproven demands as nothing more than speculative “fishing trips”, and merely ignore them. Really – without reciprocal legislation between national traffic authorities, how’re they gonna get you? I guess the time to worry is when you wake up next to a horse’s head…
I was in Italy in May 2008. Like others, I received two Euro 55 charges on my credit card at least six months after leaving the country. I contested the credit card charge and was told by the rental company it was for traffic tickets. I allowed the charge, and then later received unregistered mail at my USA address from the police asking for euro 125 payment for each fine. One in Florance and one in Arezzo. Same Italian agency writing about both tickets. I contacted the rental company and questioned why I was being charged for fines I had already paid. They told me the Euro 55 was the service charge for “ratting me out” to the Italian police and was not payment of the fine. It irritates the heck out of me that I could have to pay 2 x Euro 170 for a parking ticket. I did not pay the fine and figured I would never return to Italy. Silly me. It’s 2010 and I am planning on returning next month. I will not be renting a car. Any chance I get “caught” at the Italian border when entering the country?
I’m italian and if I get a fine here in Italy, I pay. If I go abroad and get a fine there, I pay. Why don’t you want to pay your fines in Italy if you were driving in a wrong way? You have to pay, like every person. You’re not special because you are tourist, everyone should act in a correct way
I’m glad you respect the rules, MM. I think many who have left comments here would be happy to respect them too – it’s just that a) fines arrive after an age b) people feel ‘hoodwinked’ because they have no idea they are entering the restricted traffic zones.
And tourists are an easy target – because they do not know Italian. Better street markings would help.
As for the fines, the time limit for sending out fine notifications should be 6 weeks, and the time for paying them, 6 months. We live in the 21st century now – this should be possible.
Best,
Alex
Well the reason that everyone non Italian is up in arms is that a) the fines are very high by European standards – speeding fine in UK £60, France €45 if you pay promptly. Also the Italian authorities take a ridiculous amount of time to sent the notices and treat foreigners differently to Italians. They insist that we communicate in Italian and say the fine will be doubled if the form isn’t exactly right and/or you lose your appeal which is just a way of trying to pressurise people in to paying up and not making a fuss even if they have a legitimate defence.
3-18-10 ALEX: I just read your IMPORTANT UPDATE OF 17 FEBRUARY 2010 about Case No. C-224/00 and the <210 day notification requirement, etc. In as much as a month has gone by since your VERY HELPFUL post, has this position been challenged or otherwise contradicted? I don't see any new posts. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR HELPFUL INFORMATION. signed "Tuscany Two".
Hi Dick,
As far as I am aware, this position not been challenged or otherwise contradicted. I believe one or two of the readers of this post will be attempting to use this challenge, and I am hoping that someone will let us know how they get on.
I think someone will, seeing as many have kindly supplied some very useful information on this sticky issue – for which I thank them.
Glad you have found the information useful.
To keep yourself up to date on things, I suggest you subscribe to the comment feed for this post: http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/feed/ using something like Google Reader or a suitable email program.
Best regards,
Alex
Well, whaddayaknow – this very topic (and other car hire issues) is on the agenda of an EU consumer issues conference in Brussels today. There’s a brief discussion about it, focussing on Tuscan ZTLs, on BBC Radio 4′s “You & Yours” programme here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/ram/2010_11_fri_02.ram. If that link doesn’t work, click the “Listen” button next to “Car hire complaints” at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/listenagain/friday.shtml.
Let me know if you can’t listen and I’ll post a précis.
Thanks, PabloUK,
I have tried to listen, but cannot open either of the files. Could be because I’m in Italy.
If you could post a précis – that would be useful. Thanks.
I’m curious to know what was said, and I imagine others might be too.
Best,
Alex
Alex,
Those BBC links are working now. I guess when I posted them the relevant files hadn’t yet been loaded.
I’ll post a précis soon in case anyone still can’t open them, though the piece didn’t add a lot to what’s here already.
Hi Pablo,
I just clicked on the links again, and guess what? I can hear the radio programme excerpts now!
No need for a précis, but thanks for the offer!
I’ll have a listen tomorrow.
Thanks again.
Best,
Alex
Pablo – I listened, and have emailed the You and Yours team – pointing them towards this post.
If they get back to me, I’ll post something.
Fingers crossed!
Best,
Alex
If i might make a suggestion cancel your credit card after hiring your cars abroad. That way you wouldnt have any charges applied that you need to claim back. Whenever I’ve entered Italy the immigration official checks only that you are who the passport says you are. there is no electronic check done on the passport like in the UK. In all cases no words are exchanged and you are waved on so he can check the rest of the plane.
hope that helps
Hello there,
start of July 2009 me and my wife took my in-laws to a weekend in Florence. As in trying to make it as much relaxing as possible I rented a car to drive us around and to visit places. Arriving in Florence the problems started. I was dark already, and the car didn’t have any gps-system, so we were driving around for some time trying to find the hotel. In the end we actually did find it and the people of the hotel we kind enough to let us know they had a spot in front of the hotel, which was reserved for them only and that we could use to leave the car during the night. They also told us that on Sundays parking wasn’t paid. As we were leaving on a Tuesday and they said they needed the parking spot for deliveries and possible other tourists we dropped the car off in a paid parking lot during the last night of our stay. A few months after having turned in the car with the car rental company, I noticed they had charged me an extra 192€ for speeding, which I honestly couldn’t remember whether it was right or not, so I didn’t complain. It WAS possible, though I have the impression I was just following the flow of traffic. Now March 22nd and 23rd of 2010 I received FOUR letters with each a different case number stating I violated Italian road laws and have to pay 105.85€ each! It comes from this emo.nivi.it thing, is nicely written in Dutch, though with some small errors, it states that if I call this and that number I will be answered in English, Dutch, French and German, that I have two ways of paying and that I have to do this within 20 days! Not even once did I find a notice under the windshield cleaners to let me know I was violating while parking. My father in law does around 50000km on the road per year, I average around 60000km per year and I really don’t remember having ignored any road signs, nor did my father in law. That nice little weekend last year is going to cost me this year’s holliday, like this. Any suggestions on what I should do?
Kind regards,
Diederik Fontaine
ps: I’m a Belgian, my wife’s Portuguese and we live in Holland. Do those suggestions I read briefly also apply to our situation? I mean the 150 days, the 210 days…
Wow, 2 year long blog, and I read it all! My daughter and I spent 4 weeks in Europe in July 2009….only two days in Florence, Italy….we rented a car and took a day trip to Florence from Chianti . I remember, vaguely, that I saw signs limiting something and tried very hard to avoid them, although the signs weren’t at all clear about which vehicles or persons they were restricting and from what……our GPS sent us in circles….any way, I received, 8 months later, 4 tickets for driving in a restricted zone….three on our ill-fated day trip (two of those only 10 minutes apart) and one en route to the rental car agency to return our car! More may be on the way! Yes, the EOM is legit. Each fine is 106 Euros, or $150 x 4! I plan to not be home to sign the registered mail and will not pay the fines. I’ll let you know if I suffer any consequences more serious than I would suffer by paying the fines! I plan to return to Italy, but not Florence – it was our least favorite place in Italy any way (loved Rome, Verona, Venice and Siena!) and with this feudal ticketing system, is now our least favorite place in Europe!
A very helpful website regarding traffic fines in Italy and the EMO is http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
I agree, Laura – it is a useful site.
Sorry to hear about your fines. You can try disputing them, as you’ll have understood from ploughing through the comments here, but it does look as though people are simply caught out because they do not know the area, or Italian road signs.
Eyes need to be kept open.
If you have friends who are thinking about coming to Italy – warn them!
Best,
Alex
Everyone,
My girlfriend and I recently received 3 tickets total for various violations from our last day in Rome dated 3/1/2008. Ironically enough, we were driving around trying to find a way to get the rental car back to return it on our last day of vacation! Two of the fines were for “Driving in a limited traffic area w/o authorization (3 mins apart) and the last was for “Circulating on a bus lane registration” – received 7 minutes later.
The 3 registered mail items were received a few months ago, with a creation date of 9/25/2009 at the top of each letter. Almost 1 1/2 years later!! Each fine is about 106 Euro (~320 total).
Anyway, after reading through the details above, as a US resident the Italian government had 567 days to contact us about the fine. But after adding up all of the days between the actual incident (3/1/08 to 9/25/09) – the total elapsed time is 573 days.
If I read the info above correctly….the Italian government did not notify us in the time allowed by law. They’ve continued to send us notices, and last week we received a “Final Reminder” for all three fines via Registered mail.
If the comments above are correct – and these fines are not valid by law (as applies to a non-Italian resident)…..how should we proceed? Is there someone we can contact to have this issue resolved?
If the fines can no longer be enforced because the government did not start drafting the communication to us until after the max deadline of 567 days….is there someone we can contact to have this taken care of? I don’t even know where to start, and I want to make sure to stay on their good side if possible as we’d like to visit again someday!
Thanks in advance for any advice you (or anyone on the site) could offer!
Hi Alex,
I’d like to submit a comment in your “Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy” post.
It’s quite a lengthy comment and if you decide to add it to the post you might want to edit it seeing that you’re an English teacher and …. English is not my mother tongue.
I too have received a Payment Notice, so-called “courtesy letter” from EMO.
So I had a long look at what I could find on the Net and I know wish I had never done it!
I was astonished at how much information I could find, so many people all over the world writing about those dreaded Italian fines.
Anyway I stumbled on your blog and decided I’d like to contribute considering this “Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy” post is so …………..short!
Could you give me an e-mail address I could write you ?
Best regards,
Al
Hi Al,
If you want to write to me about these wonderful fines – don’t worry about your English – please use the contact system. Click here to be taken to it: http://italychronicles.com/contact/
I look forward to this long post becoming even longer. 500+ fine comments, and counting!
Best regards,
Alex
just recieved a fine for 115 euros for driving in Florance it is 224 days since the ‘offence’
I am most shocked as there were 3 cars & i was the only one with a fine & one of the couples have been 5 times to Florence & twice to Pisa and never recieved a fine & also had no idea of the permit scam. It is such a long time that i have no idea which hire company i even used. I am so angry,. What would happen if i refuse any registerd post and ignore letters? I am also tempted to appeal but then dont want to accept liability!
Please help me
I will never return to Florence again i feel like telling them that all the time we were there we were hasseled by street traders & beggers who frightened the children.
It appears that the scam is not fair as only certain cars are picked.
I thank you in advance for your reply
What a great blog! Thanks Alex. I am relieve and disturbed at the same time to know we were not alone in our Pisa fiasco!
The same old song as very many on this forum – received notice from Hertz that we were being charged for them supplying our details to the police – 18 euro. Which we refused to pay. Then we got our letter from the Italians, a full year and 2 months after the violation of moving in a restricted zone took place.
We plan to go back to Italy in a couple of months and hope to use Hertz again as they are the cheapest rental company.
Since all this took place a few years back (2008 was the violation) I am thinking of just ignoring it further and seeing what happens. What I don’t want to happen is for us to go and collect our car from Hertz, only to be told that we owe them the 187.50 euro!
Any thoughts?
Alex,
Sorry, I just re-read the info and realised our fine is null and void as we received notification a year and 2 months after the violation took place. (I was confused as well as I thought it might be be measured from the time the details were received from Hertz).
You mentioned in your blog that you were drafting a form letter that one could send to the relevant authorities in such an instance, saying that the fine in void because notification came after 360 days. Do you have the letter on a link somewhere?
BTW – I think you are great and I am sending loads of good karma your way for all your helpful info.
Susan
Susan – someone has written to me and has given me the impression that the fines may still be valid. I’m checking on this and will reply when I have an answer.
Do note that I am not a lawyer.
Best,
Alex
To F V Serra
EMO (Division of NIVI Credit) is “using” the Italian car rental companies (Italian entities) to obtain the personal data of the car renter who committed the traffic violation during the rental period.
In Italy car rental companies are unable to collect fines on behalf of the police force.
EMO (located in Florence) is officially mandated by an ever increasing number of Italian Municipalities to collect fines from foreign drivers.
There’s nothing illegal up to this point.
But EMO doesn’t have a “ business license” in the US or any other country.
EMO identifies the offender, translates the fine received from the Police and then notifies the offender.
These procedural costs (27-30 € of the total amount of the fine) are not reimbursed to EMO if you don’t pay the fine.
EMO works on a commission basis, around 35% + VAT of the amount of the fine paid (not included the procedural costs).
Even collection agencies (debt collectors) duly established in your country of residence can not collect fines on behalf of Italian municipalities. Milan tried (and failed) to do that in Switzerland last year.
There has to be an agreement in force between Italy and your State of residence.
To GF & Martin
The Italian authorities have five years (Art. 209-Italian Highway Code) to collect fines from the date of the infraction.
This time limit can be interrupted by any official act relevant to the fine!
(But first (for something to happen) the police must send you the fine (Official notification via registered mail) within 360 days from the date of the infraction!)
If you get an official notification, the 5 year time limit starts running from the date you received the registered mail……………….
The multiple ZTL (restricted areas) fines (3 within 3 minutes!!!) are unfair to say the least.
In theory you have the same rights as an Italian resident to dispute the fine.
But an appeal by a foreigner (in such a case) is practically impossible for procedural reasons!
Italian residents have had (partial) success in diminishing their ZTL fines.
So……………….
Yet another. I live in Japan but am from the UK. I just got an email from my parents saying they have received a notice from EMO. I have a 190Euro fine from 13 months ago.
It says if I fail to pay within 20 days then it will go to court and that they could instruct UK bailiffs to coma and possess goods from my UK address (my parents place, I am not a UK resident) I have read EMO cannot do this.
Any ideas how I should play this? Is the 360 day law from the offence or when the police gets the details, this seems to be very unclear. I don’t have a problem paying the fine if I made a mistake but don’t want to get scammed and overpay and certainly don’t want to if I am within my rights not to.
Any advice gratefully received!
Hi Nick G,
If you receive official notification via registered letter, and that is beyond the 360 days, then you can write to the Italian authorities, explain this, and ask then to declare the fine invalid.
I would suggest writing in English – unless you know an Italian who can do it for you.
I do not think that the UK bailiffs will arrive – as of yet, the reciprocal agreement is not operative – once it is, then it is possible that measures may be taken in the UK directly against those who do not pay a fine. The same thing should also be possible in Italy in the case of Italians fined while travelling in the UK.
You might be able to appeal the fine, but it depends what it is for and the circumstances. Speeding fines would be very difficult to contest, as would fines for jumping red lights and driving down bus lanes.
It may be possible to contest some ZTL fines – if several have been issued in the space of a short time on one day, for example – but this too is complex and may not work – in which case, there is the risk that the fine may double.
The simplest thing to do is to pay – as long as you are convinced that the fine is legitimate – and EMO fines generally are – you can check out the bank account via the IBAN number. Not paying is an option some try – but non-payment could lead to problems in the future if you return to Italy.
Hope that helps a little.
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi everyone,
We received a notice of a restricted zone offense in Florence in May of 2009. It was 6 months before we received this notice, and it was not by registered mail. As a matter of fact , we just received another letter from Italy today, again not registered. So we have signed for nothing since returning May of 2009. This last letter offers us a “reduced sum” if we pay it within 60 days of this notice. Seriously! Is this not a scam. Pay quickly and we’ll give you a discount, wait 60 days and now it will be this much. Fortunately we have signed for nothing, so there is no proof of receipt, let alone proof of driving offense. I have no problem paying a traffic violation when I know I’m guilty. In this case, I have no idea what
traffic area had limited circulation, so I’ll take my chances.
U.S. citizens driving in Italy should also note that, according to Italian regulation, if a resident of a non-European Union country (e.g. the United States) violates a traffic law, the violator must pay the fine at the time the violation occurs to the police officer issuing the ticket. If the citizen does not or cannot pay the fine at the time, Italian regulation allows the police officer to confiscate the offender’s vehicle (even if the vehicle is a rental vehicle).
Alex,
Thanks for providing so much information.
Yesterday, I received a final reminder for a traffic violation in Rome for an offence on 5/08/2008 – the first registered notice was posted on 14/01/2010 ((517 days later). Today, I received another notice for a traffic violation, this time in Pisa, for an offence on 26/07/2008 (622 days later).
Do you (or any of your readers) have a template that could be used to dispute the legality of these notices?
I was just about to pay the first, but now my fines are over €200 I’m not so keen!
Thanks,
Richard
BTW, I was in a hire car (registered in Italy) for both violations. Case C-224/00 seems to be about the place of vehicle registration, as opposed to my nationality (British); does this help my case?
Oh, and the first violation was apparently for using a bus lane (struggling to find a road that leads OUT OF Rome); the second for entering a restricted traffic zone in Pisa. I’d feel differently, if I’d been caught speeding, but in both cases I feel a little hard done by. I’m sure the sign-posting was there, but it certainly wasn’t clear … to me, at least!
Thanks for the reply.
I just received a scan of the original letter. I emailed the police in Florence and they forwarded it to EMO as the infraction was in Impruneta.
EMO emailed me and explained about the fine (in perfect English) and then went on to say how the first letter was just a notice and that I would receive a registered letter from the police themselves (I live in Japan so my parents can’t really sign it for me anyway!) They say then I have 60 days to pay the police. It said I had 20 days in the first letter !!
I have replied stating that it is already well over 360 days from the offence and quoted some of the laws above. I am sure EMO can’t cancel it themselves but have asked for details of the Impruneta Police so I can consult them. I looked online but couldn’t find anything so if anyone has any contact details that would be great! At least I have bought some time.
It looks real so if I have to pay then it can’t be helped (18 years driving and my first ticket for anything…funny how these all happen in Italy isn’t it!) But if the law truly is 360 days from the offence then of course I don’t want to pay.
Is this 360 day law from the infraction something recognised by the
police or do they argue that it is 360 days from getting the details of the offenders?
Also there is very little feedback from people who have refused to pay and what follow up was taken. Would be very interested to here some results!
Thanks!
Having spent a few days in Pisa, and having hired a car from Europcar, I too received a couple of these “fines” almost a year after the event.
I researched as much as I could at the time (2006 or 2007), and found people’s opinion divided: as many folk suggested that these are a scam as those who suggest they are genuine.
2 things didn’t ring true, IMHO:
1. The English in the letter was pretty good – but then the address included the spelling GRATE BRITAIN (as if they were trying to make it sound more Italian).
2. The only way to pay was buy international bank transfer. I paid everything else in Italy by credit card: wouldn’t you think this “organisation”, if it is real, would set up such a facility?
I chose NOT to pay, and have heard no more since.
Thanks for all the advice on this blog!
To Nick G
As I’ve already said I’m not a lawyer but “just an ordinary bloke who can read & think”.
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page.
The 360 day law (Notification time limit) is from the Offence!
On my first reading of Art. 201,1 (Violations Notification) of the Italian Highway Code (a second one to make sure) it was clear to me what it meant.
Since then I found out that the Aduc (Association for the Rights of Users and Consumers) and the Italian Constitutional Court and others agreed with me (or I agreed with them).
The first “courtesy letter” is Unofficial. They could have given you 20, 30, …60 days to pay.
(You can receive more than one “courtesy letter” before receiving the Official registered letter)
Of course resolving the matter (without the need to send an appeal to the Prefect of Florence) directly with EMO would be the best way.
Yes, EMO should be able to cancel your fine because the 360 day time limit has run out. Get it in writing!
And YES, they have the “faccia tosta” (nerve) to argue that it is 360 days from getting the details of the offenders.
Maybe in your dealings with them you’ll have better luck than I had! I had a heated argument with someone at EMO about this.
If EMO won’t listen to reason then your only option (if you decide to follow the procedure) is to wait for the Official notification and appeal within 60 days.
I could give you contact details for the Impruneta Police but they have outsourced (like Florence & many other municipalities) the collection of fines to EMO.
I doubt that they speak English or that they would answer any email sent to them in English.
Don’t you have a “file number” & an “infraction number” on your notice of payment before notification? With these you can have a look at your “file” on the EMO website.
The Official Notification is sent via registered mail.
Art. 202 al.1 & art. 203 al.3 state that for a number of infractions the offender can pay a “reduced amount” within 60 days or the amount of the fine will more or less double.
On this Official fine you should also find the contact details for the Prefect & Judge of the Peace in case of appeal.
To RichardN & all
EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00 not relevant because:
– Refers only to offenders of the Italian highway code who are pulled up by the police on the spot.
