PLEASE READ THIS:
I would like to underline that I do not suggest or condone the non-payment of fines. If I did, I would probably end up in big trouble here in Italy, and seeing as I live, work and have family here, I would like to avoid such a situation. If, by chance, someone has read this post, the comments, and then decided not to pay, then do not blame me if you end up with problems as a result. Any and all advice I have provided to others has been and is provided informally – I am not an authority, and have not made any claim to be. For conclusive advice on the payment of traffic fines received as a result of a trip abroad, I recommend contacting motoring organisations, embassies or the police in your country of origin.
Sorry about the legalish stuff, but I thought covering my back may not be such a bad idea. You never know nowadays and this blog is public (Indeed, I have now been lucky enough to have been accused of being a scammer, I am not, but see the comments below and make up your own mind.) Now you can read this post… and wade through the 700+ comments!
Please read Section 1 BEFORE leaving a comment – thanks!
There are now three sections:
- Section 1 – the Important ‘need to know’ stuff – read this if you have received a notification of fine or a fine
- Section 2 – General background on the issue of receiving fines for driving offences committed in Italy – read this information if you wish to go the whole hog and pay a lawyer
- Section 3 – General background on the issue of receiving fines for driving offences committed in Italy
Don’t forget to read the most recent comments as they may well answer any questions you have – many of the questions are similar – Thanks.
Section 1 – the Important ‘need to know’ stuff
UPDATED 4 September 2010
Summary of How to Deal with Fines received while in Italy
I’ve been getting lots of email from people on the subject of fines, so instead of repeating myself many times over, here’s how I understand the situation – BUT I am not a lawyer.
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What happens:
- You receive a ‘notification of fine’ – the notice of payment before official notification – from a fine collection agency for some infraction or other which you allegedly committed while in Italy.
Your options:
- Pay the fine or fines at the time of the notification. No further action will be taken – but you are not obliged to pay.
- Wait until the actual fines arrive – usually a letter you have to sign for. The Official Notification must be sent by registered/ recorded deliver mail.
- Write to the agency which sent the notification in an attempt to carry out a form of ‘informal’ appeal. While the agency is not bound to do anything, and cannot cancel the fines, it can contact the municipality in which the infraction took place and bring further information, such as extenuating circumstances, to the municipality’s attention. This might cause the fine or fines to be cancelled or reduced.
What are the grounds for the ‘informal’ appeal?
- You have a blue invalid badge because either you have a registered disability or you were transporting someone with a registered disability. Even if you did not have the badge, but were transporting someone with a registered disability – the municipality might reduce the amount of, or cancel the fine or fines.
- You had a hotel booking made before you entered a limited traffic area with a hotel within a limited traffic or ZTL area of an Italian town or city. You would need to provide documentary proof of the booking – by producing a receipt showing for how long you stayed and when you checked out.
- Factual errors. Wrong car, or driver, wrong registration/licence plate.
If your ‘informal appeal’ did not work and you receive the actual fines. What then?
- You can pay. Payments from outside Italy can be effected via credit card or bank transfer. This perhaps the easiest way to bring the situation to a neat conclusion and is what the vast majority of people should really do – but read once more ‘What are the grounds for the ‘informal’ appeal?’ above.
The Formal Appeal
- You can register a formal appeal within 60 days of receiving the actual fine to either the prefect or the justice of the peace for the Italian city, town or area in which you allegedly committed the offence.
Now it becomes complicated, and, potentially, expensive. You do one or the other, not both.
Appeal to a Prefect
If you lodge an appeal with a prefect, which is easier, you may lose and be ordered to pay double the fine. This is the risk inherent in appealing. And appeals to Italian prefects are, I’m told, rarely successful. The fine collection agencies, from what I’ve seen, tend to advise people to appeal to prefects. In the main this is suggested because it is easier for foreign drivers to do, indeed, the EMO agency helpfully provides those who ask with all the necessary appeal documentation in English.
But, you can, if you like:
Appeal to a Justice of the Peace
If you appeal to a justice of the peace, you will have to make a payment of €38, and you really will need the services of an Italian lawyer to lodge an effective appeal.
The advantage of this option is that appeals to Italian justices of the peace are more likely to be successful – indeed, a good lawyer should be able to give you an idea as to whether an appeal is likely to succeed or not, before it goes to court. Italian justices of the peace do sometimes annul or reduce fines, but do not always double them. However, as lawyers the world over will confirm, judges can be unpredictable creatures, so the outcome of any appeal can never be 100% certain.
Should an appeal to a justice of the peace be unsuccessful, an appeal to a higher level court in Italy may be possible – but it will be very expensive, and time consuming. Legal fees alone are likely to exceed the amount of any fine.
Time limits
Note first, and as I mentioned at the start of this section, the time the Italian authorities have to send out fines is changing – but one crucial aspect is not – the statutory time limit – which is the length of time which passes before a case can no longer be perused under Italian law. This period is 5 years from the date of the offence was committed, as far as both Al, who has been reading up on this, and I am aware.
While ignoring these fines is an option, it is not an option I can recommend. Not paying may cause you problems if you return to Italy within 5 years or so of an alleged offence.
Other updates follow, but most of what you need to know is in Section 1. Section 2 below is merely supporting information which may or may not prove useful
With thanks to Al who has been throwing lots of information and documents at me recently – I hope I’ve managed to summarise the situation succinctly, and, more to the point, accurately. Remember though, I am not a lawyer.
Corrections received from reader Al – thanks, Al!
Prevention is often better than cure.
Some readers, iPhone users, for example, may be interested to hear that there is an iPhone application which can warn you of the presence of speed cameras – it’s called iSpeedCam Italy, and can be bought here for a couple of dollars: iSpeedCam Italy on Apple’s iTunes store.
For those who do not have iPhones, try Amazon.com or Amazon.co.uk for GPS speed camera detectors - but before you buy something, make sure it will work in Italy. Note that the older type ‘radar detectors’ are illegal in most European countries, and you will be fined if you are caught using one.
Section 2 – General background on the issue of receiving fines for driving offences committed in Italy
Revisions to Italy’s highway code have been approved by the Italian parliament – new law n.120, dated 29 July, 2010. Since August 13th 2010, the amount of time traffic fines have to be sent out to Italian residents has been reduced from 150 days to 90 days – Art. 201,1 – Notificazione delle violazioni (Notifcation of violations)
For foreign residents the 360 day period for sending out fines is unchanged.
Art. 201,1 – Notificazione delle violazioni.
Qualora la violazione non possa essere immediatamente contestata, il verbale, con gli estremi precisi e dettagliati della violazione e con la indicazione dei motivi che hanno reso impossibile la contestazione immediata, deve, entro novanta giorni (within 90 days) dall’accertamento, essere notificato all’effettivo trasgressore o, quando questi non sia stato identificato e si tratti di violazione commessa dal conducente di un veicolo a motore, munito di targa, ad uno dei soggetti indicati nell’art. 196, quale risulta dai pubblici registri alla data dell’accertamento.
Se si tratta di ciclomotore la notificazione deve essere fatta all’intestatario del contrassegno di identificazione.
Nel caso di accertamento della violazione nei confronti dell’intestatario del veicolo che abbia dichiarato il domicilio legale ai sensi dell’articolo 134, comma 1-bis, la notificazione del verbale e’ validamente eseguita quando sia stata effettuata presso il medesimo domicilio legale dichiarato dall’interessato.
Qualora l’effettivo trasgressore od altro dei soggetti obbligati sia identificato successivamente alla commissione della violazione la notificazione puo’ essere effettuata agli stessi entro novanta giorni dalla data in cui risultino dai pubblici registri o nell’archivio nazionale dei veicoli l’intestazione del veicolo e le altre indicazioni identificative degli interessati o comunque dalla data in cui la pubblica amministrazione e’ posta in grado di provvedere alla loro identificazione.
Per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento.
Quando la violazione sia stata contestata immediatamente al trasgressore, il verbale deve essere notificato ad uno dei soggetti individuati ai sensi dell’articolo 196 entro cento giorni dall’accertamento della violazione. (When you are ‘caught in the act’ – parking in the wrong place, for example or flagged down by a policeman, the fine must be served on the person who committed the offence within 100 days of the violation being committed)
The relevance the EC -v- Italian Republic case no C-224/00 as grounds for an appeal (case no C-224/00 is mentioned below) still stands, but as Al, who’s been kindly offering lots of advice to people leaving comments on this post has, rightly, pointed out, quoting such a lofty case is not likely to get anyone anywhere during an initial appeal. To stand any chance of using the C-224/oo argument successfully would mean taking the matter to higher level courts – read engaging the services of a lawyer – the cost of which is likely to be much, much higher than the level of the fines involved.
At the end of the day, the situation for foreign motorists who commit driving offences in Italy has not changed.
Alex Roe – end of September 4 revisions
UPDATE 17 February 2010 – please also see the 6th April 2010 Update below
Revised: 7 March 2010
Reader Peter has very kindly drawn my attention to the called EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00. The text of the case which is available in English and other European languages, can be seen here:
Judgment of the Court (Sixth Chamber) of 19 March 2002.
Commission of the European Communities v Italian Republic.
Failure by a Member State to fulfil its obligations – Article 6 of the EC Treaty (now, after amendment, Article 12 EC) – Difference in treatment of persons contravening the highway code according to the place of registration of their vehicle – Proportionality.
In essence, it does look as though the fines European Union citizens have been receiving are, and always have been invalid.
Again, I would reiterate that I am not a lawyer, so I cannot be sure, but I would repeat Peter’s suggestion that if you are a European Union resident and you have received a fine more than 210 days after an offence, you should write back quoting case no C-224/00, and saying you will write to MEPs etc about this. If this does not get the Italian authorities off your back – then speak to a lawyer (class actions are possible in Italy now -and I know a good firm of lawyers too!).
In summary – if you received a fine for any motoring offence after 210 days, and you are an EU citizen, you may be able to refuse to pay on the basis of C-224/00.
And here is a comment from reader Pablo, dated 7 March 2010, which other people may find interesting:
Many posts above complain about the Italian authorities’ delay in notifying traffic penalties and their insistence on communicating in Italian. Fear not – the law is on your side, as I think both issues contravene the European Convention on Human Rights, specifically Part I Article 6:
“1 – In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgement shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.
2 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
3 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.”
NOTE: This should not be confused with Article 6 of the EC Treaty referred to in Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update” at the top of this blog.
Key words/phrases italicised above are “within a reasonable time”, “presumed innocent”, “promptly”, “in a language which he understands”, “in detail” and “free … interpreter”.
You must be told promptly of an accusation – presumably so you can recall the circumstances of the incident and collect any evidence you need while memories are still fresh. It follows that if you were not told promptly, then you have obviously been denied the opportunity of “a fair & public hearing within a reasonable time”. Thus it seems the Italian law allowing up to a year to tell you about an accusation is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. As Mike, James & Peter have mentioned, a UK prosecuting authority must serve a Notice of Intended Prosecution within 2 weeks of an alleged traffic offence, and a penalty notice or court summons within 6 months. If the UK can do it, so could Italy – if it wanted to. You can form your own opinion of why Italian authorities delay sending a penalty notice for a year or more. My guess is it’s to reduce the likelihood of drivers remembering what happened or having kept car hire paperwork & hotel/restaurant/fuel/shopping receipts (to prove when & where you were) after such a long time. Depending on its timing and the extent of detail given, notification of a violation (such as an “amicable” EMO invitation to accept a fine) might satisfy the requirement to inform you promptly of an accusation. But the penalty notice sent by registered post is the important one, so if it arrives after 210 days you can reject it as denying you the option of a hearing “within a reasonable time”.
Regarding time limits, if you receive a penalty notice ask the car rental Co for a copy of documents showing when the police asked for the renter’s data and when they were given, so you can check whether the prescribed time scales were complied with and reject the penalty as out of time if they over-ran. If they claim they’re allowed 360 days remind them of European Court case C-224/00 (see Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update”). Although that case concerned disparity in the treatment of drivers depending on where their cars were registered, it reinforced the principle in ECHR Pt.1 Art.14 that laws must not discriminate between nationalities. Thus you can reject any liability on the basis that the 360-day rule discriminates against non-Italians, so is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable.
You can insist on being told of the accusation in your own language, despite what Italian authorities might prefer. Again, an Italian law allowing authorities to demand communication in Italian is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. It seems you are allowed 60 days from receiving a fine to pay up or appeal, so you could email or fax – in your own language – on the 59th day from receiving a penalty notice in Italian (or an incorrect own-language translation containing bad grammar or wrong spelling such as “Grait” Britain), saying you don’t understand it and ask for an accurate translation. Meanwhile the 210-day clock is still ticking, as the notice doesn’t count as served unless it’s “in a language which [you] understand”, and of course sent by registered post. If it contains any factual errors (name, time, date, location, car Reg.No, make, model etc) you can safely ignore it as it does not accurately describe the accusation and is thus unprovable – but don’t tell ‘em as they could re-issue a correct one within the 210-day period. The longer you spin out the arguments the more they would be likely to abandon the fine or run out of time. As Alex suggested, you could impose your own time-limit, such as “If I do not receive the information requested within 14 days I will assume you have (a) withdrawn all accusation/s, (b) cancelled all associated penalties & charges and (c) ceased all action/s”. With luck they won’t bother to provide a proper translation in time, or just give up. If they complain send them a copy of Article 6 – in English – with the relevant text highlighted (to be ultra-helpful you could also send the Italian version if you can find it).
Another thing: in earlier posts Alex (and the Bella-Toscana link) suggested that Italian law assumes you are guilty until proved innocent. That too is incompatible with the ECHR, under which – as in most western-style democracies – the accused is presumed innocent until proved guilty. Thus an authority has no right to collect a penalty unless the accusation has been proved. Just saying you were seen in such a place at such a time does not prove you were. A photo of your car – or its number plate, or the driver, or the road – proves nothing without context such as time, date, place, nature of infringement and applicable law – including evidence that adequate signage was in place and operative (the international symbol of a red ring on a white background with a pictogram and/or text specifying the restriction). A close-up snap of a number plate without any verifiable context might lead a suspiciously-minded person to wonder if there could be an element of fakery involved, but of course I can’t imagine who could possibly be so uncharitable… Find the road in Google maps – there might be a “street view” showing if there were proper signs, properly positioned and visible. You could make their life more difficult by asking for proof – in your own language – that the recording equipment has been properly maintained, calibrated and tested, as we can in the UK for camera-related allegations. If the authority can’t prove the camera was working properly, who’s to say it recorded the correct time & date when the photo was taken or if a restriction actually applied when it was taken? Ask for the make & model of equipment and copies of certificates etc (translated to your language) showing this particular device has been certified & approved for this particular use; does it have a good or bad reliability history? You can probably think of a string of other things to slow up the process which you can keep trotting out, one after the other, until they get bored. If they don’t like it or won’t co-operate, tough – the greedy, profiteering scumbags shouldn’t try to rip off foreign tourists with unverified accusations. I certainly wouldn’t even think of using the appeals procedure, for which you have to deposit twice the initial fine! If they try to pursue you for non-payment, you’ll probably have a whole bunch of unanswered technical questions as your defence. The bottom line is, they must prove their case if asked.
EU member nations are legally bound to ensure their laws comply with the ECHR. Therefore I believe the above applies to all nationalities driving in Italy, not only EU citizens. National laws that don’t comply with EU legislation can be challenged in the European Court, as Alex pointed out in his 17 Feb “Important Update”. Italian cities probably issue several million of these fines every year (the Bella-Toscana article said 859,959 in Florence alone in 2008). If even only 10% were challenged it would clog the fines system to the extent it would be unworkable – and might even persuade city authorities to review their policy of killing off the tourist trade.
For those concerned at the legality of the above strategies, I must stress that none of them contravene any valid regulations or laws. On the contrary, they rely on applying the appropriate laws, though not necessarily those the Italian authorities would like. These arguments are equally valid if your own national traffic authority tries to collect under some sort of reciprocity agreement.
Like you Alex, I’m not a lawyer, just an ordinary bloke who can read & think, and I’ve no idea if any of this has been tested in court. If not, who’s first …?
End of 17 February 2o1o and March 7 2010 Updates
Section 3 – General background on the issue of receiving fines for driving offences committed in Italy
Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy
I had a contact via this blog from some people (And I hope they don’t mind my mentioning this situation, but I do think it needs mentioning) who have, in a sense, come face to face with the black side of European unity, in that these people found an Italian speeding fine, written in Italian, lying on their English doormat after the postman had done his thing.
John Folkard, one of the many who have been caught out by the restricted traffic zone in Piza, posted something about the problem on the travel tips message boards of the UK newspaper the Daily Telegraph.
Check out my updates to this post, but please do try to read everything and the comments, yes, I know there are lots of them:
- SEE ALL PAGES FOR UPDATES and YET ANOTHER UPDATE, May 2007, for more info on Pisa, and
- look at One more update – 18/09/2007, for some potentially interesting info.
20th May 2007: SUGGESTION: If you wish, you can tell me where (Place, street, time, date) you got your fine and I will add it to the Platial Map system. I’d also like to post photos of the restricted traffic zone signs to help others avoid falling into the same trap.
Have a look at this more recent post: Speed Cameras in Italy
It will help you to know what you need to look out for and where the cameras are.
Although, regretfully, it may be too late for many who arrive here, I’ve also written a post entitled:
How to Avoid Fines while Staying in Italy
I’ll try to keep both posts up to date, so check back here from time to time.
Time Limits – this is confusing – Updated
Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE
A son of one of the victims, Al (not Alex Roe) who knows Italian, French and English, supplied me with some very interesting information on the subject of time limits.
Al states that the time limit for the sending out of notices to drivers who are not resident in Italy is 360 days from the date the offence was committed – not, as had been my previous interpretation, 360 days, plus the 60 days which is often used to ‘identify’ the driver of a hire/rental car.
Here is Al’s research (note that Al is not a lawyer – and like everything else here, his interpretations need to be verified) – which I’ve published in its entirety with only a few minor edits, because I, we, think it may help a few people:
Codice della strada http://www.aci.it/index.php?id=869
Art. 201. Notificazione delle violazioni
1. Qualora la violazione non possa essere immediatamente contestata, il verbale, con gli estremi precisi e dettagliati della violazione e con la indicazione dei motivi che hanno reso impossibile la contestazione immediata, deve, entro centocinquanta giorni dall’accertamento, essere notificato all’effettivo trasgressore o, quando questi non sia stato identificato e si tratti di violazione commessa dal conducente di un veicolo a motore, munito di targa, ad uno dei soggetti indicati nell’art. 196, quale risulta dai pubblici registri alla data dell’accertamento. Se si tratta di ciclomotore la notificazione deve essere fatta all’intestatario del contrassegno di identificazione. Qualora l’effettivo trasgressore o altro dei soggetti indicati sia identificato successivamente, la notificazione può essere effettuata agli stessi entro centocinquanta giorni dall’identificazione. Per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento.
As I, Al, see it you have two “notions”:
1 – “identificazione” which can be “applied” (if necessary) to the resident in Italy,
2 – “accertamento” which refers to the day you were ascertained, “controlled” (“checked”).
(For instance the day a ZTL traffic camera took a beautiful picture of your license plate).
In this case “accertamento” doesn’t mean ascertainment (checking) of your identity.
Al’s opinion matches that of the Aduc (Associazione per i Diritti degli Utenti e Consumatori) web site:
http://sosonline.aduc.it/scheda/multe+violazioni+al+codice+della+strada+verbale+sua_12880.php
LA NOTIFICA DEL VERBALE
Resident in Italy
E’ quindi chiaro che il giorno da cui partire col conteggio dei 150 giorni non e’ facile da stabilire perche’ puo’ variare da caso a caso, e non e’ pertanto possibile standardizzare ne’ le regole ne’ i possibili ricorsi riguardanti questo delicato punto.
Resident abroad
Il caso di residenti all’estero, invece, il verbale dev’essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Al’s translation: For the resident abroad, however, the fine must be notified within 360 days of the ascertainment / (police) control, calculated unambiguously from the date of the infraction.
Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court
Excerpt from Alex Roe’s post: “ My translation: Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court established that the 150 (360 days – for non-Italian residents) day period in situations in which the identification of the actual offender is subsequent to the moment in which the violation occurred shall run from the date the authority is able to identify such offender. “
Alex Roe should never have added : “(360 days – for non-Italian residents)” (I agree – I should not have added this – Alex Roe)
Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court established that a resident in Italy is ”identifiable” from the first day he’s registered at the DVLA. Not five months later when the police finally decided to inquire. “If you behave in such a way there’s no time limit anymore” said the Judge in essence.
Regarding Residents abroad in that same decision
“mentre per i residenti all’estero il legislatore fissa un termine di notificazione assolutamente insuperabile, sia pure determinandolo in un’ampia misura (più del doppio di quella prevista per i cittadini italiani), per questi ultimi invece il termine di centocinquanta giorni viene fatto decorrere dal momento in cui l’effettivo trasgressore o gli altri soggetti responsabili siano stati identificati successivamente”
“si consentirebbe una protrazione del termine, rimessa in ultima analisi alla discrezionalità dell’amministrazione, con un possibile slittamento perfino oltre l’ampio ma rigido termine previsto dalla stessa legge per la contestazione della violazione ai residenti all’estero”
While there is an ample 360 day time limit (for residents abroad) that from the onset (the date of the traffic violation) cannot increase : it’s 360 days (and that’s all folks!), not 361, 362, ……………..
On the contrary the time limit of 150 days (for Italian citizens subjected to the whims of their administration) could…………….”slide along”……………to the point that it could even go beyond ……… the ample but rigid time limit of 360 days for foreigners abroad.
To bring the matter of time limits to a close
Yes, I do agree with you: “Time Limits – this is confusing” (Thanks, Al – it confused me!)
An Italian Court can render a sensible decision. Too rare not to be appreciated.
There can be no doubt any more that 360 day time limit for residents abroad runs from the date of the offence, not later.
The EMO fine collection agency’s Misleading Information
On their web site (http://www.emo.nivi.it/) the collection agency EMO appears to mislead traffic offenders when they answer FAQ n°17 (http://www.emo.nivi.it/Faq.aspx) :
“According the Italian Traffic Code the police have 360 days after the date of the violation or identification of the owner of the vehicle within which to notify fines to foreigners. In the event of rented vehicles, the 360 days start as from the date of identification of the holder of the rental agreement at the time of the violation, or from the date of receipt of the personal data sent by the car rental company.”
Al spoke to someone at EMO and tried to explain the 360 day time limit but EMO would not listen.
EMO acts on behalf of the municipal police of more than 150 Italian local council areas.
The FAQ section of the EMO web site is in ten languages, but there are many mistakes, not only with spelling and grammatical mistakes, but also with fact. For example: The answer to FAQ n°16 in the French version states the opposite of what it should say: NO, you must absolutely not pay the fine after having received the Official Notification if you intend to lodge an appeal !
They must have availed themselves of Google or some other translation web site.
Not taking into account the matter of the 360 day time limit.
What bugs me is that I can’t seem to find out if EMO misleads foreign tourists deliberately or just out of sheer stupidity.
I would not exclude the second assumption !
Also this article: (attempt from Milan to recover fines in Ticino)
http://www.tio.ch/aa_pagine_comuni/articolo_interna.asp?idarticolo=449497&idsezione=1&idsito=1&idtipo=3
Excerpt: Errore che riguarderebbe i “termini di notifica all’estero (dall’Italia) delle violazioni del Codice della strada”.
In sostanza il Codice della strada dice che “per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento”. Secondo quanto ricostruito, molte delle multe notificate ai cittadini sarebbero avvenute oltre i 360 giorni necessari. “Le pretese zurighesi (e a monte milanesi) sono tardive” scrive il giornale, arrivando alla conclusione che “la C&S se ne infischia altamente della decorrenza dei termini”.
I responsabili della C&S Credit Management Ag di Küsnacht, contattati sulla questione e messi di fronte alla legge secondo la quale il termine ultimo di notifica è 360 giorni dopo l’accertamento dell’infrazione, hanno spiegato che per “accertamento” si intende dell’identità del possessore della targa, non dell’infrazione.
C&S Credit Management Ag di Küsnacht appear to adhere to the interpretation of the word “accertamento” as referring to the date that the driver’s identity has been established, not, the date of the infraction. This, in Al and the Italian Aduc consumers association, appears to be wrong.
To cut a long story short, foreign drivers who have received fine notifications beyond the 360 period can write and request that the fine, or fines, be annulled.
With great thanks to Al for all his research into this matter. Shortly, I will publish a letter which people can use to request that these pesky fines are officially torn up.
END of April 6th 2010 Update
This issue has been discussed on several forums:
- Here: Virtual Tourist
- And here: Trip Advisor
- Here, in another language: Euro Travel
- Life in Italy’s forum has also considered this issue: Life in Italy
If you come across any more, let me know.
About Alex Roe
Italy Chronicles Feed
Hi Stuart,
Yes, you could ignore the fine, but, as they say, ‘they know where you live’ and if the reciprocal agreement comes into force next year, you may find that a new and larger fine will appear on your doorstep, so, why don’t you try phoning the number I mentioned in this blog entry 0044 8702400009 – it’s the DVLA, and see what they can tell you. And please let me know how you get on so I can add something to the blog entry to help everyone else who gets into this slightly sticky situation.
Good luck.
Regards,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Not sure if you’re still helping victims of ‘restricted zone’ fines, but following a visit to Italy in August 2009, I’ve had 4 fines (each 105 euros), two of them 3 minutes apart! They refer to visits I made to apparently restricted areas in Florence and Arezzo – like everyone else on the website I had no idea I was breaking any rules.
I’ve emailed my MEP as the quickest one came to me 228 days after the offence and I cannot recall what I was doing on those days. I’ll see where I get to with that. But I wonder what is likely to happen to me (in your view) if I simply ignore these letters and do not go back to Italy within the next 2 years? I know you wouldn’t condone this and I want to do the decent thing, but these fines are so vast that paying them is an issue.
Any advice for me? Do we have any kind of reciprication deal between UK and Italy? If not and we get one will it be applied retrospectively?
thanks for any help you can offer me.
Hi GF,
One at a time:
“But I wonder what is likely to happen to me (in your view) if I simply ignore these letters and do not go back to Italy within the next 2 years?
I know you wouldn’t condone this and I want to do the decent thing, but these fines are so vast that paying them is an issue.
Any advice for me?”
- I don’t really know what will happen. As I think I’ve commented elsewhere, I doubt whether they will send an Italian cop to knock on your door. Your passport may be flagged, I suppose – but Italy is not very good at networking, – they are getting better. You may be detained at an airport. Personally, I think this is unlikely – but don’t blame me if you try to get into Italy and they come knocking on your hotel door! Or something like that.
“Do we have any kind of reciprication deal between UK and Italy?”
This is on the cards, but is not yet operational, although the Eucaris system https://www.eucaris.net/index.php may speed up the implementation of communication between EU countries on such issues.
“If not and we get one will it be applied retrospectively?”
Something may happen in 2013 when an EU directive on Driving Licences is due to be issued apparently. Although I don’t know, I would doubt that any new system would be retrospective – it’s going to be enough of a nightmare to make all those computer networks speak to one another without adding in the extra complexity of retrospection – and they’d have to get each and every EU member to agree on the same retrospective date too – this may not be simple!
Sorry if I have not been of much use.
Alex
As always, I recommend paying up – then at least you will not have to worry about ending up with some huge bill down the line for 20,000 quid! If you decide not to pay, then that is up to you.
One important fact that needs to be considered is that NIVI Credit does mnot have a collection license to collect these fines in the US. As such, NIVI is in violation iof US Federakl laws and can be prosecuted. The same may hold true in other countries such as England.
I received the initial notification from EMO, a NIVI Credit Division and asked in addition to all kinds of proofs, for their license to do business as a collector in the USA. Let’s see what they produce.
NIVI is also using the italian car rental companies (the US subsidiaries such as AVIS, HERTZ, etc) as their collection arm which is also illegal as those are Italien entities and the US counterparts could be braking the laws. The rental contract states the renter is the one that pays the fine.
There is room for a class action lawsuit which I am looking into and will let all interested parties know of my findings.
Val Serra
Hi Val,
The absence of a “collection license” on the part of the agencies collecting fine payments is an interesting point.
With this point, we are moving into the realms of international law, I suspect. This complicates matters and is something I know nothing about. Potentially, if such a license is required under US law, and you are saying that it is, then nobody in the US is obliged to pay these fines via the collection agencies – but this is something which needs legal clarification.
As I’ve mentioned before, it is possible that someone who returns to Italy and who has not paid a fine may receive a visit from the Italian police. However, Italian laws on time barring would come into play after a certain number of years – 7 years I think it is.
If someone is never planning on returning to Italy, and does not live in the European Community, then they may get away with ignoring these fines – unless some mutual arrangement is made between the US and Italy.
However, I do not condone the non-payment of legitimate fines, I am not a lawyer, and I recommend taking advice on these issues from someone who is legally qualified to offer such advice.
The licensing issue is interesting though, and I wonder what the US Department of State might have to say on this issue. Someone, and American citizen, needs to write to the Department of State to ask about this.
Best,
Alex
Hi
I just god excatly the same. 2 fines yesterday and another 3 today. The 3 fines where within 3 minutes. This must be a joke… This was only for the first 3 days of my holiday so im really curius what will come!!!!
Do you have any experience of handling this..? I cant afford paying all of them
I suggest you do what I did and see what happens.
I requested for EMO to provide proofs of business licenses as well as a collection license in your state to collect the funds. I also requested for camera maintenance certification, the photographs taken of my rental car, explicit definition of my alledge infraction, the actual street number where the infraction took place, proof of adequate signs with clear description of the restrictions. All, of these to be provided in English.
I sent this letter registered so that I can track the delivery. This is the least expensive way to send a secured letter as well as sending the letter via email. I gave them 15 days to provide the proof.
As a precaution I suggest you cancel your credit card used with your rental company. EMO will issue a charge for the amount of the fine(s) request through your rental company if you dom not pay the fine which I recommend youm do not pay it and in turn the rental company will add a fee which for what I have read can be uop to 25% iof the fine.
Next send a letter to your rental company and tell them you are handling this issue directly with EMO and the police and have requested proof of the violation and business licenses. Do state that they have no authority to charge your credit card as it does not constitute a purchase of goods and services.
Then wait for a response.
Val
Val: I, too, have had a similar circumstance to those posted here with 2 infractions of driving in a restricted zone in Florence that were almost one hour apart from one another, while trying to locate the car rental company to return the rental car! Interestingly, I received 2 notices of charges to my credit card from Hertz (all in Italian I might add) about 2 months after my return to the US. Each of these charges was for 30 EU. Then, almost one year from the time of the “infractions” , I received 2 “Notice of Payment” letters from the Florence police stating that I owe them 105.88 EU for each infraction (or a total of 211.76 EU). I already paid 60 EU through Hertz. Sounds like a bit of a scam to me, just like the Italian government. Any ideas on why, after paying 60 EU through Hertz, I’m now receiving additional charges?
I no longer have the credit card used at the time of my Italian visit & don’t have any future plans to return to Italy in the near future. And, I definitely will never rent a car in Italy again – what a hassle.
Hi Al,
What a nightmare, I have a situation I was in Rome with a hire car:
Date of offence 05/09/2008 driving in restricted area not aware of this.
Hire company informed police 05/02/2009.
I recieve by normal post penalty notification dated 18/06/2010 from Firenze -Italy to pay fine of 106.90 euro.
Reminder recieved 30/07/2010.
I have rang them and been informed that fine is out of 360 days no need to pay, I have emailed them 15 time and written to them by registed post, no answer, what a joke.
How long is this likely to go on.
Regards
Henry
Hi Henry,
If you’ve read this page (or at least part of it) you know that Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states clearly that the 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic violation.
EMO (situated in Florence, and acting officially on behalf of the Rome police and many other Italian Municipalities) purposely misleads foreign tourists when they claim shamelessly that the 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic offender’s “identification”.
The “penalty notice” dated 18/06/2010 is a “Notice of payment before notification”.
You are unofficially informed of the traffic violation perpetrated.
I presume that the “reminder” you received on 30/07/2010 was the official notification sent by registered mail. (and not a second unofficial notice sent by normal post)
You say that you rang EMO and “been informed that fine is out of 360 days, no need to pay”.
When did you call them? Before or after receiving the second notice?
At that moment Emo must have cancelled your fine because, even according to their (absolutely wrong) definition, your fine is invalid.
It was sent in July 2010, more than 360 days after your” identification” (5/02/1999).
I know for a fact that EMO has already cancelled fines which were sent over 360 days after identification.
So, it looks like you’re out of the woods!
But to make sure, I would call EMO again and ask them if my fine has really been cancelled.
And I would demand that they send immediately written confirmation by email!
Yeah! EMO has a deplorable tendency not to answer emails.
If, after this, the matter is still not resolved, you must dispute your fine and lodge an appeal to the Prefect of Rome within 60 days from the day of receipt of the official notification.
In your case before 28th of September (60 days from 30/07/2010).
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
Copy/paste the appeal template and send your registered letter with proof of receipt to:
Al Prefetto di Roma
Prefettura di Roma
via IV Novembre 119/A
00187 Roma
But I doubt that it would come to that, though you never know with EMO!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi
Is this still the same situation?
I have my official violation paperwork which is well after 360 days of the offence (time of infraction) but was dated (but not received until over 360 days) 357 days after the date of ascertainment – date of hire company telling them i assume.
Do i have any chance of getting off?
It seems legally based on comments that i might i.e. after 360 days of the infraction but if so how?
1. Will emo accept this if it conflicts with their guidance?
2. Appeal to prefect – has anyone any examples of success of such an appeal in this situation?
thanks
Hi David,
Contrary to what EMO claims, the date of ascertainment is ALWAYS the date of infraction.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) mentions the word “accertamento” 5 times, always in reference to the ascertainment of the traffic violation, NOT the ascertainment of the driver’s identity.
The date of identification (date at which the police receive the driver’s details from the hire company) can apply only to Italian residents.
Are you sure that you have received the official notice from EMO?
The official notice, sent via registered mail, is headed “Notification of Violation of the Highway Code” and is the only one which mentions that you can appeal to the Prefect or the Justice of the Peace within 60 days.
The unofficial notice (“Notice of payment before notification”) is sent via normal post.
For notification purposes, the relevant date is the fine sending date.
According to EMO’s misrepresentation of the law, your fine is legitimate.
The letter is dated 357 days after the date of identification, but was it sent within 360 days?
Check the time stamp on the envelope!
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
And (if possible) scroll down through the comments since May 2010.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
I have a notification from Budget rental car of €42.35 charge for them kindly passing my details to the police for a traffic offence. The offence is TIPO MULTA: RIC SUBL. Do you have any idea what this might be?
(I have actually received two such notices, different dates, same fine description.)
Hi Sandra,
No, I don’t.
Al
Stuart, I recevied the exact same thing today from the Municipal Police in Pisa for driving in a restricted zone and have to pay €110. How did you do it? We were lost and didn’t even know we were in a restricted zone thanks to those great italian road signs!.
Is this a scam?
I’ve had a request for Euro 99.4 for restricted zone (which we too didn’t notice) in Pisa and they want paying by bank transfer which will double the cost!
Bizarrely – I had just received a letter today from the Municipal Police in Pisa for driving in a restricted zone – same 110 Euro fine! I really didn’t see anything indicating that there was a fine-able zone anywhere. I rang the number on the form and a guy was able to tell me that I’d entered a resident-only area.
Sounds a bit of a scam, really… OK I can’t play the innocent abroad, but it wasn’t obvious. Clearly – if on the same thread there are another couple of people with exactly the same ‘offence’ with the same fine!
I got the same fine for two offenses in Rome. AVIS charged my c/c foe 40E each time for “providing information to the police”. Nothing I can do about that. However, being Canadian, I’m required to have an International Driver’s license to drive in Italy. Does that not by default mean that all traffic signs displayed in Italy must conform to International Traffic sign standards. These fines for “Driving in a limited traffic area without authorization”, as I could confirm through googlestreetview are displayed in Italian only; along with the “Varco Ativo / non ativo” electronic boards. My intention is to argue that “Italy has put me in danger” by displaying this information in Italian only.
Hi Jim,
Even the “Varco attivo / non attivo” electronic boards are not always clear to all Italians.
But didn’t you see this international traffic sign on Google Street View?
http://italychronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/restricted.jpg
The road sign with a white background surrounded by a red circle? No entry except…
Anyway, appealing to the Prefect/Justice of the Peace on such grounds won’t get you anywhere. And you’d have to appeal in Italian.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584) and scroll down through the last (2011) comments.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hello all
I too fell foul to this soft tax aimed at unsuspecting motorists. I got papped driving into a ZTL in Alghero, Sardinia in Oct 2010. My official notice / fine came through Jan 2012 – exceeding the 360 day time limit. emo’s response was that this 360 day time limit was from when the authorities had been notified by the car hire company. They advised me to appeal. I did, including sending a copy to the Italian tourism minister!!
I received a letter written in Italian, which I think translates into me being summonsed before a judge in June in Sardinia – talk about over reaction to a very minor traffic offence.
I have tried contacting various authorities, but none have helped. My question is: do the Italian authorities have any power in terms of enforcing payment whilst i reside in the UK or dare i say even extradition!!?? – What is likely to happen if i simply ignore any further correspondence?
Any advice that you could offer would be greatly appreciated.
Hi Scott,
If you ever receive the judge’s decision, do report back on this site!
You can safely ignore any “last reminder” from EMO or any letter you may receive from a British debt collection agency.
Read February 5, 2011 at 10:55 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30020).
Best,
Al
Thank you for yours and Kemiker’s advice. You have been more helpful than everywhere else i have turned.
I have written back to the “justice of the “peace” and informed them that they need to write to me in English firstly. I have also quoted regulation (EC) No 1393/2007, EU framework decision 2005/214/JHA and article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code. All noted down from your excellent blog(s)
Let’s hope that stops their pedantic behaviour.
I will also send copies to the Italian Ambassador in the UK and the UK Ambassador in Italy!!
If i can’t travel to Italy for the next 5 years of so, i can live with that. It’s just a shame that Italy feels the need to behave this way. I am sure it will put people off returning to such a beautiful part of the world.
Once again – thanks for your help
Scott
I have had a reply from SOLVIT at http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/index_en.htm, which concerns me, as it appears that Italy does have enforcement powers over UK residents when it comes to traffic violations in Italy
Here it is:
“Dear Sir/Madam,
Please find below the reply to your enquiry. Please note that the advice given by Your Europe Advice is an independent advice and cannot be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission, of any other EU institution or its staff nor will this advice be binding upon the European Commission, any other EU or national institution.
Dear Mr. Marsden,
Thank you for contacting the “Your Europe” Advice!
If you should decide to ignore any further correspondence with the Italian authorities, this may have as a consequence that the fine for traffic violation received in Italy becomes final. The Italian authorities would thus have a pecuniary (a financial credit) against you, and they may wish to enforce it. On this purpose, they can apply with the Italian judge to issue a sentence of enforcement; the judgment handed down in Italy could be enforced in UK where you live, or where you have your assets, so that to obtain the reimbursement of the credit.
Based on EU legislation there are different modalities to enforce in UK a judicial decision of payment issued in Italy:
1) As an example, at the European Union levels it finds application the European Small Claims Procedure, as established by Regulation (EC) No 861/2007, for cross-border claims of up to €2000: a judgment given under the European Small Claims Procedure in Italy is recognized and enforceable in another Member State (like UK) without the need for a declaration of enforceability and without any possibility of opposing its recognition. See for further details: https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_small_claims-42-EU-en.do?init=true
2) The European enforcement order for uncontested claims, as established by Regulation (EC) No 805/2004 of the European Parliament and the Council.
In order to certify a judicial decision as European enforcement order it is necessary a form: European enforcement order certificate – court settlement, it can be find on the EC website: http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/judicialatlascivil/html/rc_eeo_filling_it_en.htm?countrySession=5&
As soon as this certification is issued, it is sent to the executive authority from the Member state concerned (UK) where the debtor is resident or his goods are located.
The British national legislation will establish the modalities of execution of the European enforcement order. For further details, link: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0805:IT:NOT
3) The recognition and enforcement of the judicial decision based on the Council Regulation (EC) No 44/2001 of 22 December 2000 on jurisdiction and the recognition and enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters: a judgments given in Italy and enforceable there can be enforced in UK after being declared enforceable there on application by anybody who has an interest in the matter (exequatur). The modalities of applying for exequatur in UK are laid down by the British national legislation; anyway, as modalities of enforcement there are: bank account confiscation, or mobile goods confiscation, or immobile goods confiscation etc.
Some personal observations:
●You state that you lodged an appeal against the fine received in Italy for traffic violation; consequently is normal to be summoned by the Italian judge (“”Ufficio del Giudice Di Pace Di Alghero”) to produce your arguments for defence, so that the judge may issue the sentence. Therefore, we do not believe that the “Italian authorities are trying to make your life difficult and expensive”, but it seems to be simply the pursue of the appeal procedure (as you appealed against the traffic violation).
●In your enquiry you haven’t considered also the 4th option: simply to pay the fine; instead of paying a lawyer or travelling to Italy, paying the fine would probably result being the cheapest solution in your case.
●With regard the argumentation that you did not know that there was a restricted area and that no one informed you about that: we believe that, once that you decided to drive a car on the road in Italy, you are supposed to know of the rules governing traffic road there, including traffic signs (the restricted zones are indicated with a specific sign) and you have the responsibility to respect such rules. No other people (like the car hire company or hotel) had such obligation; it’s only the personal driver’s obligation to drive properly and respect the traffic road rules.
We hope this information may be useful to you. Should you need further information, please do not hesitate to contact our Service again!
Best regards,
Your Europe Advice
To submit another enquiry, please visit Your Europe Advice , but do not reply to this e-mail.