- Italy has complied to judgment of EC in February 2003
Traffic violation in Rome
The registered notice was posted on 14/01/2010 (517 days later).
So you received it mid-January. More than 60 days have passed since then so it’s too late for an appeal. An appeal now would not be valid.
Traffic violation in Pisa
Notice for an offence on 26/07/2008 (622 days later).
622 days later!?! This must be some kind of record! The cheek they have!
Was it registered? If not you must wait for the Official registered notification to appeal.
You could always try to contact S.E.Pi. S.p.A (SEPi, is it not?) and get your fine cancelled. Get it in writing!
If it was registered remember the 60 day time limit to appeal!
Just one fine for entering a restricted traffic zone in Pisa?
How the hell did you get out without getting at least a second one?
Maybe an other one (or more) are on their way?
Here’s the template you requested:
APPEAL
This appeal is intended for traffic offenders who receive their:
—> Official Notification via Registered Mail over 360 days after the date of the infraction
Preamble:
Appealing to the Prefect is recommended only in cases in which you can not be wrong.
- You were notified more than 360 days after the date of the alleged offence,
- You can establish beyond the shadow of a doubt that your car, at the time of the violation, was on a traghetto headed to Sicily,
- Serious formal error(s) on the fine, ………….
I can not guarantee 100% that a Prefect might not reject a legitimate (> 360 days, within 60 days, registered mail, in Italian) appeal!
Because a Prefect might give a casual glance at an appeal request, grab a pre-printed letter and reject the appeal.
Because rejecting is easier, the appeal can still be “forwarded” to the Judge of the Peace within 30 days.
BUT this is a straightforward decision! Time limit has run out!
Prefects do reject 99% of appeals but really should NOT in such a case. Italians do appeal to the Prefect when their notification time limit has run out.
(In almost all other cases the standard procedure is to appeal to a Justice of the Peace)
This letter to the Prefect is standard, compiled from 9 appeal letters found on the web.
If a Prefect rejects such an appeal, I say: ……… Maybe I’d better not!
1 – You have received a “Notice of payment before notification” !
This so-called “courtesy letter” sent via priority mail has no legal value.
You are unofficially informed of the traffic violation perpetrated.
You can not lodge an appeal. At this stage it wouldn’t even be taken into consideration.
In the event of payment not being made within 20, 60, …. days (whatever term of payment they give you) after receipt of this Notice, the police (or the collection agency) then sends you an official notification via registered letter with proof of receipt.
2 – You have received an “Official Notification” via registered mail !
The total amount of the fine will increase by a few Euros (cost of a registered letter) compared to the Payment Notice.
You are now officially notified.
Not accepting the registered letter does not interrupt possible future proceedings.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that the offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days.
This 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the infraction.
And gets interrupted the day the Italian Postal service sends the Official Notification.
This date should appear on the Notification. (See also time stamp on the envelope)
Thus a Notification sent on the 359th day and received by the offender on the 361st is valid.
This time limit is in no way calculated from the date of the “identification” of the offender as some collection agencies would like you to believe.
This identification date is the date of receipt by the Italian authorities/Collection agencies of your personal data sent by either the car rental company, Foreign Authorities (DVLA) or other Authority.
(This “identification” notion applies only to Italian residents for whom a time limit of 150 days for the notification of the fine runs from the date of the infraction or their identification.)
WARNING !
Even if you are within your rights, the time limit has well and truly run out, you must dispute your fine and appeal to the PREFECT within 60 days from the day of receipt of the Official Notification.
Appealing to the Justice of the Peace is impracticable for a foreigner:
- Since the 1st of January 2010 you are required to pay 38 €,
- You must attend the hearing (or get someone to attend), ………….
Moreover it is not necessary in this case.
You must appeal by writing (registered letter with proof of receipt) in ITALIAN to the Prefect of the Provincia where the infraction was perpetrated.
You’ll find the address of the Prefect on the Notification.
(No need to lodge an appeal if you have already paid the fine !)
———————————————————————————————————————
Al Prefetto di …………….
Raccomandata A.R.
Oggetto: ricorso contro multa notificata oltre 360 giorni dal fatto.
Il/la sottoscritto/a ……………………, residente in…………,titolare della vettura targa (OR titolare del contratto di noleggio della vettura targa)…………..,
premesso che in data ………., ha ricevuto il verbale di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. …………, fa notare che la notifica dello stesso è avvenuta oltre 360 giorni dal fatto, estinguendo quindi l’obbligo di pagamento.
Come stabilito dall’art. 201, comma 1 del Codice della strada, nel caso di residenti all’estero, il verbale deve essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Per quanto sopra
Chiede che il provvedimento venga annullato.
Allega: fotocopia del verbale notificato.
Date…………… Signature (readable)
———————————————————————————————————————
To the Prefect of ……………
Registered letter with proof of receipt
Concerns : Appeal against fine notified over 360 days after the date of the infraction.
The undersigned………………, resident in ….…(full address)……, owner of the vehicle with registration (license) number (OR holder of the rental agreement of the vehicle with registration (license) number)…………….,
Whereas on date…………, has received the official notification of infraction of the Highway Code number………….., points out that said notofication was received over 360 days after the date of the infraction, thus extinguishing obligation to pay.
As stated in article 201,1 of the Highway Code, for the offenders residing abroad the fine must be notified within 360 days of the ascertainment, calculated unambiguously from the date of the infraction.
Given the above
Asks that the measure be nullified.
Enclosed: copy of notified fine
Date…………… Signature (readable)
On the envelope you can add : Ricorso contro multa al Codice della Strada
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the fine .
Keep for at least 5 years a copy of this letter, postal receipt, the fine and the enveloppe (in which the “Official notification” was sent ) –> Time Stamp
An appeal lodged after 60 days is not valid.
Paying the fine means admitting you’re guilty. So no sense in presenting an appeal after.
The Prefect must come to a decision within 210 days, and then has an other 150 to send you his response.
Don’t expect an answer from the Prefect! You might never get one!
Thanks Al.
Hi Alex,
I got 2 fines from the COmune di Milan Polizia Locale today from my holiday in Italy last August. Both fines sum up to about 200eurs which definitely burns a hole in my pocket.
My both offences are driving on the bus lane. Before going to Italy I have read about the restricted zones and was careful not to enter them but still ended up with 2 fines. I didn’t know that cars were restricted on bus lanes. Don’t remember seeing any signs as well.
From your post and all the comments, I also doubt the authenticity of the fines. I understand that the fines will usually come in registered post. My fines came in normal mail and were written in French (I stay in France). Does this mean I will get another official letter via registered mail? And I can only send in my appeal after I get the registered letter? The fine states that I should make payment within 20 days.
Is there anyway to make an appeal or to waiver one of the fines?
I am not an EU citizen and will be leaving France for good in about 2 months. Am really tempted to just ignore the fines.
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to reply. Seems like these italian fines have really got ten alot of people.
Just curious as to what the ramifications would be to ignoring the fines, either by informal notice from EMO NIVI (of which I have five!) or by registered mail (which of course, I still await), with respect to a non EU Citizen attempting to return to Italy. I am Canadian.
I anticipate returning to Italy within two years. We loved it that much. However, as a tourist, I do not want to be stopped at the airport and turned away, or forced to pay outstanding fines. To be fined for trying to find my way around Milan at midnight, or thereabouts, where street signs directing you in the PROPER direction are apparently scarcer than those prohibiting certain actions, is highly unfair, and contrary to all things tourist. I understand all arguments and advice regarding paying or not (I too am not a lawyer, but suffice to say I work in an equally “obvious” aspect of law…hence my questioning…) but what concerns me most is what awaits one at the border, when we return. With the Italian custom of photocopying passports at all hotels, and submitting them to the local police on a daily basis, it seems entirely possible that one might receive a knock on one’s door one evening as well. How likely are either to happen…does anyone know?
Thanks in advance, and thanks for all the other information…a lot of work, obviously!
We have also been subjected to an ‘Italian’ fine. Our fine was sent to us this week – 100 Euros. This was for a visit to Pisa in June 2008 !!!.
Reading the blogg tonight, I haven’t seen anyones fine older than ours. We are unsure whether to pay it. We may return to Pisa and hire a car again and do not want hassle when this happens.
We took the paperwork to the police station in the UK who advised us to contact the Italian embassy. We are not even sure which hire car company we used it was that long ago.
Hi Su,
Have you received the fine by regular mail?
If so you can try and contact S.E.Pi. S.p.A. (Società Entrate Pisa S.p.A.) sepi-pisa@legalmail.it and get your fine cancelled (in writing).
Explain to them kindly but forcefully that Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states very clearly that offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days.
AND that this 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the infraction.
AND absolutely NOT from the day they finally decided to inquire with the car hire company about the drivers’ contact details.
If they do not reply I wouldn’t waste too much time.
If it was registered (and if you want to follow the legal procedure) you have to appeal in Italian to the Prefect of Pisa within 60 days.
Read above my two comments: April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am and April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am.
Al
Hi all
How annoying is this all and as so many have said how many 1000s have Italians put off ever returning again thanks for so many now being scared to drive in the country.
My boyfriend and I were in Tuscny September 2009. A month or so Europcar charged us 40Euros for adminstrative costs relating to a car fine. Now (9 months later!) we have receied a latter, in English, stating we were caught speeding 20k over the allowed limit outside Florence and asked to pay 190Euros. I doubt this was the case as we were enjoying crusing and taking in the scnery and would not have speeded.
Anyway. The letter was sent standard, not signed for so they have no proof we have it.
We are both tempted to ignore it. However we will be returning to Tuscany later this year but this time driving in our car from UK. So does anyone know not having to go through Italian airport/hire a car there- would these reduce our chances of getting stopped/caught at all?
Many people in the last few years said they would take a gamle and not pay so Im amazed at the lack of response here from people who have not paid fines to see what, if anything happened to them, both in the UK and when going back to Italy?
I was fined a train fare in Germany that I never paid, they took my passport and Ive since been able to enter there without any issues. It seems the Italian methods of chasing fines with such large time having passed since it was committed would they really be totally on the ball if we happened to have our details passed to the police etc?
Hi Jessica,
Sounds as though you’ve received one of the notification of a fine notification – which arrives before the actual fine.
I know this situation is costing Italy tourists, but the number of people being fined is minimal compared to the 70 million people who visit Italy each year. Before Italy’s government does anything the situation has to become much worse. No consolation, I know.
As for people not posting about not paying, this is not a surprise. I don’t think it would be a great idea to mention this – and the Italian cops might just confiscate this site and charge me which inciting people to break the law. This would not be good.
I do not condone non-payment, but the decision is yours. Please read the other comments to get an idea as to what might happen if you do not pay and return to Italy.
You could try appealing the fine, but this is not simple unless you write Italian very well, and could lead to the fine being doubled too.
The best thing to do is to contact your local MP, MEP, as well as the AA, RAC, newspapers, etc and hope someone has a go at making signs clearer.
Best,
Alex
Hi Alex
I really appreciate your response…
I have since dug around a bit and discovered that in terms of returning to Italy, by car, we are 90% likely to be OK.
As Italy is in the Schengen Agreement it seems we might not even have to show our passport at all, unless random spot checks?
Also someone above stated Italys rule about scanning in passports at hotels.
I have since found out, while thisis the case it is sent to the State police tourism office and fines are dealt with by the city issuing the fines, town hall, not the Italian government., so they both are a seperate department. So the police arriving at your hotel to arrest you will not happen (relating to unpaid fines that is!).
Also- they only need 1 passport per room, so I will give mine, not associated with the fine, and not my partners.
I think the only thing is we could be chase by the agencies hired by Italy over HERE. However Ill wait till the recorded letter comes and also, we are moving in about 8 months anyway, cancelling the card we booked the hire car on etc- so I think given this it might be quite hard to chase ous, beyond 8 months.
I just find it so appalling that they can treat people in this way that I want to make a stand!
Heres hoping….
I just got 2 fines in dated from 14 June 2008!
Thanks for the appeal template, Sending it off today to them
With apologies to Sean Connery “Fuori di qui si diego bastardi”
Hi Alex
Can you advise please?
On 4th April 2009 I went to Pisa with my family picked up the reserved car from Hertz at the airport, following day (it was Saturday) we went to Florence parked the car in an underground car park, and handed the key to the car park attendant and after walking around the city center all day, I picked the car up drove back to Pisa and next day back to London. Few months later Hertz charged my credit card account (about 30 Euro) for going through congestion area in Florence in the morning and afternoon. I notified my credit card company about and said I know nothing about this. Hertz refunded money soon after BUT then came a letter from Florence Municipal ….. about the same violation. I did say I did not have the car keys at the time etc. Now the case is going through the appeal. IF the worse happens and I lose the appeal, can I just forget about it and since they asked for 99 Euro for each violation and they said it would be doubled if I lose the appeal. I have no intention of going back Italy again.
Thanks
Yousef
Hi Yousef,
The time of the Florence ‘offence’ was while you were walking around the city – is what I think I’ve understood.
In which case, you were not in the car, which, technically, should not have been moving. Now, I have no idea, but it sounds a little as though the car park attendant or someone else, took your hire car out and about while you were walking around Florence. It sounds strange, but it is possible. Do you have any receipt for the car park? If so, I’d write back to the Florence authorities and explain the situation. I would imagine that in the circumstances they would cancel the fine. Writing a letter, in English, which explains the situation should work – mention the name of the car park too (this will be on a receipt – if you have one).
There is a risk that they will double the fine, but if you have a receipt with a time on it, you should be OK. Nothing is guaranteed though.
If you have no receipt, then what you say about leaving your keys with someone cannot be easily proved, in which case the fine could double.
With regard to two letters about the same violation, are you sure they refer to the same violation or to two different violations? This happens – check the reference numbers and see if they are different.
Hope this helps – but note I am not a lawyer.
Best of luck,
Alex
Thank you Alex,
I did not keep the receipt and I guess I have to expect the worse (ie paying double) even though I explained everything in English.
Thanks again
Yousef
Hi there! I was wondering about bus fines in rome? Two of us got a fine of 50euro each which now is 100 euros each, as we didn’t have enough cash on us to pay the fine on the spot. we inadvertently got on a bus without a ticket. one of us is a eu citizen (germany) living permanently in the us, the other is a us citizen. The officer was rude, barely spoke english to explain anything. I had asked him for a english copy of what we were signing..he said “no important”…
Hi Daniela,
Sorry to hear you got caught. It’s not always clear how Italy’s buses work to foreigners, I know.
Before paying up, you could try writing an apologetic letter, in English, to the bus company – they might let you off, but so many people try to work the system, I doubt whether they will listen to you. You never know.
At the end of the day though, a quick trip around the internet would have helped you understand how Rome’s buses etc work – and this would have saved you €100 each.
Good luck,
Alex
Hi Alex,
I have been reading your blog with interest since the 2 traffic infringements came through my letterbox this morning.
I visited Florence on the 23rd Apr 09 in a hire car rented from Europecar, and due to a lost wallet issue had to drive into central Florence chasing after a taxi.
Both traffic offences were committed within 10 minutes of each other on the 29th Apr 09.
On the EMO website there is a letter which I believe was from the hire car dated the 16th Sep 09 saying I had hired the car, and a stamp saying that they received this on the 19th Sep 09 (146 days after the offence)
The Notice of Payment Before the Notification was issued on the 28th May 2010, over a year after the original offences.
From reading above can you clarify how the system works with regards to whether this is now too old for them to persue.
Is it correct they have 150 days to find out who hired the car and and then a further 360 days to issue the notice?
Or is the 360 day rule for foreign nationals for the whole process?
I am a bit confused…
Incidently the 2 fines are for 120 euors each
Many thasnks, Tim
Tim,
“Is it correct they have 150 days to find out who hired the car and and then a further 360 days to issue the notice?
No, it’s not correct!
To be accurate what EMO says on their website (FAQ n°17 http://www.emo.nivi.it/Faq.aspx) is that they have 360 days “from the date of receipt of the personal data sent by the car rental company”.
Absolutely no time limit to find out who hired the car!
Which means that they can decide to identify the offender whenever it suits them!
Why not after 4, 8, 17, ………….months?
What is important is that Art. 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states (unambiguously) that offenders residing abroad must be notified (officially) within 360 days, calculated from the DATE of the infraction.
Whether you were driving your own car or a rented car is not relevant!
The Notice of Payment Before the Notification you have received is Unofficial.
You can try and contact EMO and get your fine cancelled (in writing).
If and when you receive the Official Notification via registered mail you must dispute your fine and appeal in Italian to the PREFECT within 60 days.
You’ll find a template in my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Please read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comments on April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am and May 8, 2010 at 9:35 pm.
Al
I emailed the email address supplied with the fine earlier today, and have just received the response, which I thought you might be interested to see:
Dear Sir,
The centre of Pisa is a limited area, in order to access this area you
must have a special authorization.
All the cars that enter without this authorization are fined because many
streets of the centre have got a camera that makes a photo of the plate of
the car.
These streets are marked by international road signs.
Remember that sings are the same in all the country of EUROPE.
In attachment a copy of the photo.
According to the Italian Road Traffic Code it’s possible to notify the
fine to the lessee of the car within 360 days from the date on which the
Police Office receive your name and address from your Rental.
We are sorry but we aren’t able to delete your fine.
The document that you’ve received is a legal act produced by a police
officer, sent according to the Italian Highwaycode and within the terms
permitted.
We’re sorry but it’s impossible to pay it by credit card or online.
You can pay by bank transfer:
• the name and the address of our bank are :
CASSA DI RISPARMIO LUCCA PISA LIVORNO
AGENZIA 1 – CORSO ITALIA 4 -56125 PISA
• Account number is 77
• the name and the address of the recipient are:
SEPI SPA COMUNE DI PISA SANZIONI AMMINISTRATIVE
PIAZZA DEI FACCHINI 16, 56125 PISA
• INTERNATIONAL COORDINATES:
- IBAN IT64G0620014021000000000077
- BIC (swift code): BPALIT3LXXX
Please write on the reason of the payment the number of the form of the
fine, so we will be able to identify the payment.
It’s the surest and quickest way.
If you have problems you can send a cheque payable to SEPI SPA COMUNE DI
PISA SANZIONI AMMINISTRATIVE and you must send it to Polizia Municipale -
Piazza dei Facchini 16 56125 Pisa Italy(please send in attachment a copy
of your fine).
If you want try to cancel the fine you can submit an appeal, in Italian
language, to one of the following authorities within 60 days from the date
on which you received the fine:
* Prefect of Pisa, writing to “Piazza G. Mazzini, 56125 Pisa (italy)
* Justice of Peace of Pisa, writing to “via Palestro 39, 56125 Pisa (italy)
Your appeal must be sent with registered mail.
At your disposal for further information
Best Regards
On Mar, 1 Giugno 2010 11:43 am, felix middleton wrote:
>
> Hello
>
>
> My name is Felix Middleton and I have received a letter from you
> regarding offense Nr. of form: 1362520. This relates to a fine of 119
> euros on April 21st 2009 in Pisa.
>
> Having spoken to you, you have told me that you have 360 days to inform
> me of the fine, from the time that you receive notification from Hertz,
> the hire company I used to hire the car reg DV829ML.
>
> From what I have read under European law if you are a European Union
> resident and you have received a fine more than 210 days after an
> offense, then a fine is not enforceable. I have been advised to quote
> case no C-224/00:
>
> Failure by a Member State to fulfil its obligations – Article 6 of the EC
> Treaty (now, after amendment, Article 12 EC) – Difference in treatment of
> persons contravening the highway code according to the place of
> registration of their vehicle – Proportionality.
>
> I have been advised to speak to my lawyer and if necessary contact my MEP
> to discuss this further due to the time that has elapsed since the time
> of the offence.
>
> Please do not hesitate to contact me at this email address.
>
>
> I look forward to hearing from you,
>
>
> Felix Middleton
>
Felix,
EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00 not relevant because:
– Refers only to offenders of the Italian highway code who are pulled up by the police on the spot.
- Italy has complied to judgment of EC in February 2003
BUT they’re misinforming you about the 360 day time limit!
Art. 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states (unambiguously) that offenders residing abroad must be notified (officially) within 360 days, calculated from the DATE of the infraction.
Please read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comments on April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am, May 8, 2010 at 9:35 pm and June 2, 2010 at 2:58 am.