Yours sincerely,
Your Europe Advice”
Any advice on the above would be most welcome
thanks
Scott
To Peter – as you know we have already corresponded about this and, hopefully, gone some way towards sorting it out.
To Stu – It does sound as though you are yet another victim of the often confusing and downright complex Italian road signs. I don’t know Pisa, but it looks as though it has even more confusing and complex signs than usual. Not knowing the lingo does not help either, but there is not a lot anyone can do about this.
Add to the list two couples from California fined by mail 110,4 Euros for driving in a restricted zone. Okay. It was at night. We were lost. Had we been able to determine that there are restricted zones we would happily avoid them. My local banker cannot decipher what portion of “IT 04 X 06200 14021 000002257243″ is the account number. I will try to get clarification by Fax or email. It allows somebody to translate my question and translate a reply. I am thinking that Comune Di Pisa is not motivated to post their restricted zones too prominantly.
We had an absolutely wonderful experience in April. A beautiful place to visit.
Hmm. I’m considering going to Italy again at some point – though the experience has left me with a rather unpleasant taste! I really would *not* have gone into the charge zone if I’d have known, and had all this hassle! Lesson to learn that you run such risks if you don’t understand the language, but I’d argue that since we’ve all been EU members for a long time, signage which is a bit more graphical/multicultural/pan-euro-language-friendly should be used!
Thanks Alex for passing on the info though. I couldn’t get the website to work – I’m guessing there’s an ID somewhere in your link that stops it working. I’ll look through the pisa website though.
hey, traveling to Italy used to be fun BECAUSE YOU COULD drive on opposite direction in one way streets, drive on sidewalks, do crazy things, park in double and triple row. But the italians have complex of inferiority towards the germans or other rule-loving strict northern europeans and want to imitate them, and now the fun of driving in italy is over.
Well, Sherpes, I suppose that is one way of looking at Italy’s tightening up of the enforcement of traffic offences! I guess you will have to find other countries that are fun to drive in now.
I would quite like to know just how many Italians, as opposed to non-Italians actually pay these fines…. Although, a few years back a new system was introduced whereby if you did not pay a fine you ran the risk of having your car taken away from you. This would have certainly encouraged more people to pay up, I’m sure.
Stu M – sorry the enormous link would not, er, link. You could go to the Pisa council site and wander around until you come upon the right section, I suppose, but we are back to the old ‘knowing Italian’ thing. I imagine that at some point Pisa and many others will get round to providing English language and other language versions of their site on air. In the meantime though, these international fines are going to continue to cause headaches for some time to come, I feel.
I seem to have had the same experience as others. I was actually in Bologna, but the situation was the same – it was the first day of my holiday, I was getting used to the hire car and Italian roads, I got lost, and I didn’t notice the restricted zone.
All the documentation looks genuine and I can believe I did (unintentionally) commit the offence, but: It took 5 months for the fine to land on my doormat, and the fine is 80 euros but the hire car company have added a 60 euro admin charge. I am not happy about either of these things – does anyone know if I have grounds for complaint on these?
As regards paying, the hire car company kept my credit card details and apparantly I signed something at the time to say they could recover costs such as this after the event. However, I’ve spoken to my credit card company and they say they weren’t authorised to keep my details or take a payment at a later date. So far no payment has been taken but if anything is my credit card company will help me. Does anyone know anything about this?
Many thanks for your help, and good luck to others in the same situation,
Richard
Richard – sorry to hear you are yet another to have been caught out – at least this time it was not the infamous Pisa no traffic zone.
Anyway, the 60 Euro admin charge sounds a bit steep. Most of the fines I have seen have come via the local traffic police, whereas it sounds as though yours have been ‘dressed up’ a little by the hire company. This should not have been necessary – they should have taken enough info for you to have got the fine at your house, minus any extra admin charges, at least that seems to have been what usually happens – Bologna could be different though. Maybe the hire company have already settled the fine; in which case you should be required to refund them with the 80 Euros + 1 Euro or so that the local post office charges for processing things like this.
Alex – thanks for your response.
Yeah, if I end up paying the fine, it won’t be too hard to swallow, but I’m keen to avoid the admin charge. That said, I spoke to a friend who used to work for a hire car company and she said they have teams of people to deal with drivers’ fines and this is how they pay for them, so if I end up paying that maybe I won’t feel too bad.
I guess I’m feeling philosophical about it all now!
Very interesting.
I have received two of these Pisa letters with fines for driving where we shouldn’t have. Both were the same night when my wife and I were desperately trying to find a hotel and fell foul of this Pisa zone thing. The letters were by registered post and the fines totalled about 200 euros, which was more than the cost of the car hire.
My wife wrote back to the Pisa authorities appologising for our ignorance but saying we wouldn’t pay as we were totally unaware of the restrictions.
We are going to Rome on Sunday for a few days and will discover whether I am going to be arrested for non payment as the hirer of the car.
Nick,
What happened were you arrested? I received two notices and never received anything else. I am getting ready to go to Italy and I am terrified that I am going to get arrested or deported.
I never received any coorespondence via certified mail.
Does anyone have a phone number for EMO
Emo phone number is here, Denise: http://www.emo.nivi.it/Contatti.aspx
Alex
Nick,
I would not worry too much about being arrested. Although I imagine you’ll see this reply when you get back from Rome. However, if you book into a hotel again in Pisa, then you may possibly get a visit from the local police – but things move quite slowly here, so I would not lose too much sleep over this. There is more chance of you being visited by the police if you end up back in Pisa some five years down the line, but which time someone may have updated and cross referenced some database.
The Pisa thing is a little odd, as I understand it up here in Milan foreign cars can enter the city centre. It’s a sort of catch 22 situation down in Pisa possibly – you may be able to drive into the centre if you are booked into a hotel there, but obviously to get to a hotel and book it you may need to drive into the centre. You may be able to use the hotel booking as a way to get off one of the fines you got. You could have a go at writing to them – in English, which would only be right seeing as they send the things out in English.
Good luck,
Alex
Thanks Alex,
We have returned without being arrested!
On the night in question we were driving a hire-car and didn’t manage to find a hotel room in Pisa as there was a conference using all the rooms in the town – hence all the driving around. We ended up staying out by the coast in an ancient hotel with those tea-towel style towels! (Am I supposed to be drying the pots with these?)
The letters from Pisa each came with an attached registered postcard – presumably these should have been returned by Royal Mail as proof that we had received the letters? So if we hadn’t written a reply, our receipt of the letters would not have been known.
Ciao
Ciao Nick,
Glad to hear that you had no arresting experiences whilst over here!
As for the postcards, I’m not sure what you were supposed to have done with them. In any event, I doubt whether the Pisa authorities would go to the trouble of seeking an European arrest warrant just because a fine has not been paid – but you never know. With regard to your reply, honesty is the best policy, but……….!
All the best,
Alex
Interesting notes. I received 2 tickets from pisa (2 weeks apart) for restricted zone violations that were 7 minutes apart! The violation happened in June 2006! I had no idea what I did wrong while vacationing there. I did get a notice from hertz a couple months ago indicating the Pisa authorities requested operator info on the car I drove…. that cost 18 Euro for each notice. i argued with Hertz, that an 18 Euro Administrative charge from them was steep — but 2 charges for the same info for a violation 7 minutes apart is ridiculous… Hertz refunded oneo the charges…
I still don’t know wheteher to pay…certainly not 2 99.4 euro fines!
I guess I won’t be returning to Pisa again!
Steve
We went to Pisa in November last year. Hired a car from Hertz and guess what we have received this morning. Yes a notification from Hertz that we have committed a traffic offense whilst in Pisa and a charge of 18 Euros. We don’t yet know what the offense is and cant remember doing anything wrong. Indeed as a mature couple we go out of our way not to cause offense and to respect other countries laws Looking at others experiences it seems we can expect to receive a fine in excess of 100 Euros. Who knows, we might even have unknowingly committed this offence twice! We had arrived in Italy just two hours before and had the hire car for one hour. When I think of all the money we spent contributing to the Italian economy and supporting their tourist industry and how we came home vowing to return to relive what we thought was a wonderful holiday we are absolutely furious and will never return. We will pay the fine somehow but Italy will get no more money from us. Tourist in Pisa are sitting ducks! Going to cancel our Italian lessons at the local night school to help pay for the fine. Also looked on Trip adviser site and no mention of this nasty trick on there so maybe it should be posted on there also to warn other tourist how they can unwittingly fall fowl of the law. It might be legal but it is a scam to take money from unsuspecting tourist. I wonder just how much money the Pisa authorities are making from this. I dearly hope that they will be investigated by someone with some clout to let the whole of Europe know what they are doing.
More and more people seem to be being caught out by this Pisa thing. Write to your local MEP time, maybe? It does sound as though this needs to be looked into.
Alex
Hi Alex,
Have Emailed MEP. I will let you know if anything happens. If it gets looked into it might just mean better signposts, but at least it will help others not to fall into what seams a very unfair trap.
Well done and thanks Janet. Let’s hope this thing gets sorted out and soon. Summer is almost upon us, so many will be heading for Pisa….and ending up with a little ‘souvenir’ that they had not expected….
Same story,I have just received in New Zealand a registered notice of a 110.4 euro fine this time in May last year having arrived in Pisa at midnight, stayed in prebooked Hotel then driven to Florence in the morning.
The time of the alleged offence “Circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation” must have been after leaving the Hotel and finding the way to the motorway. No signs or any other way of knowing we had done wrong. Again we had a Hertz car and Hertz had deducted 18 euro’s from our credit card “to cover costs of supplying details to to the relevant authority” It is very easy to believe that someone in Hertz is in cahoots with the independant collection agency sepi-pisa to send out dodgy fines and split the proceeds. Best advice seems to avoid both Pisa and Hertz like the plague. Pity-Pisa is a lovely town (if you can take your eyes off the road) and Hertz supplied us with a brand new Mercedes, but the fines totalled more than the hire! someone is making a profit here I think.
I have e-mailed the only address which is the sepi-pisa one suggesting it is a scam and requesting proof that the offence and fine are genuine. Then I found your dialogue on the net and realised I am not alone!
Let’s hope Janet’s letter to her MEP gets some results. If this is a fiddle, then it is being orchestrated on a large scale. Nice way of filling local council coffers and making the signs difficult to see means that the income stream is just about guaranteed. Not that I am saying this is the case, but all these cases here do start to make you wonder. Wandering into Pisa by car does not seem to be a fine thing to do.
Hello,
Same story here.
Just received two fines from european municipality outsorcing. Fines were driving in a restricted zone in Arezzo (not Pisa), fines were made on 19:25 and 19:33 . So they were only 8 minutes apart ??? No I have to pay € 202. Does someone has any idea wether these are genuine, or has any clarification of some sort? Sanne from Belgium
Sanne – if you want to hop over to my Englishisin site, you can use the messaging system to send me a mail. I have some scans of the genuine articles so I could compare them for you if you like.
Alex
hi scras
I have had exactly the same problem with two fines from EMO on behalf Commune di Arezzo arriving today – again both 8 minutes apart – 19.04 and 19.12 in august last year- same total 202 euros – in a hire car from Hertz. This is either an illegal scam or a creative way of balancing local authority finances. I saw no signs and have driven in this area of arezzo many times over the last 20 years. I love Italy, particularily Arezzo and the surrounding area, but feel so angry that I would consider a new destination for future holidays.
Jane from London
Nadine,
I can wholly sympathise with your momentary lapse. It is very easy to get caught up in the flow of Italian traffic and if you hesitate for a nano second, you will be beeped at. This pressure means that it is inevitable that wrong turns are made and you end up where you did not intend to be.
It will be interesting to see if a fine arrives – but it does depend upon whether you passed one of the cameras. You may be lucky, but maybe not.
The congestion charge system would probably be an answer, but so far, such a system has yet to be adopted here, as far as I know.
Wait and see time, in your case, I’m afraid – as you know.
Please let me know if a fine does drop through your letter box.
Alex
We have just received notification of two parking offences in Pisa which we had made in October of last year. We paid for parking and we were totally unaware that we were in a restricted zone. We were informed by our car leasing company that they had paid the fine and that they had deducted the amount from our credit card which we had used to pay for the car. The letter was dated in April. On checking it appears that the fine has not yet been paid.
Eileen – this double fine thing is a little odd – if you read above, another commenter – Howard is in a similar situation – though not regarding Pisa.
Are you sure the hire company has actually paid the fines and not just charged an ‘admin’ fee for processing them? If you look at your credit card statement and you find two amounts for around 18 Euros, then I think this refers to the processing fees, not payment of the fines. This may explain why the fines have not yet been settled. As some point you should receive formal notification from the Pisa authorities re the actual fines.
Hope that helps.
All the best,
Alex
PS Suggestion: Could someone try contacting Tom Tom or any of the other sat nav providers and asking them to add the Pisa restricted traffic zone to their maps?
Hi there, I just wanted to conclude on my comment of 3rd May 2007 whether EMO is a legal entity or the fine that tey had submitted was a refined fraud; with the assistance of the Danish consumer organization, which is gov´t sponsored, it unfortunately (since I now have to pay) turns out that EMO are for real. In fact I already did the payment online by credit card – just as easy as when buying anything else on the web. All the best.
Hi Morten.
Many thanks for having independently checked out the EMO set-up. Although my own investigations meant that I had reached the same conclusion regarding EMO, it is good to hear a second opinion which confirms what I believed.
This will be useful info for all those who happen upon this blog entry.
Alex
A further update: after querying things with Hertz, they agreed to refund the two 18-Euro administration charges “as a gesture of goodwill”. Very pleased with this outcome! Thanks again to contributors to this page, very useful to have this extra info.
To clarify – the 18-Euro Hertz charges were added as an admin fee by Hertz Italy, following a request from the Italian authorities to Hertz Italy about who was renting the car in question. We have not yet had any direct correspondence from Italy about the traffic fines themselves.
We queried Hertz about this, and asked if we should expect a letter from Italy for the traffic fines to be paid. Interestingly, they said this might not happen. Was surprised by this!
So – haven’t (yet) been asked to pay any traffic fines yet, and had the associated Hertz admin charges refunded. Just shows it’s worth chasing the rental company.
Howard
Thanks for the update Howard – good news about the Hertz admin fees! Let’s hope those fines really don’t turn up.
“We queried Hertz about this, and asked if we should expect a letter from Italy for the traffic fines to be paid. Interestingly, they said this might not happen. Was surprised by this!”
I wonder if someone from the Italian authorities has been reading this entry in my blog…..! Hope someone from Pisa council finds his or her way here.
Blogger (and commenter) power??
All the best,
Alex
PS I’m going to get hold of that Make A Jazz Noise Here Frank Zappa album that you love – I love guitar, especially electric and electro acoustic stuff. One of these days I’ll get round to getting another geetar and trying to learn to play it! (I think my hands are too dinky) I’d love an Ovation electro acoustic model, and when funds permit…..I’ll get one and shave down the neck!! In which case I shall be back to your site which is full of very useful info. I’m glad you dropped in here!! Cheers!
My spouse was in Italy in June of 2006 and we too received the $18 Hertz charge and the SAME exact wording and numbers for the bank as others posted on here for “circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorization”…. Seems a bit odd that all infractions appear around the same time frame, with EXACT wording and bank numbers. We are from the US- not sure where others were from that posted here…
The item that I’m stuck on is, if the bank numbers are exactly the same on all of these “transactions/offenses”, then how in the world would Comune di Pisa know if it was my spouse that paid and not someone else???
I was relieved to see your postings on this matter! Thank you!!!!
I’m trying to fill out that form mentioned above from e.pisa.it and cannot find a “tax identification number” anywhere on the offense letter…??? what is this number? thanks!
Hi Kelly,
I think you can leave the Tax Identification number blank, because you don’t have one. I think this refers to the Italian Codice Fiscale – Fiscal Code which everyone who lives or works here legally gets. I shall have a look at the form and check that what I’ve said is accurate. I’ll post again here if it is not.
All the best,
Alex
What you say is very true Karin – foreign drivers are easy targets – they pay up and shut up. Whereas Italians, in the main, neither pay up nor shut up. This is why one of those MEP gods should be looking into this issue.
Regards,
Alex
Same boat here. I got this letter from Hertz today telling me that 18€ charged my credit card for giving information to the “Nessesary authorities”. It is commented with Offence: “Verbale fine on lane”. My belief up to this date was that if you violate anny law in Italy the police will take direct contact with you. Because of this was not true I thought it was a scam so I called the credit card company to block my credit card. I was in Milan in the beginning of April and now after 5 months they start messing with this offence that I don’t know wath is. I live in Norway and we are not a member of the EU. If I recieve this Fine my plan is to ask for Evidence, If evidence is not given to me I will go to the Police here in Norway and report it as a Freud. I will simply claim that this offence never happend. Than the norwegian laws is like this: Companies that are making people pay by force can not take this case because than they will lose their authorisation if they participate in Freud. However I am not sure if the Italians have anny agreement with Norway to get theese money by force annyway. And after this I rather go to Spain next time.
I have received notification of a speeding fine from Pisa.
The date of the offence is October 06, it is now September 07.
The document is very kindly translated into English.
According to the document, I am the owner of the car in question (whereas I hired the car).
The document gives an account number into which the fine (57 Euros) is to be paid
Oh, it cost the person sending it 4 Euros.
So is it genuine?
If I pay an amount into the numbered account given, how do the police know it is from me? I could have it paid from an account not in my name. The only way they could tell that I had paid fine is if there was an account opened for my fine only – and nothing else. Do you think the Pisa police have an opened a separate bank account for everyone to whom they issue a fine?
However, I am not going to just ignore it. Clearly someone has passed my hire car details (from Pisa) on to these scammers. What other information do they have on me?
If someone were to rob a shop of £100, people would quite rightly expect the perpetrator to be arrested. If someone sets up a bogus bank account to collect money from people they have scammed, I would expect the police to ask; who owns the account, checkout who has paid money into the account and why, and arrest those concerned. But sadly the police have better things to do (catch motorists on speed cameras).
I expect the scammers to respond to this message – explaining that the fine is genuine and how the police can trace that my fine has been paid.
There are other faults with the document – but I don’t want to give the scammers too much information – anyway, why should they bother to improve the fake speeding notice, if so many are falling for it.
Mike.
Mike, I’ll email you about this.
Alex
Alex
I’ve just received aletter from Europcar charging 36 euros for administration. Attached were two letters from the Rome Polizia Municipale to Europcar, alleging my hire car went into restriced traffic zones on the 4th & 5th May 2006!
We were there on hols on those dates with a Europcar hire car, but after all this time – should I pay the police?
The document says the fine should be paid within 60 days!! or else it escalates to 275 euros. So I guess I would be charged 275 for each offence if I paid now, although of course – like others- I was unaware that I’d gone into these ‘restricted zones’.
Should I wait for something to come to me direct from the Police?
Is the offence now ‘out of date’?
Alan
Hi Alan,
Sorry to hear about your fine, but you raise an interesting issue. That is, should you pay the original fine or the 275 Euros, times 2? A very good question, but seeing as you did not receive the notification until recently, the 60 days should run from the date of receipt not the date of offence. However, i do not know the rules on this. I’ll give the police a ring tomorrow and ask them. Then I’ll post back here.
Alas, the fine is not out of date. Info on the State Police Site mentions 5 years before the fine becomes expires.
Alex
Alex seems very keen on promoting the fact that these fines are genuine – he says he will e-mail me re my comments above (I await his e-mail with interest).
Does Alex have my e-mail address?
Imagine if the police in your home country, wrote to you advising of a motoring offence and gave details of a bank account into which to pay the fine. They provided no reference number to allow traceability of payment.
Either such a scheme is a scam or the police have no way of determining who has paid their fine.
Take my ‘fine’ of 57 euros, let us say, my uncle in the USA pays the fine on my behalf – how the hell do the police in Pisa know my fine has been paid (unless they have set up an account for my fine only)?
Alex is going to expalin this one!!!!!
I suspect the poilce might be interested in Alex’s e-mail and postal address as part of their investigation into this scam.
Mike,
Oh dear, looks as though I might get myself in hot water over this. Let me say that I am not at all ‘keen’ on promoting the fact that these fines are genuine, and I would be quite happy for the police to have my email address etc, then at least I would know something is being done about this and so I too could establish whether these fines are in actual fact genuine and then let people know.
What I try to do, when I have the time, is ringing someone, mentioning the offence number and waiting for them to give me the car registration plate details and model – it is not an exhaustive check, I know, but it is all I can really do to check these things out. Sorry, if it is not enough. If someone can suggest a better way, then I’d be happy to hear it and publish it on this site.
I am neither an investigator, lawyer or a member of any police force, and I have tried to point out that I really am no expert on this. I don’t think I have ever made myself out to be one, and I do try to encourage others to check with the authorities in their own countries. What I can do, if you want, is contact the authorities here, but I maybe just making this all up and taking my cut – which could be the case – and if you believe this, and if I offer some assistance, you can simply say no. This would be understandable.
Maybe I should stop trying to help, and hope that, as I have mentioned on more than one occasion, someone contacts an MEP, or speaks to a lawyer in their own country.
As for your email address, I am assuming that the one you left is genuine. If not, and I would not be too surprised if it is not, after all, you do not know me from Adam, which means you have every right to be suspicious.
As for the case of your uncle paying the fine on your behalf, as long as someone pays the money into the bank account which the Pisa police use, and quote the correct reference number, then the matter is closed. It does not matter who pays, so much as if the amount is settled. At least this means that the next time you come to Italy and go to Pisa, nobody will come knocking on your hotel room door (although the chances of this happening are slim) asking you to pay a fine.
If you do want to give the US or UK police my email, then please do by all means. If they think I can help, or wish to check that I am not in the scam, that’s fine by me. Got nothing to hide.
I suppose I should have expected a comment like this at some point. Oh well, trying to help probably was not a good idea. Sorry. I shall have a think about how to proceed in the future.
Kind regards,
Alex
Mike, I have sent a mail to the address you left.
Alex
Alex
Can you pay these fines using a VISA card by giving it’s number to the local police over the phone?
Alan
I have returned to this Blog often to get some updates. In my first post several days ago I told that I received a letter from Hertz where I was charged the 18€ administration fee. I thought it was a scam so I blocked my credit card. I found this blog and had a lot of interesting reading before I called the car rental company (Hertz). This blog made me realize that my Fine can be real. However I have still not got the Fine it selves.
Before I called Hertz I did some “homework” where I prepared my selves what to say (thanks to this blogg!!!).
Than I called them: (This is a bit simplified, but gives you an idea about my feedback to Hertz)
First I told them that charging my CC after 5 months initially made me think about a scam, than I blocked my CC.
Than I told them that I had investigated this my selves. And for my case this fine probably was real.
I than told them that these Italian Fine’s is a problem for tourists in rental cars especially. And here I made a point of that people are being so confused about this that there exists blogs on the internet where this is being discussed and Hertz is mentioned explicit. (I said “blogs” but so far I only know about this blog). I pointed out that “People” are discussing whether these fines are real when the rental companies are charging their customers for administration fee anyway. And I ended my “speech” with: Due to my observations there is a growing opinion among people in the blogs that the combination of Hertz** in Pisa or Milano is to be avoided. Because some people doubt the realness of the Fines. And people are thinking that the car rental companies are cooperating with the authorities in squeezing the tourists for money.
** Since I was talking to Hertz i gave all the pepper to them. But I realise that other companies also are mentioned. I did not give the link or address to this blog. My basic Idea with the feedback was to make them understand that “if you f**k the tourists they will f**k you” and the Fine’s is a real problem that put their name into shame because when Italians drive like they are late for their own funeral, well-driving tourists are bugged with Fines for being in a restricted area.
The Customer Service did actually thank me for the feedback and called my speech “interesting”.
Thanks for this Blogg Alex!!
Asbjorn – First, thanks for your thanks. Second, thanks for drawing Hertz’s attention to this little problem. Let’s hope it starts an internal investigation, and that Hertz at least manage to establish that nothing untoward is going on with regard to its operations. If it is, and I not for one moment saying that it is, then Hertz brand image could end up being dented. I do hope Hertz’s customer service sits up and takes notice, and just does not sit on this issue and file it away as being a minor complaint.
It’s a shame that no newspapers are looking into this, too.
Incidentally, I know of three or so forums where this issue has come up and two have linked to this post, so at least people are becoming aware that this is going on.
Watch this space time, I feel.
Thanks again, Asbjorn.
Kind regards,
Alex
Ciao,
I used my friends car when I was visiting in Italy. Now she has got a speeding ticket by mail. Propably they have had some camera/radar contorl in a highway where I drove too fast. I’d like to know if the speeding fine is for a owner of the car in this situation. Should it belong to the driver of the car. Will she get some nasty consequences if she doesn’t pay the fine.
Respect,
-Arthuro
Arthuro,
First, I am not an expert, so please have what I say checked.
Now, check that the fine is actually for a speeding offence and not some minor infraction that will not lead to points being deducted from an Italian driving licence.
If the fine is for speeding, then, as I understand it, under Italian law your Italian friend is obliged to pass your details, driving licence, address, etc to whoever issued the fine within 60 days of the notification of the offence. See, in Italian, here
Otherwise, your friend had better pay the fine or she may face another fine of between 250 and 1000 Euros. If your fine concerns an offence which leads to the deduction of points from an Italian driving licence, and your friend pays, she will lose some of the 20 points that each Italian driver has on his or her licence. Lose all twenty and the driver concerned will be required to re-take the Italian driving test. This is something to keep in mind. So, the fine, in answer to your question, applies to the driver of the car, not the owner, at the time of the offence.
If your friend does not pay the fine, the amount will increase and things will become more complicated for her. So get her to pass your details to the fine issuers, if there is still time.
Hope that helps, but do check what I have said.
Kind regards,
Alex
Arthuro,
One other thing, if the fine is for something that will not cause points to be deducted from your friend’s licence, then you could ask her to pay it and then send her the money. In this case, the fine will be settled and the matter should go no further.
But, please get a second opinion on this. Sorry to be such a bore about this, but I feel that I need to cover my back in case someone accuses me of giving them the wrong info and they end up getting in trouble as a result of following my informal advice. Or worse, I end up being labelled as a scammer.
Thanks for reading.
To all readers:
Maybe someone else here could either confirm or otherwise that what I have been saying is accurate or not. I would have no problem at all with being corrected, in fact I would welcome it – then at least everyone will have something concrete to go on.
Cheers to one and all,
Alex
Thanks Alex! For using a lot of time on answering people in this blog. I have seen that there have been posts where people have started to doubt your intensions. I have spendt some time in reading most of the postings here and I have to say clearly: Not at any time have any of your posts or comments made me doubt your intensions. For me it is clear that you are not a scamer. I just wanted to write wath I think, and probably most of everyone else in here also thinks. Thanks for beeing honest, but I think it should not be nessesary for you to point out that you are “not an expert” all the time. The people comming to this blog should simply take their time to read the blog before they start to mean anything about the intensions behind the blog, and the answer will come by it selves. I just want to give you clear support on this issue.
Thanks,
Asbjorn
I have also recently received notification of a traffic violation (driving in a restricted zone) in July 06. Europcar had deducted an €18 admin fee from my credit card, and has sent me a copy of page 1 of the polizia municipale document. This mentions the €68 fine, 60 days to pay, and the higher fine of €275. However I found a statement on the web that the time limit for notification of the fine is 150 days. When I raised this with Europcar in Rome, they said that the police have 150 days to notify the owner – the car rental company, who then have 60 days to reply to the police with the renter’s details, and the police have then a further 150 days to contact the renter directly, making a total of 360 days for the violation to be valid. I have yet to receive anything formal from the police, and I am now outside the 360 day period. So I wonder if I am now in the clear, or should I pay?
Asbjorn – thanks once again for being so supportive. I don’t expect any thanks for trying to help out a little, but when I am thanked, it is greatly appreciated. So, cheers once again! I think I will continue to point out that I am not an expert – although I do feel a bit silly doing it – this is only a little blog after all!
Sean – OK, I’ve had a look into this time limits thing a bit more and from what I can make out from the Italian Automobile Club site here:
http://www.aci.it/index.php?id=427
There is indeed, as you say, a time limit of 150 days for the notification of the fine, if the individual committing the violation is resident in Italy. This limit extends to 360 days for individuals committing violations who are not resident in Italy, however, both these time limits run from as soon as the actual offender has been identified:
In Italian: La Corte Costituzionale, con sentenza 198/1996, ha stabilito che il termine dei 150 giorni, nel caso in cui l’identificazione dell’effettivo trasgressore avvenga successivamente rispetto al momento in cui la violazione è stata commessa, decorre dalla data in cui l’autorità è in grado di identificarlo.
My translation: Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court established that the 150 (360) day period in situations in which the identification of the actual offender is subsequent to the moment in which the violation occurred shall run from the date the authority is able to identify such offender.
So, in your case, it appears that the 360 days starts running from as soon as the police have been advised by the car rental company who you are, so this means presumably that the police must send you a fine within this 360 day period, otherwise it is no longer valid.
My understanding is that you now need to know when the rental company got round to telling the police who you are and then add 360 days so you can check by when the police should send you this fine. For the moment, seeing as you personally have not yet received any notification from the police, you may get away with this.
Let’s hope nothing drops through the letter box. Please have my translation checked out – sorry, but I’m going to point out that I am not an expert on this subject yet again.
Hope that helps,
Kind regards,
Alex
PS I shall add the info about the time limits thing to my main post.
Many thanks Alex.
Your translation is perfect, as far as I can see. It looks like I had better pay up before the fine increases to €275.
No worries Sean. Glad to have been of help.
Rhonda – Many thanks for the info regarding telling the authorities that you are staying in a hotel within a restricted traffic area. Very useful, and I shall be adding it to the main post, way above here!
Cheers,
Alex
Luis,
Thanks for the thanks! Always appreciated.
As to what you should do, well, I would say move house – sorry! Only joking. I guess that you will just have to wait until the actual fine arrives, although from the experiences of others it is not altogether clear when the fine will get to you. However, on the basis that Hertz have charged you the admin fee, then this should mean that the police now know who you are. In which case, the fine could arrive at any time.
Keep an eye out for a registered letter from Italy, unless of course you happen to get lots of registered letters from here!
All the best,
Alex
Alex, Thank you for your support and also, thank you for removing my email address, I didn’t think about spam until after I had sent.
Regards.
Rhonda.
Today I also got the surprise carryover from the holiday that everyone else has. However, unlike most, I got not one, not two, but THREE of them all from a TWELVE minute period in May.
Apparently in driving to the hard to find hotel in Florence, I managed to hit three of the limited traffic areas and they’re very keen to talk to me about e300 in fines.
I’m going to try to get info and plot where the roads are compared to the hotel to see whether this is valid but really, no matter how genuine the offences are, some leaway needs to be given to tourists at times providing they’re not driving dangerously.
Hi Max,
Sorry to hear about three fines – I think that must be some kind of record here, and all in a twelve minute period.
I certainly agree with you regarding the leeway, but the cameras are rather impersonal, however, if you read Rhonda’s comment above, you will not that if you have pre-booked a hotel within a restricted traffic area you should tell the hotel staff, who should, in turn, advise the local police – will then exclude your car if it ends up being photographed.
I have not looked into this, so I am not sure which cities operate this exclusion idea (which seems reasonable). When I have a spare moment, I’ll try to find more information about this.
Kind regards,
Alex
same fine but from sardignia (travel in october 2006).
I have a look and it permit to find a private society employed by italian police to recover money in all europe.
European municipality outsourcing belong to NIVICREDIT SRL (www.nivi.it).
It seems to be legal … but I m sure that in France the french police come to you ordered by nivicredit to make you pay after the 60 days …It happens to a friend of mine with a fine caught in Pisa.
For myself wait and see …
I just hope to be helpful …
best regards
Stephane
Hi Stephane
Thanks for dropping in and telling us about your situation – everything helps.
Re the use of a private company to collect fine payments, this appears to be quite a common form of outsourcing in Italy, even if it must make people worry about the legitimacy of the fine.
The nivi site looks OK, but it is easy to make a site look OK.
Can you tell us some more about your friend in Pisa? Was he/she caught in Pisa? Did the Italian police come and collect the fine? Or is your friend French, and so did the French police go to his/her house to ask him/her to pay the fine he/she got in Pisa?
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi and thanks for this great blog !
I’m in the same case as Rhonda, possibly caught by a cam in Firenze. Like Rhonda, too, I’ve received a letter from EMO for 92,5 euros. After having a look at the website, it seems pretty fake, a student could have made it !
), and 3 days later I’ve an automatic answer telling me (in italian), that my mail as been forwarded to the competent officer ..
So I emailed the Police Municipality of Firenze (direz.pol.municipale@comune.fi.it) to have a confirmation. First, I have written in english, but after 3 days, no answer … So I have written in french (cause I’m French
Now I’m waiting for an answer …
Best regards,
Johan
PS : forgive me for my english, no problem for reading … but for writing it’s a little bit hard
Well, I have some news back from Florence, Italy.
Email received back from infoemo@nivi.it Which is the email address on the fine.
Dear Mr xxxxxx,
the Hotel Il Granduca where you were staying on the 28 and 29 May 2007 is outside the limited traffic area (ZTL) of Florence, so it wasn’t necessary to enter this area to get to the hotel.
For this reason Municipal Police won’t cancel your fine.
For any further information please feel free to contact us again.
Best Regards
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I also, sent an email too: Polizia Municipale Comune Di Firenze, with an attachment copy of the fine. This was their responce.
Good morning,
it’ s better waiting for formal notification of fine ( from Municipal Police of Florence ) and then you can decide for payment or appeal.
Best regards.
xxxxxxxxxxxx
email: pm.verbali.notifiche@comune.fi.it
Well! maybe I am wrong but it looks to me that Municipal Police of Florence, didn’t see the attached fine as being official.
The email address for Florence Police:
pm.verbali.notifiche@comune.fi.it
Written by Alex.
“Rhonda’s comment above, you will not that if you have pre-booked a hotel within a restricted traffic area you should tell the hotel staff, who should, in turn, advise the local police – will then exclude your car if it ends up being photographed.”
Alex,
I hope I don’t offend you but I have a problem. I have a degee in history and every quote, must be quoted as it was.
I Wrote:
“However, they also, have another law, which is: while tourists are staying within these areas the hotel manager by Law must take a copy of your passport, international drivers licence, and Car Number Plate, the hotel manager by Law must send copies to the local Polizia within 8 days of your stay. So that if a car Number Plate is picked up on the camera they can check against their recording of Authorized vehicles of tourists residing, even if it be a few days.”
It doesn’t matter whether you have pre-booked a hotel or just driven into Florence, and found a hotel, and spent the night. You were residing in Florence on those nights.
We received an email back from our hotel management saying: Your stay 28-29 May 2007,was registered with Municipal Police of Florence. Please, contact us again if you have more problems.
The four of us were out to dinner last night the matter came up and we have decided not to pay.
I hope this helps.
Regards.
Rhonda.
Hi Johan,
Thanks for the thanks! Let’s wait and see what reply you receive….
Best regards,
Alex
PS Your written English is a whole lot better than my French, written or spoken:-)
Hi K,
Glad you found the info useful.
As for the address, well, that did make me chuckle!!! Highly appropriate for the living museum. The late Machiavelli has a lot to answer for IMHO!
All the best,
Alex
Hello
April last year I visited Firenze with my family, and got caught 8 times on camera in the “restricted traffic zones”. I’ve waited to do anything about it untill now that I got the real fine( the one you receive after the “notification”)
I’ve talked to these people at EMO a couple of times to get advice on what to do about this.
Appealing, I will probably end up paying the double amount which will be a disaster for my family and I. So this morning I talked to somebody at the EMO who, strangely enough, told me a secret on how to avoid payment…..
I promise everyone who read this and you Alex, that when I’ve tested this method I will tell you all how it works out…
Best regards
Kasper
Hi Kasper,
Thanks for the info. We shall all wait with baited breath the hear about this secret method of avoiding having to pay these fines.
Hope it’s legalish!
And if it works, I’ll think about publishing it here – although anyone who decides to try out such method – must do so at his or her own risk.
Regards,
Alex
Hi Alex,
First of all, THANK YOU for providing a forum for people like me to vent and seek assistance and advice. Now for the nitty-gritty; I am fuming. I received two tickets in the mail this week for fines incurred in July, 2007. I drove through a ZTL twice in the same day and owe EMO nearly 200 Euros
Interestingly, our hotel was in a ZTL (I didn’t know what a ZTL was until yesterday). I am fluent in Italian (my mother’s family still lives there) and I have visited and driven all over Italy many, many times. Never seen these ZTLs before, never received tickets… I speak with a very noticable English accent and I presented my Canadian passport on arrival at the hotel so clearly, there was no mistaking that I am a tourist. When I ask where I should park my car, I would expect the hotel employee to have the common sense (and courtesy) to know that my car probably doesn’t have ‘authority’ to drive through a ZTL so she shouldn’t send me past another camera. She should also have asked for my license plate. I assume that it’s too late for the hotel to call now…7 months have passed.
I just wanted to let you know that when I got my International Drivers License, I received a book with laws and signs specific to Italy which I actually studied. The book I received from CAA (AAA equivalent in Canada) did NOT include the ZTL sign. The “Do Not Enter” is a red circle with a horizontal white line going through the middle – same as it is in North America. I have since notified CAA and AAA of my incident and of their ommission.
I am not saying that tourists should be exempted from these rules – the municipality of Firenze is free to make and enforce any rules they deem necessary. But for a city that relies heavily on tourists for income, they should have considered the fall-out this sort of gouging will have on their tourism industry. DID THEY? HOW DO I LET THEM KNOW THAT THIS IS A BLACK-EYE FOR THEM? It’s a trap really – if your hotel is in the core area of the city, there is no way to avoid these ZTL areas….pedestrian traffic, people double-parked – detours are inevitable!
Imagine had I known what that the ZTL sign meant and tried to stop my car in the middle of a busy street. That would surely upset the people behind me. Italy is not known for their patient or courtious drivers.
I am going to pay the fines as I will be back in Italy in the near future and will be renting a car again. But need some advice on who I can write to to let them know what a negative effect this is having. Any suggestions? I booked three other families for their vacations in Florence this summer. They all want to drive through the wine-country and will have their own cars. I cancelled all three reservations today because of this and am sending them to Trento instead.
Hi Katie,
Glad you found this post useful. The number of people affected by these ztl things never ceases to amaze me.
Anyway, I’ll track down a couple of names and addresses and get back to you. I’m thinking about the head of Florence’s tourist board, local council officer in charge of tourism, and, possibly, the Italian government minister in charge of tourism.
All the best,
Alex
It is good to know that I am not alone. My husband, parents, and I were traveling in Italy in April 2007. We received a total of……………………. 7 tickets! (Oh, and of course 25 Euro fines for each one from Europcar in addition to the 80-92 Euro fines from the polizia. Here is the breakdown:
5 from Florence: 1 for driving along lanes for public transportation only, 1 for circulating on roads reserved to other vehicles, and 3 for circulating in limited traffic areas (those 3 within a 10-minute period)
1 from Verona: driving through a Zone of Traffic Limited where car transit is allowed “only at certain hours of the day”
1 from Pisa: driving in limited traffic zone
The ones from Florence came in English. I called the police, and a woman told me that three of my fines could be removed if my hotel sent proof of my stay. After three rather difficult conversations with limited-English-speaking (but very friendly) ladies at the hotel, I faxed a letter and the copies of the tickets (add $25 + international phone calls…I haven’t received the bill yet!). My hotel tried to get the fines waived, but apparently was 100 meters outside of the restricted traffic zone! The hotel did send me forms about how to appeal the tickets, but, after careful reading, I realized that I would have to pay DOUBLE the fine if my appeals were rejected. I logged onto EMO website, paid the five tickets, have receipts, and feel relieved that at least those are done (although VERY poor!).
The ones from Verona and Pisa are trickier, as they are in Italian. I sent e-mails to both municipalities requesting more information. Verona sent me instructions in English, but I feel unsure as to how they will know that it is our ticket that has been paid…any answers?
Pisa has not responded to my e-mail. Their notification letter is very hard to understand. I gave it to a woman who speaks some Italian, and she could not figure out the instructions for payment. I also took it to the bank with no success.
Anyway, I do think that Italy should be aware that this is NOT good for tourism. I’m not the gambling type, so I am trying to pay the fines…however, I now have NO desire to visit Italy again. I certainly will never drive there again. It’s too bad, really…I loved it when I was there.
That being said, Italian drivers are AWFUL(in my opinion). Most of the time on the roads I was afraid for my life, and I considered it a miracle that we didn’t have an accident while in Italy. We were probably some of the safest drivers on the road, even if we did drive in limited traffic zones! Not to mention how confusing it was to get around Italy or find anything! Whose eyes can be peeled for ZTL signs when you are fearing for your life while trying to find a hotel at night?
I am trying my luck in Ireland this spring. Does anyone know of any similar problems in Ireland?
Sorry for the long post…it feels SOOOOO good to get this off of my chest (even if my wallet is empty).
Hi Becky,
Thanks for the long post! I’m very sorry to hear that you got 7 fines, unbelievable.
And I’m sorry to hear that you will not be coming back to Italy, although I quite understand why.
I’ll try to post a longer reply tomorrow or Monday and how you can make sure that the Verona and Pisa municipalities know that it was you who paid the fines.
All the best,
Alex
Becky,
Re the Verona and Pisa fines.
On the fine notification there should be the word ‘Casuale’, which is a sort of traffic offence reference number, and this reference is usually written on the fine, and it provides information with regard to the date that you were caught, the registration of the car you were in. If you quote this reference code whenever you contact the authorities then they will know what you are referring to. In addition, when you do pay the fines, ensure that the ‘Casuale’ information is included. You may, for example, be able to transfer money from your bank account, in which case there should be a section allowing you to specify why the transfer is being made. In this case write ‘Pagamento di multa Casuale: (Write the reference numnber and the car registration number)’ and you should be OK.