Al
Alex,
I too received two notices by post today (02/06/10) from Pisa regarding the restricted traffic zone which occurred on 17/05/2009. I had hired a car from Hertz. They arrived in separate envelopes with a yellow detachable card on the rear of the envelope with an addressee of SEPI Service SRL. The postmark on the envelopes is 22/05/2010. I did not sign for these letters as they were put through the letter box. The letter head is Municipality of Pisa. Working on the basis that the postmark is 22/05/2010, then that is more than a year from the offence when it was posted!
Fair enough if I have violated traffic rules and I would expect to pay, just like the London Congestion Zone.
However, just to clarify a few points:-
1) Are the detachable yellow cards the system of Registered Mail which should be detached and returned by the Royal Mail back to SEPI? As stated, if they are, I have not signed anything so technically I have not been officially notified (as far as proof goes).
2) Working on the dates, surely I am over the 360 day limit now?
3) If the yellow cars are not the system of Registered Mail, will something else arrive?
Like many others on here, I am slightly annoyed at the time delay and it has certainly tarnished my memories of what was a good holiday.
Alastair,
1) Yes, I believe you have received two “Official Notifications” via registered mail with proof of receipt!
Is it written “A.R.” on the front of the card?
A.R. means “Avviso di ricevimento” –> “Proof of receipt”.
Do the detachable yellow cards look like this? http://www.poste.it/postali/stampati/avviso_ricevimento_bilingue.shtml
Odd that your postman made such a blunder!
In such a case, if you were an Italian resident, you’d receive an official note informing you that you can collect the registered mail at the post office.
If, for any reason you don’t pick it up (you’re on a four month holiday improving your sun tan on Copacabana beach or you’re refusing to accept the registered mail), you then receive a second official note.
After ten days you’re considered to be legally notified.
I don’t know how things work with “international registered mail” but the fact of the matter is that your postman can’t even send the detachable yellow cards back to SEPI in Pisa whether you’ve signed for them or not!
2) Yes, you’re over the 360 day time limit!
You’re right. The relevant date is 22/05/2010, the day the two notifications were sent from Italy. Furthermore 360 days is not 365 days (a year) even if it’s of no consequence for you, the two infractions having occurred on 17/05/2009.
3) Someday you’ll probably receive the two notifications (via registered mail) again.
There are no definite rules about this!
Also read my comment on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am.
Al
Alex,
The two detachable yellow cards that I have in my possesion are exactly like the ones on your link above. Furthermore, I checked with my local postie who confirmed I had not signed for anything official today.
I am grateful that you confirm I am over the 360 day time limit and as far as I am now concerned, they can poke it. Their inefficiency is not my problem.
I am a police officer in the UK. If I want to know a driver’s details, even of a hire car, it does not take me over a year to find out who was driving, even with the Data Protection Act. Simply fill out a form, get an inspector to sign it and send it to the relevant hire company. All details furnished pretty quickly.
I shall now await the the next “summons” from Pisa and see what happens. In any case, I am not paying it now in principle – it may make the Italians clean up their act a little and be more efficient!
Oh, and just an additional little snippet of info – my two letters are dated 14/05/2010 so that is still outside the 360 day limit. Took them eight days to post them!
Alastair,
My name is Al, not Alex.
(Please READ “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comment on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am).
I’m responsible for the reply I gave you, especially if for some reason or other, now or at a later date, you would be displeased with the response.
Eight days between the date on the notifications and the date on the envelopes!?!
Should be the same dates. That’s why one must always keep the enveloppe for the postmark.
But Italian bureaucracy is what it is! As you say, they could be more efficient.
And yes, you’re quite right about the date 14/05/2010 on the notifications being outside the 360 day time limit.
Al (not Alex Roe)
P.S./ By the way I’m not a lawyer, just someone who speaks Italian and spent a “little” time on the web exploring this issue.
A British postman can be unreliable too!
Al,
Apologies for getting your names mixed up – especially as I am also called Al as well!
If 360 days is the law, it’s the law – it’s as simple as that. 360 days is more than ample time to identify a driver (foreign or not) and send out paperwork in time. As you know, in the UK we have set times to send out NIP’s (Notices of Intended Prosecution), speeding tiickets and even summary offences. If we stray out of those times, then it’s our hard luck.
Maybe I am just being cynical (you tend to be when you are a police officer), but is this a case of milking the tourist who does not quite understand Italian law and making them a soft target?! I wonder….hmmmmmm.
Great blog by the way
NEED IMMEDIATE HELP!!!!
Wow, this blog is exactly what I was looking for…… I am in a situation and need someone, ANYONE’s help…….
I was in Italy on a 2 week trip last March (March 2009). While in Rome for 4 days, a friend of mine and I decided to rent vespas. I did not have any issues with the polizia while riding. I obeyed all the traffic laws as best I could and was only stopped once for riding on a street near the Colosseum on Sunday (the officer let me go with no problem). This year, 2010, I returned from a vacation in April (the first week of April) to a heap of mail that had FOUR letters in there from the Polizia Municipale Roma. Apparently I had violated four traffic laws!!!!! I had no idea that I was doing anything wrong. On the papers there was a website with an access code and password. I logged in and there were pictures of my friend and I riding the vespas!!!!!
Needless to say, the fines were outrageous. I believe each offense was 100 Euro. I am not a poor man, but that is almost $500!!! My friend and I both agreed that we were not going to pay and just let the issue fade away. Well, I have received TWO notices from the US Post Office as of today requesting that I sign for a certified letter from the Polizia Municipale Roma. I have no been able to make it over to the post office to pick it up, but I will tomorrow.
Here is the situation…..I do NOT want to pay these fines as I am not a citizen of Italy and do not plan on visiting or moving there anytime soon. Of course I loved it, but I don’t see any travel plans being put together to return. Ideally I would like to resolve the issue without having to pay by any means necessary. If that means I have to contact them, so be it. I’ll call, write a letter, email, whatever I have to do. I just dont want to pay the stupid fine.
I am beggining to get worried that this can be an international issue? Can the Italian government issue a warrant for my arrest and the US authorities follow through with arresting me??????
SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ASAP!!!!!
Hi Brandon,
This is Alex, not, Al – who very kindly helps out here. Al speaks much better Italian than I, and has carried out lots of research into the fining of foreign motorists issue. Al is foreign too.
Now, getting fined for scooting around Rome on a Vespa is not a great end to a great Roman holiday, alas.
Technically, annoying though it is, you should pay up. The cameras merciless. You don’t say which traffic laws you have been accused of breaking. There is a small chance that an appeal may reduce the amount of the fines.
I don’t imagine whoever rented you the scooter warned about Roman restricted traffic zones – and even if they did, you’d probably have seen many other scooters doing just the same as you, I’ll willing to bet.
Coughing up is the best option probably – appeals against the electronic eyes are difficult. If you do not pay, it is unlikely that you will find an Italian cop or the FBI on your doorstep brandishing an international arrest warrant. Unless they wanted to make an example of you, which probably would damage Italy’s image as a tourist destination massively. And committing a few offences on a Vespa in Rome hardly puts you into the same league as an international drug dealer. Then there would be the huge costs involved – all just to collect several hundred Euros.
As I have pointed out above many times in my replies, the only potential problem which could arise would be someone catching up with you if you come to Italy again in the next 5 years. I have not heard of this happening, but that does not mean it has not.
Not paying is an option, but the decision is yours. I cannot and will not condone non-payment for reasons given at the start of this article some 550 comments above.
What you can do is tell anyone you know, and even those you don’t, that they have to be careful when they come to Italy – and the romantic trip around Rome on a Vespa can and up leaving one with a bad after taste, as you have unfortunately discovered.
For the record, this is the first case of Vespa fines I have heard since writing this way back in September 2006.
Best regards,
Alex (not Al!)
PS ‘Alex’, me, is the guy who runs BlogfromItaly.com – ‘Al’ helps out on the fine front – Thank you Al!.
Brandon,
Those reckless tourists wandering aimlessly around Rome on their vespas!
Rome will send two Carabinieri in full uniform to flush you out of your hiding place!
And to think that the Italian taxpayer will have to suffer the consequences for your casualness!
From what I understand:
- The four traffic violations took place in March 2009,
- In March-April 2010 you received the “unofficial” fines sent via “normal mail”,
- The official notifications (you’re about to sign for) were probably sent from Rome at the end of May.
March 2009 –> May 2010 ==> The 360 day notification time limit has run out.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that the offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days.
This 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the infraction.
If you’re really ready to write a letter (and if you want to follow the legal procedure) you have to appeal in Italian to the Prefect of Rome within 60 days from the date of receipt of the official notifications.
You’ll find the address of the Prefect on the Notification.
An appeal template is included in my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Read carefully “Summary of How to Deal with Fines received while in Italy” & “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comment on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am.
Al (not Alex)
Great work guys and praise for all your efforts.
Point of clarification to Al’s 3 June 2010 ,12.53 pm posting regarding the 365 day ruling . Is this from the day of the offence to the date on the envelope of the second registered letter plus 10 days as on 4 months holiday and no one home?
Reading this forum I am wondering why some Euro employed Lawyer/ MEP has not taken the initiative and clarified the cross border legality and correct enforcement procedures as most people seem to feel threatened and take the easy route and cough up rather than receive the dreaded kiss. How can a motoring infringement be classified as a “Criminal” offence in one EU member state and not in the other. Its nonsensical. and will the British officials arrest and shackle its citizens for extradition to Italy as a criminal for incarceration and punished with pasta and spaghetti.
I have just got back here from NZ and was touring Italy last summer with my daughter who hired the vehicle. I was a named driver and we went separate ways where I took the car.
Just learned she has had several credit card hits and fines are coming in but not the registered ones. Appears she has been judged guilty of a criminal offence without cause simply by signing the agreement which is totally unfair as I was the vehicle user. She feels threatened and just wants to pay up in fear of the consequences to her career
It appears their coffers are lined by basic intimidation of foreigners and they are taking advantage of the fact that people are deterred from making an appeal due to an alien, complex and geographically distant judicial system which we should not be subjected to.
I am a international Nomad without a credit card or care and am curious of how best to play this and suggest my daughter put me entirely in the blame loop if that can be done. Any ideas?
Paul,
I wouldn’t feel « threatened » (for my career) for a few traffic violations in Italy.
You probably drove through a ZTL (limited traffic area) on more than one occasion..
The 360 day (NOT 365) Violations Notification time limit is from the day of the offence to the date on the envelope of the Official fine sent via registered mail.
Usually people sign for their registered mail.
The “+10 days from the second “postal notice” warning you that a registered letter is waiting for you at the post office” was just my explanation to Alastair (who was left with the detachable cards to be sent back to Italy) of how an Italian resident is considered to be officially notified even if he can’t be found (no one home) or refuses to sign the registered fine. For foreign residents……
“Judged guilty of a Criminal Offence” ? For a traffic violation? Likely a ZTL infringement?
Is there more to this than just a pecuniary sanction???
Your daughter is receiving the fines because she was the holder of the rental agreement. As such (Art.196 Italian Highway Code), I think she’s also responsible for paying the fines. So, putting the blame on you would be of no use.
Should you choose to pay it’s of no consequence whether the fines are in your name or your daughter’s name, unless the violation is so serious that it warrants, for instance, the loss of your driving license for six months in Italy. In such a case you shouldn’t drive a car in … Italy.
If need be you can always inform the police that you were the one driving the car.
You do not have to convince me about the practical impossibility of presenting an appeal!
That’s also why, ……………….
I would wait for the registered fines. Read my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Al (not Alex)
I to have had two recorded letters with the A.R cards on (I still have them) claiming that I was driving in an unauthorized area in Florence, both fines are for 109euro and are 13 mins apart in different roads.
We where going back to Italy this year but this has put me off, so they loose 2000 odd euros that I would of spent, the fine which I would not pay anyway as the signs and road markings are not in English and the World Cup
Bob..
PS: are you saying that I should receive another recorded delivery and that has to be within the 360 days?
If you still have the detachable yellow (A.R.) cards, you have not signed for the registered fines and EMO can’t prove that you’ve been officially informed.
I would think that you’ll probably receive them again ( no guarantee
) and they must come within the 360 days.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that the offenders residing abroad must be (“officially”) notified within 360 days from the date of the infraction.
Remember that even if they come after 360 days you still have to dispute them and appeal to the Prefect.
Al (not Alex)
I have had a speeding ticket from 2009 in Tuscany. The time on the notice is different by 7 minutes to the time on the photograph – does this constitute enough for a successful appeal or should I just tell?? My 360 day limit will be up in a few days so in any event I have a little bit of time before either telling EMO or appealing.
Jeff,
In my view, I wouldn’t rely on the slight discrepancy between the time on the notice and the time on the photograph.
It does not “constitute enough” to dispute the fine, the speeding violation has well and truly been committed.
From what I understand you’ve just received the “unofficial” notice of payment.
If the 360 day notification time limit will really be up shortly I would wait for the official registered fine and ………… try & convince EMO that their theory about having 360 days to notify from the date of your “identification” is …….. total rubbish!
If you happen to be successful, please, do tell us!
Otherwise appeal to the Prefect within 60 days from the day of receipt of the official Notification.
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
But it seems to me you’ve already read Alex’s post on “Speeding, and ….” carefully.
Al (not Alex)
Thank you for your helpful comments. I am not sure if the piece of paper I got is the real thing or the informal notice that you refer to. I is headed “violation of the Highway Code” and “Report” and says that I have 60 days from receiving the violation report or notification to appeal etc. Do they need to have the “avviso di ricevimento” for service of the notice to be valid ?
Jeff,
It seems to me that you have received the Official Notification (violation of the Highway Code notice), the informal notice is headed “ Notice of payment before notification”.
The official fine must mention that you can appeal to the Prefect of … or the Judge of the Peace of … within 60 days …
It also usually states “in case of non-payment after 60 days, the liable amount will increase to …”
To be valid it must have been sent as a registered letter with proof of receipt (“avviso di ricevimento”) and within 360 days (not 365) from the date of the infraction.
Your postman should have asked you to sign for it or left a note asking you to pick it up at the post office.
Read comment on June 3, 2010 at 12:53 am.
Al (not Alex)
I have just this morning (28/6/2010) received a letter from Europcar with a traffic violation dated 19/10/2007. On checking my credit card statement the money has already been deducted. Are they allowed to do this so long after the alleged
violation?
Ian P
Ian,
The money deducted is almost certainly an “administration fee” (around 18 to 55€ per fine) following a request from the Italian authorities to Europcar to obtain the personal data of the car renter who committed the traffic violation.
When you signed the rental contract in 2007 you agreed to pay for the admin charge.
You’ll probably receive over the next few weeks (months) the actual fine.
Furthermore a fine for a 28-month-old traffic violation is absolutely not valid.
Art. 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days, calculated from the date of the infraction.
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comment on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am.
I would contest my credit card charge and get my money back because the fine (for an alleged violation) is not legally valid, thus the associated admin fee must therefore be equally invalid.
Europcar should ask the Italian Authorities (or the collection agencies) to be refunded for wasting their time with invalid fines!
These collection agencies (acting on behalf of the municipal police) keep on sending these invalid fines (over 360 days) because they expect the foreign offenders (“suckers”) to pay blindly.
After all there’s a 35% commission at stake here!
Al (not Alex)
Hey Al and Alex! This blog has been a big help in researching my numerous traffic fines from Florence. I was studying there (as a US resident) in the spring of 2009. While i was there my friends and I rented Vespas on numerous occasions. Anyway, long story short, i have received over 25 tickets for driving on the street where i lived, turns out it was a bus lane only and I never saw the sign. I understand the 360 day rule and ti turns out that only 5 of the 25+ tickets were sent within that 360 day period….the rest came over 400 days later. I have payed the ones that came in time….now, do i still need to appeal the additional tickets or do i just do nothing (since there were over 360 days)? Has anyone done this? Appealed a ticket over 360? Has it been successful? Will this appeal renew the fine and therefore negate the 360 day rule?
Hey Bryan,
Over 25 tickets! No half measures for you (and your friends)!
READ above my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
You’ll find most answers to your questions!
I assume that:
1 – The 20+ tickets remaining were really sent over 360 days after the date of the infraction,
2 – These 20+ tickets are all Official Notifications sent by registered mail,
3 – You’re still in time (60 days or less from the day(s) of receipt of these official 20+ tickets) to appeal.
YES! If you want to follow the legal procedure you absolutely have to appeal in Italian to the Prefect of Florence within those 60 DAYS. (Not a day after)
Those tickets (over 360 days) are perfectly valid unless you appeal!
A Prefect in his right mind can only do one thing, and that is to accept such a legitimate appeal (> 360 days, within 60 days, registered mail with proof of receipt, in Italian)
If, by any chance, he should reject your appeal, then …(fill in the gap)…him!
Now, to your last question:
1 – If you loose an appeal to a Prefect the fine roughly doubles. If you don’t pay or don’t appeal, the fine will double anyway.
2 – Negate the 360 day rule??? How???
The prescription time limit is 5 years. This means that the Italian authorities have five years to collect fines from the date of the infraction.
This time limit can be interrupted by any official act relevant to the fine!
BUT the police must send (to non-Italian residents) the fine (Official notification via registered mail) within 360 days (notification time limit) from the date of the infraction!
If they don’t, you can appeal.
So now the 5 year prescription time limit runs from the day they sent you the official fine (official act relevant to the fine).
If you appeal the 5 years will run from the day of receipt of your appeal……….
If I were you I would send one letter of appeal (see appeal template):
Modifications (plural for 20+ tickets!) in caps:
“Il sottoscritto”
“Oggetto: ricorso contro multE notificatE”
“titolare deI contrattI di noleggio deGLI SCOOTER targHE 1, 2, 3, ….”
“premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE, …, ha ricevuto I verbalI di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. N° 1ST FINE, N° 2ND FINE, …, fa notare che lE notificHE deGLI stessI SONO avvenutE oltre 360 giorni daI fattI, …….”
“Chiede che I provvedimentI vengaNO annullatI”
“Allega: fotocopiE deI verbalI notificatI”
Do not forget to enclose readable copies of the fines.
If you still have questions, ………
Al (not Alex)
I haven’t gotten yet, but expect to get a couple of fines for entering the ZTL of Rome Center and Trastavere. I kind of knew about the ones in FLORENCE and that they were mostly in day time hours. I had no idea about the ones in Rome.
After reading up here about handicap exceptions, I am curious if this applies to US citizens. My wife does have a registered handicap blue sticker here in the US.
Does a copy of this suffice for the fines to be removed?
I saw on the EMO site that you could provide proof of the handicap sticker, but wasn’t clear if that was only for an Italian handicaped sticker?
Does the handicapped sticker method work for US citizens?
I haven’t received yet, but expect to recieve two from Rome.
My wife does have a legitimate handicap and sticker here in US?
Hi Michael,
As I understand the situation regarding handicapped stickers, your nationality should not matter. Send EMO a copy of the sticker.
In your case, I suspect EMO will take steps to have the fines annulled.
Best of luck,
Alex
Hi. This is a very informative site. I have a similar problem. Rented a car with Europcar in December 2007 while in Italy. I got fined in Florence for driving in the inner city and paid “administration fees” automatically deducted from my credit card.
Today, 13 July 2010, I received a letter from the EMO that I must pay the fines within 20 days. Since it has been over 2 and a half years since the incident, my question is “should I just ignore it?”
PS. I am a Thai citizen and do not live in the EU.
Your advice is greatly appreciated!
Nile,
EMO purposely misleads foreign tourists (FAQ n°17 http://www.emo.nivi.it/Faq.aspx) when they claim shamelessly that they have 360 days from the date of their identification to notify the fine.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states very clearly that this 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic violation.
They give you 20 days to pay, this means that you received the informal notice (Notice of payment before notification) and that you can’t lodge an appeal at this stage.
I would write to EMO (infoemo-en@nivi.it) and ask them when I was “identified”.
(When were the “admin fees” deducted from your credit card?)
If the identification was made before July 2009 (over 360 days before the date on the notice) the fines are not valid even by their own (wrong) standards.
If so, EMO will cancel your fines.
If not, you can try and explain to them forcefully that the 360 day notification time limit doesn’t run from the day they finally decided to inquire with the car hire company about the drivers’ contact details. I wouldn’t be too optimistic, they’re pigheaded!
You can also appeal to the Prefect within 60 days from the day of receipt of the official(s) Notification(s).
READ “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and comments on April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am and June 28, 2010 at 9:51 pm.
At any rate, make sure…. to give EMO your best regards from…… beautiful Thailand (or wherever you live)!
Al (not Alex)
Appreciate the information. On May 18, 2009 I left a Villa I had stayed at in the Tuscany countryside and went to Florence to the hotel I was staying at in the historic district. I gave the hotel car tag information, dropped off the family and drove a short distance to return the rental car. Had some difficulty finding the rental garage but finally found it and returned the car. Today July 20, 2010, 14 months later, I received two separate Notice of Payment Before the Notification for “The vehicle circulated in limited traffic area without authoriztion” each notice seeking 133.03 euros. Reading through this site it appears that this is beyond the 365 day limit. Will I need to wait for the official registered notice and then do something?
JP,
The ZTL (Limited Traffic area) policy in Florence is the following:
“Tourists in cars who need to travel within the ZTL to reach their accommodation facilities or a garage can obtain a temporary access permit […] In order to obtain this permit, the number plate of the car concerned should be given to the relevant hotel […]
This permit will be issued for a maximum of two hours for baggage transport purposes and, therefore, only on the arrival and departure dates […] For the rest of their stay, clients should park their car outside the ZTL, in a commercial garage or the hotel’s own private garage.”
http://en.comune.firenze.it/transport/ztl.htm
It seems that, in your case, the hotel didn’t undertake to forward your license tag number to the appropriate office.
Contact your hotel via email, get proof that on May 18, 2009 you were checking into the hotel and send the information to EMO (infoemo-en@nivi.it).
EMO should then cancel your fines received within the time allowed (2 hours) on your arrival date.
If this “informal appeal” doesn’t work you could always try and explain to EMO that the 360 (not 365) day notification time limit runs from the day of the traffic violation. But, as I’ve already said, they’re stubborn and rather prefer to mislead foreign tourists on this matter.
Or, as a last resort, wait for the official registered notice and appeal to the Prefect of Florence.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al
I have been following this blog since I first got my “notice of payment before the notification” last month, for a driving-in-a-limited-zone infraction in Rome. The ‘offence’ took place on 23rd January 2009 and the official notification finally arrived last week, on the 27th July 2010.
The only other relevent date is that Europcar informed me that they had received notification from the police on 13th July 2009.
So, having read your blog and studied the Italian highway code, I understand that the 360 day rule should run from the date of the offence, not when the police finally get around to processing your details, so in theory I should be ok.
The ‘notification of violation’ says that I have 60 days either to appeal to the Prefect of Rome, OR “directly” to the Justice of the Peace of Rome. So, three questions:
1) Which is best, the Prefect or the JP?
2) Does anyone have any evidence that either of these two offices has any more integrity/efficiency/intelligence than the police force or the EMO? Are they likely to read the appeal at all? If they don’t, then apparently the fine will at least double, and they will add “proceedings fees” of an undisclosed amount!
3) When does THEIR definition of the 360 day limit (ie from when they get your driver details) end – the date they process your notification, or the date you sign for your letter. And when does it begin?
I ask because if Europcar invoiced me from my ‘admin fee’ on the 13/7/09 and I received my notification on 27/7/10, so clearly more than 360 days has passed even between these dates. But will the police claim simply that they received my details a week after Europcar processed the invoice, then sent their notification (actually dated 15/7/10) two weeks before I received it, to be within their 360 days?
I am disgusted at the thought that I should have to pay this fine. It is unfair, it is illegal and it has kept me away from Italy, where I used to be a regular visitor, for the last year an a half. I have no intention to visit Italy again, and certainly not to rent a car, if I can help it.
But equally, I’m sure that the forces that exist to enforce this fine against me are more powerful than any that might help me fight it. I even wrote to 2 different MEPs, and what do they say? Well, one of their underlings writes back to you with the standard line quoted by the EMO.. So should I just pay and avoid increasing fines?
Your in anger and perplexity
dom
Hi Dominic,
This is Al, not Alex (and his blog).
–> Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page.
Please read also my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment and all other comments since then.
You got that right! –> “not when the police … finally … get around to processing your details”.
1) The Prefect!
For the Justice of the Peace since January 1, 2010 you are required to pay 38 € beforehand, …….
2) “integrity/efficiency/intelligence” ?
Would you be so kind as to tell me what do those words mean in this context?
Thanks for the good laugh!
The Prefect of Rome should read your appeal and cancel the fine because clearly the 360 day time limit from the date of the offence has run out.
3) According to THEIR (absolutely wrong) definition:
From the date of receipt of your driver details sent by the car rental company to the date they send you the official notification, the day they give it to the post office.
So yes, good question!
Europcar admin fee –> 13/7/09
But when did the police, EMO receive your driver details?
Europcar could have processed the invoice a week, … after sending your details?
Notification dated 15/7/10,
But more importantly what is the postmark date on the envelope? Is it the same?
This is too close for comfort! Remember that 360 days is NOT one year (365 days)!
I would:
1) Call or send an email to EMO to determine on which date you were identified.
I know for a fact that EMO has already cancelled fines which were sent over 360 days after identification.
2) This is optional!
Tell EMO that you’re “outraged” that an agency mandated by official Authorities should lie so flagrantly to foreign tourists about the 360 day rule!
That they should cancel the fine without further ado! ……………
3) Appeal to the Prefect of Rome WITHIN 60 days of reception of the official notification (see template).
Finally I would never ever pay this invalid fine.
Ultimately I would appeal to the Prefect.
Either he follows the law and cancels the fine or …………. for all I care!
Let us know and if you have more questions….
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al (not Alex)
Thanks for the advice. I have written to EMO, but on the basis of what others have said, I doubt whether they will do anything other than repeat the “360 days from identification of driver” line, and tell me to write to the prefect… if they bother to reply at all.
I have actually phoned the British embassy in Rome and 2 local MEPs (as I said earlier) and they all seem to just blindly buy this lie. In other words, couldn’t care less!
The real question I suppose is, has anybody actually sent anything like the letter template usefully provided earlier in this blog to the prefect and got their fine cancelled? If there were people on this blog queuing up to say that they had got their fines overturned in this way, then I would do it without thinking… As it is, I’m understandably worried that the prefect might not give a monkeys about such claims, however justified, and simply double the fine!
Hi again Alex.
BBC’s Radio 4′s “You & Yours” consumers’ programme broadcast another piece on ZTL fines today, though it didn’t add much to its previous piece (see my 19 March post above) nor the comments in this thread.
You can listen at http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0094hjv, or if that doesn’t work, try http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00t3td5 and click the “Chapter 3″ button.
Keep up the good work!
Hi Pablo,
Thanks for coming back to let us know about the BBC “You & Yours” consumers’ programme. At the end of the day though, there does not seem to be too much which can be done.
If Italy starts sending out the notifications more quickly, then it will become very difficult to challenge these fines. Still, if someone has been caught speeding, he or she should really pay up.
The ZTLs are another matter, as they are not always clearly signposted. However, as you may have noted from Al’s (Al is not me, I’m ‘Alex’) useful comments and observations, appealing these fines is not at all easy.
I hope that one day GPS makers will add ZTL warnings so that people can know they are about to enter one of these zones, but this would mean collaborating with Italian local authorities who a) are strapped for cash b) make money from these fines c) are not always that well organised. a) and b) are connected
As you can see, there does not seem to be much of a solution at the moment. We can only hope that some well-heeled person gets caught and has the resources and will to take this through all of Italy’s courts and to the ECHR, but I doubt really anyone will bother for the sake of what is generally not much more than a few hundred Euros. I know this is a significant sum for many, but would not be for the kind of person who has the weight to take this to court.
One other possibility is that a motoring organisation takes this on board – as such a body will have the finances to push this through the courts. But, as every lawyer (which I’m not) knows, courts can be fickle and it is not easy to know what the outcome of a case will be, unless everything is very clear cut.
I almost forgot to add that Italy’s courts are very slow, so even if someone kicked a case off tomorrow, it might be 10+ years or so before a definitive result is achieved
Hope springs eternal as they say, so you never know.
Kind regards,
Alex (not Al!)
PS Many thanks to Al for all his input
Dominic,
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) is crystal clear for the Judges of the Italian Constitutional Court (the highest judicial body), the lawyers at ADUC (Association for the Rights of Users and Consumers), the Municipality of Arezzo in its “Decision” to outsource the collection of foreign drivers fines to EMO, …
It’s child’s play to understand it if you speak a little Italian and you’re not in bad faith.
I can tell you that the French Consulates in Rome and Florence do not buy this despicable lie and inform correctly French traffic offenders.
As I’ve already said Italians do appeal to the Prefect when their notification time limit has run out.
It’s even easier in the case of foreign traffic offenders because there’s no “identification notion” to eventually meddle things up.
Either you’ve been notified over 360 days after the date of the traffic violation or not!
It would be such a denial of Justice for a Prefect to reject such an appeal.
What are we expected to do from abroad? Go through the entire legal process to be vindicated in such a simple matter?
After an extensive and excruciating ( slight exaggeration
) research, I have put together (and translated) an appeal letter.
This letter template is standard, adapted from similar letters sent by Italian residents to their Prefects.
If I were in your (fortunate) situation I’d definitely send the letter of appeal.
If the Prefect denies my appeal, well …., I’d send him (& EMO) packing and would certainly never pay the fine doubled.
Best!
Al (not Alex)
Hi,
First of all, thank you for the excellent and detailed information on this blog!
I’ve just received formal notification of a speeding offence in Sardinia. The date of the alleged offence was 22 August 2009 and the notification is dated 22 July 2010. I did not previously receive any informal correspondence from EMO or equivalent. I am considering appealing this to the prefect of police on two grounds:
a) As more than 210 days elapsed between the alleged offence and the date of the notice, I have not been notified of the allegation within a reasonable time. If I appeal on these grounds I will refer to Part 1 Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights and case C-224/00.
b) As my surname is spelled incorrectly on the notification, I will argue that it has not been validly served. I will, of course, wait until at least the 17th August before sending this appeal so that any revised notification they send will fall after the 360 day limit. I have checked my correspondence with the hire company and they had the correct details. All other details are correct (though there’s no way I can remember any details of the alleged offence – I don’t even know where I was driving at the time set out in the notice!).
I have a few questions on which I’d very much appreciate any comments:
1) Though I appreciate that you are not in a position to give legal advice, do you have any general comments on my chances of the above being successful?
2) Specifically, do you agree that my proposed application of C-224/00 is right?
3) The 11 May update appears to indicate that the revised wording to the law gives the authorities 60 days to send fines to drivers resident in Italy. You then say that the relevance of case C-224/00 “will be diminished, if not reduced to zero”. Am I right in thinking that the revised highway code has not yet been enacted into law and therefore, even if its effect were retrospective (i.e. it were to apply to offences comitted and/or notified prior to the revision) it would not apply to my case and I would therefore have to rely on the Article 6 and C-224/00 argument.
4) In your 17 February 2010 update you highlighted the words/phrases: “within a reasonable time”, “presumed innocent” and “promptly” in Part 1 Article 6. I am a little concerned, however, that clauses 2 and 3 appear to apply only to criminal offences, while clause 1 appears to also apply to “determination of … civil rights and obligations”. Are speeding and other motoring offences within the definition of criminal offences for the purposes of ECHR? Failing that, do fines for them come within the determination of civil obligations?
5) Does anyone have any experience of failed appeals? If I get a rejection along with a demand for double the amount, would it be worth sending the original amount along with another letter, again referring to ECHR and the disproportionality of being penalised for exercising my statutory right to appeal, and then hope that they don’t bother with the paperwork associated with chasing the balance?
Once again, many thanks!
Gareth
Gareth,
As you rightly pointed out: “you are not in a position to give legal advice”, so these are just my observations:
a) EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00 dealt with offenders of the Italian highway code who were pulled up by the police “on the spot”.
Italy has complied to judgement of EC with Law 3 February 2003, n. 14.
–> While Italian residents may pay the “reduced fine” within 60 days, EU residents (+ Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway / EEA – European economic area) have to pay that same amount “on the spot”.
So, as you can see, there’s still “different and disproportionate treatment of offenders” but this article of the Italian highway code is now in accordance with EU regulation.
It could be argued that the Italian police are now able to notify European Union residents (through automatic exchange of vehicle and driving licence information) as fast, if not faster
than Italian residents (through their own DVLA).
To have some chance of success you’d probably have to appeal all the way up to the Italian Constitutional Court or even the Court of Justice of the European Communities.
But to my mind what counts is that a Judge of the Peace (not to mention a Prefect) won’t give a rat’s ass about C-224/00, or Part 1 Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights.
b) Surname misspelled !
)
Is it a serious factual error? Is your surname “Smith”, whereas “Smitth” was written on the notification?
This could very well be interpreted as a typing error, a minor error, especially considering that “all other details are correct” and that you’ve signed for the registered notification, thus admitting implicitly that you were the person it was addressed to.
What you should probably have done was refuse to accept the notification stating something like: “nobody by that name at this address” (and not “wrong name of addressee” – how do you know the name is wrong?
Where you were driving at the time, where the traffic violation was committed must be mentioned on the fine.
1), 2) See a), b). It seems to me that you’ve been validly notified.
3) Revisions to Italy’s highway code have finally been approved.
With Law 29 July 2010, n. 120 it is now:
–> 90 days (not 150 any more) (from date of infraction or identification) to notify Italian residents.
–> No change for foreign residents. It’s still 360 days from date of infraction!
The change (150 to 90 days for Italian residents) will apply only for violations committed after this law will enter into force. That means on August 13th.
5) Prefects reject 99% of appeals!
The only result you’ll obtain from appealing on the grounds of ECHR or C-224/00 is likely to be a Prefect in stitches while desperately trying to grab a pre-printed letter of rejection.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
As you know, if your appeal is turned down by the Prefect you‘ll be ordered to pay about double the fine. You then (if you wish) have 30 days to appeal to the Judge of the Peace…
Sending the original amount is pointless! Will they chase the balance? You’d have to ask them! It probably depends on the amount and their “willingness”.
Either you feel that it’s a “legitimate” fine and you want … “peace of mind” or you’re not intimidated by repeated notifications and you’ll wait peacefully for mutual recognition of financial penalties, including those related to road traffic offences and for cross-border enforcement of traffic offences in the EU to be really effective.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/sep/13/motoring.consumeraffairs
http://europeanjournal.typepad.com/my_weblog/2010/07/eu-road-safety-action-plan.html
Al (not Alex)
Hi Gareth,
Can I “butt in” to Al (not Alex)’s excellent response, as you refer to some ECHR issues mentioned in my 7 Mar post quoted in the 17 Feb Important Update near the top of this thread? I too am not a lawyer, so you should take professional advice before acting on this.
Firstly, be careful not to confuse Art.6 of ECHR with Art.6 of the EC Treaty, on which case C-224/00 was based. Although both are part of EU legislation, they are not otherwise connected. The first is about fair treatment under Human Rights legislation, whereas the second is about discrimination grounded on nationality (to which ECHR Pt.1 Art.14 also applies). Mentioning them together would only befuddle the authorities and/or judge/s. You can challenge liability under either ECHR Pt.1 Art.6 or case C-224/00 (which I think is still valid in principle), but not both at once.
You ask if speeding & other motoring offences are criminal offences. I’m not familiar with Italian legal codes, so don’t know if such contraventions are “criminal” – perhaps Al (not Alex) can help here. The only parallel I know of in UK law is whether such issues are dealt with in the criminal or civil justice system. For example, speeding offences are pursued in the magistrates court, while Congestion Zone and most parking offences are pursued in civil courts (though under statutory rules & procedures). Al (not Alex) says penalties can be appealed to a Prefect or Justice/Judge of the Peace (or whatever they’re called). I don’t know if a Prefect is a criminal law officer, but I would guess a JP probably is, thus indicating that such offences are criminal – over to Al (not Alex) for clarification.
Of course, if they are actually civil “offences”, then you have absolutely no obligation to pay unless & until the allegation has been proved in court and the claimant awarded a court order. In that case, Ch.II Art.2 of the Brussels Regulation (Council Regulation (EC) 44/2001) requires a defendant in such a civil action to be sued in his country of domicile, so the Italian authority would have to send its legal team to your local civil court and prove its case under your country’s procedures and standards of evidence & proof. In the UK, if the case is proved and you don’t pay within a month the unsatisfied County Court Judgement will be registered with Credit Reference Agencies, which could then affect your credit status and hence your ability to obtain credit in the UK.
As for sending money with an appeal, I’m with Al (not Alex) – I’ll bet that’s the last you’d see or hear of it: having got your money, what incentive do they have to return it, and why would they allow your appeal? Anyhow, the “disproportionality” bit refers to different treatment due to nationality, not penalties for exercising your rights.
I’d say forget the whole thing and stop worrying. If they chase you, start by asking for evidence as suggested in my 7 Mar post.
Best o’luck!
PabloUK (not Al or Alex)
Hi PabloUK & Gareth,
In Italy the only motoring offences which are criminal are:
- Setting up and/or participating in unauthorised motor vehicle races (Art 9, 9bis & 9 ter Highway Code),
- Driving while under the influence of alcohol (Art 186),
(Upwards of 0,8 g/l but the legal limit is 0,5 g/l)
- Driving while under the influence of drugs (Art 187),
- “Hit and Run” – Failure to stop and render aid to injured parties in case of accidents involving personal injury (Art 189).
The Prefetto is the State’s representative in a province.
You lodge an appeal with a Prefect only if you’re practically certain it’ll result in a positive outcome (notification time limit has run out, serious factual error).
For instance appealing against a ZTL fine(s) is a waste of time. The Prefect’s underling will just make sure that the offence(s) has really been committed before rejecting your appeal.
The Giudice di Pace ( JP, Justice of the Peace – you’re right, one must say “Justice” – English is not my mother tongue as you may have surmised
) is a first instance Court. The JP (4700 in Italy) is an honorary magistrate holding office for 4 years and is responsible for administering:
- Civil justice: dealing with cases of relatively low financial value,
- Criminal justice: dealing with cases of low importance.
The standard procedure is to appeal to a Justice of the Peace.
But you must attend the hearing (or get someone to attend, preferably a lawyer). And since the 1st of January 2010 you are required to pay 38 €; they don’t tell you how to go about doing this because it has not been anticipated for residents abroad.
In the end you loose the appeal, not on merit, but because you didn’t pay the 38€ and/or you were unable to attend the hearing! ………………
Winning an appeal is no easy task for Italian residents and a nearly impossible proposition for residents abroad.
For any chance of success, you’d have to take issues such as Art 6 ECHR or C-224/0 through all of Italy’s courts and… beyond.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al (not Alex)
By “For instance appealing against a ZTL fine(s) is a waste of time. The Prefect’s underling will just make sure that the offence(s) has really been committed before rejecting your appeal.”, you presumably mean to exclude appeals made on the grounds that the time limit of 360 days has expired?
Hi Dominic,
Sure, that’s what I mean !
That sentence was referring to ZTL fine(s) validly (in time) notified to the offender.
I wrote in that same comment: “You lodge an appeal with a Prefect only if you’re practically certain it’ll result in a positive outcome (notification time limit has run out, serious factual error).”
Whether you’ve been fined for speeding, ZTL, …, is not relevant. You present the appeal only on the grounds that the 360 day notification time limit from the date the offence was committed has run out.
In your case, if the matter can’t be resolved with EMO, I would really take the trouble to send the appeal letter. It’s likely to be the last you’ll hear of this fine unless you receive a letter from the Prefect of Rome confirming the cancellation of the fine.
Do not let the “60 days from reception of the official notification” go by before sending the appeal letter.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al (not Alex)
Thanks for the info about criminal -v- civil offences. I must say I’m very surprised that so few motoring offences are criminal.
Before deciding whether to accept or challenge the penalty, I think Gareth should firstly ask the authority to clarify if the offence is criminal or civil. Then, it seems to me he has three choices:
- If the offence is “criminal” he can rely on the ECHR defence or case C-224/0, as appropriate;
- If not, he can ignore all payment requests until served with a claim issued by his local civil court, if in the EU. Then demand evidence as suggested in my 7 Mar post, to verify that:
– the restriction was legally valid,
– that it applied at the time of alleged infringement, and
– that he actually infringed it;
- Pay up.
Citizens of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland can rely on the Lugano Convention, which has the same effect as the Brussels Regulation does in the EU. Citizens of other countries should ask their local civil court about any similar agreements with Italy.
Beware that the Brussels Regulation and Lugano Convention both allow an EU claimant to enforce an uncontested civil court judgment as if it were given in the defendant’s country. However, the defendant can appeal if not properly notified of the claim or if other rules & procedures were not followed, or due to erroneous jurisdiction.