Hope that helps,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Thanks for your help. My husband went to the bank this week to pay the Verona fine (we can’t translate the Pisa one…), and they wanted to charge him $48 just to wire the money. Do you know if they accept bank checks or credit card payments? This is all starting to get ridiculous!
Just received four fines from EMO for driving in a ZTL in Florence last August, all on the same day. We were staying in the heart of the City – how can we check whether our apartment was in the ZTL?
And having read almost the whole of this blog (mind-boggling) I’m still unclear whether anyone has suffered any serious consequences from not paying?
As it is, we don’t plan to go back to Italy. They asked us not to anyway! We were travelling with my wife’s sister and Mum, who carry Indian passports, and when they applied for vias in London we were given 24 hours to produce 1200 Euros in travellers cheques, a copy of my brother-in-law’s passport (he was in India at the time) and a letter from my niece’s school confirming she was a pupil (in August!). Whe we expressed consternation, they told us to visit another country if we weren’t happy. If only we’d taken their advice!
Thank you Alex for your quick reply. I agree with you in that I have done all I can do. Maybe you can put this one worry I have to rest. Can the rental car company or the Italian authorities still charge my credit card? That is what the rental car company did, they just charged my credit card and didn’t even notify me. I had to go through all this just to find this out! I have considered canceling my credit card for that reason. Please advise. Thanks for your help!!
Forgot to mention – the rental car company charged my credit card for the admin fee for both tickets. Sorry about leaving that out…
Hi Liza,
In reply to your question: I don’t really know the answer, but I suspect that if you read the small print on the car rental agreement you will find that they can charge your credit card for offences that occurred while the car was in your possession.
However, they should only be able to do this if the fines are still valid – if they are not valid, then you have not, technically IMHO, committed any offence, in which case there is nothing they should be charging you for.
In the above case the fine does not exist, so making you pay would be a bit like asking you to pay for one extra day of car rental when you did not rent the car for an extra day.
However, having stated the above, we are now moving into the realms of contract law, and to be sure you need to know the terms of the contract – and it’s effects under Italian law. I don’t know how, but you would need to take legal advice on this.
Please remember that all of my comments, and ‘advice’ are informal, and need to be confirmed with someone who is a qualified expert. I don’t want you to get yourself in trouble for taking my ‘advice’, and I don’t want to get myself in hot water for offering advice when I am not qualified to do so.
Anyway, after the caveat, I hope you manage to sort this out. I guess you could start by writing to the hire company and asking them to refund the credit card charges, and see how they respond.
Kind regards,
Alex
Thanks Alex.
After a final check with the CA Automobile Assoc., I think I’ll send them a dispute with a double defense. Both the time limit, and a handicapped plaque.
If we go back to Italy, we plan only to visit the Riviera, Milan, and the Amalfi Coast (of course the wife will insist on Venice again). Pisa was nice, but there is so much more to Italy (and from everything I have found on the web, it appears that the authorities in Pisa are abusing this situation).
I’ll try to get back to you with any updates. Your Blog has been the best information on this subject anywhere on the web. MOLTE GRAZIE!
Rusty
Update:
I called CA AAA and they said they don’t know anything. They referred me to the local Italian Consulate.
That was a big waste of time. I specifically asked “What is the Italian law regarding the time frame for a municipality to send notice on a photo traffic violation.” The first guy I talked to said only, “If you do not pay it, maybe next time you go to Italy they will lock you up.” (not an answer to my question) I asked if they had anyone there who knew “the law.” He transfered me to a woman who would only say, “If they sent you the notice, then you have to pay.” (again, not an answer to my question) It was clear from the conversation that she did not know the law because she just kept parroting the same line.
I then went online and emailed the US Consulate in Milan (and some others localities). They sent me back this link.
http://www.patente.it/codice/201.htm
It appears that they needed to reach me in 360 days. It was 375.
I’m still going to use the double defense. I’ll let you know if anything more comes of it.
Rusty
Hi Rusty,
Thanks for the update.
But sorry to hear about the fairly standard reactions, which do not really make anyone’s life easier.
By all means have a go at using the defence and do please let me know if anything comes of it.
Many thanks once again for having taken the time to have posted about your investigations back here.
And, yet again, thanks for the molte grazie – good to hear that this post is helping some people in some small way.
All the very best,
Alex
I got one of the Pisa fines back in June 2006, and got a second notice recently.
Anyways, I contacted the Gardaí (im in Ireland), and they told me that in these type of cases, the rental company should be paying the fine to the Municipal Police directly.
It is then upto the rental company to claim the charge back of the renter, as it is in the lease contract signed in order to rent the car in the first place.
The Gardai have told me to bin the notices, and that they suspect it is some elaborate scam invloving some municipal police administrators.
If Italians were to commit a driving offence in a rented car over here (Ireland), the Gardai would fine the rental company, as they own the car. Its upto the rental company to chase the renter for the reimbursement apparently.
Also the fact that these “fines” can only be paid via Bank transfer stinks of a scam. The money is probably being pocketed by these scammers.
Feck em I say
Hi there
I was in pisa and drove on a wrong road in 24/7/ 2010 and got a fine today 1/7/2011 of 119 euro,
I will NOT pay this bill,and i will nevery step foot in pisa agin,what a crap law.
john galway
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the comment.
“Anyways, I contacted the Gardaí (im in Ireland), and they told me that in these type of cases, the rental company should be paying the fine to the Municipal Police directly.”
In answer to the above, I dug out my Eurpocar rental agreement from August 2007 to check this out, and in the General Conditions number 3, it says: The client undertakes:
c) to directly arrange to pay any fines raised against the hired vehicle during the period of the rental and to refund the Lessor any costs incurred in this respect, in addition to any payments made by the Lessor and the administrative charges quantified in the information sheets available at rental offices.
OK, this is only Europcar, but I suspect that other companies have similar conditions – note the ‘directly arrange to pay any fines’ wording.
The Gardai may be right, but how well do they know Italian law?
As for the fact that these fines can only be paid by bank transfer, I’m not sure that this indicates a scam, although it would be interesting to see an auditors report on this ‘income’ and see whereabouts it ends up.
If you do believe this is a scam, then why don’t you bring charges against them for fraud? As long as, of course, you can prove that you did not commit the offence they accused you of. Or you could take this up with the rental company and see how they react. I believe that many rental companies can and do track cars and so they may be able to confirm or deny that you were in the location when the alleged offence was committed.
While I can sympathise with your frustration, and that of everyone else here, until someone manages to prove that these fines are a scam, then they should, technically, be paid.
As I have mentioned before, a Euro MP needs to look into this and at the very least request audited accounts from the local authorities concerned.
And remember, I’m not an expert on this, and although I have quoted directly from a car rental agreement, its conditions may have changed.
If you do decide to bin the fines, then let us know what, if anything, happens next.
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi Alex – just discovered this blog and find it very helpful. I received a fine of 111,00 Euro for “Circulating in restricted traffic Zone” in Pisa. My offense date was June 4, 2007 and the notice arrived at my house on Feb. 16th, 2008 which my wife signed for.
I am within the 365 days so feel I should go ahead and pay the fine, what I am not seeming to find, is helpful information as to how to pay this fine.
I tried to e-mail the contact listed on my offense which is lucia.bigongiali@sepi-pisa.it however my e-mail keeps getting returned as undeliverable so that is no help. (Also makes me feel a bit suspicious).
I see that you found a way to pay fines from Florence on a Web-Site, has anyone found a web site for Pisa where fines can be paid? If not I am concerned about transferring money to the IBAN number listed, how would I ever know that they have received payment and that I am off the hook?
Thanks so much for your help!
Hi John,
Glad you find my little site helpful. Sorry to hear that you have joined the ‘I’ve been fined in Pisa club’.
As for paying the thing, aside from the bank transfer, I can’t seem to find any other method.
What I suggest you do is ring this number: 050 220561 – which is from the SEPi fine collection agency which works on behalf of Pisa, and see if you can confirm the bank details from them.
If I remember well, some way above in the other comments, someone mentions how to check out an IBAN code, so at least you should be able to ensure that it ends up in an official account. And, if you do go down the bank transfer route, remember to write the ‘causale’ reference number somewhere on the bank transfer, along with the date of the offence and the registration number of the car you were in.
Sorry I can’t be of much more help.
All the best,
Alex
Hi Carol,
I don’t know much about this, but I’ve had a dig around on the internet and come up with some information.
If you are Italian and your handicap is registered, then you can apply to the local commune (council) or Polizia Municipale (Municipal Police – not the Carabinieri or Poliza) for an pass which will allow you to park in the assigned spaces, pedestrianised areas and the zone di traffico limitato (restricted traffic areas).
The badge is valid for 5 years throughout Italy, but to obtain it you would need a certification from the Italian ASL health authority and to have made an application to the mayor. If you are not Italian, nor officially resident in Italy or only here for a short time (on holiday, business etc), then going through the application procedure is probably too time consuming.
What you don’t say is where you are from. If you are from within the European Community, then the blue tag may be recognised, but I’m not sure.
Are you planning on bringing your own car? Or would you hire a car here?
Generally, it appears as though hotels within the restricted traffic zones, if asked, will inform the local police about hire cars. In this case, a fine will not be issued apparently. However, if you drive into a restricted traffic zone you may well get fine, and the only thing you can do is appeal on the grounds that you have a registered handicap, but making the appeal will not be easy and you may well have to pay a car rental company admin charge, so it’s best to avoid the situation.
Let me know where you are from so I can have another hunt around to see if I can find anything useful.
All the best,
Alex
Hi, I am Hungarian, and I got three letters today from an Italian car rental company, with three times 70 EUR fine+3×50 EUR (!!) handling file expenses+VAT+postal taxes. I rented the car in Milan last year, September, and from the attached police letter I see, that all the tree incidents happened on 30th September, 9:10, 9:12 and 9:14 in the Zona a traffico limitato en Milan! The car rental company already tried to debit my banc account with 3 times 141 EUR, at that time I did not know what a hell it is, so I told my bank to cancel my card, and asked a new card. They told me they would investigate if these amount should be accepted or not, so it is a pending, restricted sum on my bank account. From the received letters I can see, that the car rental company already payed the fines. I don’t know what should I do, because I cannot imagine it is justified to fine somebody three times within 6 minutes!!!!
Furthermore it is very bad that the car rental company sent me three separate letter, and 3 times 50 EUR handling expenses!!!
What can I do? Will my bank let the debited sum to be payed to the car rental company? I amvery angry, because we rented the car with three colleagues, and it was a Saturday or Sunday morning, and we could not find our way out of Milan, and we happened to go through this damned zone, but this was not on purpose. (The whole car rental was 120 USD!!)
Imagine when I tell my colleagues that they each has to pay more than 100 EUR half year after the rental!!!
Any suggestion?!!!
I posted some comments back in Sept 07 after receiving a fine from Pisa (almost a year after the supposed speeding incident) – I have heard nothing since from the authorities (having not paid).
A colleague at work has just received notification of a fine from Naples (for not paying a Toll), again after some considerable delay. Quite how you bypass a toll without noticing, seems difficult. Unfortunately for him, the amount was charged to his credit card via the hire car company.
My best guess of what is going on, is a scam involving collusion between the police & hire companies. By ensuring that they only target foreign hirers, they avoid the inevitable flack that would ensue if they nicked locals in the scam.
Many posting on this blogg have stated that the experience (of being scammed) has put them off ever visiting Italy again.
I would offer the following advice to anyone (except Italian nationals) hiring a car in Italy:- ensure that the credit card used to pay/guarantee the hire car, expires or is cancelled within one month from the date of hire. That way, the car hire company cannot take any money (without your permission).
If I ever return to Italy (which I would not rule out), I will certainly take this step to protect my money.
Mike,
Do please write to your Euro MP about this. We need some investigative journalist to look into this.
As to your idea re credit cards, not bad. Let’s see if someone gives it a go.
All the best,
Alex
I received a fine ticket. I would like to pay but the username VO28AC1921 and Password are not valid in your system. Please let me know how to pay and proceed. My wife and me arrived late in Siracusa, we were starving and looking for a place to eat in Ortiga. I do not recall to break the law at any moment. Anyway I am willing to stop this fine.
Yours sincerely,
Federico Sanchez
I recently too received notice of a violation in Florence. The letter from the EMO stated: THE DRIVER WAS DRIVING ALONG LANES FOR PUBLIC TRANSPORT ONLY
Firstly, I’m not exactly sure what that means…but after reading through these posts, I’m somewhat at ease that I’m one of many to get something like this.
My problem is that I can’t find any evidence on the EMO website – http://www.emo.nivi.it or the other website suggested in other posts for Florence – https://ztl.comune.fi.it/tzv/Login.jsp of my violation. I would never agree to pay a fine unless they have some photographic evidence from a camera or a police report that I violated a law.
I can log into the EMO website just fine, but there are no attached documents showing an official violation. The other site does not recognize the “Numero verbale” which I was assuming were the numbers in the EMO protocol code – Pxxx/ALxxxx (7 in total).
In the Trip Advisor thread – http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187895-i68-k1475356-o100-Traffic_ticket_scams-Florence_Tuscany.html
Someone suggests to mail the Prefetto. This thread suggests that I should contact the Polizia Municipale via registered mail…should I try to contact both? (not really sure what the Prefetto is).
I wasn’t going to pay the fine until I get more of an official notice so if anyone has any suggestions, I’m open to hearing them. Else, I’m going to mail off the letters and see what happens.
“I received a fine ticket. I would like to pay but the username VO28AC1921 and Password are not valid in your system.”
I hope you have not tried to pay the fine on this site!
If you are having password problems, I suppose you could try writing and asking for another one.
Are you sure you have the right fine payment website?
All the best,
Alex
Woo hoo! I, too, have joined the “Vehicle circulated in limited traffic area without authorization” club. Only this one is in Florence (Firenze), I think – PZA Vittorio Veneto-LNO Amerigo Vespucci. Anyway, this is enough to make one’s blood boil. Notification six months after the supposed infraction!
I think what should happen is we refuse to pay and put the pressure on the car rental agencies to come up with the money for any fines. And deny any charges to credit cards if they (the rental agency) tries to assess against us. It might send a signal to them loud and clear to inform their customers of problem areas/thinks to look out for and for them to put pressure on the local authorities to ease up on tourists. I swear.
Of course, this is my civil disobedience coming out. I, too, don’t condone non-payment of fines when they are “just”.
As to my fine, I’m not certain what I’m going to do, yet. I’m wondering if I’m going to see some more of these for driving in areas I didn’t know I was supposed to avoid. And I’m sure I’ll be seeing something from my credit card company for some bogus admin charge.
Thanks, Alex and others, for all the good information and discussions.
april 25 I recieved a ticket in the mail from a trip in oct 07 .circulated in limited traffic area I went to emo there was a picture of rentel cr lic. two days later i recieved another ticket 1 hr after the first this happend in florence should i pay what happen if i do not? roscoe
Hi,
Just received 2 fines one at 15:33 and another at 15:37 both for 118 Euros!
We were in Pisa at the time and drove from the city center out to the coastal motorway and did get slightly lost on the way but never went very far from the main road.
We were in Rome last July so this fine has taken 13 months to get to my partner’s Mum’s house, where he used to live years ago.
What should we do?
Just joined the happy Worldwide band of Pisa lovers! Two fines totalling 226 Euros for offences in Via Roam Pisa over 12 months ago. Not sure if anyone has got anywhere with complaining to their MEPs but might give it a go. Certainly my plans to go back to Italy in 2009 are now over so they can wave goodbye to the 1000′s of Euros that that would have cost me and benefitted them. Hope someone from the Italian authorities reads some of this stuff but probably not.
@ Phil and Leigh,
I think, and this is only a suggestion, that the best strategy, if you were not transporting registered invalids or do not have a written record of a firm booking with a city centre hotel, would be to write to the authorities in English, simply asking for confirmation that these fines are not scams. Explain that you saw no road signs and that you were passing through, and then wait for a reply. My suggestion would be to not pay up until you have received a satisfactory reply – in perfect English.
If you were carrying registered invalids or had a firm city centre hotel booking, then send evidence of this, stating that you wish to contest the fine. Always in English, or your own language. If the Italian authorities have the capability of sending out fines in languages in other than Italian, then they must also have the capability of managing all aspects of fines sent out in languages other than Italian. At least this is my opinion.
Indeed, keep sending requests in English. I suspect that replying will cost more time and money than these fines are raising. You could even mention that you have reported this matter to your Euro MP, and until he or she confirms that these fines are legitimate – poor spelling and any other errors could well be a sign that a scam operation is active – you will not pay. And when writing, demand, yes, demand, some valid form of identification from the authorities concerned, it’s up to them to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the fines are legitimate and not scams – in Italy for most things you need to do here you must produce a passport or other valid identity document – so you should be within your rights to demand the same from them, after all, it’s only fair, and what is done here.
If the authorities are not capable of proving that these fines are legitimate, then there is no reason why they should be paid.
The Pisa, and other Italian, authorities are relying on the ignorance of foreigners. If enough people bombard them with letters requesting info in English, then they may find their strategy backfiring.
Remember,I am not a lawyer, so my opinions are suggestions, and no more – everything I state here needs to be checked out and confirmed. What you do is your decision – but I do recommend contacting motoring authorities for advice. I do not want to get you or myself into trouble.
@Lawrence – welcome to the club! And these fines seem to be on the increase, and for increasing amounts too.
Are the Italian authorities reading this? No. They just don’t know English well enough – but I’d love to be proved wrong on this!
Spread the word about these fines, as this blog post has been doing. If enough people here make a fuss, tell others to avoid Italy, and decide not to head for Italy on holiday themselves, then Italy will do something. Don’t hold your breath though – things move really slowly in the Living Museum.
Good luck to you all, and let me know how you get on,
Alex
I wrote the authorities (Polizia Municipale) in Florence a letter in English pleading my case. In my situation, there was no photographic proof that I violated a restricted zone, however they told me that an officer wrote an actual ticket. I told them that I wouldn’t pay the fine unless they could provide evidence (a copy of the ticket issued by an officer) that I violated the law.
The response I got was that the sent me another infraction in their reply! They never produced any evidence from the first infraction which they stated they had.
I have no intention of paying the first fine as they still have sent no evidence of a violation. The second fine I find even more ludicrous being that it was issued only after I tried to dispute the first charge.
Its been about 2 months and I haven’t heard anything, but that doesn’t surprise me with Italian government. My bet is that they cast very wide nets on foreigners and assume some will pay and some won’t. Also from what I understand, these notices from the EMO are not actually tickets, just notifications of a traffic violation. The theory is that if you pay off the EMO the charges would be less if you were issued an actual ticket…at least thats my personal understanding. If the EMO fine notifications were legally binding notices, they would be sent over registered mail.
That being said I’m also not a lawyer.
Hi Chris,
Did you receive the ticket? Actually being stopped by a real person probably indicates that the offence did take place.
But, if nothing was sent via registered mail, then it would be difficult for them to prove that you actually got the fine, or rather, notification of fine.
The ‘extra’ fine is what is issued in the event that a contention is considered invalid.
You are right, EMO is a collection agency. This fact in itself may make all the fines or fine notifications unlawful.
What we need here is a lawyer. Sooner or later a lawyer who has been caught out will happen upon this post and the comments, and, hopefully, let everyone know what, if anything, can be done.
It would be interesting to hear from someone, anonymously, who has not paid up, and has had nothing happen to them – especially if said person has returned to, and stayed in, the same area of Italy in which the alleged offence was committed.
As I’ve mentioned before, I have no idea as to the lengths Italian authorities will go in seeking settlement of fines.
I’m still waiting to hear of UK drivers who have been fined via the DVLA for offences taking place in Italy. There was supposed to have been some kind of link up, but I’m not sure what has come of it.
Calling all lawyers!! We need you!
Cheers,
Alex
What I meant in my earlier post was that for my first ‘offense’, I received a notification in the mail last November. I was never stopped by an officer in Florence, nor had reason to believe I committed any traffic violation. They merely told me over mail that the reason why there was no photograph of my vehicle was because an officer issued a ticket, sometime after the fact when I wasn’t present. They failed however to provide a copy of that ticket as evidence.
The additional fine was a notice of a new traffic violation (in addition to my Florence fine), in Imprunetta. They actually had an illegible photograph on the EMO website for that one. What was strange is that they included that directly in their mail response to me – doesn’t sound to me like proper protocol for issuing a new fine. I would think that one fine would be completely independent of another fine and should be dealt with separately.
Either way, at this current time I will not pay either violation. They certainly haven’t done much on their way for providing “burden of proof”.
Hello
i was just wondering, if i was on vecation in Italy and rented a car with GPS, (without any knowleg on where i can and cannot drive exept waht is the GPS showing me, the can i sue the renting company or the gps company for showing me the way throu the restricted area???
p.s. sorry for my spelling
@Chris – not sure if they can issue a ticket without giving it to you, although that’s what the speed cameras do. Push them – insist on seeing a copy of the actual ticket. Claim that you believe they are scammers, which is possible, and you will report them to Interpol or the FBI.
The reaction should be fun!
Insist on everything from them being via registered post – no email. I believe you are in the US, so this will be more expensive. Or insist on emails having real authorisation. Ask for documentary proof validated by the Italian embassy in your country that they are who they say they are.
I don’t think these things are scams – but there is a slim chance that this is the case.
@Rafi – I don’t think your idea would function. GPS devices are not officially certified, as far as I know. Read the small print. Nope, suing the rental firm would not work – they cannot decide where you drive their cars, within limits.
Rental cars do sometimes have GPS tracking systems. These can, theoretically, be used to establish where you were on a particular date and at a specific time. This could get you off.
Best of luck – but I do think reporting these things on the basis that they are scams may have so effect. I’d also like to see some evidence of just where all this fine income is ending up.
Alex
Hi Alex,
Do I detect a change of attitude over the months since you started the thread concerning Traffic Violations in Italy?
Are you becoming a tad rebellious/frustrated/outraged/bored?
Recently, my wife got her first ticket 13 months after stopping her car in a restricted area in Pisa following a call from my daughter in the car behind informing her that I had just been hit from behind by an Italian driver.
I will be taking your advice and writing to the local MEP (heaven knows who will pay attention to an MEP from N Ireland) and I will write to the local authority (in Irish maybe?) and see what happens.
I will keep you informed. Thanks for all the postings.
Peter
Hi Peter,
Yes, I think you have detected a slight change in attitude. I guess I just want to see something done.
This issue is smouldering along, and seems to be getting worse. If it is a scam, then someone is doing well out of it.
And yes, write to them in Irish, stating that if you do not hear anything back from them within 30 days, then you will consider the fine a scam and not pay it.
Try your MEP, but he or she is probably too busy attending functions and eating to bother looking into this.
Let me know what happens, and thanks for the thanks!
Cheers,
Alex
I (here in California) just received three notices of “Circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation” with a fine of 113 Euros each. They took place within a twenty minute time frame while I was trying to find a parking place near the Duomo. I don’t remember any signs restricting entrance and I was always with other vehicles, so assumed I was OK.
I am going to take Alex’s suggestion and write to the Provincial Governor (listed on the paper) asking for verification, etc. If anyone else has ideas of how to fight this please let me know.
“The English translation they sent does not make clear what the Numbero Verbale is. I have Nr. of form: 01116215 / 2007 Pr. 201089/2007, but I have entered every combination I can think of and no record comes up.”
Mine looked something like that too. I finally figured out it was the numbers on the left, but without the leading zero (1116215) in your case. Hope that helps.
Jacob, I too tried many combinations of numbers for the numero verbale and I finally figured it out. It requires seven digits of the Nr. of form and you drop the first 0. In your case, try 1116215. The photo shows only the license plate of the car. It does not show you going through a restricted area. I’m debating whether to pay the fine as mine was from June of 2007 and I just got the infamous notice yesterday by regular mail.
Thanks for the help. Yes, the photograph is not exactly helpful, is it? I suppose I was the driver of record for that date, so there’s not much too argue. I will warn you that from other websites (and as noted by others earlier in this blog), they do raise the fine if you challenge it and lose.
So, be careful regarding writing the provincial governor.
Virginia,
I think that looking at Alex’s earlier descriptions the one year clock starts ticking when the authorities receive your details. So that would be when presumably the hire company passed them on.
What I see a distinctly fishy is the way all these notices appear just within the legal one year limit. Why not tell you soon after they receive the info from the hire companies?
Hey Alex,
Nice website. Thank you for your information. I too, am a victim of Pisa’s surveillance camera, alledgedly driving in a “restricted traffic zone without authorization” The fine is 113 Euros! WOW!I have no clue what I did? I tried to bring up “the photo” and have NOT been succesful with that operation. Can you advise how I do that? Anyway, I am querying two of my Police friends in Italy on how to handle this summons. I will let you know their response. Anyway, I would appreciate any information on the validity of this summons and how I could best resolve the situation. Thank you, Bob Pattwell ( Ironically a retired Sergeant with NYCPD)
Wow, this is a very common problem, it seems like. I just received my 113 euro fine, again for driving in a “restricted traffic zone without authorisation.” Bob, if you find any kind of resolution, it would be much appreciated. Ethan
@Jacob,
“they do raise the fine if you challenge it and lose.” – Yes, this is not nice – done to encourage people to pay up and shut up. Sounds like human rights infringement to me.
@Ian,
“What I see as distinctly fishy is the way all these notices appear just within the legal one year limit. Why not tell you soon after they receive the info from the hire companies?”
– Yes, I agree, could be typical Italian sloth, or something else…
@Bob,
Gald you like the site!:-)
Seeing as you are a retired NYCPD policeman with police friends in Italy, you should be able to provide us all with some concrete advice. We all look forward to this, and thank you in advance.
As for not being able to bring up the photo – if you have managed to register and login, then I don’t know. If there is no photo, there is no proof – enter attempted scam.
Regarding the validity of the summons, I’m telling everyone to demand some form of identity declaration linking these authorities to Italy. If they cannot prove that they are legitimate, then why should you pay?
Again, though, I aint no lawyer. We need an international lawyer prepared to do a bit of pro bono work!
Here’s to hoping.
@Ethan,
Please read my replies for September 2008 for a few suggestions as to how you may handle this fine.
Kind regards to one and all,
Alex
I have emailed, as suggested above, to ask for proof of identity of the company collecting the fines ‘for my lawyer’ and also for photographic evidence of where the restriction notice was displayed in relation to where the photo was taken, as I, too, was travelling with other vehicles towards the Duomo having just picked up our car – maybe others could try the same? Re the time limits, their email reply states “Time and Way to send a infringement:
if you have rented a car by a rental company, we have 360 days from the date of that rental to use your personal details.( the rental company give s us a copy of your rental contract). If we respect these times the fine is legal.” My letter from them states two dates – 19/8/2008 and 29/8/2008 and we returned from Italy on 2nd Sept, so they may not actually have used my details within the 360 day period.
Hi Maureen,
It will be interesting to hear the response to your email. Beware though, that emails can become ‘lost’ – ensure you receive a receipt – indeed insist on it.
“Time and Way to send infringement” , does not good English sound. And “If you have rented a car BY a rental company” is not correct ‘by’ should be ‘from’.
One other thing, do check your rental agreement -as should everyone – if there is not a clause stating that you waive your rights under Italian privacy laws, then the rental company cannot share your personal information. Even if they do, then the document transfer system should be secure. Otherwise, this kind of information could fall into the wrong hands, or be tampered with.
Re time limits, as I understand Italian law on this subject. The time limit starts from when the fining authority receives your details – as being the person who committed the offence. However, if they state themselves that this is not the case, then then they may be wrong.
If you read information in the main post, and the comments from Rusty, you will discover that the lovely Italian authorities may have up to 2 years to collect fines.
Do remember that I am not a lawyer, and any information is merely personal opinion backed by some research.
All the best,
Alex
I too have been received a fine from Pisa(Two offences 8 minutes apart total 226 euro – I have been interested to note how often an 8 minute gap has been reported between offences in this blog). Anyway in my case its all doubly annoying as I was not in Italy at the time of the offence, nor have I ever hired a car from the hire company mentioned.
I have contacted the phone number on the letter and they were no help at all, they just kept asking ” well when were you in Pisa”. I have also sent e-mails to explain my position and ask for advice , all they do is reply with more advice on how to pay the fine and view the photo on the website.
The whole situation is outrageous, I too will be writing to the Italian tourist office and Pisa commune to demand an explanation.
Got my first 113 Euro surprise yesterday. Am expecting two more as Europcar took 96 Euro from my Amex in February. Car hire mob said they were for 3 parking fines in Pisa last November (3 in 20 minutes).
Being from Australia, there is no way I will be paying the fines, I am going to frame the infringement notices as a souvenir of our trip, and send a two word email to infostranier@sepi-pisa.it.
I am another ‘victim’ of Hertz and the Municipality of Pisa. My wife and I were in Italy in June 2007. We hired a car in Rome and headed North. We made a brief stop in Pisa, just to get some lunch and have a quick look around. Later in the week we stayed in Verona. In October, after our return to New Zealand, we received two invoices from Hertz for what I assumed were parking fines in Verona. They had already debited our credit card. Then in December we had another for a fine from Pisa. A couple of days ago we received an infringement notice from the Municipality of Pisa. When I tried to access the photograph I discovered your site. It was only then that I realised the invoices from Hertz were for ‘administration fees’ and not actual fines. After reading the posts on your site I have managed to see the photograph – just about all it shows is the car number plate – hardly proof of an offence. We certainly werent aware of any restricted zones.
I am hoping we wont receive further infringement notices from Verona. The times and dates given relate to us stopping outside the hotel we stayed at to unload our bags so maybe that will get us off any ‘infringement’
Reading all the comments on your site was very helpful. My inclination is not to make too much effort to pay the fine.
I have just received a 113 euro fine for the circulating in a restricted traffic zone while lost in Pisa.
My only fear is that there are more on the way. One or 2 i can handle more than that i think is just extracting the urine.
I too received a 113 euro fine last week (for circulating in a restricted zone in Pisa) from May 2007 but I have no idea when the cops got the info from Europcar – I can’t even remember which credit card I used but no doubt I have an additional charge on there which I missed. I would ignore it but I’m not sure how hot they are on nabbing you if you re-enter the country. Apparently, the UK does not pursue this type of offence with foreigners as it is not a criminal offence here whereas it is in Italy/Spain etc.
Like most others I did not see the sign either and I usually look out for these things. Anyone written to their MEP yet?
At the risk or being repetetive, I too have just received 2 requests for €113 for entering the fabled restricted zone in Pisa in August 2007. These are a day apart and are dated a year and a day after the offences. Suspecting a scam, I googled and that brought me here. I shall read what has gone before carefully but feel very aggrieved and will do whatever I can to get the fines dropped or forgotten. I’ll be reading everyone elses progress with great interest.
Alex, You can add this to your list of useful links:
http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
Jon
@ Mike – do your worst. I have heard of people getting fines when they where not in the area at the time. Do prostest.
To other Pisa victims, I’ve just added this new post:
How to pay Pisa traffic violations
I hope it helps in some small way.
And Jon – thanks for the link.
Alex
@Sam Hobbs – I love the Watchdog idea! Go for it! Feel free to mention my name, and Blog from Italy.
Cheers,
Alex
PS If enough noise is made, something will happen.
For the moment though: Don’t stop in Pisa for pizza!
I think everyone affected should contact watchdog in the UK
http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/contact_index.shtml
here is the address. the more people who talk out, the more chance of helping others
To Paul and others.
The biggest mistake I made on this was accepting the Registered letters from the municipality of Pisa. Once you do so, you have been officially served, and have the responsibility of dealing with the issue. If you do not accept the letters, then the “court” has no proof that you have been properly notified, and can not continue to hold the claim against you.
NEVER ACCEPT REGISTERED LETTERS FROM UNKNOWN SOURCES.
I too, have emailed Watchdog.
Categories look a bit blase………..but ahve done it all the same.
Hopefully something will be done.
I also phoned them in Pisa to ask if I could pay by debit card Maestro……….they didnt like that and kept insisting it was a credit card.We’ve ended up paying the fine through a World Pay system at the bank , it will cost us £9 as well as the 113 euros fine.
Daylight robbery!!!
I too received 3 fines, at a 8 minutes difference one from the other, from the Pisa police department for the same reason travelling in their restricted zones…last September.I did not received the fines by registrered mail, and did not get any additional charge from Hertz…yet! I agree to pay 1 fine but not 3..I found a site under (Prefettura di Pisa)containing documentation on how you can contest a fine, there is a template to fill out and then it is presented to either the Prefect or the Justice of the peace, but the catch is, that if they reject your request you will have to pay at least minimum double the amount of the fine i.e 226 euros each yack! and if I dont pay the fines I am afraid the rental company comes back further down the road with 3 charges of 185 euros each + their charges on my credit card, can they do this?
I’m with Paul (from Australia) on this one. The completely inadequate signage and multiple fines issued minutes apart means that any moral obligation I had to pay is out the window. A small sacrifice is that I will not be able to go back to Pisa – but then the world’s a big place.
Dave
Hi All,
I don’t know if this will lead to anything, but the European parliament is showing up in my site visitors records, and whoever it was looked at this page.
Fingers crossed!
Please take a look at the photos in this post:
http://italychronicles.com/how-to-pay-pisa-traffic-violations/
I would be interested to hear if anyone else had the hired the same car. Always assuming that it was a hire car. Pretty sure it was.
I don’t think there has been any collusion – more like poor road signs, drivers not familiar with the areas and the unrelenting pace of Italian drivers – who don’t give anyone enough time to absorb the sea of road signs – all rigidly in Italian, of course. Bigger, clearer road signs are needed IMHO
All the best,
Alex
Same thing has happened to me. Has anyone acutally been successful in getting these ridiculous fines dropped or reduced? Does anyone know if you can pay them up bit by bit (no way can we afford it as a one off payment). Also who is the best person to write to to complain about this? Thank you.
Just to say that I too have contacted “Watchdog”. However, as they are off air until October I hope this doesn’t leave it too late for us. Does anyone have the email address for the Provincial Governor of Italy?
@Christine: How does this World Pay thing work to pay this fine? I have decided I would just like to pay the fine and be done with this (and never return to Pisa again), but the truth is I am in the US, and I haven’t the slightest idea how to go about paying this fine without spending a small fortune and guaranteeing it arrives on time and in sufficient quantity.
I have contacted My MEP’s that serve the county that i live in, with a reference to this site. So it could be something to do with that.
I have over 30 days to pay my first fine so hopefully we can get a resolution within that time. Everyone needs to contact there MEP and Watchdog about this. One fine i guess is acceptable if the rules were broken but multiple fines is just milking a cash cow
John phoned our bank and told them the quandary. The girl was quite helpful and gave us 2 options the cheapest way was wolrd pay…….£9 plus the euors amount takes a week to arrive……and the swift payment which they advocate is £25!!!!!!!! but quicker………….
Come on folks – we must not pay up but challenge it. We have no way of appealling successfully. This is because my husband was the driver and he has autism. To appeal you must write in perfect Italian. He has severe difficulties communicating in English due to his disability so how on earth could he possibly communicate in a foreign language that he cannot speak one word of anyway?
Hi everyone,
Diane’s comment has got me thinking. I had a look at the Italian constitution, and more perticularly,
Article 24 [Right to be Heard in Court]
(1) Everyone may bring cases before a court of law in order to protect their rights under civil and administrative law.
The key word is ‘everyone’ in that in the Italian version, the word ‘tutti’ is used. This implies anyone and everyone regardless of nationality.
By sending out notices in English and then stating, in a contradictory fashion, that appeals may only be submitted in Italian, the Pisa, or whatever Italian authorities appear to be acting outside the rules of the Italian constitution – under which all are considered equal in the eyes of the law.
This means you may appeal in whatever language you like – it is up to the Italian authorities to translate and respond appropriately – in my opinion.
It is unjust that they send out fines in – poor – English, and then state that you must appeal in Italian – and they say this in English. I believe this alone may serve to invalidate just about all of the notifications/fines send out to date.
What we need is a friendly lawyer to present this case in Italy. The Pisa authorities may well be acting beyond the provisions of their own countries constitution.
I’d be interested to hear the opinion of others on this hypothesis.
And Diane, seeing as your husband has a disability and he was driving, then the car was being used for the transportation of persons with a disability – therefore you should not have to pay a bean theoretically.
Alex
Ashvin – I’d need to check on this. Banks reopen on Monday. I’ll ring and ask.
Alex
Guys,
In Saturday’s Guardian, money section there was a front page article on the scam that it fines in Italy. a la our experiences. It’s interesting to note that they give percentages of fines given to germans, italians and french folk while they are in Britain. it’s obvious that Germans don’t pay our fines !!!!!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money
The article is the 1st one highlighted
Alex,
Well spotted regarding the Italian legal wording. May I assume that you are fluent in the language? If so may I suggest that to get some local legal comment (not advice as such but opinion from people who claim to know the local laws) that you get onto the newsgroup called:
it-alt.lavoro.professioni.avvocati.domiciliazioni-legali
which AFAIK is something to do with jobs for lawyers but in there there should be some knowledge perhaps? I was tempted to try (in English of course) but suspect that I would be ignored at best.
Thanks again for keeping us informed as well as hosting a very useful community.
Ian
Thanks. Have a look at the bottom of the letter at the paragraph beginning “This formal notice, its serving and everything connected with it are governed by the international conventions in existence between Italy and Grait Britain…”
“Grait Britain” – where on earth is that?? Technically, no such place exists so we are surely all exempt!
There’s an article posted in this Saturday’s Guardian regarding such fines…….
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money
Caught in Holiday traffic is the article……..worth a read guys…..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money
an article worth reading guys………..it might sound vaguely familiar
hey guys,
see link for article in yesterday’s guardian……..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money
Hi Christine,
Sorry your comments did not get published immediately – they got spammed. I’ve just de-spammed them. The article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/sep/13/motoring.consumeraffairs
is interesting and reflects my own point of view, aside from whether these fines are fair or not, if you don’t cough up, then there is a risk that non-payment may lead to ‘consequences’ when returning to Italy. Please read the article.
Ian – I do speak and read Italian well enough, but my written Italian is not up to much alas. I shall speak to some Italian lawyer friends of mine about this too.
I had thought about doing this before, but their advice would have required sending letters to the Pisa authorities and contesting things in court. Such a course of action will inevitably cost money – as well as considerable time and effort to set up. I’m a little reluctant to go down such a path as I’m not too sure where it will end up.
Reading the Guardian article it does look as though the fines are legitimate, so arguing a case in an Italian court would not be too straight forward and you can bet your bottom Euro that the Pisa authorities, and others, will fight tooth and nail to hold on to this little income stream.
Personally, I reckon adverse media attention will be more effective – and cheaper, so it would be good to get the Watchdog people on board, if we can.
Should Watchdog not work out, then getting lawyers involved may be an option, even if the time-scale involved will be long – as will be the cost. Court cases take an age to be resolved in Italy – and 10 years is an oft quoted length of court cases here – possibly more if you appeal things to the highest court here or take the thing to Europe.
Let me know your thoughts on the above. Anyway, I’ll have a go at Watchdog when I’ve got a moment.
All the best to one and all,
Alex
Hi all,
Diane, and the rest of you might like this recent post:
Italy doesn’t Give a Damn about Tourists
All the best,
Alex
I am currently in talks with my MEP, they are currently looking into the issues and will keep you updated with any information i can!
Cheers
Andy
Good stuff Andy!
Keep up the great work! I’m hoping to hear back from the Guardian.
If we keep up the pressure, then something will come out of this. Might kick me out of Italy though!
By the way, the Pisa fine photo checking server appears to be down – well one person has not been able to get in.
Can others confirm that the server is up or down? Here is the link:
https://secure.comune.pisa.it/tzv/Login.jsp
Try looking at those photos once more, if you don’t mind.
All the best to one and all,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Thanks for blog info, add me to the Pisa list for restricted traffic zone without authorisation ‘violators’ Ridiculous isn’t it and clearly a money raising venture for them given how poor their sign posting and street lighting at night is.
Interestingly, when I phoned 0039 050 220561 the girl I spoke to said to send a bank cheque and £ sterling would be acceptable. I got her to confirm this twice. I’m tempted to pay but continue the arguments?
Alex and All,
I have today got home to find a pink recorded delivery slip (all in Italian) on my doormat with the sender ‘Corpo Della Polizia Locale’. I holidayed in Venice a few months ago and suspect it is a fine for some sort of traffic offence whilst out there.
My question is ‘Do people think i should bother to organise the collection of the letter from the post office?’
I fear a hefty fine that I can ill afford and if ‘they’ have no record of receipt, could anything be followed up without any such evidence of receipt?
I look forward to reading anyones views?
Steve
Hi Steve,
Hope you weren’t driving in Venice;-)!
If you are sure that this is a fine, really sure, then you could probably forget to retrieve it from the post office I suppose.
They might try again, or might catch up with you if you enter Italy in the future.
Your decision. Fines should be paid of course.
Regards,
Alex
Hi
I just received a surchage from car hire company Hertz for a “verbale fine on line” committed in April. So I suspect the actual police fine to arrive later. No idea what for though we were driving in centre of Bologna so probably some kind of restriction on traffic was in force. We were actually lost and trying to find a car park.
I have Italian friends so if the real fine arrives I will ask them to help out with investigating … and maybe paying.
My initial reaction is to probably ignore it though might want to go back to Italy one day!
Has anyone actually ignore these fine and got away with it ?
Cheers Fraser
After doing a bit of investigating, the authorities in the UK have 14 days in which to issue notification of intention to prosecute for a motoring offence. I know that does not help much, but if you think the Italian authorities have 180 days in which to notify locals and 360 days in the case of a foreigner, you must be falling for every scam in he book.
What I don’t understand is why the Nigerians are not operating this scam – there appears to be a lot of money to be made from you mugs.
Mike,
What is done in the UK is not that relevant alas. Italy has its own laws, and a totally different legal system to the UK too.
That a longer period is specified under Italian law is a reflection of the fact that things take longer here.
As for this being a scam. It may or may not be. This is being looked into by MEPs and, hopefully, the Guardian newspaper.
Watch this space.
Cheers,
Alex
Hi again!
I have just had a letter from my MEP who is very aware of this issue and has noticed its recent media attention.
She is going to take this up with the Italian embassy in London to see if an amicable agreement can be reached
Hi Alex,
Chalk me up as another victim of the Pisa “honey trap”
Like others I had probs getting my plate photo up on the website but I can confirm the comments of “Braden” that you must remove the leading zero from the “Numbero Verbale” (how user friendly is that! I develop web app by the way
). I only got this important info after emailing the contact address twice. It came in a long explanation email which I could post here if anyone thinks it would be useful.
So how do I feel about the situation?
Well yes, we were there at the date/time stated and I guess we did drive down that street. Mind you we drove down so many streets trying to find a parking place/meter that I couldn’t say for sure!
Did we see the restricted entrance sign? Well no, but even if we did would we have known what it meant? I guess not. So who’s fault is that? Okay, it’s our fault for not learning the road signs of the country we were visiting. As a driver you have the responsibility to know the rules of the roads you are driving on.
Okay, so yes, we were there at the date/time stated and ignorance of a country’s road traffic signs is no defence.
So what’s the gripe? Well it’s the time it’s taken for them to come after us! I’ve read all the words here and understand the 60 day/360 day rule but come on, how many tickets do they issue? How long does it take! I could have moved home in that time, hell I could have died! Are they going to come after my family if they every visit Italy again?
Am I going to pay? Well as we were in the wrong, I guess so but they don’t make it easy. I’m going to try a sterling cheque with the exchange rate in my favour and send it recorded delivery and see what happens.
Ciao,
dickbob
P.S. Thanks for the blog posting, most helpful and I think one of the longest running I’ve ever read!
Andy – thanks for that Sunny link. It shows you just how good Italians are at setting up scams – and that is the tip of an iceberg.
At times it is difficult to know just whether something is legitimate or a fiddle here. Which does make the Pisa situation suspect, that I’ll grant you. One famous Italian fiddle was actually advertised on mainstream TV.
Still hoping to hear more on the Pisa front.
Cheers.
Alex
Hi Alex, I have a notification from each city, 6 and 11 months later. I paid the first as I was returning just after receiving the notification and wanted to avoid a potential problem with the police. I am arguing over the second as we were displaying two disabled passes, one of which belonged to my co-driver and the other to one of our friends who was a passenger. I wrote to my MEP on the 1st occassion & she couldn’t get anywhere. “Shafted Tourist”s entry 21/09 was very helpful and overcame what I believe are deliberate obstacles to gainign entry to the secure.comune.pisa web site. Based onthe information in “Shafted”s posting, I have emailed sepi-pisa-it advising them they have made a mistake. I have complained to my MP and will also complain to my MEP. Photo is on its way to you!
We just joined the club. After getting a few weird charges on our card last spring, we cancelled the card and paid a $36 fine and haven’t thought about it since. Until today; exactly 366 days since we were in Siracusa. My wife signed for a registered letter that contained two notices for 110.10 Euros. I don’t really have any intention of paying at this point, but would be willing to pay the local fine(I assume the huge cause is due to EMO’s mark-up). I haven’t seen any posts that discuss this. Since this is the initial notification, is there a mechanism for paying the fine, not the ridiculous amount the collection agency is charging. I’m in the US—any chance I could pay the fine at the exchange rate when I was there??
Hi to one and all,
The Guardian has published my letter to them on this issue, it can be seen here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/sep/20/10?gusrc=rss&feed=money
Then scroll down to:
Point of no return over Pisa traffic fines
Kind regards,
Alex
@Persecuted Florence & Pisa Tourists
The disabled passes should get you off. And please do send those photos – there is a very, very slight possibility that they are not sufficient proof.
@John,
Maybe we should produce a T-shirt for all the ‘members’ here! Polite, suggestions for a slogan welcome.
How about:
I was f***d in Italy. – f***d = fined, of course!
As for paying the fine at the exchange rate when you were here – technically this is perfectly correct. Realistically though, I doubt whether you would have any luck. Still, it might be fun trying. The more everybody snarls up the admin bods with post, the better – I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT BETTER SIGNS!
As for the collection agency’s ‘mark-up’, not sure what could be done about that – lawyer territory.
All the best to both of you,
Alex
Alex,
Some more letters on the Guardian site here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/sep/27/10
I too sent in one but I am happy that there are several people published pointing out the problem. Let’s hope it keeps in the news.
Ian
Hi all,
Can someone please clarify exactly where we should send an appeal to these fines? Is it the address on the letter?
Municipality of Pisa
Municipal Police station
Piazza Facchini 16 – 56125 Pisa
or
Prefetto di Pisa (whoever/where ever that is!)
Thanks
Ian
Hi Alex,
I have been informed that our fine (multa) has been cancelled, I don’t have any details yet but all I can say is that it is due to providing a copy of the notification letter and disabled badge holders to the police. However, it will take 30 days before I receive confirmation. Regarding the previous posting about where should an appeal be sent to, for Pisa, the letter from the police says that the appeal has to go to the Prefetto at the Municipal Police Station, the address is on the top of the letter. However the appeal has to be in Italian, try http://www.bablefish.com for translation services. Although the letter doesn’t say so, an article quoting a member of sepi-pisa states you can fax a document to the Prefect of Pisa, 0039-050549666.
See http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187895-i68-k2226761-o20-Pisa_Restricted_Zone_Traffic_Fine-Florence_Tuscany.html
Search for a posting by Dpoid Posted on: 6:25 pm, September 17, 2008
Based upon my experience, there is no point emailing, faxing or telephoning sepi-pisa for clarification. They did not reply to my email or fax. When I eventually got through onthe telephone, the lady I spoke to didn’t really understand English. I have read that sepi-pisa advise it isn’t their role to deal with appeals. So, my advice is don’t waste your time or theirs by trying to contact them.
I’m waiting on feedback from an Italian lawyer to clarify Italian motoring law. I’ll let you know the outcome and my next steps.
Great news about having the fine annulled Mr P!
Well done! Your persistence has obviously paid off.
There is hope.
And thanks for all the info. Should be very useful for other persecuted ex-Pisa tourists.
Thanks for letting us all know.
Cheers,
Alex
No I’m not “the” Stig but I’m also a Top Gear fan and thought that the name sort of sarcasticly fits for this blog!!!!!
Nice one “stig”
But then of course, the real Stig would never reveal his, or her true identity…….
(sorry to hijack the blog Alex, back to fines and scams…….)
Phil
Hi, unfortunatly I seem to have fallen victim to the Pisa ZTL scam. Great site here btw.
Anyway, I have written to my MEP about it although I havent actually recieved anything from the Italian authorities yet.
I though I might just “return to Sender” anything that arrives through the post and obviuosly I wont sign for anything sent recorded delivery. any ideas if this might work?
Just though I would mention that the link to the Pisa vehicle photos appears to be unusually case sensitive. The word “Login” needs to be capitalised for it to work. Hope that helps.
And Yes – you can add us to the Pisa victims too. Just received our fine from June 2007 for circulating in a restricted zone. It’s a photocopy and who knows if the bank account is for real? The hire company have not answered my questions either. The photo is black and white and is simply the back end of the hire car and a piece of tarmac!
I’ve already had to pay a speeding fine and hire company admin charges from the beginning of the same holiday, 7 days earlier. The fine arrived in the same manner, although a little more official and easier to check out.
Nothing new here then!
@Phil – I was a bit sorry to hear that the real ‘Stig’ had not dropped in here! Would be good if he or she did though, or even that Clarkson bloke!
@Thescouselander – Gald you like the site! On the fine front, you could try avoiding the registered letter, I suppose. Just be sure it’s not that registered letter telling you that you’ve won 15 million on the lottery!
@Tracie R – Someone has already told me about this Login thing – can’t remember if it was a mail or a comment – I’m getting plenty of both about this Pisa thing! But you are right.
Oh, the bank account is real, that’s a cetainly – whether it is legitimate – that’s another question. Traffic fine scams are an issue here in Italy at them moment – have a gander at my recent post:
http://italychronicles.com/italian-traffic-light-scams/
As for the photo – look at this one here:
http://italychronicles.com/how-to-pay-pisa-traffic-violations/
The photos I’ve seen are b/w, and don’t show a fat lot. Question is, are the cameras officially certified? Some in Milan were not, and an Italian has his and many other fines declared null and void.
Hold onto those payment receipts people!
Cheers,
Alex
Thescouselander – which MEP did you write to?
Let me know please – another MEP is digging too – if they are not one and the same.
TTFN,
Alex
Hi again!
I had to stump up on Friday as my deadline was drawing to a close, and due to me going skiing in March in Italy i needed to pay it (well i wasn’t but the wife insisted).
I will continue looking for an answer as if i could get a refund it would be great! (I’m not holding my breath).
All in all my fine came to roughly £111. Thats with exchange rate, £16 bank charge and 5 a euro “handling” fee by the Italian banks.
Nice little earner for everyone involved!
I still think its a gross tax on tourists and personally i will never return to Pisa.
My biggest fear now is that the Italians now know that i paid the fine. If this is a real scam they will open the flood gates and send more fines.
Well, I just used the writetothem site to contact all of my MEPs, they are: Glyn Ford, Roger Knapman, Neil Parish, Graham Watson and Caroline Jackson
Hi Thescouselander – thanks for the reply. MEP Glyn Ford is aware of the Pisa problem – so another letter will do no harm at all.
@Andy,
Welcome back! Moving money between countries has never been cheap – and Italian banks love their charges.
As for getting money back – don’t hold your breath – but hold on to any payment receipt for a few years. You never know…
With a little luck someone will have a go at checking whether the Pisa cameras have been officially certified, although I imagine the Pisa authorities will be working to cover any such problems after the recent case in Milan.
http://italychronicles.com/italian-traffic-light-scams/
“My biggest fear now is that the Italians now know that i paid the fine. If this is a real scam they will open the flood gates and send more fines.”
Judging from the continual flow of comments here, which often seem to be about Pisa – if this is a scam – the floodgates are already open.
At least what is happening here might, I repeat, might, get the Pisa lot and others to check this out. Fewer comments here mean fewer fines. At least I hope so.
All the best to one and all,
Alex
Hi again,
Surprisingly my MEP has emailed me back already (very efficient!). Unfortunately the news is not good, here is the reply:
Roger Knapman MEP has asked me to thank you for your email and to reply. He has in fact investigated this issue in the past as we have had previous complaints – both about Italian cities and some French equivalents.
To be frank there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Traffic regulations and their enforcement are entirely matters for the national governments or local authorities concerned and they are not amenable to external pressure. The only way you can challenge this is to engage a good lawyer in Italy and try to argue your case through the Italian courts. However it is probably cheaper and certainly easier just to pay whatever fines they impose.
The only way in which your position has been weakened by the EU is that it is now easier for foreign authorities to enforce their judgments elsewhere in the EU. Luckily, however, we have not reached the stage, and hopefully will not, when the EU extends the Italian system to British cities.
Best wishes
Piers Merchant
Assistant to Roger Knapman MEP
So it looks like we are on our own and the EU is powerless to do anythinig about this scam.
To be honest, I feel at the moment that I just might create a website highlighting everything bad about visiting Italy. Childish maybe but it will probably make me feel better and if I could deter just a few visitors maybe I could get one back on the system.
Well, on the letter I have received it’s not the same IBAN number it’s:
IBAN IT 28 0760114000000059900076
BIC (swift code) BPPIITRRXXX
But maybe the issue comes from my bank because I thought the IBAN numer was enough…
Merci, however
De rien Juliette!
Now:
The BIC code BPPIITRRXXX is for:
POSTE ITALIANE Rome S.P.A. BPPIITRRXXX ROMA
From this site:
http://www.swift.com/biconline/
It’s for the Italian post office which is based in Rome. The Italian post office is also a bank.
Can you check the IBAN please? It does not appear to be correct. Maybe a zero is missing. These codes are confusing!
You could have a go at checking it yourself – try ‘IBAN checker’ on Google or the same in French on Google.fr
Some IBAN checking services will give you the name and address of the bank concerned.
à bientôt,
Alex
Yes you are right,
I have forgotten the “Z” on the IBAN code, which is :
IT 28 Z 0760114000000059900076
Now I can pay
A bientôt (but not in Pisa)
Juliette
Hi, I am going to Itlay early next year to Milan with the my company I work woodFX for to carry out a Carpentry & Joinery contract for 6 weeks.
As I will be driving the works van around I am just checking out the rules for driving abroad in Italy.
Just been reading the info up here and I am a bit worried about the fines they seem to hand out.
Any tips would be appreciated.
Some useful info here, Thanks
Hi, I just received a fine for driving in a restricted zone in Pisa from October 2007. For some reason the letter was sent non-registered to the wrong address (33 instead of 23) to my address in Canada. It is quite a coincidence that I actually received it because I moved from that address in the almost 1 year it took for them to send it. As with many tourists I was not aware of the restricted zones during my vacation. Is it safe to assume that I cannot be expected to pay for a fine that was sent to the wrong address? Thanks for your help.
Hi Joiner,
Actually I’ve written a couple of other posts which you might find useful:
Driving in Northern Italy
http://italychronicles.com/driving-in-northern-italy/
And Speed Cameras in Italy
http://italychronicles.com/speed-cameras-in-italy/
- if you scroll down you’ll find details of Italian speed limits in both Kmh and mph too – which could be useful.
In general you do need to keep your wits about you. And watch out for drivers not anticipating actions, and not bothering with direction indicators.
Accelerate briskly away from traffic lights, or you will be beeped. Italians are impatient when at the wheel, although they have slightly more patience up here in the north. Do not use your mobile when driving, even if many Italians do.
Wear a seat belt, although again not all Italians bother – but you will be fined if stopped.
Other things to watch out for are police ‘check points’ which occur from time to time and are manned by sub-machine gun toting cops.
Always keep all documents: driving licence, passport, insurance certificate and log book with you while driving – but never leave them in your van. And do not leave anything of value – gps system for example in your van. These are nicked quite frequently even when vans are left parked for short periods.
As for parking – it is not always easy to find spots here, and when you do, watch out for residents only parking – yellow lines on the road – sorry I said blue – I was wrong (Thanks to fellow Milan resident Andy for correcting me). The areas with blue lines are where you need to pay to park.
Within the Cerchia dei Bastioni (see my post on the Ecopass zone) area of Milan residents with a pass can park for free in areas with blue lines after 7 in the evening.
White lines indicate free parking.
You can park in the blue lined areas with a ‘gratta e sosta’ card, which you can buy from bar/tobacconists. I think the instructions are in English, or you don’t have to buy a card and can pay via a text from your mobile. You need to register for this service here: http://sostamilanosms.atm-mi.it/SostaMilanoSMS/IWeb/Home.aspx
Info is all in Italian alas. Probably simpler to just by the gratta e sosta – rub and park cards.
You may have to watch out for the Ecopass area of central Milan. You can buy Ecopasses from bar/tobacconists or pay by credit card via an online system.
If you do not pay you will be fined.
I’ll write a little more when it comes to mind.
Hope that helps, and feel free to ask questions.
Oh and you might like the 442 pub, which shows football matches and other sport and is run by some great people who speak English!
http://italychronicles.com/four-four-two/
Cheers,
Alex
Hi Thomas,
So you moved house did you? Clever, if potentially expensive way of avoiding paying Pisa fines
Seeing as they do not know where you live, so to speak, and even though you should always be a good citizen and pay fines, if they get fine notification letters returned with ‘no longer at this address’ on them, then I imagine the matter will end there. I doubt whether they will be sending out someone to Canada, to the wrong address, to hunt you down!
And as it was a non-registered letter sent to the wrong address, then that also means you really had no way of knowing you got a fine.
In the circumstances, I would probably, I stress ‘probably’, just throw the letter in the bin.
Up to you whether you pay or not. Of course I would pay, but I am not you…
All the best,
Alex
Hey Alex,
What part of Milan do you live in? LOL. In our area the YELLOW lines are for resident parking and the blue lines are where you need the ‘gratta e sosta’ card – and the times of operation (i.e. when you should pay) will be on a sign in that particular ‘block’. So, for instance, many blue lined areas may be fine for parking free overnight (as they are in my area) and you only have to start paying from, say, 8 a.m. Don’t ever park in the yellow lined areas – you can be towed away to the pound and, from what I understand, that can be very expensive.
Big thanks Andy – you are right – I was getting my yellows and blues mixed up!
I’ve corrected the comment above and credited you for pointing out the error of my ways.
We’ve got lots of blue lines near us and they always seem to be occupied by residents throughout the day! But no excuse.
Well done for the sharp eyes and for reading.
Cheers,
Alex
Some final information from me on fines… I wrote to my MP in early September about the issue of UK motorists being fined by Italian police. The new Minister for Europe, Caroline Flint replied with what I thought was a helpful letter and I have quoted from her reply.
“The Home Office has advised that the EU Mutual Recognition of Financial Penalties Framework Decision, part of the Criminal Justice Act 2008, will, once implemented, allow financial penalties imposed in one EU Member State to be transferred and enforced in another.”
“As we have received so many enquiries about this matter, we have added some information to our travel advice for Italy on our website http://www.fco.gov.uk) to warn travellers of the restricted traffic zones and the possibility of receiving a fine if the restricted zone is entered without an exemption pass. This will hopefully forewarn tourists to Italy and prevent further fines.”
We’ve not long returned from a holiday in Italy and as well as driving, we also used the train to visit Florence. There were frequent services, ran on time, were clean and cost very little. I therefore recommend using the train to visit Florence.
A slight sting in the tail is that yesterday I received an invoice from Sixt car hire for “airport surcharges and administration fee”. Not sure that that’s about so it’s back to dealing with another bill from our Italian holiday!
Arrivederci!
@ Paul – I would like to see the dispute form!
@ Joe – Glad you like the blog!
Sorry to hear about yet more fines – it never seems to end.
If you would like to send me the documents, then please do – send it to :
contact@blogfromitaly.com(email address has been munged!)
Thanks,
Alex
Hi,
It seems that I´m another victim of the Italian traffic mafia. In summer 2007 me (Austrian) and my girlfriend spent two weeks in the North of Italy driving around in a rented car. Some months later we got informed by our car rental company that violations of “circulating in a traffic zone without authorisationt” in Florence and Milano, so they took €50 respetively €60 from my credit card. Now I received another letter from the Municipality Of Pisa accusing also accusing me of a traffic zone issue in Pisa. I´ve to pay 115 euros which will go up to 187.50 euros after 60 days.
However, I read in this and other blogs before that the official delay for the fine to be legal is 360 days after the authority gets your contact details from the car company. I have written evidence (i.e. a letter from my car rental company saying they charge me 12 euros admin fees) that the car company informed the authotities on October 5 2007. My letter from the Municipality Of Pisa dates from November 10 2008 (i.e. more than 360 days).
Do I have to pay now or would this make the fine really illegal? (Guess this could also be interesting for Joe)
Any kind of help would be appreciated.
Regards,
Rich
Alex – I have never received the registered post letter. Surely I should have done to make it legal?
I really, really feel that no-one should pay. If we do they will continue with this very unfair “scam”. If people refuse to pay then they might realise that it is going to more bother than it is worth.
Can all those of us who have been caught (and infuriated, not to mention the stress caused) unite and fight these brutes through the courts?
The stress is just hell.
I’ve just read some of the entries and I agree with Ross 19 April 07, I’m seriously beginning to believe this may be a scam between the hire car companies and the local municipality. Our hire car was also from Hertz and we have so far received 3 fines – now over 18 months since we were in Italy.
By the way, my fines comes from Florence, not Pisa.
I’m not sure how to get you the form…I’ll look at the website in greater depth to find an email address. The dispute form I downloaded was from the website indicated on the fine/sanction form. After inputing the proper codes and password I could access my fine information, view the picture of my rental car in the restricted zone, and also download the dispute form.
I have good news (for me). After trying to translate the dispute form I finally relented and called the English phone number on my fine(s) and spoke with a nice lady named Sylvia Martini. I explained that I had been in Florence and had driven to the hotel in order to check in. I didn’t intend to drive around Florence because it’s frankly difficult. After checking in I returned the vehicle to the airport rental office. I have in my possession a letter from the hotel indicating my date of check in and dates of stay. The letter also indicates that I drove in the restricted zone in order to access the hotel. The letter goes on to request on my behalf that the fine be dropped because they should have sent my automotive/rental information to the authorities on the date of check-in in order to have any potential fine waived. Long story short, I emailed this letter to Ms. Martini and a few days later received an email indicating my fines had been waived.
I suspect unless you have a legitimate reason to drive a vehicle in the restricted area (e.g. driving to your hotel) you will pay the fine. I came upon this when I lived in Mexico City many years ago. On certain days you could drive in the city with the proper sticker on the windshield and if you didn’t have the sticker, you could receive a fine. I’m pleased to know I no longer have to worry about what would happen if I chose not to pay this fine from Italy. I simply do not know those ramifications, especially if you live on the European continent.
- Paul Stone
USA
I thought I was alone here, till I found this blog. My mom and I traveled to Italy in March 2007. We rented a car from Thrifty in Florence, but upon arriving at the car rental co. they didnt have our car and sent us across the street to a small car rental dealer. We drove to Pisa and through Tuscany, and back to Florence.
Earlier this year I receieved a speeding ticket from Italy with the same “the road conditions were such that the offender could not be stopped without causing danger to other vehicles” as Trond wrote on this blog back in January ’07. The ticket was a certified letter – which I’ve never received before!…was kinda excited/nervous till I found out what it was, then I was pissed. The ticket was for 173 Euros which I paid by bank transfer, which the bank tellers had a heck of a time figuring out how to do, since the ticket was in Italian. And the ticket said it was from Comune di Riomaggiore – Polizia Municipale.
I paid it as I knew I’d like to return to Italy one day. (The whole time my mom saying that it was the maffia.)
I thought it was all over and done with till I received another violation in the mail yesterday – this one was not a registered letter. But they did throw .85 euros into my fine for postage.
My fine is for 108.04 euros + postage and it says that the “locality of verification” was PZA DELL ‘UNITA” ITLAIANA-VIA PANZANI — does anyone know where this is???
The violation date is 2007-03-22 …. now I know that things move slowly in Italy, as I’ve read in the above blogs, but this was a crazy long time ago!!
The info listed for if I wanted to do a bank transfer is:
Bank: Cassa di Risparmio di Firenze
Beneficiary: Corpo di Polizia Municipale di Firenze N.O. Verbali e Notifiche
Account #: 77/00
Bank Codes: IT60P0616002832000000077C00 SWIFT CRFIIT3F
I will be paying this through their website http://www.emo.nivi.it – which I’ve already logged into, as they give you a user name and password, and there is also a photo of the rear of the car I was driving..with the date. Which really could have been placed on there digitally, if this were a scam. It’s not like they show my face in the car driving with the violation sign in view as well! But I’m paying it cause I will be returning to Italy in March and I’d like to not be contacted by the police. I also wanted to rent a car again, but after all this, I’m not too sure.
Just wanted to post my sucky experience….
Okay, so I discovered where this was …PZA DELL ‘UNITA” ITLAIANA-VIA PANZANI.
It’s in Florence, and apparently I drove through it while trying to return the rental car, with the agency being on a one way street. I remember having to drive around in a huge cirlce in order to get down the street the car rental place was on. So I can now see how I didnt see a sign about a “road reserved for other vehicles”, when i was worried about not driving down one of the numerous one ways in the area!
I’m still pissed…
More stories, more fines. It’s difficult to know what to do about this, aside from saying don’t drive in Italy.
Some form of park and ride scheme would be useful – maybe an Italian entrepreneur reading this could come up with something.
Thing is, as far as I can understand, these cameras are designed to catch naughty Italians more than tourists. I’d love to know just how many tourists drive around Italy every year.
Perhaps some form of pass could be paid upon renting a car which would automatically inform the municipal authorities solely for those on vacation in Italy. Need more info before proposing this as a realistic solution though.
Sorry to hear about yet more people being caught out.
Kind regards to one and all,
Alex
Alex – re my previous email, as I have never received a registered letter (and the 60 days have now passed) are we still liable to pay? We have heard nothing more.
Hi Diane,
Have another look at the Time Limits section in the main post on the surface of this ocean of comments, and see if you are out of the woods.
I tend to think you are not, in view of the fact that they know you were the driver, in which case there is the 360 days which the authorities have to send out the official fine.
If you do not pay and they try to up the fine, then you could argue that seeing as you had received no official notification – ie registered letter you did not think you should pay on the grounds that the initial fine notification could have been from anyone.
Hope that helps.
Let us know how you get on.
Regards,
Alex
Thanks for jumping in Ian.
For what it’s worth, I think your advice to Marie is sound.
If the notification is not in order, then there is little the Pisa authorities can do – although to be fair to them, and as I’ve only recently discovered, Pisa is one of the few places in Italy that has put in systems allowing it to send out fines internationally – in other ZTLs foreign drivers are just ignored – simply because the local authorities/police forces involved do not have the systems in place to send notifications out of Italy.
There is a remote chance that your passport may be flagged, but knowing how disconnected Italy is, I doubt this will happen. Italy has three major police forces: the carabinieri – which do not bother too much with traffic offences, the polizia – which do bother with driving offences, and the very local municipal police – which deal with minor offences such as parking and these ZTLs. For a passport to be flagged, the municipal police would need to inform the Polizia – who also check passports when you enter Italy. However, I very much doubt whether this is happening, and it will not happen for a good time yet. Italy does not even have an e-gov system yet, and the good old boys in power simply do not understand technology.
Put very simply, if you receive a registered notification – then you should really pay – if you do not – then it could potentially be a scam – and I believe you are within your rights to treat it as such and ignore the things. Indeed, the credit card companies should not really be deducting sums until a formal registered notification has been received by those who committed any alleged offence. Even if you do receive a fine, you can try to dispute it – and slowly but surely, and again to their credit, the Pisa people seem to be gearing up for dealing with appeals received in languages other than Italian. At the end of the day though, the admin costs must be exceeding fine generated income – especially when people appeal.
Again – these are my opinions, and I am not a lawyer, nor do I claim to be an expert on the subject of the payment of fines received while in a car in Italy. My aim is to inform, and assist, if I can.
As Ian stated – do what you think is best – although reading the post above and the comments may help you make a more informed decision.
Kind regards to both of you,
Alex
Hello to all you fellow bad reckless drivers who like me received a fine for driving in a restricted area in Florence.
I was in Florence in May 2007 and rented a car. In March 2008 the rental company took €50 from my credit card. At the time I believed it was for a speeding fine or parking fine. I didn’t argue with it and happily paid it.
However, I have only now, 23rd February 2009, received a letter in the post from the italian authorities telling me I must pay €118 for driving in a restricted area.
The letter arrived by ordinary post. I intend to ignore this letter and wait and see what happens.
I will not be paying this fine. It is now 19 months later. There is a legal saying in Ireland ‘Justice delayed is justice denied’. I dont need a legal expert to explain that to me. Surely there must be some common legislation throughout the EU.
I have also instructed my credit card company not to authorise any payments to this company without contacting me.
I am also returning to Italy in April 09 but I dont intend on renting a car this time.
I will write again if I hear anymore about this. I dont believe I will.
I know that if a foreign tourist in Ireland incurred a motoring fine like this the Irish authorities would not persue them across Europe. The Irish authorities dont even persue motorists across the borded to Northern Ireland so I douubt very much that the lazy Italians will.
Your fellow bad reckless driver, Alan
I would like to pay the Pisa, Italy “circulating in restricted traffic zone on via Roma” traffic fine of Euro115 by mail from the US, but I do not see an clear address on the notification letter to mail the check. Does anyone know the correct address in Pisa to mail payment? I do not want to use a bank transfer since there is no good way to track it, and I have already cut a check in Euros (at considerable cost here in the US). This kind of traffic violation is indeed frustrating for visitors and will impact future visits to Italy for many people I expect. Thanx for your help….randy
Have a parking fine in a restricted area and circulating in restricted area in Pisa. I initially sent the tickets back with a letter stating that I did not understand what I did wrong. This probably avoided the dreaded high administrative fee from the rental car company because they already had my name and address. My question is this. Has anybody been charged on the rental car credit card for the actual fines incurred? Honestly, how are they going to get the money from anyone in the US or Canada or any country outside of Europe unless they are able to charge back to the rental car credit card? I feel sorry for Europeans as they may have some leverage, but I don’t see what leverage they have outside of Europe? I have read many posts about administrative charges incurred by the rental car companies, but have not read one case of fines actually being paid by the rental car credit card. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated. I would probably pay if It was easy to pay with credit card, but not with exorbitant wire transfer fees. I don’t even know where to go to get a check in Euros.
Hi Earl,
“but have not read one case of fines actually being paid by the rental car credit card. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.” If I get you, then the rental car company will not try to charge the actual fine(s) against the credit card used for renting the car, but will often charge an administration fee for the time they spend telling the police who the driver of the car at the time of the offences was.
If the rental company did pay the fine directly, then that would give you no time to defend yourself, and you would not be happy! And as sometimes happens here, fines are sent out regarding cars which may have been many miles away from where they were caught on camera. For example, if the rental car company used your credit card info to pay for an offence in Rome, when you where in Naples all the time – you would be pretty cross.
Anyway, as I understand it, rent car agencies are not authorised to do to charge everything and anything to your credit card. Look at the rental contract for details of what they feel they can charge you.
If that does not help, let me know.
Alex
Alex, thank you for the reply. As stated, they already have my name and address, so no administrative fees have been charged to the CC. I have contacted the rental car company and requested info on their rental car contract and the contract fine print. As this was 10 months ago, I have the credit card charge receipt but threw the contract out. So, I don’t have a copy of the rental car agreement. I really don’t see what leverage they have on anyone outside of Europe and that is what I am trying to determine.
Earl, the short answer is that they have no leverage with regard to people outside of Europe. They have to rely on honesty and moral duty.
As I have stated before a few times, there is a remote possibility that the names of those who have not paid fines will be flagged and they may stopped when trying to enter Italy. This does not happen as yet, but one day this may become the norm. Another scenario is that if you stay in the same Italian region in the future then your name may be recognised and you may be visited by the local police. The key word is ‘may’ – again, I am not aware of this actually happening. And, from what I have ascertained, Pisa is one of the few Italian authorities which has systems in place for collecting fines at an international level. This is why Pisa is the Italian city which is mentioned most often in the comments here. I wrote a post on this: http://italychronicles.com/pisas-misunderstood-leanings/
There are, as far as I know, no international agreements or treaties that concern motoring offences committed by residents while driving abroad.
Within Europe there is talk of making motoring offences enforceable at European level, in that if for example someone from Britain commits an offence in Italy, then the fine for such offence may be collected by motoring authorities in Britain. I do not know if this system has been implemented.
Please note that I am not a lawyer, nor to I make any claim to being an expert on this matter. Any and all advice I may offer is informal and subject to confirmation via proper authorities and/or lawyers.
Best regards,
Alex
I want to take this opportunity on behalf of ALL the readers of this valuable information to THANK YOU wholeheartedly for your many efforts and articles. It has truly been helpful. I know it has helped me a great deal. Thanks again!
This subject has been discussed at length on numerous forums, notably Trip Advisor, and there is a very informative summary here: http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm Read it and form your own conclusions. That page is updated quite frequently and I look forward to seeing there updates regarding just how far the Italian municipalities will go to collect their money. It’s big money we’re talking about – a milion here, a million there – pretty soon it adds up to be a significant part of their income. Personally, I foresee the use of collection agencies unless a drop-off in tourism can be attributed to fines that total more than the cost of a trans-Atlantic plane ticket.
The Florence authorities are really exploiting foreign tourists my fine was 102 euro for the offence of “Moved around a restricted traffic area without authorization” I have no idea when or what this was but it seems execessive to me. If you want to avoid bogus driving fines I suggest you avoid the Florence area!
Alan, I have, after 9 months, received one of these letters, regarding moving in a restricted zone. It was not by registered post and more concerning is the date on the photo / infringement does not match the date I was there ! Did you hear anything after not paying ? I am in some what baffled as to what to do. Also, I have emaled them to contest the date, we were with another family the whole holiday and I assume they can be valid witnesses (and more over, they did not receive a fine and followed us the entire time).
Interested in your views, I have 20 days apparently to pay up
My wife yesterday (29 June 2009) received a fine for 101 Euros for the same thing reported by another correspondent, i.e. “Moved around a restricted traffic area without authorization”. How would one even know?! We were visiting Florence last September and we live in New zealand. The fine is very expensive in New Zealand dollars and definitely over the top. It appears official, so is probably not a scam, but rude on the part of the authorities.
Yesterday I was telling a Chinese student friend of how the Comune Di Firenze (Florence metropolitam authorities) had fined me 103 euro for “MOVED AROUND A RESTRICTED TRAFFIC AREA” He told me that he and a party of 10 Chinese Malasian students from Glasgow University were also fined 70 euro each in Florence because they all bought travel tickets and they were not told and unaware that the tickes needed to be verified.
This is appaling it must be stopped! I’m a coward and paid the fine but I hope someone does take a legal stand against them like Interpol or the FBI !
After a long battle, I have settled the fine and have contacted my local legal and foreign affairs MEP. They did respond and wrote to a number of key people in Italy on this subject. I suggest you all do the same. In the mean time I wrote to nivi credit the following as this really is very unnaceptable.
bla bla…
Anyway I have now made the payment, and will not appeal as no one succeeds, however I have contacted a number of MEP’s in the legal and foreign affairs area and have stated you are hiding behind EU membership to penalise innocent tourists and enforce payment (if you were not an EU member, I would NOT have paid). If a legal case ever arises, and this is deemed excessive, or illegal, under EU case law you will be obliged to refund all fees, charges, and costs.
I will pursue this beyond all comprehension, and as I stated I have cancelled our 2010 holiday to Italy which will cost the country more in lost tourism revenue than this fine will gain them, the fine amount is totally excessive and outrageous.
Hi Jason – keep plugging away.
Although the Italian authorities are within their rights, lots of people are not happy.
Is there anywhere else in Europe where fines are a real problem? I have not heard of anywhere, but perhaps someone else has.
As for the comments being in some odd order, I’m not too sure why this is the case. I’ve had a look around and found that I am not alone in this odd order of comments thing. One remedy seems to be to dig into my database, but that scares me. Last time I did that, my site fell over!
What I might do is to close comments on this post, and add a new post with new comments – which should be in the right order!
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Best,
Alex
Note to everyone – the comment order appears to be a bug in the system I use to publish this site.
As far as I know there is no solution as of yet.
Once something comes along, hopefully the comment order will become more logical, as it once was.
Sorry, and thanks for reading, and commenting.
Alex
And why do the posted entries not appear in date order?
Hi,
Just to say that my son paid the fines yesterday and by the time he paid the cost of the bank draft it was about £317. Just for parking in the wrong spot. It is just ridiculous! He has friends in Italy who said they would not pay it but to get a lawyer onto it would have cost even more and he might have ended up having to pay double the amount. If he never wanted to go back to Italy well I suppose he wouldn’t have paid it but he does.
It really would put you off going to the country and I think it is time something was done about it. Had it been one fine for the offence, well that would have been acceptable but four for the same thing is beyond belief! They have some nerve that’s all I can say and makes you wonder if they really want tourists. Does the government know what the polizia are up to – I wonder.
There’s a lot of inaccurate information, incorrect assumptions, false logic etc in the comments on this page, much of it in the direction of “they can’t catch ME”. Once again, my advice is to read this page: http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
All over Europe, municipalities depend on fines for income. And they are getting serious about coordinating fine collection.
Hi Richard,
You are probably right with regard to the comments on this page – but people do tend to get a little het up when they receive unexpected fines.
But, as you almost say, they can catch you, and they will – they make quite a bit of money out of it. In Italy though, they have been several reports of municipalities tampering with their cameras to increase their income.
Still, I would recommend that others go visit the link you mention – lots of useful information there.
Best,
Alex
Hi, I have received, in Canada, a notification of violation for driving in a restricted area in Rome. It’s been 18 months since I was there. This did come by registered mail and does threaten to send the ticket to the DEMO for collection.
My question, has anyone had experience in not paying these fines? What happens after a year or two? I might never want to go back to Italy but I would like to travel to France and the UK and I wonder if there are any travel ramifications from not paying. Also, if you haven’t paid have you heard from this collection group?
Thanks
Sheryl
Sheryl,
While not paying is an option, there is evidence that it is not a good idea. Please follow this link and read the section ‘What to do about it if you are ticketed and fined?’ and then the sub-section ‘Non-EU residents’.
http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
From what you will read, it looks as though non-payment could turn out to be more expensive than you would imagine – but do also look at the main post way above – there are 7 pages, alas. Look for the section on Time Limits – your fine might be outside them.
Do also check the circumstances of your fine too – you might have grounds for it to be annulled, for example driving to and from a hotel you booked in a restricted traffic area.
As far as I am aware, not paying a fine in Italy is unlikely to have consequences in other European countries, but this could change, and may have already. The best option is to simply pay up and forget about it.
Hopefully someone else will chip in too.
Best,
Alex
Hi
We have had a total of 5 fines for driving in restricted areas in Florence in August 08. When the first two arrived I emailed and objected, explaining that there were four people in the car, all of whom were qualified and experienced drivers. None had seen any signs. I didn’t take the same action with the subsequent 3 fines but wrote to one of Florence’s MEP’s and our MEP to complain.
I have had no response from the Italian MEP but our MEP raised a question with the relevant committee in the European Parliament and sent me the response. There is now to be a requirement within all European countries for clarity in signage and that common signs should be displayed in different languages. It will take time, as these things do, but at least if the Italians are made to clean up their act it will be something. If signs are then not apparent people will have grounds to Appeal.
We recently received 3 Registered Letters demanding payment within 60 days. No idea what has happened to the other two.
We love Italy but our view has now been soured by the tourist rip-off tactics imposed by the Italian authorities. Wont be going again, so voting ‘with our feet’ so to speak.
Has anybody got advice re paying fines by credit card? That would be so much simpler.
My notification arrived 13 months after the offence, Is this a record?
I can read Italian and saw no restriction sign on the Via Roma. How can I challenge? In the UK you can go to court if you know you are innocent but that doesn’t seem to be an option provided by the Comune di Pisa.
Isnt the whole thing a terrible bore, spoiling the Pisa experience in retrospect?
i have just recieved a parking ticket from sardina from retal car i hired not hertz., the fine is for 76.25 euros to be 112.25 in 60 days the alleged offence was for parking on grass and th roadside to go to a beach. With many italian cars doing the same, no signs but only the my hire car with the ticket .>?>? how strange, the offence was on 20/07/08 and this arrived 434 days later , as you said 150 days is maxium time to inform me! nivi emo.nivi .it can this be for real ?? PS The hire company swiped my card manuel and i made sure the slip was returned to me when i returned the car. Also i got scammed by avis car rental at menorca airport where i hired a car paid cash for hire then got hit £300 on my credit card when back home hence never let them have your details when cars returned
Hi,
I got a note through the letter box yesteday, telling me that there was an international letter to pick up: it had to be signed for. Intrigued, I hurried along to my local post office today to pick it up. I signed for it. Doh.
It was a Violation of the Highway Code notice. Apparently, when I was in Alghero, Sardinia on 29 May 2008I “entered illegally a resticted traffic area”. I was in Alghero on 29 May 2009, and I did hire a car on one day while I was there, though I can’t recall which day it was. The notice tells me I was caught on an approved video system, though there is nothing on the “emo” site to confirm this. What there is,though, are copies of what look like letters to and from the hire car company. The latest date stamp on them is 8 October 2008. By my calculation, that is some 364 days ago. I think the ******* are too late. And I’m going to tell them so. I’ll let you know what they say.
I’m with your earlier commenters: I like italy and generally, the italians. I’ve holidayed there four times, and spent lots of my hard earned income there.But this is not right. This system clearly targets tourists. I saw no sign, and probably wouldn’t have understood one if I had. This system suggestst an aggressive and insulting attitude to foreigners. It is most unsympathetic. Even assuming my objection is accepted, I’m not going back. I’ll spend my money somewhere else.
Regards
Richard
(Re my previous email: you will have spotted the deliberate error. The “offence” was committed on 29 May 2008, not 2009. That is, over 16 months ago. And whilst I appreciate Alex’s comment about the naturally dilatory italians, the delay in all these cases is suspicious. They miscalculated in my case, but it seems to me they are deliberately “taking it to the wire” so that no-one can really recall who, what, where, when, how or why. Putting to one side the actual time limit they give themselves, this delay is contary to what the lawyers would call “natural justice”. And I think I might make that point too….)
Richard
Excellent site Alex. I have just received a 110euro fine from Alghero in Sardinia – seems as though they are all at. I am an experienced european traveller and drive in Europe at least 4-5 times a year. I am also a frequent visitor to Italy and have a good knpwledge of their road traffic signs, yet I did not notice the sign in Alghero which I understand is very discreetly hidden and as such is proving a very valuable money earer for a City who is desperate for cash (The Italians are not noted for their willingness to pay taxes). I do understand that the Italian Government was fined heavily by the EU in 2002 for precisely the offence of deliberately targetting foreign motorists. They have probably fine tuned their procedures but are still in effect generating cash from this Council sponsored “Scam” My European MEP is taking this up in Brussels. I suggest if you have been affected, you should write to your MEP, – that is of course what they are there for.