Guys,
I received letters from EMO stating about fines from various Italian cities about a year ago. Fines date back to September 2008 (almost two years already). Till the moment only two or three scaring remainding letters about doubling the amount of the fines and possibility of legal procedures (I am not an EU citizen).
Has anyone been not paying the fines longer?
Best regards, Sid
Sid,
It’s not clear from reading your post if you ever received any of these letters (fines) by registered mail?
“Has anyone been not paying the fines longer?”: Yes, of course!
Al (not Alex)
I too have felt the wrath of the Italian traffic violation benevolent fund. Congratulations on the blog it’s excellent.
My fines are from Alghero in Sardinia as opposed to Pisa but the fines and procedures seem to be the same for all Italy.
I received 4 fines of €115.90 for driving in a restricted traffic area on four occasion within the space of a couple of days. Like just about everyone else I was blissfully unaware that I was dicing with the law.
I would appreciate it if someone could tell me in bullet points the procedure the authorities follow if fines are not paid.
So far I have received:
# 4 letters notifying that I should pay the administrative sanction relating to the offences. These came 7 months after the offences.
# 2 registered letters saying I am guilty of the offence (I expect 2 more to arrive soon) stating I have 60 days to pay or each fine will be increase from €115.90 to €189.90. I also have 60 days to appeal. These letters arrived 15 months after the offence.
So if I fail to pay these fines within 60 days what is the next and subsequent steps the authorities will take.
Money is tight at the moment and coughing up €460 would be very painful for me right now.
Hi “Will Do Jail Time”,
If you’ve read this “excellent blog” (or at least part of it) you know that there’s a 360 day time limit from the date of the offence to notify residents abroad.
In your case the 360 day time limit has clearly (15 months) run out and I would “strongly” advise you to send a letter of appeal to the Prefect.
To avoid repeated notifications ( and possibly jail time
) will cost you one (or two) registered letter(s) with proof of receipt to Sardinia and a little time to copy/paste the appeal template included in April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
The 4 letters you received are informal notices (Notice of payment before notification).
The (first) two registered letters are Official Notifications (violation of the Highway Code notice).
Alghero is in the province of Sassari. So, (and I believe this is mentioned in the registered letters) you must address your letter: “Al Prefetto di Sassari”.
The address is: Piazza d’Italia 31, 07100 Sassari.
Be sure to follow the procedure clearly outlined and do not let the “60 days from reception of the official notification” go by before sending the appeal letter.
Read comments on April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am, July 9, 2010 at 9:19 am and (if possible) all other comments since May.
Al (not Alex)
Thanks for the response Al. i wasn’t sure if it was 360 days to the receipt of the “Notice of payment before notification”. As it is a 360 day limit to when the registered letters arrive I will certainly make an appeal.
Thank’s
It looks like I might have avoided a week in the can.
Hi Al
In your post on 29 April 2.32am you wrote the following:
“I can not guarantee 100% that a Prefect might not reject a legitimate (> 360 days, within 60 days, registered mail, in Italian) appeal!
Because a Prefect might give a casual glance at an appeal request, grab a pre-printed letter and reject the appeal.
Because rejecting is easier, the appeal can still be “forwarded” to the Judge of the Peace within 30 days.
BUT this is a straightforward decision! Time limit has run out!
Prefects do reject 99% of appeals but really should NOT in such a case. Italians do appeal to the Prefect when their notification time limit has run out.”
I just want to clarify the procedure in very basic terms:
1) Complete the the appeal letter in Italian as per the letter template you posted on 29 April 2010.
2) Send the letter to the Prefect by registered post and the registered letter must provide proof the Prefect received the letter.
3) The Prefect adjudicates on the appeal and will most likely turn down the appeal.
4) If the Prefect turns down the appeal he must send his decision to the Judge of the Peace within 30 days.
5) Here I am a little unclear – Does the Judge of the Peace go against the Prefects decisions and wipe out the fines based on the 360 day rule?
Maybe I am a bit cynical but I can’t foresee the Judge of the Peace wiping out these fines and it would not surprise me if they would remain on the Italian system unpaid.
Has anybody every received notification that their fine has been wiped from the slate based on appeal?
I certainly agree with your approach Al in that it is good to follow procedure in the event that these fines might raise their head at an inopportune time in the future. Having a decision against me for unpaid fines is not something I would want to carry with me.
Thanks for your help.
Hi “Will Do Jail Time”,
1) Yes!
If I were you I would send one letter of appeal for the first 2 registered letters (fines), or for the four fines, depending on when you receive the last 2 registered letters.
The important thing, naturally, is to abide by the “60 day rule from reception….”
Modifications (plural for 2+ tickets!) in caps:
“Il sottoscritto”
“Oggetto: ricorso contro multE notificatE…”
“premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE, …, ha ricevuto I verbalI di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. N° 1ST FINE, N° 2ND FINE, …, fa notare che lE notificHE deGLI stessI SONO avvenutE oltre 360 giorni daI fattI, …….”
“Chiede che I provvedimentI vengaNO annullatI”
“Allega: fotocopiE deI verbalI notificatI”
Do not forget to enclose readable copies of the fines.
2) Yes!
Registered letter WITH proof of receipt!
3) Well, no! The Prefect’s underling should absolutely not reject your appeal!
! So don’t expect me to give you a 100% guarantee!
Your official notifications are dated (I expect) July/August 2010, well over 360 days after the date of the traffic violation.
Either you’ve been notified over 360 days after the date of the offence or not!
As I said this should be a straightforward decision. But this is Italy
I can only assure you that this is the standard procedure and that Italians do appeal to the Prefect in such a case.
4) No! If the Prefect turns down the appeal you’ll be ordered to pay roughly double the fine (the €189.90 you mentioned in your first post + procedural costs).
Then you can appeal against his “injunction” to the Justice of the Peace within (actually) 60 days for residents abroad, 30 for Italian residents (Art. 205). (That is what I meant by “forwarded”)
5) Of course a Justice of the Peace can overrule the Prefect’s decision.
But this is idle talk.
In my opinion after having appealed to the Prefect you’d have made every conceivable effort to follow the Italian procedure.
As I’ve already written: “It would be such a denial of justice for a Prefect to reject such an appeal. What are we expected to do from abroad? Go through the entire legal process to be vindicated in such a simple matter?”
I can’t see any significant difference between not paying your fines and having the Prefect turn down your appeal.
You have three options:
- Do nothing (which is always a possibility),
- Pay the reduced amount within the time limit,
- Take advantage of being fortunate enough that your fines were sent over 360 days… and take the trouble to follow procedure and write that appeal letter to the Prefect.
Should the Prefect deny the appeal, ….
The idea of being a “sucker” doesn’t appeal to me.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
P.S./ I trust your name is appropriate.
wow-
apparently, in our process of returning the rental car in rome [train station], and being utterly w/o directions as to how to do so]-we have racked up two different fines, for 25 euro plu ssome 5 uero fee on top. our credit card was charged(over 3 months after we returned home to California), and now two weeks later, we finally get bills from Hertz (which I suspect they ONLY sent b/c we denied the charged to our cc company).
The Hertz letters are in Italian-I have no clue what the ‘infaction was’-only that it had to have been while we were figuring out how to return the rental car. Any suggestions from anyone? This was rush hour on a Friday, and we found we had to go round a nd round to get into a parking garage to return our car. We have received no notice from the Italian police [Municipal Roma’ or whateve ryou call it)
Should we tell Hertz they are not authorized to charge our card, and that we need proof of the infaction? Closing the credit card we used is not an option in this case-also b/c they have already chaged the card and we filed the appeal with them.
A trip to Italy: The gift that keeps on….scr*wing you out of Euros. LOL
Frankly, our Ttrip was underwhelming. Overated and overpriced-that’s how I saw Italy, and I saw 2/3 of it from Puglia up thru Tuscany. I am not impresssed, and have NO interest in returning to Italy at any time in my life. Too many other fish in the sea. Even the food and wine did not impress. And Rome is totally overrated. But Italians are wonderful people!
Rant aside-I was looking online to translate this info, and came up with this blog-thanks for the info.
Irm,
Italy overrated ?
Not bloody (or should I select an other word more commonly used in the US) able to find decent food and wine in Italy?
Perhaps I’d better say no more!
Luckily you admit to be “ranting”! I’m sure you won’t let a couple of fines get the better of your judgment!
Rant aside
– The 25€ (+ 5€ – 20% VAT) charge is NOT the fine.
It’s an “admin fee” from Hertz following a request from the Italian police to obtain the personal data of the car renter who committed the traffic violation.
When you signed the rental contract you surely agreed to pay for the admin charge. Read the small print.
You’ll receive over the next few weeks (months) the actual fine from EMO (http://www.emo.nivi.it/).
EMO is a collection agency officially mandated by an ever increasing number of Italian Municipalities to collect fines from foreign drivers.
While you were attempting to return your rental car you probably entered a ZTL (Zona a Traffico Limitato – Restricted traffic zone). Scroll down this page.
If you “have NO interest in returning to Italy at any time in my life”, ………………..
Al (not Alex)
ps-the fine is for verbale fine on line and the ‘fine’ itself is only for 5 eruros! The ‘spese administrative’ is 25 euro on top. Can anyone assist in clarifying? I am very grateful!
well, i have come across this info from http://www.complaintsboard.com :
Same amount 30E, Hertz also, from March this year….so I’m going with this for my particular case
Comments Sort by: Date | Rating
178 days ago by mercier 0 Votes
I had the same. I received a bill from Hertz Italia for 30 Eur stating Verbale fine on line issued by Novate Milanese. The problem is that I was driving from Bologna Airport to Parma…not at all around Novate Milanese.
What happened to you next ?
53 days ago by BuckinghamPA 0 Votes
Same thing happened to me in march. This is a total fraud. I contacted American Express and, without batting an eye, took the charge off my credit card. Said it was one of the allowable charges to be reversed. My only theory is that they have seen this time and again from Hertz Italia. Must be a “gentlemens handshake” with Italian polizia and Hertz
Irm,
As you will have seen from earlier posts in this thread, many others (including me – see my 28 Feb post) have had the same problem. Al (not Alex) is correct – these are NOT fines, just Hertz’s charges (including sales tax, NOT a fine) for giving the hirer’s personal data to the Roman municipal police. As he says, the rental Terms & Conditions probably allow that when you commit a traffic offence.
Ask Hertz to cancel the charges on the ground that you have not been officially notified of any offence or related fine. If that doesn’t work, go back to your your credit card issuer and ask it to reverse the charges as unsubstantiated because:
* Hertz has not:
– identified the rental term/s and/or condition/s under which it claims payment
– supplied any evidence of the “administrative expenses” claimed, how they were calculated or
– where, when and/or how they were incurred.
* Neither Hertz nor Comune di Roma has supplied any evidence:
– of the nature of the supposed traffic violations
– that the alleged violations are legally valid
– that the alleged violations actually occurred
– of the penalties applicable for the alleged violations
– that any such penalties have been imposed
– that you are liable for any such penalties.
Point out that if a “fine” is suspect or the allegation not proved, any associated fees & charges must therefore be equally invalid.
Any advice for this situation? I have a disabled parking permit, and a friend visiting from the states was using my car, also to drive me places. He accidentally parked in someone else’s reserved handicapped space: there were 3, and not being familiar with the ins and outs of Italian disabled parking he chose the the only one that was an individual space, and the car was ticketed. I guess legally I have to send in his driver’s license etc. as the driver at the time of the infraction, but will this mean that he gets the fine in the States? Is there any way I can keep this from happening? It seems so stupid. Thanks for your help.
Misty,
Advice given with no guarantee!
This is an unusual situation!
At present you have only the ticket found on the windscreen?
Is the traffic violation number mentioned?
I had a look at the Italian Highway Code.
For Art. 188,4 the fine is 78€ and … 2 points are deducted from the driver’s license.
For Art. 188,5 the fine is 38€.
I think (but I’m not sure) that Art. 188,5 should apply in your case.
So if it’s Art. 188,4 you’ll be asked to give the driver’s details.
Will they send the fine in the States? Presumably. But no point deduction!
If it’s Art. 188,5 I would naturally pay the 38€ fine.
Make sure that there’s no point deduction.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Alex,
I wonder if you could take the time to confirm that I have read everything correctly on your sight as the fear of a fine getting doubled is worrying. Today I received via registered post a notice of prosecutin for a restricted zone (230810) The notice tells me an offence was committed on 240609!!! Which is obviously a long time ago and well over the 360 day time frame. My question is in two parts. a) As its over the limit am I right in assuming an appeal will be successful, has anyone confirmed this is the case? b) I and one other were insured and as the time frame is so huge we cannot remember who was driving. In this country you cannot prosecute if you dont know who the driver is. Is this a legitimate way around it? Id like to also say we did not commit this offence willfully. The charge is 119 euros but I feel I have grounds to appeal. Many thanks Shawn
Shawn,
a) You are perfectly right in assuming an appeal will be successful!
Although collection agencies such as EMO mislead foreign tourists deliberately, Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states very clearly that the 360 day time limit runs from the day of the offence.
“Has anyone confirmed this is the case?” This is still pretty new!
People who sent the appeal letter have yet to receive a response. A Prefect has up to 360 days to inform you of his decision, if he ever does.
b) Art 196,1 (Solidarity principle) states that as owner of your (private) vehicle, or as holder of the rental agreement of the vehicle, you are considered to be jointly liable with the author of the traffic violation for the payment of the fine.
(I believe Art 196 is mentioned in your registered letter)
You can always sue your wife, friend,… to recover the amount of the fine.
Identifying the driver is relevant when points are deducted from the driver’s license. If the owner doesn’t give the driver’s details he’s subjected to a 263€ (up to 1050€) fine. (Art 126-bis)
I don’t know who sent you the fine. You can email demanding that your fine be cancelled on the grounds of Art 201.
If this “informal appeal” doesn’t work I would absolutely send, within 60 days, the appeal letter to the Prefect.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included), August 21, 2010 at 9:58 pm and scroll down through the comments since May.
Al (not Alex)
Just another piece fo the story. We received four fines in June from a trip in November 08. I emailed back and forth with the EMO and was able to get two of them discarded as they were on days that we checked into our hotel. I ended up ignoring the other two, as they would not understand that we were loading our luggage for a 3 AM departure the next day.
Fast forward to last week when I get a call from Cedar Financial, a debt collection agency in California. They say I need to pay the fines within thirty days or my name will be “flagged” and I may have to deal with the fines in customs if I enter Italy or the EU again. I’m tempted to jsut pay them ($660 US) and get it over with, but I am also thinking that I may risk not paying them. I have also tried to get back in touch with my hotel in Florence to get an email saying we “checked out” on the day of the fines.
Another option is offering the debt collection company that I will pay for one, since they were 10 minutes apart. He did assure me that NOTHING will be reported on my credit history either way.
In my opinion, the Florence police, and then the EMO have gone a long way to collect these fines, so maybe they mean business. I guess I made a mistake by contacting the EMO in the first place, as they now have all of my email correspondance. I guess that’s what you get for trying to do things the right way.
jd,
As you know the ZTL (restricted traffic zone) permits in Florence are issued for a maximum of two hours for baggage transport purposes and, therefore, only on the arrival and departure dates.
So, strictly speaking, you didn’t load your luggage within the allotted time frame.
Even though they could have been a little lenient considering your 3am departure the next day.
It’s shameful the way these Italian municipalities “hand out” those multiple ZTL fines (within a short time frame).
If June 2010 was the first time you received these fines via registered mail, they were invalid because they were sent over 360 days after the day of the traffic violation.
Nevertheless, you still had to dispute them and appeal to the Prefect within 60 days from reception of the official notification.
Emo will continue dishing invalid fines out without so much as blinking an eye because there’s a 35% commission at stake, many will pay up out of fear, peace of mind, … and they know that it’s rather difficult for foreigners to challenge the legality of these fines.
I’m a little surprised that the two remaining fines were “sold” that quickly to a debt collection agency.
In my opinion, the “name flagged…” matter is an empty threat from Cedar Financial!
Debt collection agencies are very skilled at this “game”.
Now that those two fines are in the hands of Cedar Financial, they won’t care about any letter from a hotel in Florence. Only EMO (or the Florence municipal police) could have cancelled them.
And lastly, you did very well to contact Emo and have your first two fines cancelled. A pity you didn’t know about the 360 day notifying time limit for the other two.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al-
Thanks for the reply. I should have been more clear, we did get them first in June of 2009, so they were within the 365 days. The more I think about it after talking with him, I think we may just not pay them. I agree that the customs threat seems empty, but at first when they got ahold of me I was a bit rattled I must admit. I think I’m going to wait it out and if they call back, ask them for evidence that they are indeed working with the EMO.
Thanks-
Hello again Al
I think I have managed to get my local MP’s office interested in this problem. So, as far as you know, would a British MP be able to appeal to the Prefect of Rome on my behalf, to overturn a fine that has passed its 360 day time limit, or do I have to do it myself?
I assume that an MP’s letter will stand more chance of being read than my own.
Cheers
Hi again Dominic,
No luck with EMO? Did they at least reply?
As far as I know,…..?
Well, as far as I know, I’d say that you were the one driving through a ZTL in Rome in January 2009. Or, at least, you were the holder of the rental agreement.
This is why you received the fine and you’re the one who must appeal.
(Furthermore I have my doubts that the Prefect’s underling would be overly impressed by a British MP’s letter)
Of course your letter of appeal will be read!
Italian Prefects receive letters of appeal daily, a number of them for notification time limit overrun.
And I wouldn’t worry if I had to wait quite a while for proof of receipt.
Copy/paste the appeal template and send your registered letter with proof of receipt to:
Al Sig. Prefetto di Roma
Prefettura di Roma
via IV Novembre 119/A
00187 Roma
Best,
Al (not Alex)
I emailed the EMO twice – no reply. Ba*****s!!
Hi Al,
Thank you very much for your excellent blog!
I have the following address for the Prefect of ROMA on all my 4 fines of July/2009:
U.O. Contravvenzioni del Comune di Roma
Via Ostiense 131/L, 00154 – Roma
You’ve mentioned an other adddress for Rome earlier somewhere.
i guess I have to use my given one, right?
Janos
Hi Al / Alex
Came back from a holiday in Australia to find the “Fine Notification of the Road Traffic Code” code letter from Comune di Riomaggiore relating to an alleged speeding offence (66km/h in 50km/h) on 10th April 2011 when my wife and I were in Italy in the Cinque Terre. The yellow A.R. form was still attached to the envelope – does this mean that I have not been formally notified as it has not been returned and that I should just wait for another to turn up (hopefully after 360 days)?
There is detail of a website on the rear of the letter where apparently I can see proof of the infrigement but when I go to this site it comes up as an “Untrusted” site and Firefox warns me fervently about the dangers of opening it as it has an invalid security certificate. So, I haven’t looked yet and am reluctant to risk the security of my laptop to check whether the Carabinieri have done their job properly or not.
Should i just sit tight for now?
Thanks for this amazingly informative blog.
John
Hi John,
Riomaggiore is also known for its autovelox (speed camera).
The speed limit is set artificially low (50) on a straight stretch of road.
You’re just one of the many “victims” of this speed trap.
The numbers are just staggering!
Yes, it does mean that you have not been formally notified.
Will they send another one? Maybe. Probably not.
Will you be chased by a debt collection agency?
I don’t know if the Comune di Riomaggiore resorts to such agencies in your country of residence. Probably not. Anyway, they can not legally enforce the fine.
How nice of Firefox to warn you “fervently”!
Why would you ever wish to log into their website?
Let’s relax and sit tight!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thanks Al. I’ll sit tight. All very interesting. I did check the website (perhaps I shouldn’t have done – but I doubt they can prove it was me!)
Hi Al
i just received a fine from the Pisa police for an infringement on 01/06/2009 for entering the restricted traffic zone.Any chance of obtaining the appeal template letter and who/where to send it to in Pisa
many thanks
Hi Bruce,
If the fine is a “Notice of payment before notification” sent via normal post, you can’t yet lodge an appeal.
If the fine is headed “Violation of the Highway Code Notice” and has been sent via registered mail, then it’s the Official Notification which mentions, among other things, that you can appeal to the Prefect of … or the Justice of the Peace of … within 60 days …
So, if this is the Official Notification, copy/paste the appeal template and send your registered letter of appeal with proof of receipt to:
Al Sig. Prefetto di Pisa
Prefettura di Pisa
Piazza Mazzini 7
56100 PISA
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
Read carefully April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment where you’ll find the appeal template.
And (if possible) scroll down through the comments since May.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thanks Al
It was a registered notification,although it was all in italian,so our postman just left it without getting a signature-couldnt read italian i guess
i have sent of the appeal letter in any case,we shall see what transpires
again thanks for your help-and this blog
Hi Al
Thanks Al and Alex for the very useful information on this page.
Today I received via registered post a notice of Infringement of the Italian Highway Code (the date of the notice was 5 August 2010). The offence relates to circulating in a restricted travel zone in Pisa on 11 April 2009. Clearly this exceeds the 360 day rule. I am a UK resident as was travelling in Pisa.
I intend to appeal The Prefect of Pisa (using the template on the post dated April 29 and the address on the 1 September post) on the basis of time limits. However, I am not clear whether the appeal needs to be made in Italian. The Notice expressly says that if you appeal to a Justice of the Peace, the appeal needs to be made in Italian. However, when referring to the option about appealing to the Prefect, there is nothing in the Notice about the language of the appeal. Is this intentional? In other words, does the absence of the express wording relating to the Italian language in respect of appeals to the Prefect, mean that the appeal can be written in English? It is slightly confusing as the Notice makes it clear that appeals to the Justice of Peace must be in Italian but silent in relation to appeals to the Prefect.
Hi Sam,
You gave Alex’s page on “Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy” a thorough read. (y)
Nothing much to add!
Is it intentional that the language of the appeal to the Prefect is not specifically stated in the notice of infringement you received? No, certainly not!
All appeals must be made in Italian!
Furthermore, with regard to appeals to Pisa Authorities, the writing in the letter should lean at an angle of 5.5°!
Do not forget to send the appeal letter in … Italian and within 60 days of receipt of the official notice and to enclose a readable copy of the Notice of Infringement.
Do not be concerned if you never receive a reply from the Prefect.
As you know a Prefect has up to 360 days to give you an answer.
After 360 days without reply the appeal is deemed to be accepted.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi
I’ve just received from the police department in Verona notification thet i entered a restricted area and they are fining me 92 euros, this ‘offence’ occurred in March 2009, 18 months ago, The car was a hire car, hired in Milan, I returned in March, hired a car from the same office and nothing was mentioned about an outstanding police notification.
Has the 18 months exceeded a time scale?
Regards
Patrick
Hi Patrick,
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that the offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days.
This 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic violation.
Even if the time limit has well and truly run out (which is your case), you must dispute your fine and appeal to the PREFECT within 60 days from receipt of the Official Notification.
You should read at least “Section 1 – the Important ‘need to know’ stuff” at the top of this page and my reply to Bruce on September 1, 2010 at 6:57 pm.
Read also April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment where you’ll find an appeal template.
And (if possible) scroll down through the comments since May.
If you have received the Official Notification, copy/paste the appeal template and send your registered letter of appeal with proof of receipt to:
Al Sig. Prefetto di Verona
Prefettura di Verona
Via S.Maria Antica 1
37121 Verona
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
Best regards,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al
Just a quick (but I think pertinent) one: the letter I was sent says I need to appeal to the prefect of Roma, but the address provided is not the prefect’s address – it is the address of the authority that sent me the notification letter. One of the conditions of the appeal is that I write to the prefect at this latter address! So which address should I write to ??
Yours in haste!
Hi Dominic,
An appeal to the Prefect can either be sent:
–> “directly” to the Prefect (in your case via IV Novembre, Roma) or
–> “through” the “competent police station” (the authority that gave you the fine).
If you write at this latter address you can add on the appeal letter:
Al Prefetto di Roma
(Tramite “the name of the authority that sent you the notification letter”)
“Tramite” means “care of”.
The Prefect must come to a decision within 210 days when you present the appeal directly to him or within 180 days if you send the appeal through the police.
(Less 30 days because, in this latter case, the Prefect doesn’t have to send your appeal to the police).
After these 210 (180) days the Prefect has an other 150 days to send you his response.
So 360 days (or 330) in total depending on whom you sent the appeal to.
Do not be concerned if you never receive a reply from the Prefect.
After 360 days (330) without reply the appeal is deemed to be accepted.
I had suggested that you send the appeal directly to the Prefect because I didn’t know which authority had sent you the fine and, as I see it, it doesn’t matter at all whether you’ve committed a traffic offence or not, the notification time limit has run out.
But, as you now know, it doesn’t make any (real) difference. The choice is yours!
You wrote that you received the official notification on the 27th of July.
You have until the 25th of September (60 days) to send the appeal letter.
Don’t wait for the last day to send your registered letter of appeal with proof of receipt and to enclose a readable copy of the official notification.
That’s it! I hope I have been exhaustive!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thanks Al, I will send as instructed and let you know the outcome in a year’s time.
I got an email response from my MEP on this subject, who claimed the following:
“looking back at previous cases from constituents, I have found that the time periods in which fines are applicable, under Italian law give the authorities 360 days in which to issue the fine. But it is important to note this is the period from which they can identify the driver, such as when they receive the relevant information from a car hire company. ”
Lucky we have MEPs to look after our interests, eh? Otherwise who else would?!
Thanks again for all your help and advice.
Dominic
Very well done Alex. Impressive. I just read your whole blog. There are 2 questions which seem to be unanswered (and is the situation I, and perhaps many, am now in).
I received 2 NOTIFICATION OF VIOLATION OF THE HIGHWAY CODE for 2 separate infractions (within few minutes of each other) for driving in Roma “in a limited traffic area without authorization”.
Infractions occured on Oct 11 2008 and the NOTIFICATIONsOF VIOLATION OF THE HIGHWAY CODE are dated January 2010.
I had a rental car (AVIS). I am a Canadian citizen.
When I received them back in January I ignored both as i thought what the heck is this because 1) i do not recall ever drving where they say i did 2) i never received a ticket from any police officers AND 3)the thought of an internet scam certainly cross my mind).
So i ignored both.
Now in July 2010 they sent a Last Reminder letter and now again in September.
My 2 questions are:
1) What happens if you don’t appeal within the 60 days (which I didnt due to 3 reasons above) BUT the NOTIFICATION OF VIOLATION OF THE HIGHWAY CODE was sent to me more than 15 months after the infraction? Will the charges eventually drop on their own as they will realize a) I am not reachable (i moved…i got the Sept 2010 letter only because i know the person who bought my house and they informed me) and b) much more than 360 days had elapsed.
2) I can only assume that with the thousands of such cases in last few years (and the countless blog comments) there are surely many others which have also continuously ignored the “last reminders” and chose not to pay. There has to be a body of evidence on the matter. Question is: What happens if you don’t pay ? Is it just an issue if you do come back to Italy AND get pulled over by the police they may say you now owe this much? Can the rental car company now bill you (they have my current CC on file (not the one from 2008 as it expired) as I am preferred member)? If you refuse to pay, can they prevent you from renting a car again? Or worse, can Canadian authorities have authority to seize assets due to some international agreement.
This is the main question I’m sure many would like answered…What happened to the many who chose to NOT pay!
i am not sure if the answer to my 2nd question varies depending on if 360 days have elapsed between infraction and NOTIFICATION OF VIOLATION OF THE HIGHWAY CODE. (remember i never appealed as i thought it was a joke)…
Thank you Alex!
Hi Sébastien,
You read the whole page?
“Quelle santé! Vous êtes allés vous coucher moins niaiseux hier soir”.
Before answering your comment could you specify the following:
- If, in January 2010, you signed for the two “Notifications of Violation of the Highway Code” which were surely sent by registered mail with proof of receipt.
- Were the July 2010 (day of receipt?) & September 2010 “last reminder letters” sent by registered mail with proof of receipt, and if so, did you sign for the July 2010 letter or did the person who bought your house sign for the September 2010 letter?
Read my answer to Alastair on June 3, 2010 at 12:53 am.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Merci Al (not Alex)!
The July and September 2010 letters were NOT sent via registered mail. Only the January 2010 ones were.
PS: Something i didn’t mention above. AVIS Autonoleggio sent me a 2 notices (one for each infraction) in March 2009 which said they will debit my CC twice 12,50 euros +20% IVA tax for a total of 2×15=3- euros.
Letter said this was for administrative expenses of supplying my personal data to authorities. Thank you AVIS.
Considering no one was injured, no officers were invloved and NO ONE SUFFERED any financial consequences as a result of these 2 “infractions” I fail to understand why they still harrass people 2 years later!
I love Italy (been twice) and visited the whole country (17 out of 20 provinces) and would love to come back in near future BUT i am NOT paying these ridiculous invoices (would be like $600 canadian now) so need to know if A) they are even valid requests (considering the 360 days rule) and fact i never appealed the original NOTICE of Violation and B) irrespective of A) WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DONT PAY !!.
I meant 2×15=30 euros!
Two traffic violations in Rome in October 2008.
You received (and signed for) two official “Notifications of Violation of the Highway Code” sent via registered mail in January 2010.
These two notifications (dated January 2010) sent over 360 days after the date of the driving offences were invalid.
–> BUT, in order to follow the legal procedure, you should have lodged an appeal within 60 days from the date of receipt of the fines.
Therefore you were officially notified in January 2010 and these fines (and all subsequent notifications) are still VALID because you didn’t appeal within 60 days at the time.
EMO can prove that you were officially notified in January 2010.
And it would be pointless appealing against the July 2010 (if you’re still in time) or the September 2010 notifications.
The Italian authorities have five years (Art. 209-Italian Highway Code) to collect fines from the date of the infraction.
–> But this time limit can be interrupted by any official act relevant to the fine!
In your case this 5 year period runs now from January 2010, not from the date (October 2008) of the traffic violations anymore.
(The July & September 2010 “reminder letters” are not official acts).
If you were an Italian resident the next step would be for the Italian authorities to send you a “cartella esattoriale” (collection notice) before January 2015.
Will these charges drop on their own? I don’t know.
It depends on EMO’s “willingness” to keep on pursuing you.
EMO doesn’t have a clue you moved and the 360 day notification time limit doesn’t factor in anymore
Yes! Many others chose not to pay. Some keep on receiving “reminder letters”.
What happens if you don’t pay? (Don’t shout!
)
Presently there’s no effective mutual recognition of financial penalties (including those related to road traffic offences) and cross-border enforcement of traffic offences in the EU.
And to my knowledge there’s no such agreement in force between Italy & Canada.
In my opinion the only thing they can do is “sell” your fines to a debt collection agency in Canada.
Very popular method employed against French traffic offenders nowadays. Such an attempt was carried out by the Milan municipality through a local debt collector in Switzerland last year and… failed.
EMO doesn’t have a “business license” in Canada or any other country.
Even debt collection agencies, duly established in your country of residence, can not collect fines on behalf of Italian municipalities.
Read jd’s August 24, 2010 at 7:45 pm comment.
In Italy, if the car is a rental, Art 196,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Solidarity principle) states that the car rental company is NOT jointly liable with the author of the traffic violation and the holder of the rental agreement of the vehicle for the payment of the fine.
As you have sadly discovered, the rental companies will only bill you an “administration fee” following a request from the Italian authorities to obtain the personal data of the car renter who committed the traffic violation. They must provide the information within 60 days.
By the way Avis can always charge your old 2008 CC (for the admin fee) today (expired or cancelled – they still have the CC details).
That card was valid the day you signed the rental contract in Rome and your credit card company will accept to pay any claims from Avis relating to that period, when you committed the traffic infringements.
Unless the car rental agreement allows them explicitly to charge you also for the payment of the fine, Avis will not pay your fines.
They would have done it in March 2009 when they first got news of your fines.
I don’t see why they would bother to include such a clause: they’re not liable (and I suspect car rental companies lobbied hard for this), it can only be a source of complication with their customers.
Not to mention that it’s also “unfair” to you because, once the fine is paid, you can’t appeal anymore and you might have very good reasons to.
Anyway, Avis is out of the picture by now!
They have chosen to pursue you, as holder of the rental agreement. You lucky ……!
As far as I know there’s no “traffic offender national register” and you won’t be arrested at customs and forced to pay the outstanding fines.
You’re welcomed back in Italy to visit the last three regions.
You “fail to understand why they still harass people 2 years later”? “No one suffered any financial consequences”?
Well, on the one hand, the municipality of Rome hasn’t yet recovered the amount of your fines, on the other, the collection agency EMO is very much interested in their 35% commission.
They’re uttering “show me the money!” (in these “dire times” we’re facing).
Taking all things into consideration, …………
Lastly, I should remind you that I’m neither a lawyer, nor a qualified expert on all the different aspects of this matter.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
I´m another victim of the limited traffic area violation.
I´m really tempted to appeal once the official notification arrives, since it took more than a year since the infraction (403 days to be exactly).
However, I´m still a little worried.
If I appeal using the ’360 day argument’, is it certain that they will cancel the fine? Do you know people that actually did this and won?
Is there any chance I have to pay double the price?
Thanks!
Hi Luiz,
So, up to now, you’ve received only a notice of payment before notification sent via normal mail.
And you’ve read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment?
Nothing is absolutely certain!
Surely you don’t expect me to predict if the Prefect’s underling will apply the law correctly.
Italian residents appeal (and win) frequently to the Prefect when their notification time limit has run out.
This appeal letter I’ve put up for foreign residents dates back to April.
A Prefect has up to 360 days to give you his answer.
Read August 3, 2010 at 10:19 pm & August 21, 2010 at 9:58 pm comments.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thank you very much for taking the time Al…Your english is very good by the way. Are you Italian? You write better than 99.7% of North Americans.
PS: I paid the 30 euros to AVIS back in March 2009 (didn’t mean to imply i didn’t…if i did indeed imply).
You mentioned “there’s no traffic offender national register in Italy” … does that mean that when I come to Italy and (if) I get pulled over by a police officer (for speeding for example) he has no way of knowing if i have an outstanding unpaid invoice with the city of Roma?
Thank you very much for taking the time Al…Your english is very good by the way. Are you Italian? You write better than 99.7% of North Americans.
You mentioned “there’s no traffic offender national register in Italy” … does that mean that when I come to Italy and (if) I get pulled over by a police officer (for speeding for example) he has no way of knowing if i have an outstanding unpaid invoice with the city of Roma?
PS: I paid the 30 euros to AVIS back in March 2009 (didn’t mean to imply i didn’t…if i did indeed imply).
PS2: Blog wouldn’t let me reply to original thread therefore this new thread …(not sure why)
Thanks for complimenting me on my English.
99.7%? Only a measly 99.7%? I was aiming higher than that!
(To be honest I “get by” with a little help from the Web)
Yes! Italian and Swiss.
With regard to Avis’s admin fee, I didn’t mean to imply… uuuh… anything… if I did indeed imply you hadn’t paid the 30€. I’ve reread that specific paragraph and I can understand why you thought……..
I was merely saying that Avis doesn’t need your current CC details to bill you. I mentioned the admin fee (in brackets) because they can’t charge you for the fines.
A few traffic offenders have successfully reclaimed the car rental admin fee. In your case the fines ended up to be invalid (until you didn’t appeal), thus the associated admin fee must therefore be equally invalid and be paid by the Italian Authorities/collection agencies (in an ideal world).
I wrote: “As far as I know there’s no traffic offender national register”.
The police in the province of Como have a “local” register. Do other cities, provinces have a traffic offender local register?
To be safe I wouldn’t drive in Rome (and even then!), but in other parts of Italy the risks are negligible, if not nonexistent. I’d say nonexistent.
For traffic offenders pulled over (on the spot) – Art.207.
(Example: Art. 142,8-Italian Highway Code, speeding by more than 10km/h up to 40km/h over the limit – Fine: between 155 & 624€)
- An Italian resident may pay the minimum amount (155€) (or appeal) within 60 days,
- If you, (Canadian resident with Canadian driving license), get pulled over driving a friend’s car or a rented car (with Italian license plates):
–> You (have to) pay the minimum amount on the spot, and be done with it, but no appeal possible anymore.
–> You (have to) pay the minimum amount on the spot but you must specify “as security/guarantee” and an appeal is still possible.
–> If you don’t pay the vehicle is impounded (and stored) at your expense until…….. you cough the money up.
It’s quite complicated. Many combinations depending on the driver’s driving license and the car’s license plate. Italian, UE + EEA (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway) or other.
Al (not Alex)
Again, I would just like to say what a great informative blog!
I have received two notices for entering a restricted zone from a trip in July 2009.
The first letter was for an infringement of circulating in a limited traffic zone in Florence. The letter came whilst we were on our honeymoon in Italy during June 2010. Stupidly I did not keep the envelope, but obviously I did not sign for it as I was not in the country. I ignored the letter as it could quite easily have been lost in the post and there was no proof that I had received it and decided to see what followed.
Two days ago I received a letter that had the yellow card mentioned in an earlier post with a red stamp on the front saying signature required – my postman must have missed this meaning I have not signed for it. This one at first I thought was following on from the first letter but it is actually from the same trip but this time for an infringement for circulating in a limited traffic zone in Pisa.
Now I just want to double check, both of these fines are now over the 360 day limit you have mentioned and as of yet I have had no notice that I have signed for meaning there is no proof I have received either. So does that mean I sit tight and until I sign for a letter I do nothing? And then if I do sign for one I then fill out the letter of appeal stating that they have gone over the 360 day notification period?
I am slightly worried as I have been back to Florence twice since the date of the original fine, as I got married there this year. We had to go into Florence on several occasions to sort out the legal requirements and stupidly I was not aware of the Limited traffic zone until after the first letter came through – so there could be a few more fines to come through!
Thanks in advance.
Hi Wendy,
1) Traffic violation in Florence in July 2009.
–> In June 2010 you probably received an unofficial notice, a “Notice of payment before notification” sent via normal post by the collection agency EMO.
The official notice, sent via registered mail, is headed “Notification of Violation of the Highway Code” and is the only one which mentions that you can appeal to the Prefect of Firenze or the Justice of the Peace of Firenze within 60 days.
Anyway, as you said, you didn’t sign for anything!
Presumably you’ll receive in a few weeks the official registered notice which will be over the 360 day limit. You then dispute your fine and appeal to the Prefect of Florence within 60 days.
2) Traffic violation in Pisa in July 2009.
–> In October 2010 you received the official registered notice from S.E.Pi. S.p.A. (Società Entrate Pisa S.p.A.
But you haven’t signed for it, SEPI has no proof you’ve received it.
Either you wait for a second official notice or you send the registered letter of appeal (with proof of receipt) anyway (like Bruce did September 15, 2010 at 11:41 am) within 60 days.
I would probably send it and be rid of further hassles with this Pisa fine.
But the choice is yours, naturally.
Al Prefetto di Pisa
Prefettura di Pisa
Piazza Mazzini 7
56100 PISA
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
Read carefully April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment where you’ll find the appeal template.
And, even if you seem to have already done so, scroll down through the comments since May.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Wendy
if you want piece of mind,i would send the letter of appeal template Al refers to.I took the 5 mins it takes to fill it out and send it off in the mail.It cost me $15 australian dollars to register it and request notice of receipt,which i received this week via return post.
as far as i am concerned,thats the end of it, i certainly sleep better now LOL
Hey Al/Whomever Else,
I posted on your blog back on June 6, 2010, at 5:51AM. I’ve gotten MORE letters from the Municipality of Rome today.
Quick recap of my situation….
I traveled to Italy in March 2009. While in Rome, I rented a vespa for 2 days. Unknowingly, I violated 4 traffic laws, all of which I had NO idea I was in violation.
All 4 violations took place on March 1, 2009, as listed on the “Last Reminder” notice I received today.
On the notices I received today it reads the following…..
“Dear Sir,
With this communication we would like to remind you that on the 2010/06/03. (June, 3, 2010) we sent you the notification of a fine issued by the Council of Cumune Di Roma Carpo Di P.M. U.O. Contravvenzioni for a total of 103.50 (Euro) to be paid within 60 days from the date of the receipt. The penalty for non payment within the time limit is double of the sum as provided for by article 202 of the Italian Highway Code. There is also the opportunity to appeal against the fine as indicated in the above-mentioned notification.
However, we invite you to make the payment within the stated deadline, avoiding further costs and legal action. We remind you that the payment can be made as follows……………”
Then they list my options to pay by either credit card or wire transfer. It continues…
“We inform you that if you do not react to our request for payment, legal proceedings will take place, in accordance with international agreements in force with your country regarding ‘notification abroad of administrative sanctions”. All the expenses will be charged to your account as provided for by the Art. 201 of the Italian Highway Code.”