As to the question of recovery of the fine, what can they do in the |UK to recover this money
Dear all you fellow bad reckless drivers, I joined this group recently and I learned from reading your blog that I am not the only one to recieve these traffic fines after one year or more…
I would like to summerize what I learned:
1 – in the issue of transfering this data to credit bureau or to the national/international police- I dont know enough.
2 – in the issue of the “forced paying” by the credit card that you gave to the car agency, I checked with Visa EU regualtions, and they are not entitled to debit you after more 3 monthes !!! If you are debited (for the fine or for the handling) , you can ask the Visa issuer of your card to cancel this transaction.
I hope you found this results helpful,
As far as I see, I will not pay…
Good luck to all of you,
Adi
I’m so glad to find this blog. My husband and I visited Italy in 10/08 and rented a car and drove all over Italy. Our daughter was studying for one semester in Montepulicano so we thought it would be perfect to visit her and see all of Italy by car. I even communicated with her Professor that arranges the studying abroad program for hotel information, etc., in various cities. He gave us his advice on a hotel in Florence. Our hotel was in the old historic section of the city. We were not advised by ANYONE, the Professor, car rental agency, hotel, etc., to be aware of the limited traffic area. We did watch for any signage with a line running through or X or in red and did NOT see any during our drive around Florence. One late afternoon we needed to do 1 load of laundry and found one not far from our hotel but too far to walk with a load so we drove, as we could not find a parking place, we circled 3 times before stopping and parking. We did not see a sign and we definately were not the only car parked along the street. Like many others here, we received the additional charges by our rental car agency and we contested because we were not aware of any violation and they couldn’t advise us of the violation so I was successful in having them reversed. Then several months later (not sure how long at this time) we received a letter/notification from the police so my husband did some research and learned he could appeal but not until we received the registered traffice violation. Therefore, when we received the THREE separate registered letters he signed for them (apparently our mistake?) We are being charged 107.45 EU for each one and they are all within 10 mins or less. After reading that we can appeal however if we do not win our appeal we will have to pay double we are now too afraid to appeal. In reading above I found where someone indicated that if you receive more than one violation for the same incident within one hour you only have to pay for one? Does anyone know if you must appeal the other two and if so on what grounds? Or do we just pay for one and not address the other two? Thank you so much for all of this great information. We live in the US and now I’m scared to death that out of no where we could receive something similar from Pisa or Rome or Sorrento or Naples or Sienna or Montepucliano or ???? We loved Italy and are so disappointed with this deceptive way of entrapment. We may not visit Italy again, however, some of the cruises we would like to take originate in Rome or Venice so we are too fearful of what might happen to us in landing at the airports and don’t want to take any chances.
Hi Alex; I received a violation dated May24,2009 for “circulating on roads reserved for other vehicles without authorization” The violation allegedly occurred on May 24, 2008, at 204pm. After having my attorney check it out I decided to pay the fine. One week after paying the fine, I receieved another notice, this time dated October 2, 2009, for a similar violation, this one ” circulating in limited traffic area without authorization”. This allegedly occurred also on May 24, 2008, at 157pm. Any comments?
Hi Jim,
Sorry to hear about the second fine, as I’m sure are you.
The situation regarding the receiving of two fines one after the other is a little complex. I was speaking to some Italian lawyers about this the other day.
It is possible to escape these second fines, but, you need to show that there was no way you could have avoided the second photo. In other words, and this is where it is fiddly, if you could have exited from the ZTL, but did not, then a second, third etc. etc. fine produced by a ZTL camera is perfectly valid. I think leaving and then re-entering a ZTL is counted as being good reason to fine you too – but you would need to have a lawyer confirm this.
I’ve no idea whether there is a limit to how many fines one can accrue or in what time period.
With a little luck one of the lawyers I know will chip in and help us all understand just how many fines one can receive as a result of entering one of these zones.
Best,
Alex
PS If you need the name of an Italian lawyer (one based in Milan, not Pisa – let me know)
We also got such a letter from “Corpo di Polizia Municipale di Firenze” and we have to pay €98,10 because we were driving in a restricted zone. We don’t remember this as it took place in May 2008. They made a picture of our bus. I searched at the internet for more information and found info at the website of our dutch road/traffic organisation. They also show a photo of the restricted area sign, so you can see it here:
http://www.anwb.nl/rechtshulp,/voor-wie/vakantieganger/Boetes-in-Itali-.html
It seems to be legal so we probably will have to pay the money. I will first call the ANWB legal aid to know more about it, for example what will happen if I don’t pay.
Roos (Netherlands).
Hi Alex,
I am a UK resident. I received a fine today dated 01/08/10 for driving in Rome on 10/09/08. The rental company was contacted by the Italian authorities in December 12/08, which means the date of the infaction is > 365 days after the authorities got my detais.
Is 365 days the time limit they have to issue the fine or is it 2 years?
if it is the former, do I contact them to let them know that they have been too slow so I won’t pay, or do I just ignore it.
If it is the later, I drove on that day to a car park near to our hotel in the historical centre to drop off our bags. Would it be too late for the hotel to contact the authorities to wave the fine?
Thanks for your help
Cedric
Much as I would like to, I don’t see the relevance of the 60 day limit for the owner to respond with the identity of the driver. Particularly in the case of my son from the UK who hired a car in Germany and has, supposedly, committed a violation in Rome. I would presume that the Rome authority is bound by the 360 day limit to proceed, but that only starts when the driver data is received, regardless of how long it took to arrive; why should Rome be penalised for the inefficiency of the Germans?
The offence in question was committed on 30 July 2008. According to the papers lodged, the enquiry of the rental company is dated 14 November 2008 and the response is stamped as received on 7 September 2009; the demand is dated 29 December 2009. Without the co-operation of the rental company (Budget) and going to court, I have no basis to challenge the timing of events, even though I suspect that the efficient Germans replied in good time and that the response (the hire agreement) was not date stamped until someone got round to processing it.
Hi, I have just had 3 fines at €115 each after 17 months since the offence, it has been over 360 days since the rental company told the police my identity. What should I do?
Hi I have just had 3 zone fines at €115 each, but it has been over 360 days since the police knew of my identity (can prove it). Do I have to pay the fines
I received 3 registered letters from Alghero in Sardinia. Containing…you guessed it 3no fines for entering an illegally restricted traffic area. The offences were committed 467 days ago! All 3 offences were committed at the same time 3 days in a row. I’m sure I made errors while driving in Sardinia however after the large amount of time that has passed how could I honestly remember or more importantly how could I defend myself (i.e. maybe the sign that I was supposed to have seen could have been vandalized or had a tree growing in front of it). As I said, I’m sure I made mistakes, and the fines may have been genuine however to receive 3no fines (totalling €330) after nearly a year and a half after the offence with the note “the owner of the vehicle, as indicated by the competent authorities, must be considered guilty of the infraction until proven otherwise”…….i.e. guilty until proven innocent.
I have been to Italy twice since and will not return to Sardinia and probably not Italy again, these idiots are taking money from you and me and the good people of Italy who make a living from tourism.
All the best,
Mark
I think I am in much better position than everyone else – I’m Russian… but still – the same story : we rented a car in Rimini and were seen crossing into ZTL area in Rome . It might be amusing but the limited traffic area sign we apparantly violated can be found on google map – http://maps.google.ru/maps?hl=ru&rlz=1T4GGLR_ruRU329RU329&newwindow=1&q=italy+map&lr=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=%D0%98%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%8F&gl=ru&ei=q0hnS6KGOo7z-QaHmuWdBw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQ8gEwAA
There is one thing that I do not understand – there is no internationally (under Vienna convention of 1968) recognised traffic sign which prohibits access to the area, only a note about limited traffic area written in italian. Do they think that everyone should speak italian ? One should be at least notified about ZTL areas (of course I only learned about this later after “commiting” the offence). It all looks like a tourist trap to me.
I contested 39 EUR charged to me by the rental company, and got it back. Though I had to cancel my CC.
To make the story even more fun – the rental company initially billed me twice the same amount. It took me 6 months to get money back (it was returned not on my card but by Western Unoin) and only after I called German head office of the rental company.
So next time I would not rent a car in Italy.
Anyway they are not going to get anything out of me, not even the postage (the italian taxpayers should cover the postage, I reckon)……I cannot imagine them collecting anything in Russia.
I too received the dubious restricted traffic zone violation just today. It’s terribly infuriating and certainly does not make me want to travel back to Italy especially since thee assumed violations occurred in 9/08. My question is this? I contacted my rental company they provided the italian authorities my info on 1/26/09 (date stamped 2/3/09 at the Florence Police). They then sent me the letter advising me of the fine in letter dated 1/21/10 which I received on 3/3/10. The time from the date on the letter to the police to the date of the fine letter is exactly 360 days. However my argument is that notification has to take place within 360 days. Even if we are to give them the extra time for them to be notified by the rental agency, they are still outside the 360 day limit by the time I received the letter. Not that I expect this argument to get me far, but I am going to give it a try. In the end I have no plans to pay this fine as I am not a citizen of the EU, nor am I going to give out my credit card or banking information to any foreign web site/ govt. In fact the only time I used my credit card in italy was when I rented this car, then 4 months later I start getting random charges in Italy for everything from electronics to gas ($1300 total). Luckily my credit card co shut things down before it got worse, and credited me back the charges but that is going to be the last time any personal information gets shared overseas. In fact I actually thought this certified letter I received from the Italian police was going to say they jailed the douche who stole my credit card and there was going to be restitution paid to my credit card co. so I was happy to sign for it.
We visited Sardina in Aug 2009 and I today received letter and copies in italian only of offences in driving into the centre of Alghero 5 separate fines of 40 euros each plus adfmin fee of 40 euros and it looks like the hire car company intend to debit my credit card used when I booked the car
All these oversights by me were totally unintentional – not easy driving in a busy town! and some of the timings are within minutes of one and another ! II have never had any such problems whislt driving anywhere else abroad
I am really not happy and wonder what if anything i can do
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR CREATING THIS BLOG YEARS AGO. ALEX. I just found it and have gotten a headache from reading so many complaints, ridiculous stories, helpful advice and information. But the main thing this morning has done has made me realize I am not alone! For that I am so grateful. I feel much better and less stressed and worried. I received 2 notices of ‘infractions’ from Florence from a visit in June 2009 in the mail in Jan. 2010. After reading a while, I am going to contact AAA, who rented the car for me, and let them know they should inform all their clients NOT to drive in Italy until they become informed of this corrupt con game. I also plan on writing a letter to be published in the local newspaper. I may even try to contact a congressman/senator and see if they are aware of this shameful scam. Our area thrives on tourism and we would never treat our visitors who were lost or trying to get to their hotels and/or rental agencies like this. Mercy and compassion and empathy must not ‘translate’ with these authorities. All the other Italians I met and spent time with were wonderful!!! Real kind, thoughtful, helpful human beings. I am so sad that now I’ve been turned off to going back to what was my favorite country in Europe.
Hi Melinda,
Glad you found the information here moderately comforting and that it helped you feel less victimised.
Despite being first written way back in 2006, it continues to be one of the most ‘popular’ posts on Blog from Italy.
Through the years people have tried to do something about what does, at first sight, seem to be profiteering, but nothing has been done -I think Italian local authorities find the income too handy.
By all means write to a congressman. I hope he or she can stir up some mud -but I doubt it. It’d have to be someone capable of rattling Italy to the core.
Good luck. If you do move the odd mountain or two, please let us all know – and you might save another 15,000 people or so from some heartache. I hate to think how many people have now decided never to visit Italy or never to return.
I wonder if anyone has tried doing a cost benefit analysis re this pesky tourist tax?
All the best,
Alex
Hi, I will never visit Italy again.
I think the Italians have become too greedy, I received a notice from car rental company and money taken from my credit card. I stopped payment by phoning my credit card.
I now have fines from florence municipiality x2. I am not going to pay. September 09 offences commited now july 10. Will let you all know if they persist in chasing me for payment.They said circulating in limited traffic area twice in just over one hour.
I live in the UK so member of eu. I will sign for nothing if it comes from Italy or if I think it is anything to do with above.
Cheers Gordon.
I am from Australia and like a lot of people here, I have just received a traffic infringement from Pisa for “circulating in restricted traffic zone” from 21 Sept 2008. Am I going to pay – NO. Anyone paying a fine like this that is not from Europe is crazy. As far as I have researched there is no International reciprocal agreement with foreign countries. I emailed the fine to a friend in Italy. He said not to pay, not even bothering to appeal. They are full of hot air. They are just hoping to collect revenue from gullable tourists.
For the purpose of providing info to US (or perhaps non-EU) residents who received EMO letters, I have the following:
Two VTL violations July 07
Received first letter February 08 (regular mail, not certified)….ignored it.
Received second letter September 08 (also regular mail), ignored this one too.
Have heard nothing since, and it’s over 31 months since the violation.
You can draw your own conclusions about the consequences of nonpayment, I’ve certainly drawn my own.
This is very interesting from a legal point of view. Most jurisdictions have a time limit on prosecutions for motoring offences. In the UK it is 6 months. This is obvious really. We are all subject in the EC to the European Convention and you have to be able to have a fair trial. If you only get notified 18 months after the event that you are alleged to have committed a moving traffic offence, you can hardly be expected to remember whether, eg you were the driver or your partner was.
Where Italian law differs is that it distinguishes between Italians (who have to be notified within 150 days) and everyone else (360 days). I can say with some confidence, that at least in relation to EC citizens, such a distinction is illegal. Why do I say that? well the European court has already decided that it is. The case is called EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00.
In the 21st century no such distinction could be justified. After all, the hire company have your details on computer. A letter takes the same time to get from Roma to London as it does from Roma to Milan.
My guess is that the Italian government would not wish for their legislation to be challenged in the European Court, so for those of you facing fines imposed more than 210 days after the alleged offence (60 + 150), I would try sending a notice of appeal threatening to write to your MP, MEP, European Commission etc., and citing the above case.
For those of you who are notified within 150 days, then you will have to take your chances. What chance are you taking? Well the reciprocal enforcement legislation does provide for European Arrest Warrants! But hey! who wants to go on holiday in Italy anyway?
Hi Peter,
Very interesting what you say about this sticky situation –
“I can say with some confidence, that at least in relation to EC citizens, such a distinction is illegal. Why do I say that? well the European court has already decided that it is. The case is called EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00.”
Just the kind of information I had hoped this post may have unearthed. The text of the case you mention is here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?val=264059:cs&lang=en&list=264059:cs,250793:cs,246392:cs,&pos=1&page=2&nbl=13&pgs=10&hwords=C-224/00~&checktexte=checkbox&visu=#texte
There is also a bi-lingual version from which sections in Italian could be quoted at the Italian authorities.
Here is the case summary:
Member State which maintains in force a disproportionate difference in treatment between offenders based on the place of registration of their vehicles, by providing that where there is a breach of the highway code committed with a vehicle registered in that Member State, the offender has 60 days from the recording or notification of the offence in which to pay the minimum amount prescribed or to bring an appeal if he has not already paid the minimum amount, whereas where an infringement is committed with a vehicle registered in another State the offender must either immediately pay the minimum amount prescribed, or, if he wishes to contest the alleged infringement, he must provide security equal to twice the minimum amount, on pain of having his driving licence confiscated or his vehicle impounded, has failed to fulfil its obligations under Article 6 of the Treaty (now, after amendment, Article 12 EC).
In simple terms, if the Italian authorities cannot notify people from outside of Italy in the same time as it takes to notify Italian nationals, then the fine is invalid.
This would count for EC citizens, though not necessarily for those from outside of Europe.
Big thanks to you, Peter, for mentioning this.
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Brilliant blog – I stumbled on it while looking for info about an alleged traffic violation in Brescia. I really admire your tenacity & commitment to revealing the hidden mysteries of Italian motoring fines.
In January I received an €18 “administrative expenses” bill from Avis – charged to my credit card in December – for giving my name & address to Comune di Brescia. Avis enclosed a poor 2nd- or 3rd-generation photocopy of an undated “verbale” – in Italian – apparently from Brescia Municipal Police, not addressed to anyone. My tourist Italian is good enough to “get around”, but not enough to understand what the notice says, although it seems to relate to entering a ZTL last July (we were there at that time). Also, the text is partly obliterated by some of the official rubber stamps Italians love to plaster over everything, so is illegible even to a native. I have not had anything at all directly from Comune di Brescia.
I gather that a penalty notice must be sent by registered post. I assume the notice must also state the amount payable, when and by what means, and be addressed to a particular person by name (else why would they ask Avis for it?). So at present all I have is an unaddressed notice forwarded by a third party (Avis) by ordinary mail with an inkling of a potential unspecified fine that might in future be issued to someone for something. I do not regard that as official notification, or an obligation to pay anyone anything. The 360-day period expires on 27 June, so I’m not holding my breath. Also, from previous posts, the EMO procedure looks like an invitation to accept a reduced fine – like the UK fixed penalty system – without the hassle & potential extra cost of challenging the allegation. I’ll wait until I get my EMO notice to decide if it’s valid.
Anyhow, my credit card issuer subsequently reversed Avis’s charge when i rejected it as unsubstantiated because:
* Avis had not:
o identified the rental term/s and/or condition/s (all in Italian) under which it claimed payment
o supplied any evidence of the “administrative expenses” claimed, how they were calculated or where, when and/or how they were incurred.
* Neither Avis nor Comune di Brescia had supplied any evidence:
o of the nature of the supposed traffic violation
o that the alleged violation is legally valid
o that the alleged violation actually occurred
o of the penalty applicable for the alleged violation
o that any such penalty had been imposed
o that I am liable for any such penalty.
So, it seems worth reclaiming car hire admin charges if you have sufficient reason – if the “fine” is suspect or not proved, any associated fees & charges must therefore be equally invalid (someone mentioned that in an earlier post).
Your Important Update of 17-18 Feb mentioning an EC decision prompted me to peek at EU Human Rights issues, which has raised some very interesting questions about topics discussed in many previous posts. I’ll post about that later.
Hi Pablo,
Glad you’ve found the info useful.
As you say, waiting until an official recorded delivery notification is the best way to go.
Your way of dealing with the Avis admin charges sounds interesting, but from what I remember of a Eurpocar hire contract, there is a condition which seems to allow hire companies to pop these little extra charges on without asking – I think this is a no-no, but am not sure -not being a lawyer. It does, however, seem reasonable to expect Avis to justify the extra charges -otherwise one might be able to sue them for credit card fraud!
Hopefully others will read this; I’ll add it to the main post, and others on related subjects; and try the same tactic – it might cause Avis et al to moan to the Italian authorities which, in turn, might get something moving. I would not hold my breath though – this post has been on the www since 2006, after all, and not a fat lot has changed – except for case C-224/00 being brought to our attention by one kind person here. As I say, I’m not a legal eagle, but I did hope that someone night chip in with some useful info – call it the power of the web.
Let us all know how you get on if you have a spare moment or three.
Cheers,
Alex
Thanks Alex. For all I know the Avis contract might be similar to Europcar, but I’m not inclined to translate masses of small print to find out. I doubt the Fraud Squad would be interested in pursuing an €18 scam, and my card issuer refunded it anyway.
I’m not sure if the C-224/00 case applies to me as the car was registered in Italy, so I think they only have 210 days. If so, it expired on 28 Jan, so their time’s up already. What do you think?
My post my Human Rights thoughts tomorrow if I get the chance.
Hi Pablo,
It’s good that your card issuer smelled a rat – not many seem to.
As far as I am concerned, and from what I have understood, the nationality of the car does not count. What counts is the nationality of the driver and the period. The C-224/00 case appears to restrict Italy to maximum of 210 days to hunt down European Union resident offenders whether they are Italian or not. The longer period
If I were you, I’d still throw C-224/00 at them. Worth a try – then you can decide whether to pay up or not – but have a go before the fine increases, if possible.
Best,
Alex
Hi again Alex, and many thanks for your prompt response.
I really don’t want to be picky about this, but I looked carefully at EC case C-224/00 before posting, and I’ve looked again to make sure. The determining factor is not the nationality of the car nor its driver, but which country it’s registered in. The title of the case (from the 17 Feb Important Update at the top of this blog, from the link to the official case record and from Peter’s and your own posts) is:
“Difference in treatment of persons contravening the highway code according to the place of registration of their vehicle”
So an Australian driving a Swedish brand of car made from Korean & Indian parts, assembled in Mexico and registered in Hungary would be treated differently for violations of the Italian Highway Code from exactly the same car & driver but registered in Italy. The driver’s nationality or domicile makes no difference at all.
Sorry to be so pedantic, but I believe it’s an important distinction that anyone affected needs to understand before assembling their argument.
Best regards,
PabloUK (another non-lawyer!)
PS What HTML coding do you use for enhancing text in your blog?
Oops! Re-reading my own post just now, I realise it could look like I’d tripped myself up.
What I meant was that before case C-224/00 drivers of cars registered in Italy were treated differently from those registered elsewhere. Now of course – as you rightly point out – all drivers must be treated exactly the same, no matter where they or their car is from.
Sorry!
Hi Alex,
Thanks for the helpful blog!
Just received a “Circulating on roads reserved for other vehicles and indicated by traffic signs” penalty notice from EMO, for an alleged indiscretion in Florence (Via Senese) in a French registered Hertz hire car.
First notice was received 549 days after the ‘crime’ was committed.
I don’t remember driving in any restricted area on Via Senese and have subsequently ‘travelled’ on the entire length of the road on ‘Google maps’ and cannot find any places where such an offence could have been committed.
Does anyone have any idea what or where I could have done anything wrong on Via Senese (a bus lane perhaps?!)
If I log into the EMO website, with the password supplied on the notice, is it sophisticated enough to realise that I have logged in? At this stage, I don’t want to admit to receiving the first notice (it was sent as unregistered post).
EMO have contacted me directly and Hertz have no knowledge of the fine and have not provided my details to EMO (hence no admin fee). Hertz have confirmed that they will not pay the fine on my behalf.
The notice from EMO states that they got my details from RAC Finance. Does anyone know who they are? I have never had anything to do with any such company and am concerned why they have provided my details to EMO.
Also, without knowing who provided the details, I have no way of proving whether the Italians have satisfied the ‘360-day’ regulation.
The notice from EMO also states I have 20-days to appeal. Shouldn’t I get 60 days? Particularly as it took them 549 days to contact me!
I sent an email to FCO and the British Consulate in Florence but they just confirmed that there wasn’t much they could do to help (which, admittedly is fair enough) but they have recently added a warning to future tourists on the FCO website.
I accept that ignorance is not a valid defence and non-Italian nationals should educate themselves on Italian highway regulations but surely common sense should prevail for alleged minor indiscretions such as this. Although, if it subsidises those long Italian lunches in the Comune di Firenze, then why would they stop this lucrative ‘scam’!?
I agree that if a non-domicile is caught speeding or driving erratically then they should be chased and fined (although 549 days is still an excessively long time to issue a fine!).
Surely common sense dictates that a foreign driver might stray into a bus lane or similar reserved section of road in their attempts to stay as far ‘right’ and ‘out of trouble’ as possible.
I do admit that one of our party drove through the ZTL on the morning of arrival in Florence. However, this penalty notice does not appear to relate to the ZTL as it occurred on Via Senese, outside of the city centre.
We had to drive through the ZTL because we were attempting to reach a hotel in the ZTL area. The reason we wanted to stay at this hotel is that it had parking facilities and we did not want to leave the car in an unsecured parking facility. After spending 30 mins trying to locate the hotel, we gave up, left the central area and ended up staying at a hotel just outside of the ZTL.
I don’t want to pay the fine because I believe it to be invalid (C-224/00). I don’t want to appeal because the appeal process is so long-winded and they’ll probably throw it out and fine me more than double!
Let’s hope C-224/00 works! I’m going to Venice in September and am hiring a car to drive around Northern Italy for a week.
Thanks
Pedro
Hi Pedro
It is some time since you posted – how did things work out for you? I also fell into the same trap in June this year. At the fork of Via Senese and Via del Gelsomino as you head north there is a bus lane (the left hand part of the fork). You cannot see the sign until you pass through the traffic lights (beyond the point of no return) and the word “BUS” painted on the road will be completely obscured by the car in front of you. Assuming you manage to spot the sign amidst all the other extraeneous rubbish advertising everything from local festivals to shoe shops, it’s too late. If like me you were in a line of traffic you can’t just stop, and even if you did you couldn’t turn around and go back. I was merely following the road towards a car park indicated in my guide book with several cars in front of me and a builder’s van up my chuff- It’s about a 25 minute walk from the town centre so I hadn’t imagined that I would encounter a ZTL (I even checked before driving to the city so that I would stay clear of the ZTL).
Did you end up paying this one or get out of it somehow?
All the best
Kemiker
Hello again Alex. I hope these few suggestions will be useful to readers who want to contest their motoring fines. Just pick out the bits that apply to you.
Many posts above complain about the Italian authorities’ delay in notifying traffic penalties and their insistence on communicating in Italian. Fear not – the law is on your side, as I think both issues contravene the European Convention on Human Rights, specifically Part I Article 6:
“1 – In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.
2 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
3 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.”
NOTE: This should not be confused with Article 6 of the EC Treaty referred to in Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update” at the top of this blog.
Key words/phrases italicised above are “within a reasonable time”, “presumed innocent”, “promptly”, “in a language which he understands”, “in detail” and “free … interpreter”.
You must be told promptly of an accusation – presumably so you can recall the circumstances of the incident and collect any evidence you need while memories are still fresh. It follows that if you were not told promptly, then you have obviously been denied the opportunity of “a fair & public hearing within a reasonable time”. Thus it seems the Italian law allowing up to a year to tell you about an accusation is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. As Mike, James & Peter have mentioned, a UK prosecuting authority must serve a Notice of Intended Prosecution within 2 weeks of an alleged traffic offence, and a penalty notice or court summons within 6 months. If the UK can do it, so could Italy – if it wanted to. You can form your own opinion of why Italian authorities delay sending a penalty notice for a year or more. My guess is it’s to reduce the likelihood of drivers remembering what happened or having kept car hire paperwork & hotel/restaurant/fuel/shopping receipts (to prove when & where you were) after such a long time. Depending on its timing and the extent of detail given, notification of a violation (such as an “amicable” EMO invitation to accept a fine) might satisfy the requirement to inform you promptly of an accusation. But the penalty notice sent by registered post is the important one, so if it arrives after 210 days you can reject it as denying you the option of a hearing “within a reasonable time”.
Regarding time limits, if you receive a penalty notice ask the car rental Co for a copy of documents showing when the police asked for the renter’s data and when they were given, so you can check whether the prescribed timescales were complied with and reject the penalty as out of time if they over-ran. If they claim they’re allowed 360 days remind them of European Court case C-224/00 (see Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update”). Although that case concerned disparity in the treatment of drivers depending on where their cars were registered, it reinforced the principle in ECHR Pt.1 Art.14 that laws must not discriminate between nationalities. Thus you can reject any liability on the basis that the 360-day rule discriminates against non-Italians, so is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable.
You can insist on being told of the accusation in your own language, despite what Italian authorities might prefer. Again, an Italian law allowing authorities to demand communication in Italian is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. It seems you are allowed 60 days from receiving a fine to pay up or appeal, so you could email or fax – in your own language – on the 59th day from receiving a penalty notice in Italian (or an incorrect own-language translation containing bad grammar or wrong spelling such as “Grait” Britain), saying you don’t understand it and ask for an accurate translation. Meanwhile the 210-day clock is still ticking, as the notice doesn’t count as served unless it’s “in a language which [you] understand”, and of course sent by registered post. If it contains any factual errors (name, time, date, location, car Reg.No, make, model etc) you can safely ignore it as it does not accurately describe the accusation and is thus unprovable – but don’t tell ‘em as they could re-issue a correct one within the 210-day period. The longer you spin out the arguments the more they would be likely to abandon the fine or run out of time. As Alex suggested, you could impose your own time-limit, such as “If I do not receive the information requested within 14 days I will assume you have (a) withdrawn all accusation/s, (b) cancelled all associated penalties & charges and (c) ceased all action/s”. With luck they won’t bother to provide a proper translation in time, or just give up. If they complain send them a copy of Article 6 – in English – with the relevant text highlighted (to be ultra-helpful you could also send the Italian version if you can find it).
Another thing: in earlier posts Alex (and the Bella-Toscana link) suggested that Italian law assumes you are guilty until proved innocent. That too is incompatible with the ECHR, under which – as in most western-style democracies – the accused is presumed innocent until proved guilty. Thus an authority has no right to collect a penalty unless the accusation has been proved. Just saying you were seen in such a place at such a time does not prove you were. A photo of your car – or its number plate, or the driver, or the road – proves nothing without context such as time, date, place, nature of infringement and applicable law – including evidence that adequate signage was in place and operative (the international symbol of a red ring on a white background with a pictogram and/or text specifying the restriction). A close-up snap of a number plate without any verifiable context might lead a suspiciously-minded person to wonder if there could be an element of fakery involved, but of course I can’t imagine who could possibly be so uncharitable… Find the road in Google maps – there might be a “street view” showing if there were proper signs, properly positioned and visible. You could make their life more difficult by asking for proof – in your own language – that the recording equipment has been properly maintained, calibrated and tested, as we can in the UK for camera-related allegations. If the authority can’t prove the camera was working properly, who’s to say it recorded the correct time & date when the photo was taken or if a restriction actually applied when it was taken? Ask for the make & model of equipment and copies of certificates etc (translated to your language) showing this particular device has been certified & approved for this particular use; does it have a good or bad reliability history? You can probably think of a string of other things to slow up the process which you can keep trotting out, one after the other, until they get bored. If they don’t like it or won’t co-operate, tough – the greedy, profiteering scumbags shouldn’t try to rip off foreign tourists with unverified accusations. I certainly wouldn’t even think of using the appeals procedure, for which you have to deposit twice the initial fine! If they try to pursue you for non-payment, you’ll probably have a whole bunch of unanswered technical questions as your defence. The bottom line is, they must prove their case if asked.
EU member nations are legally bound to ensure their laws comply with the ECHR. Therefore I believe the above applies to all nationalities driving in Italy, not only EU citizens. National laws that don’t comply with EU legislation can be challenged in the European Court, as Alex pointed out in his 17 Feb “Important Update”. Italian cities probably issue several million of these fines every year (the Bella-Toscana article said 859,959 in Florence alone in 2008). If even only 10% were challenged it would clog the fines system to the extent it would be unworkable – and might even persuade city authorities to review their policy of killing off the tourist trade.
For those concerned at the legality of the above strategies, I must stress that none of them contravene any valid regulations or laws. On the contrary, they rely on applying the appropriate laws, though not necessarily those the Italian authorities would like. These arguments are equally valid if your own national traffic authority tries to collect under some sort of reciprocity agreement.
Like you Alex, I’m not a lawyer, just an ordinary bloke who can read & think, and I’ve no idea if any of this has been tested in court. If not, who’s first …?
——————————————————————————–
After considering all the above you might conclude – as I have – that the best course of action is to save a lot of time & effort by regarding these extortionate & unproven demands as nothing more than speculative “fishing trips”, and merely ignore them. Really – without reciprocal legislation between national traffic authorities, how’re they gonna get you? I guess the time to worry is when you wake up next to a horse’s head…
I was in Italy in May 2008. Like others, I received two Euro 55 charges on my credit card at least six months after leaving the country. I contested the credit card charge and was told by the rental company it was for traffic tickets. I allowed the charge, and then later received unregistered mail at my USA address from the police asking for euro 125 payment for each fine. One in Florance and one in Arezzo. Same Italian agency writing about both tickets. I contacted the rental company and questioned why I was being charged for fines I had already paid. They told me the Euro 55 was the service charge for “ratting me out” to the Italian police and was not payment of the fine. It irritates the heck out of me that I could have to pay 2 x Euro 170 for a parking ticket. I did not pay the fine and figured I would never return to Italy. Silly me. It’s 2010 and I am planning on returning next month. I will not be renting a car. Any chance I get “caught” at the Italian border when entering the country?
I’m italian and if I get a fine here in Italy, I pay. If I go abroad and get a fine there, I pay. Why don’t you want to pay your fines in Italy if you were driving in a wrong way? You have to pay, like every person. You’re not special because you are tourist, everyone should act in a correct way
I’m glad you respect the rules, MM. I think many who have left comments here would be happy to respect them too – it’s just that a) fines arrive after an age b) people feel ‘hoodwinked’ because they have no idea they are entering the restricted traffic zones.
And tourists are an easy target – because they do not know Italian. Better street markings would help.
As for the fines, the time limit for sending out fine notifications should be 6 weeks, and the time for paying them, 6 months. We live in the 21st century now – this should be possible.
Best,
Alex
Well the reason that everyone non Italian is up in arms is that a) the fines are very high by European standards – speeding fine in UK £60, France €45 if you pay promptly. Also the Italian authorities take a ridiculous amount of time to sent the notices and treat foreigners differently to Italians. They insist that we communicate in Italian and say the fine will be doubled if the form isn’t exactly right and/or you lose your appeal which is just a way of trying to pressurise people in to paying up and not making a fuss even if they have a legitimate defence.
3-18-10 ALEX: I just read your IMPORTANT UPDATE OF 17 FEBRUARY 2010 about Case No. C-224/00 and the <210 day notification requirement, etc. In as much as a month has gone by since your VERY HELPFUL post, has this position been challenged or otherwise contradicted? I don't see any new posts. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR HELPFUL INFORMATION. signed "Tuscany Two".
Hi Dick,
As far as I am aware, this position not been challenged or otherwise contradicted. I believe one or two of the readers of this post will be attempting to use this challenge, and I am hoping that someone will let us know how they get on.
I think someone will, seeing as many have kindly supplied some very useful information on this sticky issue – for which I thank them.
Glad you have found the information useful.
To keep yourself up to date on things, I suggest you subscribe to the comment feed for this post: http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/feed/ using something like Google Reader or a suitable email program.
Best regards,
Alex
Well, whaddayaknow – this very topic (and other car hire issues) is on the agenda of an EU consumer issues conference in Brussels today. There’s a brief discussion about it, focussing on Tuscan ZTLs, on BBC Radio 4′s “You & Yours” programme here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/ram/2010_11_fri_02.ram. If that link doesn’t work, click the “Listen” button next to “Car hire complaints” at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/listenagain/friday.shtml.
Let me know if you can’t listen and I’ll post a précis.
Thanks, PabloUK,
I have tried to listen, but cannot open either of the files. Could be because I’m in Italy.
If you could post a précis – that would be useful. Thanks.
I’m curious to know what was said, and I imagine others might be too.
Best,
Alex
Alex,
Those BBC links are working now. I guess when I posted them the relevant files hadn’t yet been loaded.
I’ll post a précis soon in case anyone still can’t open them, though the piece didn’t add a lot to what’s here already.
Hi Pablo,
I just clicked on the links again, and guess what? I can hear the radio programme excerpts now!
No need for a précis, but thanks for the offer!
I’ll have a listen tomorrow.
Thanks again.
Best,
Alex
Pablo – I listened, and have emailed the You and Yours team – pointing them towards this post.
If they get back to me, I’ll post something.
Fingers crossed!
Best,
Alex
If i might make a suggestion cancel your credit card after hiring your cars abroad. That way you wouldnt have any charges applied that you need to claim back. Whenever I’ve entered Italy the immigration official checks only that you are who the passport says you are. there is no electronic check done on the passport like in the UK. In all cases no words are exchanged and you are waved on so he can check the rest of the plane.
hope that helps
Hello there,
start of July 2009 me and my wife took my in-laws to a weekend in Florence. As in trying to make it as much relaxing as possible I rented a car to drive us around and to visit places. Arriving in Florence the problems started. I was dark already, and the car didn’t have any gps-system, so we were driving around for some time trying to find the hotel. In the end we actually did find it and the people of the hotel we kind enough to let us know they had a spot in front of the hotel, which was reserved for them only and that we could use to leave the car during the night. They also told us that on Sundays parking wasn’t paid. As we were leaving on a Tuesday and they said they needed the parking spot for deliveries and possible other tourists we dropped the car off in a paid parking lot during the last night of our stay. A few months after having turned in the car with the car rental company, I noticed they had charged me an extra 192€ for speeding, which I honestly couldn’t remember whether it was right or not, so I didn’t complain. It WAS possible, though I have the impression I was just following the flow of traffic. Now March 22nd and 23rd of 2010 I received FOUR letters with each a different case number stating I violated Italian road laws and have to pay 105.85€ each! It comes from this emo.nivi.it thing, is nicely written in Dutch, though with some small errors, it states that if I call this and that number I will be answered in English, Dutch, French and German, that I have two ways of paying and that I have to do this within 20 days! Not even once did I find a notice under the windshield cleaners to let me know I was violating while parking. My father in law does around 50000km on the road per year, I average around 60000km per year and I really don’t remember having ignored any road signs, nor did my father in law. That nice little weekend last year is going to cost me this year’s holliday, like this. Any suggestions on what I should do?
Kind regards,
Diederik Fontaine
ps: I’m a Belgian, my wife’s Portuguese and we live in Holland. Do those suggestions I read briefly also apply to our situation? I mean the 150 days, the 210 days…
Wow, 2 year long blog, and I read it all! My daughter and I spent 4 weeks in Europe in July 2009….only two days in Florence, Italy….we rented a car and took a day trip to Florence from Chianti . I remember, vaguely, that I saw signs limiting something and tried very hard to avoid them, although the signs weren’t at all clear about which vehicles or persons they were restricting and from what……our GPS sent us in circles….any way, I received, 8 months later, 4 tickets for driving in a restricted zone….three on our ill-fated day trip (two of those only 10 minutes apart) and one en route to the rental car agency to return our car! More may be on the way! Yes, the EOM is legit. Each fine is 106 Euros, or $150 x 4! I plan to not be home to sign the registered mail and will not pay the fines. I’ll let you know if I suffer any consequences more serious than I would suffer by paying the fines! I plan to return to Italy, but not Florence – it was our least favorite place in Italy any way (loved Rome, Verona, Venice and Siena!) and with this feudal ticketing system, is now our least favorite place in Europe!
A very helpful website regarding traffic fines in Italy and the EMO is http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
I agree, Laura – it is a useful site.
Sorry to hear about your fines. You can try disputing them, as you’ll have understood from ploughing through the comments here, but it does look as though people are simply caught out because they do not know the area, or Italian road signs.
Eyes need to be kept open.
If you have friends who are thinking about coming to Italy – warn them!
Best,
Alex
Everyone,
My girlfriend and I recently received 3 tickets total for various violations from our last day in Rome dated 3/1/2008. Ironically enough, we were driving around trying to find a way to get the rental car back to return it on our last day of vacation! Two of the fines were for “Driving in a limited traffic area w/o authorization (3 mins apart) and the last was for “Circulating on a bus lane registration” – received 7 minutes later.
The 3 registered mail items were received a few months ago, with a creation date of 9/25/2009 at the top of each letter. Almost 1 1/2 years later!! Each fine is about 106 Euro (~320 total).
Anyway, after reading through the details above, as a US resident the Italian government had 567 days to contact us about the fine. But after adding up all of the days between the actual incident (3/1/08 to 9/25/09) – the total elapsed time is 573 days.
If I read the info above correctly….the Italian government did not notify us in the time allowed by law. They’ve continued to send us notices, and last week we received a “Final Reminder” for all three fines via Registered mail.
If the comments above are correct – and these fines are not valid by law (as applies to a non-Italian resident)…..how should we proceed? Is there someone we can contact to have this issue resolved?
If the fines can no longer be enforced because the government did not start drafting the communication to us until after the max deadline of 567 days….is there someone we can contact to have this taken care of? I don’t even know where to start, and I want to make sure to stay on their good side if possible as we’d like to visit again someday!
Thanks in advance for any advice you (or anyone on the site) could offer!
Hi Alex,
I’d like to submit a comment in your “Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy” post.
It’s quite a lengthy comment and if you decide to add it to the post you might want to edit it seeing that you’re an English teacher and …. English is not my mother tongue.
I too have received a Payment Notice, so-called “courtesy letter” from EMO.
So I had a long look at what I could find on the Net and I know wish I had never done it!
I was astonished at how much information I could find, so many people all over the world writing about those dreaded Italian fines.
Anyway I stumbled on your blog and decided I’d like to contribute considering this “Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy” post is so …………..short!
Could you give me an e-mail address I could write you ?
Best regards,
Al
Hi Al,
If you want to write to me about these wonderful fines – don’t worry about your English – please use the contact system. Click here to be taken to it: http://italychronicles.com/contact/
I look forward to this long post becoming even longer. 500+ fine comments, and counting!
Best regards,
Alex
just recieved a fine for 115 euros for driving in Florance it is 224 days since the ‘offence’
I am most shocked as there were 3 cars & i was the only one with a fine & one of the couples have been 5 times to Florence & twice to Pisa and never recieved a fine & also had no idea of the permit scam. It is such a long time that i have no idea which hire company i even used. I am so angry,. What would happen if i refuse any registerd post and ignore letters? I am also tempted to appeal but then dont want to accept liability!
Please help me
I will never return to Florence again i feel like telling them that all the time we were there we were hasseled by street traders & beggers who frightened the children.
It appears that the scam is not fair as only certain cars are picked.
I thank you in advance for your reply
What a great blog! Thanks Alex. I am relieve and disturbed at the same time to know we were not alone in our Pisa fiasco!
The same old song as very many on this forum – received notice from Hertz that we were being charged for them supplying our details to the police – 18 euro. Which we refused to pay. Then we got our letter from the Italians, a full year and 2 months after the violation of moving in a restricted zone took place.
We plan to go back to Italy in a couple of months and hope to use Hertz again as they are the cheapest rental company.
Since all this took place a few years back (2008 was the violation) I am thinking of just ignoring it further and seeing what happens. What I don’t want to happen is for us to go and collect our car from Hertz, only to be told that we owe them the 187.50 euro!
Any thoughts?
Alex,
Sorry, I just re-read the info and realised our fine is null and void as we received notification a year and 2 months after the violation took place. (I was confused as well as I thought it might be be measured from the time the details were received from Hertz).