All 4 “Last Reminder” notices are dated 10/15/2010.
If you go back to my original post, I stated that I DO NOT want to pay these fines as I am not a citizen of Italy, nor do I plan on returning anytime soon (within the next 5-8 years).
Al, in your response to me, you said that they have 360 days to notify me of the fine? Well, on all 4 of these “Last Reminder” letters I received today, they state that the infractions took place on March 1, 2009 AND that they sent me my first notifications of the fines on June 3, 2010.
So that is clearly passed the 360 day deadline. How can I go about this so that I do not have to pay any fines and I can just get rid of this issue already?!?!
To be honest, I am refusing to pay UNLESS they can issue some kind of international warrant for my arrest.
Al (or others) please advise. I can also send a copy of these notifications to you if it would help. They provide me with online access to their website using a username and password.
Thanks for your help!
-Brandon
Hi Brandon,
This is Al, not Alex.
You posted on Alex’s blog on June 3, 2010 at 5:51 am and I answered on June 3, 2010 at 2:54 pm.
The question is NOT whether you were notified in time………
We have already established that:
- The four traffic violations took place in March 2009,
- The official notifications were probably (dated) sent from Italy at the end of May 2010.
You received (signed for) them on June 3, 2010.
–> March 2009 –> May 2010 ==> The 360 day notification time limit has run out.
………. BUT why didn’t you lodge an appeal ???
This issue would have been resolved by now!
In my response, I had written that, if you wanted to follow the legal procedure, you HAD to appeal in Italian to the Prefect of Rome within 60 DAYS from the date of receipt of the official notifications. Even if the 360 day time limit had well and truly run out!
I had also added that an appeal template (with all the necessary instructions) is included in my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Since more than 60 days have passed (since you were officially notified on June 3, 2010) it would be useless now to present an appeal.
No need to send a copy of the notifications, I know what’s written on them.
There won’t be any international warrant for your arrest!
lol
For an unpaid traffic fine?
What can happen is that your unpaid fines are “sold” to a debt collection agency in the States.
But, as far as I know, even such US based agencies, can’t enforce the payment of Italian traffic fines.
Read jd’s comment on August 24, 2010 at 7:45 pm.
So, if you’re not “intimidated” by repeated notifications (“Last Reminder” notices), I would keep on not paying those fines, especially considering the fact that they were invalid since the beginning. Even though you should have appealed!!!
Ultimately it’s your decision naturally and I should remind you that I’m not a lawyer.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thankyou for this detailed website. It is reassuring to see strong support against what I view to be Municipale ‘fining’ its way out of a recession.
At the risk of Al/Alex repeating yourself, I thought I could get some casual guidance.
During a trip to Italy in mid 2009, I was stung with three Florence ‘Limited Traffic Area’ fines. All are just minutes apart (must have been out of peek hour I guess). I received the unofficial ‘notice of payment before the notification’ in December 2009 and the official letter in April 2010 (within the 360 days). By this stage I had relocated house and the new occupant advised me they rejected these letters (I gave them a heads up for reasons I will outline below).
Just the other week I received three ‘Last Reminders’ (forwarded to me by the occupants of my former residence) drawing reference to the April formal notifications they sent me. The fines are now valued at 109.65 Euro each (sorry, we don’t have the euro symbol on our keyboards here).
In December, I raised this with the Italian consulate here in my country (I wont name my country to not get this person in trouble) who said he saw too many of these fines and ‘suggested’ not to pay and to ignore the official notifications. EMO will then procure the monies due from the car hire company. I am nervous about this suggestion as I could potentially see the car hire company coming after me, even though my travel credit card was cancelled the day I arrived back from my trip.
From your understanding am I able to appeal on the fact that they cannot prove I received the Official notices within 360 days? My intended plan is to appeal based on the only letter I will admit receiving, and that is the ‘last reminder’ which I received post the 360 days.
Cheers
Charlie.
Hi Charlie,
Don’t be nervous !
The car hire company will NOT pay for your fines!
–> In Italy, if the car is a rental, Art 196,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Solidarity principle) states that the car rental company is NOT jointly liable with the author of the traffic violation and the holder of the rental agreement of the vehicle for the payment of the fine.
The car hire company has one legal obligation and that is to provide the personal data of the car renter within 60 days, otherwise they could end up paying for the fine.
Read my answer to Sebastien on September 24, 2010 at 6:55 pm.
In my view the “last reminder” letter sent to traffic offenders:
- By normal post,
- Over 60 days (time limit to pay or appeal) after they’ve received the formal notice, whether they’ve signed for it or not,
–> is not an official notification: hence you can’t appeal based on a “last reminder” letter.
Such an appeal wouldn’t be taken into consideration. (As if you had never appealed)
In that paragraph where they “draw reference to the April formal notifications” something like this is mentioned:
–> “Bloody hell! You were supposed (my interpretation of course) to pay within 60 days […] or submit an appeal in the manner specified in the aforesaid (official) notification.”
(I don’t have the English version of the letter)
If they reply, they could very well say:
- That you were notified in April, within the 360 days. (Even though they can’t prove that you’ve received the official notifications).
- And that it’s now too late to appeal: more than 60 days have passed since April.
I see the “last reminder” as a “nice” way to “invite” the traffic offender to pay the same amount as on the formal notification, although he’s now liable for roughly double that amount because he didn’t pay within 60 days.
Up to now they have no knowledge that you’ve received anything.
I would simply… keep on ignoring these repeated notifications.
Unless you were stung so badly that a compelling urge to contribute (by paying these ZTL fines, shamelessly duplicated for violations just a few minutes apart) to the municipality of Florence “fining its way out of recession” crept over you?
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thanks for the clarification Al.
Although I am tempted to pay these fines as a ‘donation’ to the beautiful city of Florence, based on principle I have been stung three times for the same offence. That is below the belt…
Further it is a very expensive donation….
Are you aware of EMO engaging debt collectors to procure monies due? I live well outside of the EU zone, I’m not sure how serious they get!
I find this whole topic quite entertaining, especially by the fact the Italian Consulate representative I net with was visibly emotional when explaining to me how unjust these fines were and they were collecting these fines to lodge a formal complaint to the Italian Government. Not sure how far he will get though, I imagine EMO is the cash cow for the City of Florence. Have they paved the streets with gold yet?
Again, thanks for your generous help.
Yes, I’m aware of EMO engaging debt collectors.
It’s a popular method employed against French traffic offenders nowadays.
(Most of them aren’t so easily intimidated)
Such an attempt was also carried out by the Milan municipality through a local debt collector in Switzerland last year and… failed.
Debt collection agencies, duly established in your country of residence, can not collect fines on behalf of Italian municipalities. (The Italian State must initiate legal proceedings, …)
As I said, unless you want to donate……….
Until recently Florence had the record number of fines per capita in Europe.
But the streets aren’t paved with gold yet, which is a shame really, and the local authorities are facing a “rebellion” over a questionable radar machine (28000 fines over a three-month period for a single fixed radar) from outraged local citizens.
Relations are strained between the mayor and the municipal police chief.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Guys,
I have received the infamous “circulating in an unauthorised zone ” fine from Pisa today 6th November 2010. The date of the offence was 18th July 2009. From the comments and advice I have read on this site I feel the authorities have “run out of time” but I’m not sure. Anyone know for sure if 16 months is “pushing it”
Hi David,
Sure ! 16 months is “pushing it”!
I believe you‘ve received the official (sent via registered mail) notice from S.E.Pi. S.p.A. (Società Entrate Pisa S.p.A).
From what I’ve seen, S.E.Pi Pisa doesn’t seem to be sending (unlike EMO) unofficial notices.
Was there a yellow detachable card on the rear of the envelope?
Did you sign for the letter?
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
Read September 1, 2010 at 6:57 pm comment.
I would send an appeal letter to the Prefect of Pisa.
Please read all (or at least scroll down through) the comments since May 2010 before eventually replying.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
We first received a charge from Europcar in December 2009 and reluctantly paid it. We thought that payment was for the fines… Well, SURPRISE, we got today the fines, each for 119 Euros. Almost fainted… The date on the yellow sticker on the back is 21-10-2010. So it is almost 15 months or over 360 days.
We received the “Infringements of Italian Highway Code” notice from S.E.P.I.
1. I understand that the best thing is to send the letter you kindly wrote in Italian to the Perfect.
2. Since I have two fines, should I send them in one envelope or two?
3. The procedure that you recommend is
a. To send your written Italian letter
b. Attach a copy of the “Infringements of Italian Highway Code” notice from S.E.P.I.
c. Attach a copy of the yellow sticker from the back of the envelope that shows the date it
was sent
d. Mail it registered with returned signed receipt to:
Al Sig. Prefetto di Pisa
Prefettura di Pisa
Piazza Mazzini 7
56100 PISA
Thanks again for all the wonderful work here. If people will keep sending the letters, they might stop this terrible practice or become more efficient in sending them out
Any further information on the matter will be greatly appreciated.
David,
1. Yes.
2. Send one letter of appeal for the two fines. Same grounds: over 360 days, same town (Prefect): Pisa.
(See appeal template)
Modifications (plural for 2 tickets!) in caps:
“Oggetto: ricorso contro multE notificatE oltre 360 giorni daI fattI.”
“premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE, ha ricevuto I verbalI di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. N° 1ST FINE, N° 2ND FINE, fa notare che lE notificHE deGLI stessI SONO avvenutE oltre 360 giorni daI fattI, …….”
“Chiede che I provvedimentI vengaNO annullatI”
“Allega: fotocopiE deI verbalI notificatI”
3a) Yes. If you wish to dispute your fines and follow the legal procedure.
3b) Yes. A readable copy of the two fines.
3c) If you wish. In that case you add under: “Allega”: fotocopia dell’avviso di ricevimento. Enclosed: copy of proof of receipt (the yellow sticker).
But it’s not necessary. The dates on your two fines are already well over the 360 day notification time limit.
3d) Yes.
Al (not Alex)
Al, you are amazing and thanks so much for the help!
For future readers who will need to send a letter for multiple fines, I am attaching the letter with the adjustments you kindly made (so people will save time, it took me some time to do it).
Al Prefetto di ___
Raccomandata A.R.
Oggetto: ricorso contro multe notificate oltre 360 giorni dal fattl.
Il/la sottoscritto/a _______, residente in _______, titolare del contratto di noleggio della vettura targa,
premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE, ha ricevuto l verball di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. N° 1ST FINE, N° 2ND FINE, fa notare che le notifiche degli stessl sono avvenute oltre 360 giorni dal fattl, estinguendo quindi l’obbligo di pagamento.
Come stabilito dall’art. 201, comma 1 del Codice della strada, nel caso di residenti all’estero, il verbale deve essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Per quanto sopra
Chiede che l provvedimentl vengano annullatl.
Allega: fotocopie del verball notificatl, fotocopia dell’avviso di ricevimento.
Date…………… Signature (readable)
Please correct me if I made an error above.
Also, I thought the yellow stickers are needed since they are the real proof that the fines were sent to me over 360 days later.
Thanks again, your service is so appreciated and I am going to post a link to this in some other sites for people who plan on traveling to Italy so they will be careful. They will also have a chance to enjoy Alex blog.
David,
Thanks! It’s always nice to be thanked!
Just one slight error. You left the “i” in caps.
–> “… 360 giorni dai fatti …, … ricevuto i verbali …, … notifiche degli stessi …, … dai fatti …, … Chiede che i provvedimenti vengano annullati, Allega: fotocopie dei verbali notificati.”
Also don’t forget the car’s license plate: “…della vettura targa_______,”
Well, the date on the letter (fine) is proof enough.
This date already shows that you are being notified over 360 days later.
The (sending) date on the yellow sticker is important when this date is outside the 360 day time limit AND (BUT) the date on the fine is inside the limit.
It can take them 7-14 days to post the fine(s).
That’s why one must always keep the envelope (yellow sticker) for the postmark.
But never mind! It can’t do any harm to send also a copy of the yellow sticker.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
You are right, I didn’t see the date on the letter (they wrote and posted it the same day)! So I guess I will not send the yellow stickers.
Sorry for my mistakes, I just couldn’t figure the l from the i
I am attaching the letter for future generations :
BTW, mine happened on the same date 2 hours apart (in and out of Pisa) so I just put the same date twice under dates. For the fine numbers, I put the whole long fine number which ended with the year 2009
Hope it is now clear of mistakes:
Al Prefetto di ____
Raccomandata A.R.
Oggetto: ricorso contro multe notificate oltre 360 giorni dai fatti.
Il/la sottoscritto/a ___, residente in ______, titolare del contratto di noleggio della vettura targa _____,
premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE, ha ricevuto i verbali di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. N° 1ST FINE, N° 2ND FINE, fa notare che le notifiche degli stessi sono avvenute oltre 360 giorni dai fatti, estinguendo quindi l’obbligo di pagamento.
Come stabilito dall’art. 201, comma 1 del Codice della strada, nel caso di residenti all’estero, il verbale deve essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Per quanto sopra
Chiede che i provvedimenti vengano annullati.
Allega: fotocopie dei verbali notificati.
Date…………… Signature (readable)
The letter is fine!
Just add the hour with the date(s).
Fine numbers: perfect!
BTW, “Il sottoscritto___” for a man, “La sottoscritta___” for a woman.
I think we have covered everything and … more.
David,
Correction !
The date(s) mentioned on the appeal letter is/are the date(s) you received the fine(s) at home, the date(s) you signed for the registered mail.
So, I believe, in your case, just one date: November 8th (or is it 6th), 2010.
Al (not Alex)
Are you referring to “premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE”? and if so, should it be “premesso che in data 11-8-2010″?
I did type the day we were in Pisa… (good I didn’t send yet…)
Thanks
Yes, David!
Read the translation on the appeal template (April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment).
In your case you received the (two) fines (letters of infraction) n.(umber) “1”, n. “2” on the same day: 8/11/2010.
In Italy the date format is (dd/mm/yyyy).
–> “premesso che in data 8/11/2010, ha ricevuto i verbali…″
You can also write “in data 8 Novembre 2010”.
Al (not Alex)
I hope it posts as a reply(it sends me to the bottom of the page when I hit reply).
Thanks Al. I understand the problem was just the date (day/month/year).
Corrected! and ready to go!
Hello Al, Alex and all fellow upset drivers who are considering never returning to Italy again!!
Great site by the way and the only one with any real help on the issue of these law stretching fines.
I first heard about my little altercation in October 2009 when I received a receipt from my hire car firm, listing a Pisa restricted zone traffic violation in early June 2009 as the reason for a £17 charge. I didn’t call to have it reversed as I had more important things to do at the time. I kept hold of the receipt for about 3 months though, based on how the UK police always jump on your behind within 4 weeks of offending, after which time I thought that should be it and I wouldn’t hear anything more.
In mid October 2010, I received the full monty fine of €119 on my doormat, yellow slip still attached and no signature requested by the postman. So officially I haven’t received anything as far as I’m concerned.
So because I’ve not officially acknowledged the letter, I could do with some other advice on which is the most sensible route to take:
1. Refuse the letter’s existence – I know they’ll be back with another letter which I’ll have to sign for at some point, so should I just sit it out and let the clock keep ticking until the previously mentioned 549 day time limit is definitely up and the appeal has total grounds of success?
2. Appeal now – the time differential of offence notification is 491 days from the offence to the time I received the letter and 479 days from the offence to when the letter was sent. The only proof I have of the car hire firm’s identification of me is the date of the credit card payment. Looking at that, the Pisa authorities sent the letter 353 days after the supposed identification date by the car hire firm. I, however received the letter 370 days after the supposed identification date. I know that 360 days for foreigners from the offence date is mentioned here as what should be the law translation, but I’m also gathering that the authorities are still harping on about that it’s from the date of identification of the driver when the 360 day rule comes in. So, as you might gather, I’m rather confused. Does that mean I can successfully appeal? Has anyone successfully appealed using the translated letters that were kindly supplied on the site?
3. Just pay it and leave a note saying I’m never coming back to the country because of this tourist fleecing town (which is a pity because I got married in Sorrento in 2003 and toured the whole country).
So yes, I’m confused and cheesed off with Italy (all because of little Pisa) and I’m telling everyone I know about what they’ve done, and them using the excuse of “this is how we do it, so get used to it”. I bet Traffic violations in Jamaica are enforced faster than this (no offence to our Jamaican friends, but the average cool as a cucumber Jamaican is first to say that in their land there are 3 speeds: slow, stop and reverse).
I read somewhere that the Florentine council were boasting that this rouse brings in €25 million a year for them alone. I wonder how much that weighs up against revenue for lost tourism and exportation?
Not good enough Italy and pull your legal socks up, before this whole thing blows up in your face and everyone boycotts not just tourism, but Italian products too.
Please help and thank you for anything!!
Jim
Jim, I see no reason why you should not appeal to the Perfect and get it canceled.
Hi Jim,
It seems you’ve read quite a lot about these Italian fines.
I would have hoped that, after reading this “great site”( BTW, thanks!), you wouldn’t be “rather confused” anymore.
- 549??? There’s no 549 day time limit!
- EMO, SEPI Pisa purposely mislead foreign tourists about the 360 day notification time limit! And, unfortunately, well-meaning people spread this despicable lie on the web.
- For notification purposes the relevant date is the letter (fine) sending date.
–> Early June 2009 –> ZTL traffic violation in Pisa.
–> Around October 2009 –> You were officially “identified” the day the Pisa authorities received your contact details from the car rental company.
The only way to know would be to call or send an email to SEPI asking them on which date you were identified.
If they bother to reply to your email? Or, if the person you speak to on the phone, understands English?
–> Early October 2010 –> Your fine was sent from Pisa.
There’s a (slim) possibility that the fine was sent more than 360 days after your “identification”.
In that case, even according to their (absolutely wrong) definition, your fine is invalid.
If so, SEPI should cancel the fine. Get it in writing! No need to present a formal appeal.
(360 days is NOT 365 days/one year)
Yes, you could “refuse the letter’s existence”. SEPI has no proof that you ever received it.
Will they be back with another registered letter? Perhaps?
EMO (for Florence, Rome,… fines) sends a “last reminder” letter or “works something out” with a local debt collection agency.
There are no definite rules about this.
It probably depends on the amount of the fine(s), the offender’s country of residence, their willingness to pursue the matter,…
What I would do is take the trouble to send the registered letter of appeal (with proof of receipt) anyway! 479 days from the offence!!!
You’ll be rid of eventual further hassles with this Pisa fine.
Should you decide to do so, remember that you have 60 days (from mid October 2010) to appeal to the Prefect of Pisa.
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
When the appeal is successful Prefects don’t bother to reply.
After 360 days without reply the appeal is deemed to be accepted. (Art. 204,1-bis – Prefect’s measures – Italian Highway Code)
“Just pay it and leave a note…” ? I do like the British sense of humour!
Read carefully April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (appeal template).
Read October 8, 2010 at 7:29 pm, August 3, 2010 at 10:19 pm comments.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thanks Al & David
I was a little confused because I was stupidly skipping through the wealth of info on here!! My other excuse is that I’m a designer, so I’m used to looking at pretty pictures rather than words.
Anyway, I’ve sent the letter (so I can say I’ve followed the rules), but I’m shutting down my credit card just in case. Many thanks for you taking the time to digest my temperamental ramblings!
I think I’ll be off to Spain next…
Jim
I have just noticed a charge of €36 on my credit card from Hertz dated 12/11/10 they have emailed me back today saying that is if for a traffic offence (no details of the offence given) during my stay in Italy, this €36 covers their administration fee and the fine should be in the post from the authorities. After getting billed €107 extra for half a tank of petrol already now this from Hertz it is very annoying. My stay in Italy was 4/8/10 – 16/8/10 do I have any claim back on the €36 as to the amount of time it has taken to inform me of the extra charge or the fact that I have no notification from the Italian authorities of a fine yet.
Or do I sit and wait hoping the fine does not arrive till this time next year.
Thanks for any replies
Greg,
August –> Traffic offence.
November –> Hertz receives the fine (with all the details of the offence) from the Italian police.
The car hire company has a legal obligation to give the hirer’s personal data to the police.
When you signed Hertz hire contract you agreed to pay for this admin charge.
The rental Terms & Conditions allow that when you commit a traffic offence.
If you wish you can demand that Hertz justifies this extra charge by emailing you a scan of the fine.
The 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the offence.