You mentioned in your blog that you were drafting a form letter that one could send to the relevant authorities in such an instance, saying that the fine in void because notification came after 360 days. Do you have the letter on a link somewhere?
BTW – I think you are great and I am sending loads of good karma your way for all your helpful info.
Susan
Susan – someone has written to me and has given me the impression that the fines may still be valid. I’m checking on this and will reply when I have an answer.
Do note that I am not a lawyer.
Best,
Alex
To F V Serra
EMO (Division of NIVI Credit) is “using” the Italian car rental companies (Italian entities) to obtain the personal data of the car renter who committed the traffic violation during the rental period.
In Italy car rental companies are unable to collect fines on behalf of the police force.
EMO (located in Florence) is officially mandated by an ever increasing number of Italian Municipalities to collect fines from foreign drivers.
There’s nothing illegal up to this point.
But EMO doesn’t have a “ business license” in the US or any other country.
EMO identifies the offender, translates the fine received from the Police and then notifies the offender.
These procedural costs (27-30 € of the total amount of the fine) are not reimbursed to EMO if you don’t pay the fine.
EMO works on a commission basis, around 35% + VAT of the amount of the fine paid (not included the procedural costs).
Even collection agencies (debt collectors) duly established in your country of residence can not collect fines on behalf of Italian municipalities. Milan tried (and failed) to do that in Switzerland last year.
There has to be an agreement in force between Italy and your State of residence.
To GF & Martin
The Italian authorities have five years (Art. 209-Italian Highway Code) to collect fines from the date of the infraction.
This time limit can be interrupted by any official act relevant to the fine!
(But first (for something to happen) the police must send you the fine (Official notification via registered mail) within 360 days from the date of the infraction!)
If you get an official notification, the 5 year time limit starts running from the date you received the registered mail……………….
The multiple ZTL (restricted areas) fines (3 within 3 minutes!!!) are unfair to say the least.
In theory you have the same rights as an Italian resident to dispute the fine.
But an appeal by a foreigner (in such a case) is practically impossible for procedural reasons!
Italian residents have had (partial) success in diminishing their ZTL fines.
So……………….
Yet another. I live in Japan but am from the UK. I just got an email from my parents saying they have received a notice from EMO. I have a 190Euro fine from 13 months ago.
It says if I fail to pay within 20 days then it will go to court and that they could instruct UK bailiffs to coma and possess goods from my UK address (my parents place, I am not a UK resident) I have read EMO cannot do this.
Any ideas how I should play this? Is the 360 day law from the offence or when the police gets the details, this seems to be very unclear. I don’t have a problem paying the fine if I made a mistake but don’t want to get scammed and overpay and certainly don’t want to if I am within my rights not to.
Any advice gratefully received!
Hi Nick G,
If you receive official notification via registered letter, and that is beyond the 360 days, then you can write to the Italian authorities, explain this, and ask then to declare the fine invalid.
I would suggest writing in English – unless you know an Italian who can do it for you.
I do not think that the UK bailiffs will arrive – as of yet, the reciprocal agreement is not operative – once it is, then it is possible that measures may be taken in the UK directly against those who do not pay a fine. The same thing should also be possible in Italy in the case of Italians fined while travelling in the UK.
You might be able to appeal the fine, but it depends what it is for and the circumstances. Speeding fines would be very difficult to contest, as would fines for jumping red lights and driving down bus lanes.
It may be possible to contest some ZTL fines – if several have been issued in the space of a short time on one day, for example – but this too is complex and may not work – in which case, there is the risk that the fine may double.
The simplest thing to do is to pay – as long as you are convinced that the fine is legitimate – and EMO fines generally are – you can check out the bank account via the IBAN number. Not paying is an option some try – but non-payment could lead to problems in the future if you return to Italy.
Hope that helps a little.
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi everyone,
We received a notice of a restricted zone offense in Florence in May of 2009. It was 6 months before we received this notice, and it was not by registered mail. As a matter of fact , we just received another letter from Italy today, again not registered. So we have signed for nothing since returning May of 2009. This last letter offers us a “reduced sum” if we pay it within 60 days of this notice. Seriously! Is this not a scam. Pay quickly and we’ll give you a discount, wait 60 days and now it will be this much. Fortunately we have signed for nothing, so there is no proof of receipt, let alone proof of driving offense. I have no problem paying a traffic violation when I know I’m guilty. In this case, I have no idea what
traffic area had limited circulation, so I’ll take my chances.
U.S. citizens driving in Italy should also note that, according to Italian regulation, if a resident of a non-European Union country (e.g. the United States) violates a traffic law, the violator must pay the fine at the time the violation occurs to the police officer issuing the ticket. If the citizen does not or cannot pay the fine at the time, Italian regulation allows the police officer to confiscate the offender’s vehicle (even if the vehicle is a rental vehicle).
Alex,
Thanks for providing so much information.
Yesterday, I received a final reminder for a traffic violation in Rome for an offence on 5/08/2008 – the first registered notice was posted on 14/01/2010 ((517 days later). Today, I received another notice for a traffic violation, this time in Pisa, for an offence on 26/07/2008 (622 days later).
Do you (or any of your readers) have a template that could be used to dispute the legality of these notices?
I was just about to pay the first, but now my fines are over €200 I’m not so keen!
Thanks,
Richard
BTW, I was in a hire car (registered in Italy) for both violations. Case C-224/00 seems to be about the place of vehicle registration, as opposed to my nationality (British); does this help my case?
Oh, and the first violation was apparently for using a bus lane (struggling to find a road that leads OUT OF Rome); the second for entering a restricted traffic zone in Pisa. I’d feel differently, if I’d been caught speeding, but in both cases I feel a little hard done by. I’m sure the sign-posting was there, but it certainly wasn’t clear … to me, at least!
Thanks for the reply.
I just received a scan of the original letter. I emailed the police in Florence and they forwarded it to EMO as the infraction was in Impruneta.
EMO emailed me and explained about the fine (in perfect English) and then went on to say how the first letter was just a notice and that I would receive a registered letter from the police themselves (I live in Japan so my parents can’t really sign it for me anyway!) They say then I have 60 days to pay the police. It said I had 20 days in the first letter !!
I have replied stating that it is already well over 360 days from the offence and quoted some of the laws above. I am sure EMO can’t cancel it themselves but have asked for details of the Impruneta Police so I can consult them. I looked online but couldn’t find anything so if anyone has any contact details that would be great! At least I have bought some time.
It looks real so if I have to pay then it can’t be helped (18 years driving and my first ticket for anything…funny how these all happen in Italy isn’t it!) But if the law truly is 360 days from the offence then of course I don’t want to pay.
Is this 360 day law from the infraction something recognised by the
police or do they argue that it is 360 days from getting the details of the offenders?
Also there is very little feedback from people who have refused to pay and what follow up was taken. Would be very interested to here some results!
Thanks!
Having spent a few days in Pisa, and having hired a car from Europcar, I too received a couple of these “fines” almost a year after the event.
I researched as much as I could at the time (2006 or 2007), and found people’s opinion divided: as many folk suggested that these are a scam as those who suggest they are genuine.
2 things didn’t ring true, IMHO:
1. The English in the letter was pretty good – but then the address included the spelling GRATE BRITAIN (as if they were trying to make it sound more Italian).
2. The only way to pay was buy international bank transfer. I paid everything else in Italy by credit card: wouldn’t you think this “organisation”, if it is real, would set up such a facility?
I chose NOT to pay, and have heard no more since.
Thanks for all the advice on this blog!
To Nick G
As I’ve already said I’m not a lawyer but “just an ordinary bloke who can read & think”.
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page.
The 360 day law (Notification time limit) is from the Offence!
On my first reading of Art. 201,1 (Violations Notification) of the Italian Highway Code (a second one to make sure) it was clear to me what it meant.
Since then I found out that the Aduc (Association for the Rights of Users and Consumers) and the Italian Constitutional Court and others agreed with me (or I agreed with them).
The first “courtesy letter” is Unofficial. They could have given you 20, 30, …60 days to pay.
(You can receive more than one “courtesy letter” before receiving the Official registered letter)
Of course resolving the matter (without the need to send an appeal to the Prefect of Florence) directly with EMO would be the best way.
Yes, EMO should be able to cancel your fine because the 360 day time limit has run out. Get it in writing!
And YES, they have the “faccia tosta” (nerve) to argue that it is 360 days from getting the details of the offenders.
Maybe in your dealings with them you’ll have better luck than I had! I had a heated argument with someone at EMO about this.
If EMO won’t listen to reason then your only option (if you decide to follow the procedure) is to wait for the Official notification and appeal within 60 days.
I could give you contact details for the Impruneta Police but they have outsourced (like Florence & many other municipalities) the collection of fines to EMO.
I doubt that they speak English or that they would answer any email sent to them in English.
Don’t you have a “file number” & an “infraction number” on your notice of payment before notification? With these you can have a look at your “file” on the EMO website.
The Official Notification is sent via registered mail.
Art. 202 al.1 & art. 203 al.3 state that for a number of infractions the offender can pay a “reduced amount” within 60 days or the amount of the fine will more or less double.
On this Official fine you should also find the contact details for the Prefect & Judge of the Peace in case of appeal.
To RichardN & all
EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00 not relevant because:
– Refers only to offenders of the Italian highway code who are pulled up by the police on the spot.
- Italy has complied to judgment of EC in February 2003
Traffic violation in Rome
The registered notice was posted on 14/01/2010 (517 days later).
So you received it mid-January. More than 60 days have passed since then so it’s too late for an appeal. An appeal now would not be valid.
Traffic violation in Pisa
Notice for an offence on 26/07/2008 (622 days later).
622 days later!?! This must be some kind of record! The cheek they have!
Was it registered? If not you must wait for the Official registered notification to appeal.
You could always try to contact S.E.Pi. S.p.A (SEPi, is it not?) and get your fine cancelled. Get it in writing!
If it was registered remember the 60 day time limit to appeal!
Just one fine for entering a restricted traffic zone in Pisa?
How the hell did you get out without getting at least a second one?
Maybe an other one (or more) are on their way?
Here’s the template you requested:
APPEAL
This appeal is intended for traffic offenders who receive their:
—> Official Notification via Registered Mail over 360 days after the date of the infraction
Preamble:
Appealing to the Prefect is recommended only in cases in which you can not be wrong.
- You were notified more than 360 days after the date of the alleged offence,
- You can establish beyond the shadow of a doubt that your car, at the time of the violation, was on a traghetto headed to Sicily,
- Serious formal error(s) on the fine, ………….
I can not guarantee 100% that a Prefect might not reject a legitimate (> 360 days, within 60 days, registered mail, in Italian) appeal!
Because a Prefect might give a casual glance at an appeal request, grab a pre-printed letter and reject the appeal.
Because rejecting is easier, the appeal can still be “forwarded” to the Judge of the Peace within 30 days.
BUT this is a straightforward decision! Time limit has run out!
Prefects do reject 99% of appeals but really should NOT in such a case. Italians do appeal to the Prefect when their notification time limit has run out.
(In almost all other cases the standard procedure is to appeal to a Justice of the Peace)
This letter to the Prefect is standard, compiled from 9 appeal letters found on the web.
If a Prefect rejects such an appeal, I say: ……… Maybe I’d better not!
1 – You have received a “Notice of payment before notification” !
This so-called “courtesy letter” sent via priority mail has no legal value.
You are unofficially informed of the traffic violation perpetrated.
You can not lodge an appeal. At this stage it wouldn’t even be taken into consideration.
In the event of payment not being made within 20, 60, …. days (whatever term of payment they give you) after receipt of this Notice, the police (or the collection agency) then sends you an official notification via registered letter with proof of receipt.
2 – You have received an “Official Notification” via registered mail !
The total amount of the fine will increase by a few Euros (cost of a registered letter) compared to the Payment Notice.
You are now officially notified.
Not accepting the registered letter does not interrupt possible future proceedings.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that the offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days.
This 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the infraction.
And gets interrupted the day the Italian Postal service sends the Official Notification.
This date should appear on the Notification. (See also time stamp on the envelope)
Thus a Notification sent on the 359th day and received by the offender on the 361st is valid.
This time limit is in no way calculated from the date of the “identification” of the offender as some collection agencies would like you to believe.
This identification date is the date of receipt by the Italian authorities/Collection agencies of your personal data sent by either the car rental company, Foreign Authorities (DVLA) or other Authority.
(This “identification” notion applies only to Italian residents for whom a time limit of 150 days for the notification of the fine runs from the date of the infraction or their identification.)
WARNING !
Even if you are within your rights, the time limit has well and truly run out, you must dispute your fine and appeal to the PREFECT within 60 days from the day of receipt of the Official Notification.
Appealing to the Justice of the Peace is impracticable for a foreigner:
- Since the 1st of January 2010 you are required to pay 38 €,
- You must attend the hearing (or get someone to attend), ………….
Moreover it is not necessary in this case.
You must appeal by writing (registered letter with proof of receipt) in ITALIAN to the Prefect of the Provincia where the infraction was perpetrated.
You’ll find the address of the Prefect on the Notification.
(No need to lodge an appeal if you have already paid the fine !)
———————————————————————————————————————
Al Prefetto di …………….
Raccomandata A.R.
Oggetto: ricorso contro multa notificata oltre 360 giorni dal fatto.
Il/la sottoscritto/a ……………………, residente in…………,titolare della vettura targa (OR titolare del contratto di noleggio della vettura targa)…………..,
premesso che in data ………., ha ricevuto il verbale di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. …………, fa notare che la notifica dello stesso è avvenuta oltre 360 giorni dal fatto, estinguendo quindi l’obbligo di pagamento.
Come stabilito dall’art. 201, comma 1 del Codice della strada, nel caso di residenti all’estero, il verbale deve essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Per quanto sopra
Chiede che il provvedimento venga annullato.
Allega: fotocopia del verbale notificato.
Date…………… Signature (readable)
———————————————————————————————————————
To the Prefect of ……………
Registered letter with proof of receipt
Concerns : Appeal against fine notified over 360 days after the date of the infraction.
The undersigned………………, resident in ….…(full address)……, owner of the vehicle with registration (license) number (OR holder of the rental agreement of the vehicle with registration (license) number)…………….,
Whereas on date…………, has received the official notification of infraction of the Highway Code number………….., points out that said notofication was received over 360 days after the date of the infraction, thus extinguishing obligation to pay.
As stated in article 201,1 of the Highway Code, for the offenders residing abroad the fine must be notified within 360 days of the ascertainment, calculated unambiguously from the date of the infraction.
Given the above
Asks that the measure be nullified.
Enclosed: copy of notified fine
Date…………… Signature (readable)
On the envelope you can add : Ricorso contro multa al Codice della Strada
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the fine .
Keep for at least 5 years a copy of this letter, postal receipt, the fine and the enveloppe (in which the “Official notification” was sent ) –> Time Stamp
An appeal lodged after 60 days is not valid.
Paying the fine means admitting you’re guilty. So no sense in presenting an appeal after.
The Prefect must come to a decision within 210 days, and then has an other 150 to send you his response.
Don’t expect an answer from the Prefect! You might never get one!
Thanks Al.
Hi Alex,
I got 2 fines from the COmune di Milan Polizia Locale today from my holiday in Italy last August. Both fines sum up to about 200eurs which definitely burns a hole in my pocket.
My both offences are driving on the bus lane. Before going to Italy I have read about the restricted zones and was careful not to enter them but still ended up with 2 fines. I didn’t know that cars were restricted on bus lanes. Don’t remember seeing any signs as well.
From your post and all the comments, I also doubt the authenticity of the fines. I understand that the fines will usually come in registered post. My fines came in normal mail and were written in French (I stay in France). Does this mean I will get another official letter via registered mail? And I can only send in my appeal after I get the registered letter? The fine states that I should make payment within 20 days.
Is there anyway to make an appeal or to waiver one of the fines?
I am not an EU citizen and will be leaving France for good in about 2 months. Am really tempted to just ignore the fines.
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to reply. Seems like these italian fines have really got ten alot of people.
Just curious as to what the ramifications would be to ignoring the fines, either by informal notice from EMO NIVI (of which I have five!) or by registered mail (which of course, I still await), with respect to a non EU Citizen attempting to return to Italy. I am Canadian.
I anticipate returning to Italy within two years. We loved it that much. However, as a tourist, I do not want to be stopped at the airport and turned away, or forced to pay outstanding fines. To be fined for trying to find my way around Milan at midnight, or thereabouts, where street signs directing you in the PROPER direction are apparently scarcer than those prohibiting certain actions, is highly unfair, and contrary to all things tourist. I understand all arguments and advice regarding paying or not (I too am not a lawyer, but suffice to say I work in an equally “obvious” aspect of law…hence my questioning…) but what concerns me most is what awaits one at the border, when we return. With the Italian custom of photocopying passports at all hotels, and submitting them to the local police on a daily basis, it seems entirely possible that one might receive a knock on one’s door one evening as well. How likely are either to happen…does anyone know?
Thanks in advance, and thanks for all the other information…a lot of work, obviously!
We have also been subjected to an ‘Italian’ fine. Our fine was sent to us this week – 100 Euros. This was for a visit to Pisa in June 2008 !!!.
Reading the blogg tonight, I haven’t seen anyones fine older than ours. We are unsure whether to pay it. We may return to Pisa and hire a car again and do not want hassle when this happens.
We took the paperwork to the police station in the UK who advised us to contact the Italian embassy. We are not even sure which hire car company we used it was that long ago.
Hi Su,
Have you received the fine by regular mail?
If so you can try and contact S.E.Pi. S.p.A. (Società Entrate Pisa S.p.A.) sepi-pisa@legalmail.it and get your fine cancelled (in writing).
Explain to them kindly but forcefully that Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states very clearly that offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days.
AND that this 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the infraction.
AND absolutely NOT from the day they finally decided to inquire with the car hire company about the drivers’ contact details.
If they do not reply I wouldn’t waste too much time.
If it was registered (and if you want to follow the legal procedure) you have to appeal in Italian to the Prefect of Pisa within 60 days.
Read above my two comments: April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am and April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am.
Al
Hi all
How annoying is this all and as so many have said how many 1000s have Italians put off ever returning again thanks for so many now being scared to drive in the country.
My boyfriend and I were in Tuscny September 2009. A month or so Europcar charged us 40Euros for adminstrative costs relating to a car fine. Now (9 months later!) we have receied a latter, in English, stating we were caught speeding 20k over the allowed limit outside Florence and asked to pay 190Euros. I doubt this was the case as we were enjoying crusing and taking in the scnery and would not have speeded.
Anyway. The letter was sent standard, not signed for so they have no proof we have it.
We are both tempted to ignore it. However we will be returning to Tuscany later this year but this time driving in our car from UK. So does anyone know not having to go through Italian airport/hire a car there- would these reduce our chances of getting stopped/caught at all?
Many people in the last few years said they would take a gamle and not pay so Im amazed at the lack of response here from people who have not paid fines to see what, if anything happened to them, both in the UK and when going back to Italy?
I was fined a train fare in Germany that I never paid, they took my passport and Ive since been able to enter there without any issues. It seems the Italian methods of chasing fines with such large time having passed since it was committed would they really be totally on the ball if we happened to have our details passed to the police etc?
Hi Jessica,
Sounds as though you’ve received one of the notification of a fine notification – which arrives before the actual fine.
I know this situation is costing Italy tourists, but the number of people being fined is minimal compared to the 70 million people who visit Italy each year. Before Italy’s government does anything the situation has to become much worse. No consolation, I know.
As for people not posting about not paying, this is not a surprise. I don’t think it would be a great idea to mention this – and the Italian cops might just confiscate this site and charge me which inciting people to break the law. This would not be good.
I do not condone non-payment, but the decision is yours. Please read the other comments to get an idea as to what might happen if you do not pay and return to Italy.
You could try appealing the fine, but this is not simple unless you write Italian very well, and could lead to the fine being doubled too.
The best thing to do is to contact your local MP, MEP, as well as the AA, RAC, newspapers, etc and hope someone has a go at making signs clearer.
Best,
Alex
Hi Alex
I really appreciate your response…
I have since dug around a bit and discovered that in terms of returning to Italy, by car, we are 90% likely to be OK.
As Italy is in the Schengen Agreement it seems we might not even have to show our passport at all, unless random spot checks?
Also someone above stated Italys rule about scanning in passports at hotels.
I have since found out, while thisis the case it is sent to the State police tourism office and fines are dealt with by the city issuing the fines, town hall, not the Italian government., so they both are a seperate department. So the police arriving at your hotel to arrest you will not happen (relating to unpaid fines that is!).
Also- they only need 1 passport per room, so I will give mine, not associated with the fine, and not my partners.
I think the only thing is we could be chase by the agencies hired by Italy over HERE. However Ill wait till the recorded letter comes and also, we are moving in about 8 months anyway, cancelling the card we booked the hire car on etc- so I think given this it might be quite hard to chase ous, beyond 8 months.
I just find it so appalling that they can treat people in this way that I want to make a stand!
Heres hoping….
I just got 2 fines in dated from 14 June 2008!
Thanks for the appeal template, Sending it off today to them
With apologies to Sean Connery “Fuori di qui si diego bastardi”
Hi Alex
Can you advise please?
On 4th April 2009 I went to Pisa with my family picked up the reserved car from Hertz at the airport, following day (it was Saturday) we went to Florence parked the car in an underground car park, and handed the key to the car park attendant and after walking around the city center all day, I picked the car up drove back to Pisa and next day back to London. Few months later Hertz charged my credit card account (about 30 Euro) for going through congestion area in Florence in the morning and afternoon. I notified my credit card company about and said I know nothing about this. Hertz refunded money soon after BUT then came a letter from Florence Municipal ….. about the same violation. I did say I did not have the car keys at the time etc. Now the case is going through the appeal. IF the worse happens and I lose the appeal, can I just forget about it and since they asked for 99 Euro for each violation and they said it would be doubled if I lose the appeal. I have no intention of going back Italy again.
Thanks
Yousef
Hi Yousef,
The time of the Florence ‘offence’ was while you were walking around the city – is what I think I’ve understood.
In which case, you were not in the car, which, technically, should not have been moving. Now, I have no idea, but it sounds a little as though the car park attendant or someone else, took your hire car out and about while you were walking around Florence. It sounds strange, but it is possible. Do you have any receipt for the car park? If so, I’d write back to the Florence authorities and explain the situation. I would imagine that in the circumstances they would cancel the fine. Writing a letter, in English, which explains the situation should work – mention the name of the car park too (this will be on a receipt – if you have one).
There is a risk that they will double the fine, but if you have a receipt with a time on it, you should be OK. Nothing is guaranteed though.
If you have no receipt, then what you say about leaving your keys with someone cannot be easily proved, in which case the fine could double.
With regard to two letters about the same violation, are you sure they refer to the same violation or to two different violations? This happens – check the reference numbers and see if they are different.
Hope this helps – but note I am not a lawyer.
Best of luck,
Alex
Thank you Alex,
I did not keep the receipt and I guess I have to expect the worse (ie paying double) even though I explained everything in English.
Thanks again
Yousef
Hi there! I was wondering about bus fines in rome? Two of us got a fine of 50euro each which now is 100 euros each, as we didn’t have enough cash on us to pay the fine on the spot. we inadvertently got on a bus without a ticket. one of us is a eu citizen (germany) living permanently in the us, the other is a us citizen. The officer was rude, barely spoke english to explain anything. I had asked him for a english copy of what we were signing..he said “no important”…
Hi Daniela,
Sorry to hear you got caught. It’s not always clear how Italy’s buses work to foreigners, I know.
Before paying up, you could try writing an apologetic letter, in English, to the bus company – they might let you off, but so many people try to work the system, I doubt whether they will listen to you. You never know.
At the end of the day though, a quick trip around the internet would have helped you understand how Rome’s buses etc work – and this would have saved you €100 each.
Good luck,
Alex
Hi Alex,
I have been reading your blog with interest since the 2 traffic infringements came through my letterbox this morning.
I visited Florence on the 23rd Apr 09 in a hire car rented from Europecar, and due to a lost wallet issue had to drive into central Florence chasing after a taxi.
Both traffic offences were committed within 10 minutes of each other on the 29th Apr 09.
On the EMO website there is a letter which I believe was from the hire car dated the 16th Sep 09 saying I had hired the car, and a stamp saying that they received this on the 19th Sep 09 (146 days after the offence)
The Notice of Payment Before the Notification was issued on the 28th May 2010, over a year after the original offences.
From reading above can you clarify how the system works with regards to whether this is now too old for them to persue.
Is it correct they have 150 days to find out who hired the car and and then a further 360 days to issue the notice?
Or is the 360 day rule for foreign nationals for the whole process?
I am a bit confused…
Incidently the 2 fines are for 120 euors each
Many thasnks, Tim
Tim,
“Is it correct they have 150 days to find out who hired the car and and then a further 360 days to issue the notice?
No, it’s not correct!
To be accurate what EMO says on their website (FAQ n°17 http://www.emo.nivi.it/Faq.aspx) is that they have 360 days “from the date of receipt of the personal data sent by the car rental company”.
Absolutely no time limit to find out who hired the car!
Which means that they can decide to identify the offender whenever it suits them!
Why not after 4, 8, 17, ………….months?
What is important is that Art. 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states (unambiguously) that offenders residing abroad must be notified (officially) within 360 days, calculated from the DATE of the infraction.
Whether you were driving your own car or a rented car is not relevant!
The Notice of Payment Before the Notification you have received is Unofficial.
You can try and contact EMO and get your fine cancelled (in writing).
If and when you receive the Official Notification via registered mail you must dispute your fine and appeal in Italian to the PREFECT within 60 days.
You’ll find a template in my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Please read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comments on April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am and May 8, 2010 at 9:35 pm.
Al
I emailed the email address supplied with the fine earlier today, and have just received the response, which I thought you might be interested to see:
Dear Sir,
The centre of Pisa is a limited area, in order to access this area you
must have a special authorization.
All the cars that enter without this authorization are fined because many
streets of the centre have got a camera that makes a photo of the plate of
the car.
These streets are marked by international road signs.
Remember that sings are the same in all the country of EUROPE.
In attachment a copy of the photo.
According to the Italian Road Traffic Code it’s possible to notify the
fine to the lessee of the car within 360 days from the date on which the
Police Office receive your name and address from your Rental.
We are sorry but we aren’t able to delete your fine.
The document that you’ve received is a legal act produced by a police
officer, sent according to the Italian Highwaycode and within the terms
permitted.
We’re sorry but it’s impossible to pay it by credit card or online.
You can pay by bank transfer:
• the name and the address of our bank are :
CASSA DI RISPARMIO LUCCA PISA LIVORNO
AGENZIA 1 – CORSO ITALIA 4 -56125 PISA
• Account number is 77
• the name and the address of the recipient are:
SEPI SPA COMUNE DI PISA SANZIONI AMMINISTRATIVE
PIAZZA DEI FACCHINI 16, 56125 PISA
• INTERNATIONAL COORDINATES:
- IBAN IT64G0620014021000000000077
- BIC (swift code): BPALIT3LXXX
Please write on the reason of the payment the number of the form of the
fine, so we will be able to identify the payment.
It’s the surest and quickest way.
If you have problems you can send a cheque payable to SEPI SPA COMUNE DI
PISA SANZIONI AMMINISTRATIVE and you must send it to Polizia Municipale -
Piazza dei Facchini 16 56125 Pisa Italy(please send in attachment a copy
of your fine).
If you want try to cancel the fine you can submit an appeal, in Italian
language, to one of the following authorities within 60 days from the date
on which you received the fine:
* Prefect of Pisa, writing to “Piazza G. Mazzini, 56125 Pisa (italy)
* Justice of Peace of Pisa, writing to “via Palestro 39, 56125 Pisa (italy)
Your appeal must be sent with registered mail.
At your disposal for further information
Best Regards
On Mar, 1 Giugno 2010 11:43 am, felix middleton wrote:
>
> Hello
>
>
> My name is Felix Middleton and I have received a letter from you
> regarding offense Nr. of form: 1362520. This relates to a fine of 119
> euros on April 21st 2009 in Pisa.
>
> Having spoken to you, you have told me that you have 360 days to inform
> me of the fine, from the time that you receive notification from Hertz,
> the hire company I used to hire the car reg DV829ML.
>
> From what I have read under European law if you are a European Union
> resident and you have received a fine more than 210 days after an
> offense, then a fine is not enforceable. I have been advised to quote
> case no C-224/00:
>
> Failure by a Member State to fulfil its obligations – Article 6 of the EC
> Treaty (now, after amendment, Article 12 EC) – Difference in treatment of
> persons contravening the highway code according to the place of
> registration of their vehicle – Proportionality.
>
> I have been advised to speak to my lawyer and if necessary contact my MEP
> to discuss this further due to the time that has elapsed since the time
> of the offence.
>
> Please do not hesitate to contact me at this email address.
>
>
> I look forward to hearing from you,
>
>
> Felix Middleton
>
Felix,
EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00 not relevant because:
– Refers only to offenders of the Italian highway code who are pulled up by the police on the spot.
- Italy has complied to judgment of EC in February 2003
BUT they’re misinforming you about the 360 day time limit!
Art. 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states (unambiguously) that offenders residing abroad must be notified (officially) within 360 days, calculated from the DATE of the infraction.
Please read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comments on April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am, May 8, 2010 at 9:35 pm and June 2, 2010 at 2:58 am.
Al
Alex,
I too received two notices by post today (02/06/10) from Pisa regarding the restricted traffic zone which occurred on 17/05/2009. I had hired a car from Hertz. They arrived in separate envelopes with a yellow detachable card on the rear of the envelope with an addressee of SEPI Service SRL. The postmark on the envelopes is 22/05/2010. I did not sign for these letters as they were put through the letter box. The letter head is Municipality of Pisa. Working on the basis that the postmark is 22/05/2010, then that is more than a year from the offence when it was posted!
Fair enough if I have violated traffic rules and I would expect to pay, just like the London Congestion Zone.
However, just to clarify a few points:-
1) Are the detachable yellow cards the system of Registered Mail which should be detached and returned by the Royal Mail back to SEPI? As stated, if they are, I have not signed anything so technically I have not been officially notified (as far as proof goes).
2) Working on the dates, surely I am over the 360 day limit now?
3) If the yellow cars are not the system of Registered Mail, will something else arrive?
Like many others on here, I am slightly annoyed at the time delay and it has certainly tarnished my memories of what was a good holiday.
Alastair,
1) Yes, I believe you have received two “Official Notifications” via registered mail with proof of receipt!
Is it written “A.R.” on the front of the card?
A.R. means “Avviso di ricevimento” –> “Proof of receipt”.
Do the detachable yellow cards look like this? http://www.poste.it/postali/stampati/avviso_ricevimento_bilingue.shtml
Odd that your postman made such a blunder!
In such a case, if you were an Italian resident, you’d receive an official note informing you that you can collect the registered mail at the post office.
If, for any reason you don’t pick it up (you’re on a four month holiday improving your sun tan on Copacabana beach or you’re refusing to accept the registered mail), you then receive a second official note.
After ten days you’re considered to be legally notified.
I don’t know how things work with “international registered mail” but the fact of the matter is that your postman can’t even send the detachable yellow cards back to SEPI in Pisa whether you’ve signed for them or not!
2) Yes, you’re over the 360 day time limit!
You’re right. The relevant date is 22/05/2010, the day the two notifications were sent from Italy. Furthermore 360 days is not 365 days (a year) even if it’s of no consequence for you, the two infractions having occurred on 17/05/2009.
3) Someday you’ll probably receive the two notifications (via registered mail) again.
There are no definite rules about this!
Also read my comment on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am.
Al
Alex,
The two detachable yellow cards that I have in my possesion are exactly like the ones on your link above. Furthermore, I checked with my local postie who confirmed I had not signed for anything official today.
I am grateful that you confirm I am over the 360 day time limit and as far as I am now concerned, they can poke it. Their inefficiency is not my problem.
I am a police officer in the UK. If I want to know a driver’s details, even of a hire car, it does not take me over a year to find out who was driving, even with the Data Protection Act. Simply fill out a form, get an inspector to sign it and send it to the relevant hire company. All details furnished pretty quickly.
I shall now await the the next “summons” from Pisa and see what happens. In any case, I am not paying it now in principle – it may make the Italians clean up their act a little and be more efficient!
Oh, and just an additional little snippet of info – my two letters are dated 14/05/2010 so that is still outside the 360 day limit. Took them eight days to post them!
Alastair,
My name is Al, not Alex.
(Please READ “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comment on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am).
I’m responsible for the reply I gave you, especially if for some reason or other, now or at a later date, you would be displeased with the response.
Eight days between the date on the notifications and the date on the envelopes!?!
Should be the same dates. That’s why one must always keep the enveloppe for the postmark.
But Italian bureaucracy is what it is! As you say, they could be more efficient.
And yes, you’re quite right about the date 14/05/2010 on the notifications being outside the 360 day time limit.
Al (not Alex Roe)
P.S./ By the way I’m not a lawyer, just someone who speaks Italian and spent a “little” time on the web exploring this issue.
A British postman can be unreliable too!
Al,
Apologies for getting your names mixed up – especially as I am also called Al as well!
If 360 days is the law, it’s the law – it’s as simple as that. 360 days is more than ample time to identify a driver (foreign or not) and send out paperwork in time. As you know, in the UK we have set times to send out NIP’s (Notices of Intended Prosecution), speeding tiickets and even summary offences. If we stray out of those times, then it’s our hard luck.
Maybe I am just being cynical (you tend to be when you are a police officer), but is this a case of milking the tourist who does not quite understand Italian law and making them a soft target?! I wonder….hmmmmmm.
Great blog by the way
NEED IMMEDIATE HELP!!!!
Wow, this blog is exactly what I was looking for…… I am in a situation and need someone, ANYONE’s help…….
I was in Italy on a 2 week trip last March (March 2009). While in Rome for 4 days, a friend of mine and I decided to rent vespas. I did not have any issues with the polizia while riding. I obeyed all the traffic laws as best I could and was only stopped once for riding on a street near the Colosseum on Sunday (the officer let me go with no problem). This year, 2010, I returned from a vacation in April (the first week of April) to a heap of mail that had FOUR letters in there from the Polizia Municipale Roma. Apparently I had violated four traffic laws!!!!! I had no idea that I was doing anything wrong. On the papers there was a website with an access code and password. I logged in and there were pictures of my friend and I riding the vespas!!!!!
Needless to say, the fines were outrageous. I believe each offense was 100 Euro. I am not a poor man, but that is almost $500!!! My friend and I both agreed that we were not going to pay and just let the issue fade away. Well, I have received TWO notices from the US Post Office as of today requesting that I sign for a certified letter from the Polizia Municipale Roma. I have no been able to make it over to the post office to pick it up, but I will tomorrow.
Here is the situation…..I do NOT want to pay these fines as I am not a citizen of Italy and do not plan on visiting or moving there anytime soon. Of course I loved it, but I don’t see any travel plans being put together to return. Ideally I would like to resolve the issue without having to pay by any means necessary. If that means I have to contact them, so be it. I’ll call, write a letter, email, whatever I have to do. I just dont want to pay the stupid fine.
I am beggining to get worried that this can be an international issue? Can the Italian government issue a warrant for my arrest and the US authorities follow through with arresting me??????
SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ASAP!!!!!
Hi Brandon,
This is Alex, not, Al – who very kindly helps out here. Al speaks much better Italian than I, and has carried out lots of research into the fining of foreign motorists issue. Al is foreign too.
Now, getting fined for scooting around Rome on a Vespa is not a great end to a great Roman holiday, alas.
Technically, annoying though it is, you should pay up. The cameras merciless. You don’t say which traffic laws you have been accused of breaking. There is a small chance that an appeal may reduce the amount of the fines.
I don’t imagine whoever rented you the scooter warned about Roman restricted traffic zones – and even if they did, you’d probably have seen many other scooters doing just the same as you, I’ll willing to bet.
Coughing up is the best option probably – appeals against the electronic eyes are difficult. If you do not pay, it is unlikely that you will find an Italian cop or the FBI on your doorstep brandishing an international arrest warrant. Unless they wanted to make an example of you, which probably would damage Italy’s image as a tourist destination massively. And committing a few offences on a Vespa in Rome hardly puts you into the same league as an international drug dealer. Then there would be the huge costs involved – all just to collect several hundred Euros.
As I have pointed out above many times in my replies, the only potential problem which could arise would be someone catching up with you if you come to Italy again in the next 5 years. I have not heard of this happening, but that does not mean it has not.
Not paying is an option, but the decision is yours. I cannot and will not condone non-payment for reasons given at the start of this article some 550 comments above.
What you can do is tell anyone you know, and even those you don’t, that they have to be careful when they come to Italy – and the romantic trip around Rome on a Vespa can and up leaving one with a bad after taste, as you have unfortunately discovered.
For the record, this is the first case of Vespa fines I have heard since writing this way back in September 2006.
Best regards,
Alex (not Al!)
PS ‘Alex’, me, is the guy who runs BlogfromItaly.com – ‘Al’ helps out on the fine front – Thank you Al!.
Brandon,
Those reckless tourists wandering aimlessly around Rome on their vespas!
Rome will send two Carabinieri in full uniform to flush you out of your hiding place!
And to think that the Italian taxpayer will have to suffer the consequences for your casualness!
From what I understand:
- The four traffic violations took place in March 2009,
- In March-April 2010 you received the “unofficial” fines sent via “normal mail”,
- The official notifications (you’re about to sign for) were probably sent from Rome at the end of May.
March 2009 –> May 2010 ==> The 360 day notification time limit has run out.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that the offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days.
This 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the infraction.
If you’re really ready to write a letter (and if you want to follow the legal procedure) you have to appeal in Italian to the Prefect of Rome within 60 days from the date of receipt of the official notifications.
You’ll find the address of the Prefect on the Notification.
An appeal template is included in my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Read carefully “Summary of How to Deal with Fines received while in Italy” & “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comment on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am.
Al (not Alex)
Great work guys and praise for all your efforts.
Point of clarification to Al’s 3 June 2010 ,12.53 pm posting regarding the 365 day ruling . Is this from the day of the offence to the date on the envelope of the second registered letter plus 10 days as on 4 months holiday and no one home?
Reading this forum I am wondering why some Euro employed Lawyer/ MEP has not taken the initiative and clarified the cross border legality and correct enforcement procedures as most people seem to feel threatened and take the easy route and cough up rather than receive the dreaded kiss. How can a motoring infringement be classified as a “Criminal” offence in one EU member state and not in the other. Its nonsensical. and will the British officials arrest and shackle its citizens for extradition to Italy as a criminal for incarceration and punished with pasta and spaghetti.
I have just got back here from NZ and was touring Italy last summer with my daughter who hired the vehicle. I was a named driver and we went separate ways where I took the car.
Just learned she has had several credit card hits and fines are coming in but not the registered ones. Appears she has been judged guilty of a criminal offence without cause simply by signing the agreement which is totally unfair as I was the vehicle user. She feels threatened and just wants to pay up in fear of the consequences to her career
It appears their coffers are lined by basic intimidation of foreigners and they are taking advantage of the fact that people are deterred from making an appeal due to an alien, complex and geographically distant judicial system which we should not be subjected to.
I am a international Nomad without a credit card or care and am curious of how best to play this and suggest my daughter put me entirely in the blame loop if that can be done. Any ideas?
Paul,
I wouldn’t feel « threatened » (for my career) for a few traffic violations in Italy.
You probably drove through a ZTL (limited traffic area) on more than one occasion..
The 360 day (NOT 365) Violations Notification time limit is from the day of the offence to the date on the envelope of the Official fine sent via registered mail.
Usually people sign for their registered mail.
The “+10 days from the second “postal notice” warning you that a registered letter is waiting for you at the post office” was just my explanation to Alastair (who was left with the detachable cards to be sent back to Italy) of how an Italian resident is considered to be officially notified even if he can’t be found (no one home) or refuses to sign the registered fine. For foreign residents……
“Judged guilty of a Criminal Offence” ? For a traffic violation? Likely a ZTL infringement?
Is there more to this than just a pecuniary sanction???
Your daughter is receiving the fines because she was the holder of the rental agreement. As such (Art.196 Italian Highway Code), I think she’s also responsible for paying the fines. So, putting the blame on you would be of no use.
Should you choose to pay it’s of no consequence whether the fines are in your name or your daughter’s name, unless the violation is so serious that it warrants, for instance, the loss of your driving license for six months in Italy. In such a case you shouldn’t drive a car in … Italy.
If need be you can always inform the police that you were the one driving the car.
You do not have to convince me about the practical impossibility of presenting an appeal!
That’s also why, ……………….
I would wait for the registered fines. Read my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Al (not Alex)
I to have had two recorded letters with the A.R cards on (I still have them) claiming that I was driving in an unauthorized area in Florence, both fines are for 109euro and are 13 mins apart in different roads.
We where going back to Italy this year but this has put me off, so they loose 2000 odd euros that I would of spent, the fine which I would not pay anyway as the signs and road markings are not in English and the World Cup
Bob..
PS: are you saying that I should receive another recorded delivery and that has to be within the 360 days?
If you still have the detachable yellow (A.R.) cards, you have not signed for the registered fines and EMO can’t prove that you’ve been officially informed.
I would think that you’ll probably receive them again ( no guarantee
) and they must come within the 360 days.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that the offenders residing abroad must be (“officially”) notified within 360 days from the date of the infraction.
Remember that even if they come after 360 days you still have to dispute them and appeal to the Prefect.
Al (not Alex)
I have had a speeding ticket from 2009 in Tuscany. The time on the notice is different by 7 minutes to the time on the photograph – does this constitute enough for a successful appeal or should I just tell?? My 360 day limit will be up in a few days so in any event I have a little bit of time before either telling EMO or appealing.
Jeff,
In my view, I wouldn’t rely on the slight discrepancy between the time on the notice and the time on the photograph.
It does not “constitute enough” to dispute the fine, the speeding violation has well and truly been committed.
From what I understand you’ve just received the “unofficial” notice of payment.
If the 360 day notification time limit will really be up shortly I would wait for the official registered fine and ………… try & convince EMO that their theory about having 360 days to notify from the date of your “identification” is …….. total rubbish!
If you happen to be successful, please, do tell us!
Otherwise appeal to the Prefect within 60 days from the day of receipt of the official Notification.
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
But it seems to me you’ve already read Alex’s post on “Speeding, and ….” carefully.
Al (not Alex)
Thank you for your helpful comments. I am not sure if the piece of paper I got is the real thing or the informal notice that you refer to. I is headed “violation of the Highway Code” and “Report” and says that I have 60 days from receiving the violation report or notification to appeal etc. Do they need to have the “avviso di ricevimento” for service of the notice to be valid ?
Jeff,
It seems to me that you have received the Official Notification (violation of the Highway Code notice), the informal notice is headed “ Notice of payment before notification”.
The official fine must mention that you can appeal to the Prefect of … or the Judge of the Peace of … within 60 days …
It also usually states “in case of non-payment after 60 days, the liable amount will increase to …”
To be valid it must have been sent as a registered letter with proof of receipt (“avviso di ricevimento”) and within 360 days (not 365) from the date of the infraction.
Your postman should have asked you to sign for it or left a note asking you to pick it up at the post office.
Read comment on June 3, 2010 at 12:53 am.
Al (not Alex)
I have just this morning (28/6/2010) received a letter from Europcar with a traffic violation dated 19/10/2007. On checking my credit card statement the money has already been deducted. Are they allowed to do this so long after the alleged
violation?
Ian P
Ian,
The money deducted is almost certainly an “administration fee” (around 18 to 55€ per fine) following a request from the Italian authorities to Europcar to obtain the personal data of the car renter who committed the traffic violation.
When you signed the rental contract in 2007 you agreed to pay for the admin charge.
You’ll probably receive over the next few weeks (months) the actual fine.
Furthermore a fine for a 28-month-old traffic violation is absolutely not valid.
Art. 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days, calculated from the date of the infraction.
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comment on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am.
I would contest my credit card charge and get my money back because the fine (for an alleged violation) is not legally valid, thus the associated admin fee must therefore be equally invalid.
Europcar should ask the Italian Authorities (or the collection agencies) to be refunded for wasting their time with invalid fines!
These collection agencies (acting on behalf of the municipal police) keep on sending these invalid fines (over 360 days) because they expect the foreign offenders (“suckers”) to pay blindly.
After all there’s a 35% commission at stake here!
Al (not Alex)
Hey Al and Alex! This blog has been a big help in researching my numerous traffic fines from Florence. I was studying there (as a US resident) in the spring of 2009. While i was there my friends and I rented Vespas on numerous occasions. Anyway, long story short, i have received over 25 tickets for driving on the street where i lived, turns out it was a bus lane only and I never saw the sign. I understand the 360 day rule and ti turns out that only 5 of the 25+ tickets were sent within that 360 day period….the rest came over 400 days later. I have payed the ones that came in time….now, do i still need to appeal the additional tickets or do i just do nothing (since there were over 360 days)? Has anyone done this? Appealed a ticket over 360? Has it been successful? Will this appeal renew the fine and therefore negate the 360 day rule?
Hey Bryan,
Over 25 tickets! No half measures for you (and your friends)!
READ above my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
You’ll find most answers to your questions!
I assume that:
1 – The 20+ tickets remaining were really sent over 360 days after the date of the infraction,
2 – These 20+ tickets are all Official Notifications sent by registered mail,
3 – You’re still in time (60 days or less from the day(s) of receipt of these official 20+ tickets) to appeal.
YES! If you want to follow the legal procedure you absolutely have to appeal in Italian to the Prefect of Florence within those 60 DAYS. (Not a day after)
Those tickets (over 360 days) are perfectly valid unless you appeal!
A Prefect in his right mind can only do one thing, and that is to accept such a legitimate appeal (> 360 days, within 60 days, registered mail with proof of receipt, in Italian)
If, by any chance, he should reject your appeal, then …(fill in the gap)…him!
Now, to your last question:
1 – If you loose an appeal to a Prefect the fine roughly doubles. If you don’t pay or don’t appeal, the fine will double anyway.
2 – Negate the 360 day rule??? How???
The prescription time limit is 5 years. This means that the Italian authorities have five years to collect fines from the date of the infraction.
This time limit can be interrupted by any official act relevant to the fine!
BUT the police must send (to non-Italian residents) the fine (Official notification via registered mail) within 360 days (notification time limit) from the date of the infraction!
If they don’t, you can appeal.
So now the 5 year prescription time limit runs from the day they sent you the official fine (official act relevant to the fine).
If you appeal the 5 years will run from the day of receipt of your appeal……….
If I were you I would send one letter of appeal (see appeal template):
Modifications (plural for 20+ tickets!) in caps:
“Il sottoscritto”
“Oggetto: ricorso contro multE notificatE”
“titolare deI contrattI di noleggio deGLI SCOOTER targHE 1, 2, 3, ….”
“premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE, …, ha ricevuto I verbalI di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. N° 1ST FINE, N° 2ND FINE, …, fa notare che lE notificHE deGLI stessI SONO avvenutE oltre 360 giorni daI fattI, …….”
“Chiede che I provvedimentI vengaNO annullatI”
“Allega: fotocopiE deI verbalI notificatI”
Do not forget to enclose readable copies of the fines.
If you still have questions, ………
Al (not Alex)
I haven’t gotten yet, but expect to get a couple of fines for entering the ZTL of Rome Center and Trastavere. I kind of knew about the ones in FLORENCE and that they were mostly in day time hours. I had no idea about the ones in Rome.
After reading up here about handicap exceptions, I am curious if this applies to US citizens. My wife does have a registered handicap blue sticker here in the US.
Does a copy of this suffice for the fines to be removed?
I saw on the EMO site that you could provide proof of the handicap sticker, but wasn’t clear if that was only for an Italian handicaped sticker?
Does the handicapped sticker method work for US citizens?
I haven’t received yet, but expect to recieve two from Rome.
My wife does have a legitimate handicap and sticker here in US?
Hi Michael,
As I understand the situation regarding handicapped stickers, your nationality should not matter. Send EMO a copy of the sticker.
In your case, I suspect EMO will take steps to have the fines annulled.
Best of luck,
Alex
Hi. This is a very informative site. I have a similar problem. Rented a car with Europcar in December 2007 while in Italy. I got fined in Florence for driving in the inner city and paid “administration fees” automatically deducted from my credit card.
Today, 13 July 2010, I received a letter from the EMO that I must pay the fines within 20 days. Since it has been over 2 and a half years since the incident, my question is “should I just ignore it?”
PS. I am a Thai citizen and do not live in the EU.
Your advice is greatly appreciated!
Nile,
EMO purposely misleads foreign tourists (FAQ n°17 http://www.emo.nivi.it/Faq.aspx) when they claim shamelessly that they have 360 days from the date of their identification to notify the fine.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states very clearly that this 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic violation.
They give you 20 days to pay, this means that you received the informal notice (Notice of payment before notification) and that you can’t lodge an appeal at this stage.
I would write to EMO (infoemo-en@nivi.it) and ask them when I was “identified”.
(When were the “admin fees” deducted from your credit card?)
If the identification was made before July 2009 (over 360 days before the date on the notice) the fines are not valid even by their own (wrong) standards.
If so, EMO will cancel your fines.
If not, you can try and explain to them forcefully that the 360 day notification time limit doesn’t run from the day they finally decided to inquire with the car hire company about the drivers’ contact details. I wouldn’t be too optimistic, they’re pigheaded!
You can also appeal to the Prefect within 60 days from the day of receipt of the official(s) Notification(s).
READ “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and comments on April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am and June 28, 2010 at 9:51 pm.
At any rate, make sure…. to give EMO your best regards from…… beautiful Thailand (or wherever you live)!
Al (not Alex)
Appreciate the information. On May 18, 2009 I left a Villa I had stayed at in the Tuscany countryside and went to Florence to the hotel I was staying at in the historic district. I gave the hotel car tag information, dropped off the family and drove a short distance to return the rental car. Had some difficulty finding the rental garage but finally found it and returned the car. Today July 20, 2010, 14 months later, I received two separate Notice of Payment Before the Notification for “The vehicle circulated in limited traffic area without authoriztion” each notice seeking 133.03 euros. Reading through this site it appears that this is beyond the 365 day limit. Will I need to wait for the official registered notice and then do something?
JP,
The ZTL (Limited Traffic area) policy in Florence is the following:
“Tourists in cars who need to travel within the ZTL to reach their accommodation facilities or a garage can obtain a temporary access permit […] In order to obtain this permit, the number plate of the car concerned should be given to the relevant hotel […]
This permit will be issued for a maximum of two hours for baggage transport purposes and, therefore, only on the arrival and departure dates […] For the rest of their stay, clients should park their car outside the ZTL, in a commercial garage or the hotel’s own private garage.”
http://en.comune.firenze.it/transport/ztl.htm
It seems that, in your case, the hotel didn’t undertake to forward your license tag number to the appropriate office.
Contact your hotel via email, get proof that on May 18, 2009 you were checking into the hotel and send the information to EMO (infoemo-en@nivi.it).
EMO should then cancel your fines received within the time allowed (2 hours) on your arrival date.
If this “informal appeal” doesn’t work you could always try and explain to EMO that the 360 (not 365) day notification time limit runs from the day of the traffic violation. But, as I’ve already said, they’re stubborn and rather prefer to mislead foreign tourists on this matter.
Or, as a last resort, wait for the official registered notice and appeal to the Prefect of Florence.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al
I have been following this blog since I first got my “notice of payment before the notification” last month, for a driving-in-a-limited-zone infraction in Rome. The ‘offence’ took place on 23rd January 2009 and the official notification finally arrived last week, on the 27th July 2010.
The only other relevent date is that Europcar informed me that they had received notification from the police on 13th July 2009.
So, having read your blog and studied the Italian highway code, I understand that the 360 day rule should run from the date of the offence, not when the police finally get around to processing your details, so in theory I should be ok.
The ‘notification of violation’ says that I have 60 days either to appeal to the Prefect of Rome, OR “directly” to the Justice of the Peace of Rome. So, three questions:
1) Which is best, the Prefect or the JP?
2) Does anyone have any evidence that either of these two offices has any more integrity/efficiency/intelligence than the police force or the EMO? Are they likely to read the appeal at all? If they don’t, then apparently the fine will at least double, and they will add “proceedings fees” of an undisclosed amount!
3) When does THEIR definition of the 360 day limit (ie from when they get your driver details) end – the date they process your notification, or the date you sign for your letter. And when does it begin?
I ask because if Europcar invoiced me from my ‘admin fee’ on the 13/7/09 and I received my notification on 27/7/10, so clearly more than 360 days has passed even between these dates. But will the police claim simply that they received my details a week after Europcar processed the invoice, then sent their notification (actually dated 15/7/10) two weeks before I received it, to be within their 360 days?
I am disgusted at the thought that I should have to pay this fine. It is unfair, it is illegal and it has kept me away from Italy, where I used to be a regular visitor, for the last year an a half. I have no intention to visit Italy again, and certainly not to rent a car, if I can help it.
But equally, I’m sure that the forces that exist to enforce this fine against me are more powerful than any that might help me fight it. I even wrote to 2 different MEPs, and what do they say? Well, one of their underlings writes back to you with the standard line quoted by the EMO.. So should I just pay and avoid increasing fines?
Your in anger and perplexity
dom
Hi Dominic,
This is Al, not Alex (and his blog).
–> Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page.
Please read also my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment and all other comments since then.
You got that right! –> “not when the police … finally … get around to processing your details”.
1) The Prefect!
For the Justice of the Peace since January 1, 2010 you are required to pay 38 € beforehand, …….
2) “integrity/efficiency/intelligence” ?
Would you be so kind as to tell me what do those words mean in this context?
Thanks for the good laugh!
The Prefect of Rome should read your appeal and cancel the fine because clearly the 360 day time limit from the date of the offence has run out.
3) According to THEIR (absolutely wrong) definition:
From the date of receipt of your driver details sent by the car rental company to the date they send you the official notification, the day they give it to the post office.
So yes, good question!
Europcar admin fee –> 13/7/09
But when did the police, EMO receive your driver details?
Europcar could have processed the invoice a week, … after sending your details?
Notification dated 15/7/10,
But more importantly what is the postmark date on the envelope? Is it the same?
This is too close for comfort! Remember that 360 days is NOT one year (365 days)!
I would:
1) Call or send an email to EMO to determine on which date you were identified.
I know for a fact that EMO has already cancelled fines which were sent over 360 days after identification.
2) This is optional!
Tell EMO that you’re “outraged” that an agency mandated by official Authorities should lie so flagrantly to foreign tourists about the 360 day rule!
That they should cancel the fine without further ado! ……………
3) Appeal to the Prefect of Rome WITHIN 60 days of reception of the official notification (see template).
Finally I would never ever pay this invalid fine.
Ultimately I would appeal to the Prefect.
Either he follows the law and cancels the fine or …………. for all I care!
Let us know and if you have more questions….
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al (not Alex)
Thanks for the advice. I have written to EMO, but on the basis of what others have said, I doubt whether they will do anything other than repeat the “360 days from identification of driver” line, and tell me to write to the prefect… if they bother to reply at all.
I have actually phoned the British embassy in Rome and 2 local MEPs (as I said earlier) and they all seem to just blindly buy this lie. In other words, couldn’t care less!
The real question I suppose is, has anybody actually sent anything like the letter template usefully provided earlier in this blog to the prefect and got their fine cancelled? If there were people on this blog queuing up to say that they had got their fines overturned in this way, then I would do it without thinking… As it is, I’m understandably worried that the prefect might not give a monkeys about such claims, however justified, and simply double the fine!
Hi again Alex.
BBC’s Radio 4′s “You & Yours” consumers’ programme broadcast another piece on ZTL fines today, though it didn’t add much to its previous piece (see my 19 March post above) nor the comments in this thread.
You can listen at http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0094hjv, or if that doesn’t work, try http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00t3td5 and click the “Chapter 3″ button.
Keep up the good work!
Hi Pablo,
Thanks for coming back to let us know about the BBC “You & Yours” consumers’ programme. At the end of the day though, there does not seem to be too much which can be done.
If Italy starts sending out the notifications more quickly, then it will become very difficult to challenge these fines. Still, if someone has been caught speeding, he or she should really pay up.
The ZTLs are another matter, as they are not always clearly signposted. However, as you may have noted from Al’s (Al is not me, I’m ‘Alex’) useful comments and observations, appealing these fines is not at all easy.
I hope that one day GPS makers will add ZTL warnings so that people can know they are about to enter one of these zones, but this would mean collaborating with Italian local authorities who a) are strapped for cash b) make money from these fines c) are not always that well organised. a) and b) are connected
As you can see, there does not seem to be much of a solution at the moment. We can only hope that some well-heeled person gets caught and has the resources and will to take this through all of Italy’s courts and to the ECHR, but I doubt really anyone will bother for the sake of what is generally not much more than a few hundred Euros. I know this is a significant sum for many, but would not be for the kind of person who has the weight to take this to court.
One other possibility is that a motoring organisation takes this on board – as such a body will have the finances to push this through the courts. But, as every lawyer (which I’m not) knows, courts can be fickle and it is not easy to know what the outcome of a case will be, unless everything is very clear cut.
I almost forgot to add that Italy’s courts are very slow, so even if someone kicked a case off tomorrow, it might be 10+ years or so before a definitive result is achieved
Hope springs eternal as they say, so you never know.
Kind regards,
Alex (not Al!)
PS Many thanks to Al for all his input
Dominic,
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) is crystal clear for the Judges of the Italian Constitutional Court (the highest judicial body), the lawyers at ADUC (Association for the Rights of Users and Consumers), the Municipality of Arezzo in its “Decision” to outsource the collection of foreign drivers fines to EMO, …
It’s child’s play to understand it if you speak a little Italian and you’re not in bad faith.
I can tell you that the French Consulates in Rome and Florence do not buy this despicable lie and inform correctly French traffic offenders.
As I’ve already said Italians do appeal to the Prefect when their notification time limit has run out.
It’s even easier in the case of foreign traffic offenders because there’s no “identification notion” to eventually meddle things up.
Either you’ve been notified over 360 days after the date of the traffic violation or not!
It would be such a denial of Justice for a Prefect to reject such an appeal.
What are we expected to do from abroad? Go through the entire legal process to be vindicated in such a simple matter?
After an extensive and excruciating ( slight exaggeration
) research, I have put together (and translated) an appeal letter.
This letter template is standard, adapted from similar letters sent by Italian residents to their Prefects.
If I were in your (fortunate) situation I’d definitely send the letter of appeal.
If the Prefect denies my appeal, well …., I’d send him (& EMO) packing and would certainly never pay the fine doubled.
Best!
Al (not Alex)
Hi,
First of all, thank you for the excellent and detailed information on this blog!
I’ve just received formal notification of a speeding offence in Sardinia. The date of the alleged offence was 22 August 2009 and the notification is dated 22 July 2010. I did not previously receive any informal correspondence from EMO or equivalent. I am considering appealing this to the prefect of police on two grounds:
a) As more than 210 days elapsed between the alleged offence and the date of the notice, I have not been notified of the allegation within a reasonable time. If I appeal on these grounds I will refer to Part 1 Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights and case C-224/00.
b) As my surname is spelled incorrectly on the notification, I will argue that it has not been validly served. I will, of course, wait until at least the 17th August before sending this appeal so that any revised notification they send will fall after the 360 day limit. I have checked my correspondence with the hire company and they had the correct details. All other details are correct (though there’s no way I can remember any details of the alleged offence – I don’t even know where I was driving at the time set out in the notice!).
I have a few questions on which I’d very much appreciate any comments:
1) Though I appreciate that you are not in a position to give legal advice, do you have any general comments on my chances of the above being successful?
2) Specifically, do you agree that my proposed application of C-224/00 is right?
3) The 11 May update appears to indicate that the revised wording to the law gives the authorities 60 days to send fines to drivers resident in Italy. You then say that the relevance of case C-224/00 “will be diminished, if not reduced to zero”. Am I right in thinking that the revised highway code has not yet been enacted into law and therefore, even if its effect were retrospective (i.e. it were to apply to offences comitted and/or notified prior to the revision) it would not apply to my case and I would therefore have to rely on the Article 6 and C-224/00 argument.
4) In your 17 February 2010 update you highlighted the words/phrases: “within a reasonable time”, “presumed innocent” and “promptly” in Part 1 Article 6. I am a little concerned, however, that clauses 2 and 3 appear to apply only to criminal offences, while clause 1 appears to also apply to “determination of … civil rights and obligations”. Are speeding and other motoring offences within the definition of criminal offences for the purposes of ECHR? Failing that, do fines for them come within the determination of civil obligations?
5) Does anyone have any experience of failed appeals? If I get a rejection along with a demand for double the amount, would it be worth sending the original amount along with another letter, again referring to ECHR and the disproportionality of being penalised for exercising my statutory right to appeal, and then hope that they don’t bother with the paperwork associated with chasing the balance?
Once again, many thanks!
Gareth
Gareth,
As you rightly pointed out: “you are not in a position to give legal advice”, so these are just my observations:
a) EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00 dealt with offenders of the Italian highway code who were pulled up by the police “on the spot”.
Italy has complied to judgement of EC with Law 3 February 2003, n. 14.
–> While Italian residents may pay the “reduced fine” within 60 days, EU residents (+ Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway / EEA – European economic area) have to pay that same amount “on the spot”.
So, as you can see, there’s still “different and disproportionate treatment of offenders” but this article of the Italian highway code is now in accordance with EU regulation.
It could be argued that the Italian police are now able to notify European Union residents (through automatic exchange of vehicle and driving licence information) as fast, if not faster
than Italian residents (through their own DVLA).
To have some chance of success you’d probably have to appeal all the way up to the Italian Constitutional Court or even the Court of Justice of the European Communities.
But to my mind what counts is that a Judge of the Peace (not to mention a Prefect) won’t give a rat’s ass about C-224/00, or Part 1 Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights.
b) Surname misspelled !
)
Is it a serious factual error? Is your surname “Smith”, whereas “Smitth” was written on the notification?
This could very well be interpreted as a typing error, a minor error, especially considering that “all other details are correct” and that you’ve signed for the registered notification, thus admitting implicitly that you were the person it was addressed to.
What you should probably have done was refuse to accept the notification stating something like: “nobody by that name at this address” (and not “wrong name of addressee” – how do you know the name is wrong?
Where you were driving at the time, where the traffic violation was committed must be mentioned on the fine.
1), 2) See a), b). It seems to me that you’ve been validly notified.
3) Revisions to Italy’s highway code have finally been approved.
With Law 29 July 2010, n. 120 it is now:
–> 90 days (not 150 any more) (from date of infraction or identification) to notify Italian residents.
–> No change for foreign residents. It’s still 360 days from date of infraction!
The change (150 to 90 days for Italian residents) will apply only for violations committed after this law will enter into force. That means on August 13th.
5) Prefects reject 99% of appeals!
The only result you’ll obtain from appealing on the grounds of ECHR or C-224/00 is likely to be a Prefect in stitches while desperately trying to grab a pre-printed letter of rejection.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
As you know, if your appeal is turned down by the Prefect you‘ll be ordered to pay about double the fine. You then (if you wish) have 30 days to appeal to the Judge of the Peace…
Sending the original amount is pointless! Will they chase the balance? You’d have to ask them! It probably depends on the amount and their “willingness”.
Either you feel that it’s a “legitimate” fine and you want … “peace of mind” or you’re not intimidated by repeated notifications and you’ll wait peacefully for mutual recognition of financial penalties, including those related to road traffic offences and for cross-border enforcement of traffic offences in the EU to be really effective.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/sep/13/motoring.consumeraffairs
http://europeanjournal.typepad.com/my_weblog/2010/07/eu-road-safety-action-plan.html
Al (not Alex)
Hi Gareth,
Can I “butt in” to Al (not Alex)’s excellent response, as you refer to some ECHR issues mentioned in my 7 Mar post quoted in the 17 Feb Important Update near the top of this thread? I too am not a lawyer, so you should take professional advice before acting on this.
Firstly, be careful not to confuse Art.6 of ECHR with Art.6 of the EC Treaty, on which case C-224/00 was based. Although both are part of EU legislation, they are not otherwise connected. The first is about fair treatment under Human Rights legislation, whereas the second is about discrimination grounded on nationality (to which ECHR Pt.1 Art.14 also applies). Mentioning them together would only befuddle the authorities and/or judge/s. You can challenge liability under either ECHR Pt.1 Art.6 or case C-224/00 (which I think is still valid in principle), but not both at once.
You ask if speeding & other motoring offences are criminal offences. I’m not familiar with Italian legal codes, so don’t know if such contraventions are “criminal” – perhaps Al (not Alex) can help here. The only parallel I know of in UK law is whether such issues are dealt with in the criminal or civil justice system. For example, speeding offences are pursued in the magistrates court, while Congestion Zone and most parking offences are pursued in civil courts (though under statutory rules & procedures). Al (not Alex) says penalties can be appealed to a Prefect or Justice/Judge of the Peace (or whatever they’re called). I don’t know if a Prefect is a criminal law officer, but I would guess a JP probably is, thus indicating that such offences are criminal – over to Al (not Alex) for clarification.
Of course, if they are actually civil “offences”, then you have absolutely no obligation to pay unless & until the allegation has been proved in court and the claimant awarded a court order. In that case, Ch.II Art.2 of the Brussels Regulation (Council Regulation (EC) 44/2001) requires a defendant in such a civil action to be sued in his country of domicile, so the Italian authority would have to send its legal team to your local civil court and prove its case under your country’s procedures and standards of evidence & proof. In the UK, if the case is proved and you don’t pay within a month the unsatisfied County Court Judgement will be registered with Credit Reference Agencies, which could then affect your credit status and hence your ability to obtain credit in the UK.
As for sending money with an appeal, I’m with Al (not Alex) – I’ll bet that’s the last you’d see or hear of it: having got your money, what incentive do they have to return it, and why would they allow your appeal? Anyhow, the “disproportionality” bit refers to different treatment due to nationality, not penalties for exercising your rights.
I’d say forget the whole thing and stop worrying. If they chase you, start by asking for evidence as suggested in my 7 Mar post.
Best o’luck!
PabloUK (not Al or Alex)
Hi PabloUK & Gareth,
In Italy the only motoring offences which are criminal are:
- Setting up and/or participating in unauthorised motor vehicle races (Art 9, 9bis & 9 ter Highway Code),
- Driving while under the influence of alcohol (Art 186),
(Upwards of 0,8 g/l but the legal limit is 0,5 g/l)
- Driving while under the influence of drugs (Art 187),
- “Hit and Run” – Failure to stop and render aid to injured parties in case of accidents involving personal injury (Art 189).
The Prefetto is the State’s representative in a province.
You lodge an appeal with a Prefect only if you’re practically certain it’ll result in a positive outcome (notification time limit has run out, serious factual error).
For instance appealing against a ZTL fine(s) is a waste of time. The Prefect’s underling will just make sure that the offence(s) has really been committed before rejecting your appeal.
The Giudice di Pace ( JP, Justice of the Peace – you’re right, one must say “Justice” – English is not my mother tongue as you may have surmised
) is a first instance Court. The JP (4700 in Italy) is an honorary magistrate holding office for 4 years and is responsible for administering:
- Civil justice: dealing with cases of relatively low financial value,
- Criminal justice: dealing with cases of low importance.
The standard procedure is to appeal to a Justice of the Peace.
But you must attend the hearing (or get someone to attend, preferably a lawyer). And since the 1st of January 2010 you are required to pay 38 €; they don’t tell you how to go about doing this because it has not been anticipated for residents abroad.
In the end you loose the appeal, not on merit, but because you didn’t pay the 38€ and/or you were unable to attend the hearing! ………………
Winning an appeal is no easy task for Italian residents and a nearly impossible proposition for residents abroad.
For any chance of success, you’d have to take issues such as Art 6 ECHR or C-224/0 through all of Italy’s courts and… beyond.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al (not Alex)
By “For instance appealing against a ZTL fine(s) is a waste of time. The Prefect’s underling will just make sure that the offence(s) has really been committed before rejecting your appeal.”, you presumably mean to exclude appeals made on the grounds that the time limit of 360 days has expired?
Hi Dominic,
Sure, that’s what I mean !
That sentence was referring to ZTL fine(s) validly (in time) notified to the offender.
I wrote in that same comment: “You lodge an appeal with a Prefect only if you’re practically certain it’ll result in a positive outcome (notification time limit has run out, serious factual error).”
Whether you’ve been fined for speeding, ZTL, …, is not relevant. You present the appeal only on the grounds that the 360 day notification time limit from the date the offence was committed has run out.
In your case, if the matter can’t be resolved with EMO, I would really take the trouble to send the appeal letter. It’s likely to be the last you’ll hear of this fine unless you receive a letter from the Prefect of Rome confirming the cancellation of the fine.
Do not let the “60 days from reception of the official notification” go by before sending the appeal letter.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al (not Alex)
Thanks for the info about criminal -v- civil offences. I must say I’m very surprised that so few motoring offences are criminal.
Before deciding whether to accept or challenge the penalty, I think Gareth should firstly ask the authority to clarify if the offence is criminal or civil. Then, it seems to me he has three choices:
- If the offence is “criminal” he can rely on the ECHR defence or case C-224/0, as appropriate;
- If not, he can ignore all payment requests until served with a claim issued by his local civil court, if in the EU. Then demand evidence as suggested in my 7 Mar post, to verify that:
– the restriction was legally valid,
– that it applied at the time of alleged infringement, and
– that he actually infringed it;
- Pay up.
Citizens of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland can rely on the Lugano Convention, which has the same effect as the Brussels Regulation does in the EU. Citizens of other countries should ask their local civil court about any similar agreements with Italy.
Beware that the Brussels Regulation and Lugano Convention both allow an EU claimant to enforce an uncontested civil court judgment as if it were given in the defendant’s country. However, the defendant can appeal if not properly notified of the claim or if other rules & procedures were not followed, or due to erroneous jurisdiction.
Guys,
I received letters from EMO stating about fines from various Italian cities about a year ago. Fines date back to September 2008 (almost two years already). Till the moment only two or three scaring remainding letters about doubling the amount of the fines and possibility of legal procedures (I am not an EU citizen).
Has anyone been not paying the fines longer?
Best regards, Sid
Sid,
It’s not clear from reading your post if you ever received any of these letters (fines) by registered mail?
“Has anyone been not paying the fines longer?”: Yes, of course!
Al (not Alex)
I too have felt the wrath of the Italian traffic violation benevolent fund. Congratulations on the blog it’s excellent.
My fines are from Alghero in Sardinia as opposed to Pisa but the fines and procedures seem to be the same for all Italy.
I received 4 fines of €115.90 for driving in a restricted traffic area on four occasion within the space of a couple of days. Like just about everyone else I was blissfully unaware that I was dicing with the law.
I would appreciate it if someone could tell me in bullet points the procedure the authorities follow if fines are not paid.
So far I have received:
# 4 letters notifying that I should pay the administrative sanction relating to the offences. These came 7 months after the offences.
# 2 registered letters saying I am guilty of the offence (I expect 2 more to arrive soon) stating I have 60 days to pay or each fine will be increase from €115.90 to €189.90. I also have 60 days to appeal. These letters arrived 15 months after the offence.
So if I fail to pay these fines within 60 days what is the next and subsequent steps the authorities will take.
Money is tight at the moment and coughing up €460 would be very painful for me right now.
Hi “Will Do Jail Time”,
If you’ve read this “excellent blog” (or at least part of it) you know that there’s a 360 day time limit from the date of the offence to notify residents abroad.
In your case the 360 day time limit has clearly (15 months) run out and I would “strongly” advise you to send a letter of appeal to the Prefect.
To avoid repeated notifications ( and possibly jail time
) will cost you one (or two) registered letter(s) with proof of receipt to Sardinia and a little time to copy/paste the appeal template included in April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
The 4 letters you received are informal notices (Notice of payment before notification).
The (first) two registered letters are Official Notifications (violation of the Highway Code notice).
Alghero is in the province of Sassari. So, (and I believe this is mentioned in the registered letters) you must address your letter: “Al Prefetto di Sassari”.
The address is: Piazza d’Italia 31, 07100 Sassari.
Be sure to follow the procedure clearly outlined and do not let the “60 days from reception of the official notification” go by before sending the appeal letter.
Read comments on April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am, July 9, 2010 at 9:19 am and (if possible) all other comments since May.
Al (not Alex)
Thanks for the response Al. i wasn’t sure if it was 360 days to the receipt of the “Notice of payment before notification”. As it is a 360 day limit to when the registered letters arrive I will certainly make an appeal.
Thank’s
It looks like I might have avoided a week in the can.
Hi Al
In your post on 29 April 2.32am you wrote the following:
“I can not guarantee 100% that a Prefect might not reject a legitimate (> 360 days, within 60 days, registered mail, in Italian) appeal!
Because a Prefect might give a casual glance at an appeal request, grab a pre-printed letter and reject the appeal.
Because rejecting is easier, the appeal can still be “forwarded” to the Judge of the Peace within 30 days.
BUT this is a straightforward decision! Time limit has run out!
Prefects do reject 99% of appeals but really should NOT in such a case. Italians do appeal to the Prefect when their notification time limit has run out.”
I just want to clarify the procedure in very basic terms:
1) Complete the the appeal letter in Italian as per the letter template you posted on 29 April 2010.
2) Send the letter to the Prefect by registered post and the registered letter must provide proof the Prefect received the letter.
3) The Prefect adjudicates on the appeal and will most likely turn down the appeal.
4) If the Prefect turns down the appeal he must send his decision to the Judge of the Peace within 30 days.
5) Here I am a little unclear – Does the Judge of the Peace go against the Prefects decisions and wipe out the fines based on the 360 day rule?
Maybe I am a bit cynical but I can’t foresee the Judge of the Peace wiping out these fines and it would not surprise me if they would remain on the Italian system unpaid.
Has anybody every received notification that their fine has been wiped from the slate based on appeal?
I certainly agree with your approach Al in that it is good to follow procedure in the event that these fines might raise their head at an inopportune time in the future. Having a decision against me for unpaid fines is not something I would want to carry with me.
Thanks for your help.
Hi “Will Do Jail Time”,
1) Yes!
If I were you I would send one letter of appeal for the first 2 registered letters (fines), or for the four fines, depending on when you receive the last 2 registered letters.
The important thing, naturally, is to abide by the “60 day rule from reception….”
Modifications (plural for 2+ tickets!) in caps:
“Il sottoscritto”
“Oggetto: ricorso contro multE notificatE…”
“premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE, …, ha ricevuto I verbalI di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. N° 1ST FINE, N° 2ND FINE, …, fa notare che lE notificHE deGLI stessI SONO avvenutE oltre 360 giorni daI fattI, …….”
“Chiede che I provvedimentI vengaNO annullatI”
“Allega: fotocopiE deI verbalI notificatI”
Do not forget to enclose readable copies of the fines.
2) Yes!
Registered letter WITH proof of receipt!
3) Well, no! The Prefect’s underling should absolutely not reject your appeal!
! So don’t expect me to give you a 100% guarantee!
Your official notifications are dated (I expect) July/August 2010, well over 360 days after the date of the traffic violation.
Either you’ve been notified over 360 days after the date of the offence or not!
As I said this should be a straightforward decision. But this is Italy
I can only assure you that this is the standard procedure and that Italians do appeal to the Prefect in such a case.
4) No! If the Prefect turns down the appeal you’ll be ordered to pay roughly double the fine (the €189.90 you mentioned in your first post + procedural costs).
Then you can appeal against his “injunction” to the Justice of the Peace within (actually) 60 days for residents abroad, 30 for Italian residents (Art. 205). (That is what I meant by “forwarded”)
5) Of course a Justice of the Peace can overrule the Prefect’s decision.
But this is idle talk.
In my opinion after having appealed to the Prefect you’d have made every conceivable effort to follow the Italian procedure.
As I’ve already written: “It would be such a denial of justice for a Prefect to reject such an appeal. What are we expected to do from abroad? Go through the entire legal process to be vindicated in such a simple matter?”
I can’t see any significant difference between not paying your fines and having the Prefect turn down your appeal.
You have three options:
- Do nothing (which is always a possibility),
- Pay the reduced amount within the time limit,
- Take advantage of being fortunate enough that your fines were sent over 360 days… and take the trouble to follow procedure and write that appeal letter to the Prefect.
Should the Prefect deny the appeal, ….
The idea of being a “sucker” doesn’t appeal to me.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
P.S./ I trust your name is appropriate.
wow-
apparently, in our process of returning the rental car in rome [train station], and being utterly w/o directions as to how to do so]-we have racked up two different fines, for 25 euro plu ssome 5 uero fee on top. our credit card was charged(over 3 months after we returned home to California), and now two weeks later, we finally get bills from Hertz (which I suspect they ONLY sent b/c we denied the charged to our cc company).
The Hertz letters are in Italian-I have no clue what the ‘infaction was’-only that it had to have been while we were figuring out how to return the rental car. Any suggestions from anyone? This was rush hour on a Friday, and we found we had to go round a nd round to get into a parking garage to return our car. We have received no notice from the Italian police [Municipal Roma’ or whateve ryou call it)
Should we tell Hertz they are not authorized to charge our card, and that we need proof of the infaction? Closing the credit card we used is not an option in this case-also b/c they have already chaged the card and we filed the appeal with them.
A trip to Italy: The gift that keeps on….scr*wing you out of Euros. LOL
Frankly, our Ttrip was underwhelming. Overated and overpriced-that’s how I saw Italy, and I saw 2/3 of it from Puglia up thru Tuscany. I am not impresssed, and have NO interest in returning to Italy at any time in my life. Too many other fish in the sea. Even the food and wine did not impress. And Rome is totally overrated. But Italians are wonderful people!
Rant aside-I was looking online to translate this info, and came up with this blog-thanks for the info.
Irm,
Italy overrated ?
Not bloody (or should I select an other word more commonly used in the US) able to find decent food and wine in Italy?
Perhaps I’d better say no more!
Luckily you admit to be “ranting”! I’m sure you won’t let a couple of fines get the better of your judgment!
Rant aside
– The 25€ (+ 5€ – 20% VAT) charge is NOT the fine.
It’s an “admin fee” from Hertz following a request from the Italian police to obtain the personal data of the car renter who committed the traffic violation.
When you signed the rental contract you surely agreed to pay for the admin charge. Read the small print.
You’ll receive over the next few weeks (months) the actual fine from EMO (http://www.emo.nivi.it/).
EMO is a collection agency officially mandated by an ever increasing number of Italian Municipalities to collect fines from foreign drivers.
While you were attempting to return your rental car you probably entered a ZTL (Zona a Traffico Limitato – Restricted traffic zone). Scroll down this page.
If you “have NO interest in returning to Italy at any time in my life”, ………………..
Al (not Alex)
ps-the fine is for verbale fine on line and the ‘fine’ itself is only for 5 eruros! The ‘spese administrative’ is 25 euro on top. Can anyone assist in clarifying? I am very grateful!
well, i have come across this info from http://www.complaintsboard.com :
Same amount 30E, Hertz also, from March this year….so I’m going with this for my particular case
Comments Sort by: Date | Rating
178 days ago by mercier 0 Votes
I had the same. I received a bill from Hertz Italia for 30 Eur stating Verbale fine on line issued by Novate Milanese. The problem is that I was driving from Bologna Airport to Parma…not at all around Novate Milanese.
What happened to you next ?
53 days ago by BuckinghamPA 0 Votes
Same thing happened to me in march. This is a total fraud. I contacted American Express and, without batting an eye, took the charge off my credit card. Said it was one of the allowable charges to be reversed. My only theory is that they have seen this time and again from Hertz Italia. Must be a “gentlemens handshake” with Italian polizia and Hertz
Irm,
As you will have seen from earlier posts in this thread, many others (including me – see my 28 Feb post) have had the same problem. Al (not Alex) is correct – these are NOT fines, just Hertz’s charges (including sales tax, NOT a fine) for giving the hirer’s personal data to the Roman municipal police. As he says, the rental Terms & Conditions probably allow that when you commit a traffic offence.
Ask Hertz to cancel the charges on the ground that you have not been officially notified of any offence or related fine. If that doesn’t work, go back to your your credit card issuer and ask it to reverse the charges as unsubstantiated because:
* Hertz has not:
– identified the rental term/s and/or condition/s under which it claims payment
– supplied any evidence of the “administrative expenses” claimed, how they were calculated or
– where, when and/or how they were incurred.
* Neither Hertz nor Comune di Roma has supplied any evidence:
– of the nature of the supposed traffic violations
– that the alleged violations are legally valid
– that the alleged violations actually occurred
– of the penalties applicable for the alleged violations
– that any such penalties have been imposed
– that you are liable for any such penalties.
Point out that if a “fine” is suspect or the allegation not proved, any associated fees & charges must therefore be equally invalid.
Any advice for this situation? I have a disabled parking permit, and a friend visiting from the states was using my car, also to drive me places. He accidentally parked in someone else’s reserved handicapped space: there were 3, and not being familiar with the ins and outs of Italian disabled parking he chose the the only one that was an individual space, and the car was ticketed. I guess legally I have to send in his driver’s license etc. as the driver at the time of the infraction, but will this mean that he gets the fine in the States? Is there any way I can keep this from happening? It seems so stupid. Thanks for your help.
Misty,
Advice given with no guarantee!
This is an unusual situation!
At present you have only the ticket found on the windscreen?
Is the traffic violation number mentioned?
I had a look at the Italian Highway Code.
For Art. 188,4 the fine is 78€ and … 2 points are deducted from the driver’s license.
For Art. 188,5 the fine is 38€.
I think (but I’m not sure) that Art. 188,5 should apply in your case.
So if it’s Art. 188,4 you’ll be asked to give the driver’s details.
Will they send the fine in the States? Presumably. But no point deduction!
If it’s Art. 188,5 I would naturally pay the 38€ fine.
Make sure that there’s no point deduction.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Alex,
I wonder if you could take the time to confirm that I have read everything correctly on your sight as the fear of a fine getting doubled is worrying. Today I received via registered post a notice of prosecutin for a restricted zone (230810) The notice tells me an offence was committed on 240609!!! Which is obviously a long time ago and well over the 360 day time frame. My question is in two parts. a) As its over the limit am I right in assuming an appeal will be successful, has anyone confirmed this is the case? b) I and one other were insured and as the time frame is so huge we cannot remember who was driving. In this country you cannot prosecute if you dont know who the driver is. Is this a legitimate way around it? Id like to also say we did not commit this offence willfully. The charge is 119 euros but I feel I have grounds to appeal. Many thanks Shawn
Shawn,
a) You are perfectly right in assuming an appeal will be successful!
Although collection agencies such as EMO mislead foreign tourists deliberately, Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states very clearly that the 360 day time limit runs from the day of the offence.
“Has anyone confirmed this is the case?” This is still pretty new!
People who sent the appeal letter have yet to receive a response. A Prefect has up to 360 days to inform you of his decision, if he ever does.
b) Art 196,1 (Solidarity principle) states that as owner of your (private) vehicle, or as holder of the rental agreement of the vehicle, you are considered to be jointly liable with the author of the traffic violation for the payment of the fine.
(I believe Art 196 is mentioned in your registered letter)
You can always sue your wife, friend,… to recover the amount of the fine.