Hence, the official notification must be “sent” (by registered mail) before roughly early August 2011.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Al (not Alex)
Thanks for your reply
What a fabulous website, all round – thank you for being here & all the advice and help you offer to us unfortunate folk; we appreciate you.
Sadly, like others, I came across Blog from Italy for all the wrong reasons – namely a violation in Florence that I have now received my official ‘Violation of the Highway Code’ for.
Trying to be brief – my offence occurred on the 18th September 2009, the police retrieved my details from Avis on the 24th October 2009. The notification was sent from Italy on the 14th October 2010 but I did not receive it until the 26th October 2010.
Clearly the deadlines for the 360 days to be notified are very tight for me. EMO have put it in writing to me that the 360 day rule runs from the date of the police retrieving my details. So, my question is:
If I assume EMO are correct, would the 360 days run to the day the notification was posted from Italy or when I received and signed for it here in the UK?
There is a twelve day difference and this could make the difference to wether I appeal or not.
All advice is gratefully received, and thank you all again.
MCAC,
If I have understood you correctly, you’ve had an exchange of emails with EMO.
And, in their reply, they told you that you had been officially “identified” on the 24th October 2009.
Your “identification date” is the day the Florence police received your contact details from Avis. Only EMO could have given you the precise date.
If things went this way, then less than 360 days have passed between the 24th October 2009 and the 14th October 2010.
Always, always, the sending date for notification purposes!
Is the 14th October 2010 the date on the notification (fine) or the date on the time stamp on the envelope/yellow detachable card?
ANYWAY! What is important is not to swallow the bait!
Do not take everything EMO says at face value!
–> The 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the offence!
Please read:
- “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page,
- Comments on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included), August 3, 2010 at 10:19 pm, September 10, 2010 at 8:42 pm and November 17, 2010 at 4:36 pm.
And (if possible) scroll down through the comments since May.
The 360 day time limit has clearly (almost 13 months) run out and I would definitely send a letter of appeal to the Prefect of Florence.
Copy/paste the appeal template and send your registered letter with proof of receipt to:
Al Prefetto di Firenze
Prefettura di Firenze
Ufficio Ricorsi per Violazioni al Codice della Strada (Appeals office for violations of the Highway Code)
Via Antonio Giacomini 8
50132 Firenze
Remember that you have 60 days (from 26th October 2010) to appeal to the Prefect.
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
thanks for your swift and informative response. I will proceed with copying the letter template and send it registered post.
Before I do, I have one question.
On the (English version) template it says:
‘Whereas on date…………, has received the official notification’
Do I put the date the letter was sent from Italy or the date I signed for it at the door in the UK?
Sorry to be a pain; I just want to get this right…and make it go away
Again, thank you for all the time you and Alex are spending on this for people like me. I don’t know what I would have done had it not been for this site.
Hi MCAC,
Thanks! Glad you appreciate the information in this blog!
English isn’t my mother tongue but I thought …
–> The date you (received it is the date you) signed for it at the door in the UK!
In Italy the date format is (dd/mm/yyyy).
–> “premesso che in data 26/10/2010, ha ricevuto il verbale …″
You can also write “in data 26 Ottobre 2010”.
The Prefect’s underling will then check the date on the notification (the date the fine was written) and notice that this date (if different from the sending date) is already outside the 360 day time limit.
It can take them 7-14 days to post the fine.
Do not confuse the “notification/fine number” with “EMO’s file number”.
Write “Al Prefetto di Firenze … + full address …” also on the appeal letter.
BTW, “Il sottoscritto___” for a man, “La sottoscritta___” for a woman.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
I was traveling in Rome in December and January of last year and just received two letters from EMO asking for 99 Euros each. the violation was listed as:
ART. 7 c. 9/c. 14 was driving in a limited traffic area without authorization.
I can find no explanation of this and have no recollection of commiting such a violation. Both infractionswere in the area of the Coloseum. Can you help?
David,
You probably entered the “Centro Storico” ZTL (Zona Traffico Limitato / Restricted Traffic Zone).
http://www.romealive.com/romes_ztl_limited_traffic_z.html
http://italychronicles.com/how-to-avoid-fines-in-italy/
If you were staying in a hotel (within this ZTL), you can try and contact the hotel to find out if your two fines can be cancelled.
Read “Section 1 – the Important ‘need to know’ stuff” at the top of this page.
You’ve received two “Notice of payment before notification” (unofficial notice) sent via normal post by the collection agency EMO.
The 360 day notification time limit will be up shortly. I would wait to see if the official registered fines are sent in time.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
Read August 27, 2010 at 3:13 pm comment and scroll down through the comments since May.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
First of all, kudos on running such a helpful blog – you seem to have helped a lot of people!
I too have received a 119 EUR fine for entering a restricted traffic zone without authorization. Your info on the Italian Highway Code is most helpful — do you know where it can be found online? Apparently the Municipality of Pisa isn’t aware of Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code, since they sent me a letter in November 2010 for an infraction that supposedly happened in October 2009, so more than 360 days later. From what I read here, this means the fine is invalid. I therefore intend to use your template from April 29 to appeal the fine. Although they tell me I can appeal, they conveniently forget to give me the contact details of the Prefect of Pisa.
Can you help?
Thanks!
James
Hi James,
SEPI Pisa is very well aware of Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code but conveniently misreads it as being 360 days “from the date of receipt of your contact details sent by the car rental company”.
Which means that there’s absolutely no time limit to find out who hired the car? They can decide to identify the offender whenever it suits them!
Article 201,1 (Violations Notification) states very clearly that the 360 day notification time limit runs from the day of the offence.
Read August 3, 2010 at 10:19 pm and August 21, 2010 at 9:58 pm comments.
All the info is in Italian. You can find the Italian Highway Code at: http://www.altalex.com/index.php?idnot=34127
Send your registered letter of appeal with proof of receipt to:
Al Prefetto di Pisa
Prefettura di Pisa
Piazza Mazzini 7
56100 PISA
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
Read November 20, 2010 at 9:38 pm comment.
Best,
Al (not Alex who runs BlogfromItaly.com)
One more to add to the file ! PISA COMUNE Offence dated 22-09-2009. “AR” letter received in the UK 06-12-2010. Yellow Card, still attached to the envelope, shows a Date of 29-11-2010
Have emailed esteroinfo@sepi-pisa.it who tell me the (seemingly) usual “360 days from ident” and an appeal MUST BE MADE IN THE ITALIAN LANGUAGE. Surely one can appeal in ones` own language ?
Blog is a massive help to the un-initiated !
Jim,
Well, no ! You must appeal in Italian.
“In one’s own language”? Why not appeal in Swahili?
As you well know, they all speak the Swahili language in Italy!
22/09/2009 –> 29/11/2010 –> > 360 days!
The date on the letter (fine) is probably also 29/11, at any rate, well over the 360 day notification time limit.
Even though you still have the detachable yellow (A.R.) card (you have not signed for the registered fine), I would send the registered letter of appeal to the Prefect of Pisa.
Considering also the fact that you had an exchange of mails with Sepi.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
Read October 8, 2010 at 7:29 pm comment.
Scroll down through the comments since May.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Al, thanks for the reply. I take the point about Swahili !! What about Bantu ?
Is Russian OK ? (No reply necessary). I`ll pay the damm fine and cross Italy off my holiday list .
Regards JimM.
Hi Al
I rented a car in Milan for a couple of days in September 2009 with Herz. In January I check my credit card statement and see Herz had taken some 35 Euros off my card, when I called them and asked they say it was because administration fees for passing my details onto local Police.
In March i received a letter from Nivi Credit Srl, saying that on the 16/09/09 I was driving my rented car in a bus lane in Milan and asking me to pay some € 100.00. There was no picture or proof of the offence, just date and time of the alleged offence, since it was not a recorded delivery letter I just threw it in the bin.
Today, i received another letter from the same company, dated 25/11/10, I believe they sent it by recorded post because there is some kind of tag at the back which has been detached and on the envelope it says “signature required Royal Mail” although this has been crossed out , however I didn’t sign anything, I jsut found it today in my letter box when I got back.
Anyway, even if this was the actual notification, I believe the 360 day rule should apply here so I was thinking in appealing to the Milan prefect. Do you know of anyone who has been successful in appealing?
Thanks
Emanuele
Hi Emanuele,
It is the actual notification, headed “Violation of the Highway Code Notice”.
And it mentions that you can appeal to the Prefect of … or the Judge of the Peace of … within 60 days …
Your postman should have asked you to sign for it or left a note asking you to pick it up at the post office.
The 360 day rule does apply: 16/09/2009 –> 25/11/2010 –> > 360 days!
Even though you have not signed for the registered fine, I would send the registered letter of appeal.
Al Prefetto di Milano
Prefettura di Milano
Ufficio Ricorsi per Violazioni al Codice della Strada (Appeals office for violations of the Highway Code)
Corso Monforte 27
20122 MILANO
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification.
When the appeal is successful Prefects don’t bother to reply.
After 360 days without reply the appeal is deemed to be accepted. (Art. 204,1-bis – Prefect’s measures – Italian Highway Code)
Best,
Al (not Alex)
I too,was caught by the dreaded Italian traffic cameras, on our fifteenth trip to Europe from the US.
I have detected a real and growing problem with both the Italian authorities and specifically Hertz
in their dealings with American tourists.
After returning a car in Rome, we were later billed for a tank of gas,I always return them with a full tank, probably because the check in clerk was too busy chatting on the phone to accept the keys. I contested it with my Credit card co. (I kept the receipt for the fill up) and the charge was denied.
Hertz also tried to charge me for “damage to another rental car in Europe(I had a sneaking suspicion that something was up, when the clerk told me on checking the car out that it was brand new “and any damage will be charged to your card”. I took photos of the car when I returned it.
3 mos after returning to the US, we were informed that we had done E350 damge to the car.
Again presented the photos to my credit card co, and they denied Hertz’s claim.
In short, Not only will I not be returning to Italy, I will be telling anyone who listens ,about the unethical and possibly illegal practices now being foisted upon unsuspecting tourists
For those of you who still want to visit Italy ,my advice would be ,visit smaller cities(You really get more out your visit) and if you rent from Hertz, save your documentation, and take pictures of your car upon returning it. Cheers , George
Hi
I would like to express my apreciation for this for great site. CONGATULATIONS.
My problem:
On the 7th of July 2009 I was on a vacation in Italy with my family. For that occasion I rentetd a car and after a visit to Firenze we arrived in Rome on the 15th of July 2009. On my way to the hotel, without any intent of violating any highway code I passed trough a ZTL (traffic limit zone), I wish to explain that the hotel (Notti a Roma) is situated in Via Firenze side street to via Nazionale. Via Firenze is a narrow street, so when I was discharging the luggage I was forced to move in order to make way to the traffic to pass,and consequently I had to make the same way trough the ZTL to Via Firenze for the discharging of the remaining luggage, which explains the 3 violations in a matter of 12 minutes.
On the 27th of August 2010, 408 days after the violation, I received a notice of payment for the above mentioned violation, but from the nivi site I discovered that the car rental company gave my particulars to the Italian authorities on the 28th of December 2009 less than 360 days. From previous posts it seems that it is almost clear that in my case the 360 days time limit has passed but also from another post there is one stating that the judge did not except such argument.
I sent my query to the customer service (of my country Malta) for complaints regarding probllems concerning the EU. The customer service in Malta contacted the Italian couterpart and their response was quite interesting and new and I like to shrae it with you.
According to the Italian Highway Code Article 201 when the person who makes the violation is a foreign citizen the authorities have to notify the individual about the traffic contravention within 360 days from the day of violation. Note however that this period stops running when the car rental company receives the fine and it will continue from when it stopped when the car rental company provide the Municipal Police with the driver’s details.
Receiving this response continued to puzzle me further more on the 360 days limit.
Thanks for you great work and if it is possible I like your opinion
On my chances of success on contesting my case. Thanks
Edmond
Malta
Hi Edmond,
Thanks!
From reading your post, I gather that you’ve received 3 “Notices of payment before notification” for ZTL violations committed on the 15th of July 2009.
These are “unofficial fines” sent via normal post by the collection agency EMO (Nivi) which is mandated by the Rome authorities to notify fines to foreigners.
The appeal authorities (Prefect or Justice of the Peace) are not mentioned, you can’t lodge an appeal.
Yet an other misinterpretation of Art. 201!
Why don’t you visit EMO’s website and read their (absolutely wrong) definition:
“the 360 days start as […] from the date of receipt of the personal data sent by the car rental company”.
(FAQ n°17 http://www.emo.nivi.it/Faq.aspx)
What I would do :
1 – WAIT for the official registered fines.
2 – You were “identified” around the end of December 2009.
If the official “Violation of the Highway Code notices” are SENT more than 360 days after your” identification”, then these fines are invalid even according to their definition.
Send an email to EMO, they will cancel your fines. ASK for a written confirmation!
I know for a fact that EMO has already cancelled fines which were sent over 360 days after identification.
3 – Appeal to the Prefect of Rome within 60 DAYS from the day of receipt of the Official Notifications.
Al Prefetto di Roma
Prefettura di Roma
via IV Novembre 119/A
00187 Roma
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included), November 10, 2010 at 4:46 pm (for multiple fines) comments.
Read August 3, 2010 at 10:19 pm, December 9, 2010 at 8:18 pm comments.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hello,
We were in Italy for 5 days, 4 months ago. Today we received 9 (!!) fines. One of them is from Siena – “NO TRANSIT AREA RISERVATA”, 4 of them are “VERBALE FINE ON LINE” – 2 from Roma & 2 from Firenze (the other 4 I didn’t get yet, only was charged by Hertz of 9 fines).
Can somebody guide me what is going on ? what to do ?
Thanks and regards,
Ofer
Hi Ofer,
Do not confuse Hertz charges (administration fees) for giving the personal data of the car renter to the Italian municipal police with the fines, which you will receive at a later date.
When you signed Hertz hire contract you agreed to pay for this admin charge. The rental Terms & Conditions allow that when you commit a traffic offence.
I would ask Hertz to justify these extra charges by emailing a scan of the fines.
These 9 fines (roughly 110€ each) are probably all for ZTL (Zona Traffico Limitato / Restricted Traffic Zone) violations. You drove in these restricted areas without permission.
These ZTL exist in many Italian cities.
http://www.romealive.com/romes_ztl_limited_traffic_z.html
http://italychronicles.com/how-to-avoid-fines-in-italy/
Read “Section 1 – the Important ‘need to know’ stuff” at the top of this page.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment and scroll down through the comments since May.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi I received two of these fines via hertz from Gallipoli.
how can I verify/contest the charges?
I don’t have any scans of the infraction, only the bills from hertz.
Hi Bill,
Hertz should have sent you copies of the original fines!
Read Steve’s September 8, 2011 at 9:34 pm comment and following comments.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-31537)
Were you staying in a hotel within Gallipoli’s ZTL (Zona Traffico Limitato / Restricted Traffic Zone)?
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi
I got my ticket 12/30/08
They say “notification abroad of administrative sanction” as stated inArt 201. They say legal proceeding will take place…in accordance to international agreements in my country…I am USA citizen…We are not EU…Do they have a right to come after me? The ironic thing is I was just in Italy again and nothing happened to me at the airport or hotels when I presented my passport. Do I pay? It has been 2 years!
Hi Brian,
You don’t give too many details!
My guess would be that the letter you just received was headed “Last Reminder”.
Right? If this is the case, the “official fine” was received months ago.
Your ticket could be “given” to a debt collection agency in the States.
Read August 25, 2010 at 11:34 pm, October 29, 2010 at 10:21 pm, November 3, 2010 at 9:44 pm comments.
Read April 23, 2010 at 9:34 am, September 24, 2010 at 6:55 pm comments.
Taking all things into consideration, …………
Hi
On 15th September 2009 a hire car i was in went through one of these Restricted Areas in Florence. I received 2 fines in June 2010 which I paid.
I then received 2 more fines (so 4 separate fines in total!!!) which were dated the 18th November 2010 but weren’t received at my address until 6th December 2010.
Am i still liable for these fines? or can i ignore them using the 360 day rule?? These letters were sent in the normal post.
Thanks
Peter
Hi Peter,
This is a little odd!
You’re sure these “2 more fines” are not the same as the 2 you paid in June?
You went through the restricted area at 4 different times of the day (on 15th September 2009) ? 4 different fine (infraction) numbers?
Naturally, if they’re the same, you should contact EMO (Nivi) and have them cancelled. Get it in writing!
Normal or registered post? Sometimes postmen don’t realize that it’s in fact Italian registered mail.
The informal notice (sent via normal post) is headed “ Notice of payment before notification”.
At this stage you can’t yet lodge an appeal.
The official fine (sent via registered mail) is headed “Violation of the Highway Code Notice” and must mention that you can appeal to the Prefect of … or the Justice of the Peace of … within 60 days …
These 2 fines are over the 360 day notification time limit (15th September 2009 –> 18th November 2010).
If these letters are “official notifications” (and even though you have not signed for them) I would appeal to the Prefect of Florence.
You can’t just ignore them if you want to follow the legal procedure.
If not, wait for the official registered notifications.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included), November 20, 2010 at 3:03 am comments.
BTW, you’ve already paid two fines, seems to me you’ve donated enough money to the municipality of Florence.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Very informative article.
I have just received a fine from a AutoVelux or mobile speed camera.
I presume this is the first notification but I am unable to check at present as it was delivered to my mother in law’s home yesterday, the 15th Dec, with the offence actually taking place on the 22nd Sept.
I would be interested in pursuing the option of testing the authorities patience
by taking them beyond a cut-off point i.e. demanding English translations, technical
specs of incident, camera details etc.
However, one thing which is different from all I’ve seen above is
that, even though I am a UK citizen, I am resident in Italy and the car is my own,
Italian bought and registered.
What would be the best tact here?
It’s a €50 fine but money is money and it is better off in my pocket.
Thanks,
Tom.
Hi Tom,
Your case is very different from all others. You’re an Italian resident!
Since August 13th 2010, the amount of time traffic fines have to be sent out to Italian residents has been reduced from 150 days to 90. (Law 29 July 2010, n. 120)
Italian residents usually receive one (and only one) notification sent via registered mail.
Your mother in law must have signed for the registered letter.
Demanding an English translation? For an Italian resident?
I’d suggest that you learn Italian pretty quickly or … get someone to translate the fine!
If you were Chinese, should the authorities send the fine in Chinese?
“Specs of incident, camera details etc.”? Italy has already had a big influence on you!
Possibly? But you’d have to hire an Italian lawyer to see if you can appeal on such grounds.
Even without a lawyer, appealing to the Justice of the Peace would cost you 38€. And you must attend the hearing or get someone to attend.
For 50€? (Speeding, up to 10 km/h over the limit)
You were notified in time. 22nd Sept –> 15th Dec –> 84 days < 90 days.
Even less! Because, for notification purposes, the relevant date is the fine sending date.
So, “the best tact” is to … pay!
Remember that you have 60 days (from the 15th Dec) to pay or the fine will roughly double.
“Testing the authorities patience” isn’t an option. Either you pay or appeal within 60 days.
Ultimately, it’s your decision naturally, and I should remind you that I’m not a lawyer.
But it’s simply not worth the hassle!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Yep, a fair cop I suppose.
Thanks, Al.
Tom.
Al, I would echo the appreciative comments of many others here. This is an excellent source of information which I recognise you are providing completely freely. You are obviously motivated by an inner sense of wrongdoing!
I can see from many of the posts that there is an expressed desire for someone belonging to a motoring organisation to take on the Italian legal system. I might be that someone. I am an EU resident and belong to the national motoring organisation. I have received notifications from a car rental company that they have passed on my details in connection with 3 infractions from June/July 2010 (2 speeding and 1 ZTL) in Tuscany. They have graciously included copies of the charges against me which has allowed me to begin to prepare for the inevitable official notifications. These details have now been passed on to lawyers at the motoring organisation who I hope will represent me. I have already collected sufficient photographic evidence to have one speeding ticket dismissed.
Since I fear there may be many more fines to come (and hence a whole load of deductions yet to be taken from my credit card for admin fees), and given the exceptionally long legal process, I will inform the car rental company that they have 2 options: 1) they can refund the admin fees immediately and refrain from deducting any more, or 2) the credit card deductions will be linked to a specified stock or commodity of my choosing such that when I am acquitted, the amount repayable will be according to the diffrence in the stock/commodity price between the date at which my credit card was charged and the date of acquital – naturally I could lose out but I expect a significant return.</