Identifying the driver is relevant when points are deducted from the driver’s license. If the owner doesn’t give the driver’s details he’s subjected to a 263€ (up to 1050€) fine. (Art 126-bis)
I don’t know who sent you the fine. You can email demanding that your fine be cancelled on the grounds of Art 201.
If this “informal appeal” doesn’t work I would absolutely send, within 60 days, the appeal letter to the Prefect.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included), August 21, 2010 at 9:58 pm and scroll down through the comments since May.
Al (not Alex)
Just another piece fo the story. We received four fines in June from a trip in November 08. I emailed back and forth with the EMO and was able to get two of them discarded as they were on days that we checked into our hotel. I ended up ignoring the other two, as they would not understand that we were loading our luggage for a 3 AM departure the next day.
Fast forward to last week when I get a call from Cedar Financial, a debt collection agency in California. They say I need to pay the fines within thirty days or my name will be “flagged” and I may have to deal with the fines in customs if I enter Italy or the EU again. I’m tempted to jsut pay them ($660 US) and get it over with, but I am also thinking that I may risk not paying them. I have also tried to get back in touch with my hotel in Florence to get an email saying we “checked out” on the day of the fines.
Another option is offering the debt collection company that I will pay for one, since they were 10 minutes apart. He did assure me that NOTHING will be reported on my credit history either way.
In my opinion, the Florence police, and then the EMO have gone a long way to collect these fines, so maybe they mean business. I guess I made a mistake by contacting the EMO in the first place, as they now have all of my email correspondance. I guess that’s what you get for trying to do things the right way.
jd,
As you know the ZTL (restricted traffic zone) permits in Florence are issued for a maximum of two hours for baggage transport purposes and, therefore, only on the arrival and departure dates.
So, strictly speaking, you didn’t load your luggage within the allotted time frame.
Even though they could have been a little lenient considering your 3am departure the next day.
It’s shameful the way these Italian municipalities “hand out” those multiple ZTL fines (within a short time frame).
If June 2010 was the first time you received these fines via registered mail, they were invalid because they were sent over 360 days after the day of the traffic violation.
Nevertheless, you still had to dispute them and appeal to the Prefect within 60 days from reception of the official notification.
Emo will continue dishing invalid fines out without so much as blinking an eye because there’s a 35% commission at stake, many will pay up out of fear, peace of mind, … and they know that it’s rather difficult for foreigners to challenge the legality of these fines.
I’m a little surprised that the two remaining fines were “sold” that quickly to a debt collection agency.
In my opinion, the “name flagged…” matter is an empty threat from Cedar Financial!
Debt collection agencies are very skilled at this “game”.
Now that those two fines are in the hands of Cedar Financial, they won’t care about any letter from a hotel in Florence. Only EMO (or the Florence municipal police) could have cancelled them.
And lastly, you did very well to contact Emo and have your first two fines cancelled. A pity you didn’t know about the 360 day notifying time limit for the other two.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al-
Thanks for the reply. I should have been more clear, we did get them first in June of 2009, so they were within the 365 days. The more I think about it after talking with him, I think we may just not pay them. I agree that the customs threat seems empty, but at first when they got ahold of me I was a bit rattled I must admit. I think I’m going to wait it out and if they call back, ask them for evidence that they are indeed working with the EMO.
Thanks-
Hello again Al
I think I have managed to get my local MP’s office interested in this problem. So, as far as you know, would a British MP be able to appeal to the Prefect of Rome on my behalf, to overturn a fine that has passed its 360 day time limit, or do I have to do it myself?
I assume that an MP’s letter will stand more chance of being read than my own.
Cheers
Hi again Dominic,
No luck with EMO? Did they at least reply?
As far as I know,…..?
Well, as far as I know, I’d say that you were the one driving through a ZTL in Rome in January 2009. Or, at least, you were the holder of the rental agreement.
This is why you received the fine and you’re the one who must appeal.
(Furthermore I have my doubts that the Prefect’s underling would be overly impressed by a British MP’s letter)
Of course your letter of appeal will be read!
Italian Prefects receive letters of appeal daily, a number of them for notification time limit overrun.
And I wouldn’t worry if I had to wait quite a while for proof of receipt.
Copy/paste the appeal template and send your registered letter with proof of receipt to:
Al Sig. Prefetto di Roma
Prefettura di Roma
via IV Novembre 119/A
00187 Roma
Best,
Al (not Alex)
I emailed the EMO twice – no reply. Ba*****s!!
Hi Al,
Thank you very much for your excellent blog!
I have the following address for the Prefect of ROMA on all my 4 fines of July/2009:
U.O. Contravvenzioni del Comune di Roma
Via Ostiense 131/L, 00154 – Roma
You’ve mentioned an other adddress for Rome earlier somewhere.
i guess I have to use my given one, right?
Janos
Hi Al / Alex
Came back from a holiday in Australia to find the “Fine Notification of the Road Traffic Code” code letter from Comune di Riomaggiore relating to an alleged speeding offence (66km/h in 50km/h) on 10th April 2011 when my wife and I were in Italy in the Cinque Terre. The yellow A.R. form was still attached to the envelope – does this mean that I have not been formally notified as it has not been returned and that I should just wait for another to turn up (hopefully after 360 days)?
There is detail of a website on the rear of the letter where apparently I can see proof of the infrigement but when I go to this site it comes up as an “Untrusted” site and Firefox warns me fervently about the dangers of opening it as it has an invalid security certificate. So, I haven’t looked yet and am reluctant to risk the security of my laptop to check whether the Carabinieri have done their job properly or not.
Should i just sit tight for now?
Thanks for this amazingly informative blog.
John
Hi John,
Riomaggiore is also known for its autovelox (speed camera).
The speed limit is set artificially low (50) on a straight stretch of road.
You’re just one of the many “victims” of this speed trap.
The numbers are just staggering!
Yes, it does mean that you have not been formally notified.
Will they send another one? Maybe. Probably not.
Will you be chased by a debt collection agency?
I don’t know if the Comune di Riomaggiore resorts to such agencies in your country of residence. Probably not. Anyway, they can not legally enforce the fine.
How nice of Firefox to warn you “fervently”!
Why would you ever wish to log into their website?
Let’s relax and sit tight!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thanks Al. I’ll sit tight. All very interesting. I did check the website (perhaps I shouldn’t have done – but I doubt they can prove it was me!)
Hi Al
i just received a fine from the Pisa police for an infringement on 01/06/2009 for entering the restricted traffic zone.Any chance of obtaining the appeal template letter and who/where to send it to in Pisa
many thanks
Hi Bruce,
If the fine is a “Notice of payment before notification” sent via normal post, you can’t yet lodge an appeal.
If the fine is headed “Violation of the Highway Code Notice” and has been sent via registered mail, then it’s the Official Notification which mentions, among other things, that you can appeal to the Prefect of … or the Justice of the Peace of … within 60 days …
So, if this is the Official Notification, copy/paste the appeal template and send your registered letter of appeal with proof of receipt to:
Al Sig. Prefetto di Pisa
Prefettura di Pisa
Piazza Mazzini 7
56100 PISA
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
Read carefully April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment where you’ll find the appeal template.
And (if possible) scroll down through the comments since May.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thanks Al
It was a registered notification,although it was all in italian,so our postman just left it without getting a signature-couldnt read italian i guess
i have sent of the appeal letter in any case,we shall see what transpires
again thanks for your help-and this blog
Hi Al
Thanks Al and Alex for the very useful information on this page.
Today I received via registered post a notice of Infringement of the Italian Highway Code (the date of the notice was 5 August 2010). The offence relates to circulating in a restricted travel zone in Pisa on 11 April 2009. Clearly this exceeds the 360 day rule. I am a UK resident as was travelling in Pisa.
I intend to appeal The Prefect of Pisa (using the template on the post dated April 29 and the address on the 1 September post) on the basis of time limits. However, I am not clear whether the appeal needs to be made in Italian. The Notice expressly says that if you appeal to a Justice of the Peace, the appeal needs to be made in Italian. However, when referring to the option about appealing to the Prefect, there is nothing in the Notice about the language of the appeal. Is this intentional? In other words, does the absence of the express wording relating to the Italian language in respect of appeals to the Prefect, mean that the appeal can be written in English? It is slightly confusing as the Notice makes it clear that appeals to the Justice of Peace must be in Italian but silent in relation to appeals to the Prefect.
Hi Sam,
You gave Alex’s page on “Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy” a thorough read. (y)
Nothing much to add!
Is it intentional that the language of the appeal to the Prefect is not specifically stated in the notice of infringement you received? No, certainly not!
All appeals must be made in Italian!
Furthermore, with regard to appeals to Pisa Authorities, the writing in the letter should lean at an angle of 5.5°!
Do not forget to send the appeal letter in … Italian and within 60 days of receipt of the official notice and to enclose a readable copy of the Notice of Infringement.
Do not be concerned if you never receive a reply from the Prefect.
As you know a Prefect has up to 360 days to give you an answer.
After 360 days without reply the appeal is deemed to be accepted.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi
I’ve just received from the police department in Verona notification thet i entered a restricted area and they are fining me 92 euros, this ‘offence’ occurred in March 2009, 18 months ago, The car was a hire car, hired in Milan, I returned in March, hired a car from the same office and nothing was mentioned about an outstanding police notification.
Has the 18 months exceeded a time scale?
Regards
Patrick
Hi Patrick,
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that the offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days.
This 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic violation.
Even if the time limit has well and truly run out (which is your case), you must dispute your fine and appeal to the PREFECT within 60 days from receipt of the Official Notification.
You should read at least “Section 1 – the Important ‘need to know’ stuff” at the top of this page and my reply to Bruce on September 1, 2010 at 6:57 pm.
Read also April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment where you’ll find an appeal template.
And (if possible) scroll down through the comments since May.
If you have received the Official Notification, copy/paste the appeal template and send your registered letter of appeal with proof of receipt to:
Al Sig. Prefetto di Verona
Prefettura di Verona
Via S.Maria Antica 1
37121 Verona
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
Best regards,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al
Just a quick (but I think pertinent) one: the letter I was sent says I need to appeal to the prefect of Roma, but the address provided is not the prefect’s address – it is the address of the authority that sent me the notification letter. One of the conditions of the appeal is that I write to the prefect at this latter address! So which address should I write to ??
Yours in haste!
Hi Dominic,
An appeal to the Prefect can either be sent:
–> “directly” to the Prefect (in your case via IV Novembre, Roma) or
–> “through” the “competent police station” (the authority that gave you the fine).
If you write at this latter address you can add on the appeal letter:
Al Prefetto di Roma
(Tramite “the name of the authority that sent you the notification letter”)
“Tramite” means “care of”.
The Prefect must come to a decision within 210 days when you present the appeal directly to him or within 180 days if you send the appeal through the police.
(Less 30 days because, in this latter case, the Prefect doesn’t have to send your appeal to the police).
After these 210 (180) days the Prefect has an other 150 days to send you his response.
So 360 days (or 330) in total depending on whom you sent the appeal to.
Do not be concerned if you never receive a reply from the Prefect.
After 360 days (330) without reply the appeal is deemed to be accepted.
I had suggested that you send the appeal directly to the Prefect because I didn’t know which authority had sent you the fine and, as I see it, it doesn’t matter at all whether you’ve committed a traffic offence or not, the notification time limit has run out.
But, as you now know, it doesn’t make any (real) difference. The choice is yours!
You wrote that you received the official notification on the 27th of July.
You have until the 25th of September (60 days) to send the appeal letter.
Don’t wait for the last day to send your registered letter of appeal with proof of receipt and to enclose a readable copy of the official notification.
That’s it! I hope I have been exhaustive!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thanks Al, I will send as instructed and let you know the outcome in a year’s time.
I got an email response from my MEP on this subject, who claimed the following:
“looking back at previous cases from constituents, I have found that the time periods in which fines are applicable, under Italian law give the authorities 360 days in which to issue the fine. But it is important to note this is the period from which they can identify the driver, such as when they receive the relevant information from a car hire company. ”
Lucky we have MEPs to look after our interests, eh? Otherwise who else would?!
Thanks again for all your help and advice.
Dominic
Very well done Alex. Impressive. I just read your whole blog. There are 2 questions which seem to be unanswered (and is the situation I, and perhaps many, am now in).
I received 2 NOTIFICATION OF VIOLATION OF THE HIGHWAY CODE for 2 separate infractions (within few minutes of each other) for driving in Roma “in a limited traffic area without authorization”.
Infractions occured on Oct 11 2008 and the NOTIFICATIONsOF VIOLATION OF THE HIGHWAY CODE are dated January 2010.
I had a rental car (AVIS). I am a Canadian citizen.
When I received them back in January I ignored both as i thought what the heck is this because 1) i do not recall ever drving where they say i did 2) i never received a ticket from any police officers AND 3)the thought of an internet scam certainly cross my mind).
So i ignored both.
Now in July 2010 they sent a Last Reminder letter and now again in September.
My 2 questions are:
1) What happens if you don’t appeal within the 60 days (which I didnt due to 3 reasons above) BUT the NOTIFICATION OF VIOLATION OF THE HIGHWAY CODE was sent to me more than 15 months after the infraction? Will the charges eventually drop on their own as they will realize a) I am not reachable (i moved…i got the Sept 2010 letter only because i know the person who bought my house and they informed me) and b) much more than 360 days had elapsed.
2) I can only assume that with the thousands of such cases in last few years (and the countless blog comments) there are surely many others which have also continuously ignored the “last reminders” and chose not to pay. There has to be a body of evidence on the matter. Question is: What happens if you don’t pay ? Is it just an issue if you do come back to Italy AND get pulled over by the police they may say you now owe this much? Can the rental car company now bill you (they have my current CC on file (not the one from 2008 as it expired) as I am preferred member)? If you refuse to pay, can they prevent you from renting a car again? Or worse, can Canadian authorities have authority to seize assets due to some international agreement.
This is the main question I’m sure many would like answered…What happened to the many who chose to NOT pay!
i am not sure if the answer to my 2nd question varies depending on if 360 days have elapsed between infraction and NOTIFICATION OF VIOLATION OF THE HIGHWAY CODE. (remember i never appealed as i thought it was a joke)…
Thank you Alex!
Hi Sébastien,
You read the whole page?
“Quelle santé! Vous êtes allés vous coucher moins niaiseux hier soir”.
Before answering your comment could you specify the following:
- If, in January 2010, you signed for the two “Notifications of Violation of the Highway Code” which were surely sent by registered mail with proof of receipt.
- Were the July 2010 (day of receipt?) & September 2010 “last reminder letters” sent by registered mail with proof of receipt, and if so, did you sign for the July 2010 letter or did the person who bought your house sign for the September 2010 letter?
Read my answer to Alastair on June 3, 2010 at 12:53 am.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Merci Al (not Alex)!
The July and September 2010 letters were NOT sent via registered mail. Only the January 2010 ones were.
PS: Something i didn’t mention above. AVIS Autonoleggio sent me a 2 notices (one for each infraction) in March 2009 which said they will debit my CC twice 12,50 euros +20% IVA tax for a total of 2×15=3- euros.
Letter said this was for administrative expenses of supplying my personal data to authorities. Thank you AVIS.
Considering no one was injured, no officers were invloved and NO ONE SUFFERED any financial consequences as a result of these 2 “infractions” I fail to understand why they still harrass people 2 years later!
I love Italy (been twice) and visited the whole country (17 out of 20 provinces) and would love to come back in near future BUT i am NOT paying these ridiculous invoices (would be like $600 canadian now) so need to know if A) they are even valid requests (considering the 360 days rule) and fact i never appealed the original NOTICE of Violation and B) irrespective of A) WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DONT PAY !!.
I meant 2×15=30 euros!
Two traffic violations in Rome in October 2008.
You received (and signed for) two official “Notifications of Violation of the Highway Code” sent via registered mail in January 2010.
These two notifications (dated January 2010) sent over 360 days after the date of the driving offences were invalid.
–> BUT, in order to follow the legal procedure, you should have lodged an appeal within 60 days from the date of receipt of the fines.
Therefore you were officially notified in January 2010 and these fines (and all subsequent notifications) are still VALID because you didn’t appeal within 60 days at the time.
EMO can prove that you were officially notified in January 2010.
And it would be pointless appealing against the July 2010 (if you’re still in time) or the September 2010 notifications.
The Italian authorities have five years (Art. 209-Italian Highway Code) to collect fines from the date of the infraction.
–> But this time limit can be interrupted by any official act relevant to the fine!
In your case this 5 year period runs now from January 2010, not from the date (October 2008) of the traffic violations anymore.
(The July & September 2010 “reminder letters” are not official acts).
If you were an Italian resident the next step would be for the Italian authorities to send you a “cartella esattoriale” (collection notice) before January 2015.
Will these charges drop on their own? I don’t know.
It depends on EMO’s “willingness” to keep on pursuing you.
EMO doesn’t have a clue you moved and the 360 day notification time limit doesn’t factor in anymore
Yes! Many others chose not to pay. Some keep on receiving “reminder letters”.
What happens if you don’t pay? (Don’t shout!
)
Presently there’s no effective mutual recognition of financial penalties (including those related to road traffic offences) and cross-border enforcement of traffic offences in the EU.
And to my knowledge there’s no such agreement in force between Italy & Canada.
In my opinion the only thing they can do is “sell” your fines to a debt collection agency in Canada.
Very popular method employed against French traffic offenders nowadays. Such an attempt was carried out by the Milan municipality through a local debt collector in Switzerland last year and… failed.
EMO doesn’t have a “business license” in Canada or any other country.
Even debt collection agencies, duly established in your country of residence, can not collect fines on behalf of Italian municipalities.
Read jd’s August 24, 2010 at 7:45 pm comment.
In Italy, if the car is a rental, Art 196,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Solidarity principle) states that the car rental company is NOT jointly liable with the author of the traffic violation and the holder of the rental agreement of the vehicle for the payment of the fine.
As you have sadly discovered, the rental companies will only bill you an “administration fee” following a request from the Italian authorities to obtain the personal data of the car renter who committed the traffic violation. They must provide the information within 60 days.
By the way Avis can always charge your old 2008 CC (for the admin fee) today (expired or cancelled – they still have the CC details).
That card was valid the day you signed the rental contract in Rome and your credit card company will accept to pay any claims from Avis relating to that period, when you committed the traffic infringements.
Unless the car rental agreement allows them explicitly to charge you also for the payment of the fine, Avis will not pay your fines.
They would have done it in March 2009 when they first got news of your fines.
I don’t see why they would bother to include such a clause: they’re not liable (and I suspect car rental companies lobbied hard for this), it can only be a source of complication with their customers.
Not to mention that it’s also “unfair” to you because, once the fine is paid, you can’t appeal anymore and you might have very good reasons to.
Anyway, Avis is out of the picture by now!
They have chosen to pursue you, as holder of the rental agreement. You lucky ……!
As far as I know there’s no “traffic offender national register” and you won’t be arrested at customs and forced to pay the outstanding fines.
You’re welcomed back in Italy to visit the last three regions.
You “fail to understand why they still harass people 2 years later”? “No one suffered any financial consequences”?
Well, on the one hand, the municipality of Rome hasn’t yet recovered the amount of your fines, on the other, the collection agency EMO is very much interested in their 35% commission.
They’re uttering “show me the money!” (in these “dire times” we’re facing).
Taking all things into consideration, …………
Lastly, I should remind you that I’m neither a lawyer, nor a qualified expert on all the different aspects of this matter.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
I´m another victim of the limited traffic area violation.
I´m really tempted to appeal once the official notification arrives, since it took more than a year since the infraction (403 days to be exactly).
However, I´m still a little worried.
If I appeal using the ’360 day argument’, is it certain that they will cancel the fine? Do you know people that actually did this and won?
Is there any chance I have to pay double the price?
Thanks!
Hi Luiz,
So, up to now, you’ve received only a notice of payment before notification sent via normal mail.
And you’ve read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment?
Nothing is absolutely certain!
Surely you don’t expect me to predict if the Prefect’s underling will apply the law correctly.
Italian residents appeal (and win) frequently to the Prefect when their notification time limit has run out.
This appeal letter I’ve put up for foreign residents dates back to April.
A Prefect has up to 360 days to give you his answer.
Read August 3, 2010 at 10:19 pm & August 21, 2010 at 9:58 pm comments.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thank you very much for taking the time Al…Your english is very good by the way. Are you Italian? You write better than 99.7% of North Americans.
PS: I paid the 30 euros to AVIS back in March 2009 (didn’t mean to imply i didn’t…if i did indeed imply).
You mentioned “there’s no traffic offender national register in Italy” … does that mean that when I come to Italy and (if) I get pulled over by a police officer (for speeding for example) he has no way of knowing if i have an outstanding unpaid invoice with the city of Roma?
Thank you very much for taking the time Al…Your english is very good by the way. Are you Italian? You write better than 99.7% of North Americans.
You mentioned “there’s no traffic offender national register in Italy” … does that mean that when I come to Italy and (if) I get pulled over by a police officer (for speeding for example) he has no way of knowing if i have an outstanding unpaid invoice with the city of Roma?
PS: I paid the 30 euros to AVIS back in March 2009 (didn’t mean to imply i didn’t…if i did indeed imply).
PS2: Blog wouldn’t let me reply to original thread therefore this new thread …(not sure why)
Thanks for complimenting me on my English.
99.7%? Only a measly 99.7%? I was aiming higher than that!
(To be honest I “get by” with a little help from the Web)
Yes! Italian and Swiss.
With regard to Avis’s admin fee, I didn’t mean to imply… uuuh… anything… if I did indeed imply you hadn’t paid the 30€. I’ve reread that specific paragraph and I can understand why you thought……..
I was merely saying that Avis doesn’t need your current CC details to bill you. I mentioned the admin fee (in brackets) because they can’t charge you for the fines.
A few traffic offenders have successfully reclaimed the car rental admin fee. In your case the fines ended up to be invalid (until you didn’t appeal), thus the associated admin fee must therefore be equally invalid and be paid by the Italian Authorities/collection agencies (in an ideal world).
I wrote: “As far as I know there’s no traffic offender national register”.
The police in the province of Como have a “local” register. Do other cities, provinces have a traffic offender local register?
To be safe I wouldn’t drive in Rome (and even then!), but in other parts of Italy the risks are negligible, if not nonexistent. I’d say nonexistent.
For traffic offenders pulled over (on the spot) – Art.207.
(Example: Art. 142,8-Italian Highway Code, speeding by more than 10km/h up to 40km/h over the limit – Fine: between 155 & 624€)
- An Italian resident may pay the minimum amount (155€) (or appeal) within 60 days,
- If you, (Canadian resident with Canadian driving license), get pulled over driving a friend’s car or a rented car (with Italian license plates):
–> You (have to) pay the minimum amount on the spot, and be done with it, but no appeal possible anymore.
–> You (have to) pay the minimum amount on the spot but you must specify “as security/guarantee” and an appeal is still possible.
–> If you don’t pay the vehicle is impounded (and stored) at your expense until…….. you cough the money up.
It’s quite complicated. Many combinations depending on the driver’s driving license and the car’s license plate. Italian, UE + EEA (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway) or other.
Al (not Alex)
Again, I would just like to say what a great informative blog!
I have received two notices for entering a restricted zone from a trip in July 2009.
The first letter was for an infringement of circulating in a limited traffic zone in Florence. The letter came whilst we were on our honeymoon in Italy during June 2010. Stupidly I did not keep the envelope, but obviously I did not sign for it as I was not in the country. I ignored the letter as it could quite easily have been lost in the post and there was no proof that I had received it and decided to see what followed.
Two days ago I received a letter that had the yellow card mentioned in an earlier post with a red stamp on the front saying signature required – my postman must have missed this meaning I have not signed for it. This one at first I thought was following on from the first letter but it is actually from the same trip but this time for an infringement for circulating in a limited traffic zone in Pisa.
Now I just want to double check, both of these fines are now over the 360 day limit you have mentioned and as of yet I have had no notice that I have signed for meaning there is no proof I have received either. So does that mean I sit tight and until I sign for a letter I do nothing? And then if I do sign for one I then fill out the letter of appeal stating that they have gone over the 360 day notification period?
I am slightly worried as I have been back to Florence twice since the date of the original fine, as I got married there this year. We had to go into Florence on several occasions to sort out the legal requirements and stupidly I was not aware of the Limited traffic zone until after the first letter came through – so there could be a few more fines to come through!
Thanks in advance.
Hi Wendy,
1) Traffic violation in Florence in July 2009.
–> In June 2010 you probably received an unofficial notice, a “Notice of payment before notification” sent via normal post by the collection agency EMO.
The official notice, sent via registered mail, is headed “Notification of Violation of the Highway Code” and is the only one which mentions that you can appeal to the Prefect of Firenze or the Justice of the Peace of Firenze within 60 days.
Anyway, as you said, you didn’t sign for anything!
Presumably you’ll receive in a few weeks the official registered notice which will be over the 360 day limit. You then dispute your fine and appeal to the Prefect of Florence within 60 days.
2) Traffic violation in Pisa in July 2009.
–> In October 2010 you received the official registered notice from S.E.Pi. S.p.A. (Società Entrate Pisa S.p.A.
But you haven’t signed for it, SEPI has no proof you’ve received it.
Either you wait for a second official notice or you send the registered letter of appeal (with proof of receipt) anyway (like Bruce did September 15, 2010 at 11:41 am) within 60 days.
I would probably send it and be rid of further hassles with this Pisa fine.
But the choice is yours, naturally.
Al Prefetto di Pisa
Prefettura di Pisa
Piazza Mazzini 7
56100 PISA
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
Read carefully April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment where you’ll find the appeal template.
And, even if you seem to have already done so, scroll down through the comments since May.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Wendy
if you want piece of mind,i would send the letter of appeal template Al refers to.I took the 5 mins it takes to fill it out and send it off in the mail.It cost me $15 australian dollars to register it and request notice of receipt,which i received this week via return post.
as far as i am concerned,thats the end of it, i certainly sleep better now LOL
Hey Al/Whomever Else,
I posted on your blog back on June 6, 2010, at 5:51AM. I’ve gotten MORE letters from the Municipality of Rome today.
Quick recap of my situation….
I traveled to Italy in March 2009. While in Rome, I rented a vespa for 2 days. Unknowingly, I violated 4 traffic laws, all of which I had NO idea I was in violation.
All 4 violations took place on March 1, 2009, as listed on the “Last Reminder” notice I received today.
On the notices I received today it reads the following…..
“Dear Sir,
With this communication we would like to remind you that on the 2010/06/03. (June, 3, 2010) we sent you the notification of a fine issued by the Council of Cumune Di Roma Carpo Di P.M. U.O. Contravvenzioni for a total of 103.50 (Euro) to be paid within 60 days from the date of the receipt. The penalty for non payment within the time limit is double of the sum as provided for by article 202 of the Italian Highway Code. There is also the opportunity to appeal against the fine as indicated in the above-mentioned notification.
However, we invite you to make the payment within the stated deadline, avoiding further costs and legal action. We remind you that the payment can be made as follows……………”
Then they list my options to pay by either credit card or wire transfer. It continues…
“We inform you that if you do not react to our request for payment, legal proceedings will take place, in accordance with international agreements in force with your country regarding ‘notification abroad of administrative sanctions”. All the expenses will be charged to your account as provided for by the Art. 201 of the Italian Highway Code.”
All 4 “Last Reminder” notices are dated 10/15/2010.
If you go back to my original post, I stated that I DO NOT want to pay these fines as I am not a citizen of Italy, nor do I plan on returning anytime soon (within the next 5-8 years).
Al, in your response to me, you said that they have 360 days to notify me of the fine? Well, on all 4 of these “Last Reminder” letters I received today, they state that the infractions took place on March 1, 2009 AND that they sent me my first notifications of the fines on June 3, 2010.
So that is clearly passed the 360 day deadline. How can I go about this so that I do not have to pay any fines and I can just get rid of this issue already?!?!
To be honest, I am refusing to pay UNLESS they can issue some kind of international warrant for my arrest.
Al (or others) please advise. I can also send a copy of these notifications to you if it would help. They provide me with online access to their website using a username and password.
Thanks for your help!
-Brandon
Hi Brandon,
This is Al, not Alex.
You posted on Alex’s blog on June 3, 2010 at 5:51 am and I answered on June 3, 2010 at 2:54 pm.
The question is NOT whether you were notified in time………
We have already established that:
- The four traffic violations took place in March 2009,
- The official notifications were probably (dated) sent from Italy at the end of May 2010.
You received (signed for) them on June 3, 2010.
–> March 2009 –> May 2010 ==> The 360 day notification time limit has run out.
………. BUT why didn’t you lodge an appeal ???
This issue would have been resolved by now!
In my response, I had written that, if you wanted to follow the legal procedure, you HAD to appeal in Italian to the Prefect of Rome within 60 DAYS from the date of receipt of the official notifications. Even if the 360 day time limit had well and truly run out!
I had also added that an appeal template (with all the necessary instructions) is included in my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Since more than 60 days have passed (since you were officially notified on June 3, 2010) it would be useless now to present an appeal.
No need to send a copy of the notifications, I know what’s written on them.
There won’t be any international warrant for your arrest!
lol
For an unpaid traffic fine?
What can happen is that your unpaid fines are “sold” to a debt collection agency in the States.
But, as far as I know, even such US based agencies, can’t enforce the payment of Italian traffic fines.
Read jd’s comment on August 24, 2010 at 7:45 pm.
So, if you’re not “intimidated” by repeated notifications (“Last Reminder” notices), I would keep on not paying those fines, especially considering the fact that they were invalid since the beginning. Even though you should have appealed!!!
Ultimately it’s your decision naturally and I should remind you that I’m not a lawyer.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thankyou for this detailed website. It is reassuring to see strong support against what I view to be Municipale ‘fining’ its way out of a recession.
At the risk of Al/Alex repeating yourself, I thought I could get some casual guidance.
During a trip to Italy in mid 2009, I was stung with three Florence ‘Limited Traffic Area’ fines. All are just minutes apart (must have been out of peek hour I guess). I received the unofficial ‘notice of payment before the notification’ in December 2009 and the official letter in April 2010 (within the 360 days). By this stage I had relocated house and the new occupant advised me they rejected these letters (I gave them a heads up for reasons I will outline below).
Just the other week I received three ‘Last Reminders’ (forwarded to me by the occupants of my former residence) drawing reference to the April formal notifications they sent me. The fines are now valued at 109.65 Euro each (sorry, we don’t have the euro symbol on our keyboards here).
In December, I raised this with the Italian consulate here in my country (I wont name my country to not get this person in trouble) who said he saw too many of these fines and ‘suggested’ not to pay and to ignore the official notifications. EMO will then procure the monies due from the car hire company. I am nervous about this suggestion as I could potentially see the car hire company coming after me, even though my travel credit card was cancelled the day I arrived back from my trip.
From your understanding am I able to appeal on the fact that they cannot prove I received the Official notices within 360 days? My intended plan is to appeal based on the only letter I will admit receiving, and that is the ‘last reminder’ which I received post the 360 days.
Cheers
Charlie.
Hi Charlie,
Don’t be nervous !
The car hire company will NOT pay for your fines!
–> In Italy, if the car is a rental, Art 196,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Solidarity principle) states that the car rental company is NOT jointly liable with the author of the traffic violation and the holder of the rental agreement of the vehicle for the payment of the fine.
The car hire company has one legal obligation and that is to provide the personal data of the car renter within 60 days, otherwise they could end up paying for the fine.
Read my answer to Sebastien on September 24, 2010 at 6:55 pm.
In my view the “last reminder” letter sent to traffic offenders:
- By normal post,
- Over 60 days (time limit to pay or appeal) after they’ve received the formal notice, whether they’ve signed for it or not,
–> is not an official notification: hence you can’t appeal based on a “last reminder” letter.
Such an appeal wouldn’t be taken into consideration. (As if you had never appealed)
In that paragraph where they “draw reference to the April formal notifications” something like this is mentioned:
–> “Bloody hell! You were supposed (my interpretation of course) to pay within 60 days […] or submit an appeal in the manner specified in the aforesaid (official) notification.”
(I don’t have the English version of the letter)
If they reply, they could very well say:
- That you were notified in April, within the 360 days. (Even though they can’t prove that you’ve received the official notifications).
- And that it’s now too late to appeal: more than 60 days have passed since April.
I see the “last reminder” as a “nice” way to “invite” the traffic offender to pay the same amount as on the formal notification, although he’s now liable for roughly double that amount because he didn’t pay within 60 days.
Up to now they have no knowledge that you’ve received anything.
I would simply… keep on ignoring these repeated notifications.
Unless you were stung so badly that a compelling urge to contribute (by paying these ZTL fines, shamelessly duplicated for violations just a few minutes apart) to the municipality of Florence “fining its way out of recession” crept over you?
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thanks for the clarification Al.
Although I am tempted to pay these fines as a ‘donation’ to the beautiful city of Florence, based on principle I have been stung three times for the same offence. That is below the belt…
Further it is a very expensive donation….
Are you aware of EMO engaging debt collectors to procure monies due? I live well outside of the EU zone, I’m not sure how serious they get!
I find this whole topic quite entertaining, especially by the fact the Italian Consulate representative I net with was visibly emotional when explaining to me how unjust these fines were and they were collecting these fines to lodge a formal complaint to the Italian Government. Not sure how far he will get though, I imagine EMO is the cash cow for the City of Florence. Have they paved the streets with gold yet?
Again, thanks for your generous help.
Yes, I’m aware of EMO engaging debt collectors.
It’s a popular method employed against French traffic offenders nowadays.
(Most of them aren’t so easily intimidated)
Such an attempt was also carried out by the Milan municipality through a local debt collector in Switzerland last year and… failed.
Debt collection agencies, duly established in your country of residence, can not collect fines on behalf of Italian municipalities. (The Italian State must initiate legal proceedings, …)
As I said, unless you want to donate……….
Until recently Florence had the record number of fines per capita in Europe.
But the streets aren’t paved with gold yet, which is a shame really, and the local authorities are facing a “rebellion” over a questionable radar machine (28000 fines over a three-month period for a single fixed radar) from outraged local citizens.
Relations are strained between the mayor and the municipal police chief.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Guys,
I have received the infamous “circulating in an unauthorised zone ” fine from Pisa today 6th November 2010. The date of the offence was 18th July 2009. From the comments and advice I have read on this site I feel the authorities have “run out of time” but I’m not sure. Anyone know for sure if 16 months is “pushing it”
Hi David,
Sure ! 16 months is “pushing it”!
I believe you‘ve received the official (sent via registered mail) notice from S.E.Pi. S.p.A. (Società Entrate Pisa S.p.A).
From what I’ve seen, S.E.Pi Pisa doesn’t seem to be sending (unlike EMO) unofficial notices.
Was there a yellow detachable card on the rear of the envelope?
Did you sign for the letter?
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
Read September 1, 2010 at 6:57 pm comment.
I would send an appeal letter to the Prefect of Pisa.
Please read all (or at least scroll down through) the comments since May 2010 before eventually replying.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
We first received a charge from Europcar in December 2009 and reluctantly paid it. We thought that payment was for the fines… Well, SURPRISE, we got today the fines, each for 119 Euros. Almost fainted… The date on the yellow sticker on the back is 21-10-2010. So it is almost 15 months or over 360 days.
We received the “Infringements of Italian Highway Code” notice from S.E.P.I.
1. I understand that the best thing is to send the letter you kindly wrote in Italian to the Perfect.
2. Since I have two fines, should I send them in one envelope or two?
3. The procedure that you recommend is
a. To send your written Italian letter
b. Attach a copy of the “Infringements of Italian Highway Code” notice from S.E.P.I.
c. Attach a copy of the yellow sticker from the back of the envelope that shows the date it
was sent
d. Mail it registered with returned signed receipt to:
Al Sig. Prefetto di Pisa
Prefettura di Pisa
Piazza Mazzini 7
56100 PISA
Thanks again for all the wonderful work here. If people will keep sending the letters, they might stop this terrible practice or become more efficient in sending them out
Any further information on the matter will be greatly appreciated.
David,
1. Yes.
2. Send one letter of appeal for the two fines. Same grounds: over 360 days, same town (Prefect): Pisa.
(See appeal template)
Modifications (plural for 2 tickets!) in caps:
“Oggetto: ricorso contro multE notificatE oltre 360 giorni daI fattI.”
“premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE, ha ricevuto I verbalI di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. N° 1ST FINE, N° 2ND FINE, fa notare che lE notificHE deGLI stessI SONO avvenutE oltre 360 giorni daI fattI, …….”
“Chiede che I provvedimentI vengaNO annullatI”
“Allega: fotocopiE deI verbalI notificatI”
3a) Yes. If you wish to dispute your fines and follow the legal procedure.
3b) Yes. A readable copy of the two fines.
3c) If you wish. In that case you add under: “Allega”: fotocopia dell’avviso di ricevimento. Enclosed: copy of proof of receipt (the yellow sticker).
But it’s not necessary. The dates on your two fines are already well over the 360 day notification time limit.
3d) Yes.
Al (not Alex)
Al, you are amazing and thanks so much for the help!
For future readers who will need to send a letter for multiple fines, I am attaching the letter with the adjustments you kindly made (so people will save time, it took me some time to do it).
Al Prefetto di ___
Raccomandata A.R.
Oggetto: ricorso contro multe notificate oltre 360 giorni dal fattl.
Il/la sottoscritto/a _______, residente in _______, titolare del contratto di noleggio della vettura targa,
premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE, ha ricevuto l verball di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. N° 1ST FINE, N° 2ND FINE, fa notare che le notifiche degli stessl sono avvenute oltre 360 giorni dal fattl, estinguendo quindi l’obbligo di pagamento.
Come stabilito dall’art. 201, comma 1 del Codice della strada, nel caso di residenti all’estero, il verbale deve essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Per quanto sopra
Chiede che l provvedimentl vengano annullatl.
Allega: fotocopie del verball notificatl, fotocopia dell’avviso di ricevimento.
Date…………… Signature (readable)
Please correct me if I made an error above.
Also, I thought the yellow stickers are needed since they are the real proof that the fines were sent to me over 360 days later.
Thanks again, your service is so appreciated and I am going to post a link to this in some other sites for people who plan on traveling to Italy so they will be careful. They will also have a chance to enjoy Alex blog.
David,
Thanks! It’s always nice to be thanked!
Just one slight error. You left the “i” in caps.
–> “… 360 giorni dai fatti …, … ricevuto i verbali …, … notifiche degli stessi …, … dai fatti …, … Chiede che i provvedimenti vengano annullati, Allega: fotocopie dei verbali notificati.”
Also don’t forget the car’s license plate: “…della vettura targa_______,”
Well, the date on the letter (fine) is proof enough.
This date already shows that you are being notified over 360 days later.
The (sending) date on the yellow sticker is important when this date is outside the 360 day time limit AND (BUT) the date on the fine is inside the limit.
It can take them 7-14 days to post the fine(s).
That’s why one must always keep the envelope (yellow sticker) for the postmark.
But never mind! It can’t do any harm to send also a copy of the yellow sticker.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
You are right, I didn’t see the date on the letter (they wrote and posted it the same day)! So I guess I will not send the yellow stickers.
Sorry for my mistakes, I just couldn’t figure the l from the i
I am attaching the letter for future generations :
BTW, mine happened on the same date 2 hours apart (in and out of Pisa) so I just put the same date twice under dates. For the fine numbers, I put the whole long fine number which ended with the year 2009
Hope it is now clear of mistakes:
Al Prefetto di ____
Raccomandata A.R.
Oggetto: ricorso contro multe notificate oltre 360 giorni dai fatti.
Il/la sottoscritto/a ___, residente in ______, titolare del contratto di noleggio della vettura targa _____,
premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE, ha ricevuto i verbali di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. N° 1ST FINE, N° 2ND FINE, fa notare che le notifiche degli stessi sono avvenute oltre 360 giorni dai fatti, estinguendo quindi l’obbligo di pagamento.
Come stabilito dall’art. 201, comma 1 del Codice della strada, nel caso di residenti all’estero, il verbale deve essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Per quanto sopra
Chiede che i provvedimenti vengano annullati.
Allega: fotocopie dei verbali notificati.
Date…………… Signature (readable)
The letter is fine!
Just add the hour with the date(s).
Fine numbers: perfect!
BTW, “Il sottoscritto___” for a man, “La sottoscritta___” for a woman.
I think we have covered everything and … more.
David,
Correction !
The date(s) mentioned on the appeal letter is/are the date(s) you received the fine(s) at home, the date(s) you signed for the registered mail.
So, I believe, in your case, just one date: November 8th (or is it 6th), 2010.
Al (not Alex)
Are you referring to “premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE”? and if so, should it be “premesso che in data 11-8-2010″?
I did type the day we were in Pisa… (good I didn’t send yet…)
Thanks
Yes, David!
Read the translation on the appeal template (April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment).
In your case you received the (two) fines (letters of infraction) n.(umber) “1”, n. “2” on the same day: 8/11/2010.
In Italy the date format is (dd/mm/yyyy).
–> “premesso che in data 8/11/2010, ha ricevuto i verbali…″
You can also write “in data 8 Novembre 2010”.
Al (not Alex)
I hope it posts as a reply(it sends me to the bottom of the page when I hit reply).
Thanks Al. I understand the problem was just the date (day/month/year).
Corrected! and ready to go!
Hello Al, Alex and all fellow upset drivers who are considering never returning to Italy again!!
Great site by the way and the only one with any real help on the issue of these law stretching fines.
I first heard about my little altercation in October 2009 when I received a receipt from my hire car firm, listing a Pisa restricted zone traffic violation in early June 2009 as the reason for a £17 charge. I didn’t call to have it reversed as I had more important things to do at the time. I kept hold of the receipt for about 3 months though, based on how the UK police always jump on your behind within 4 weeks of offending, after which time I thought that should be it and I wouldn’t hear anything more.
In mid October 2010, I received the full monty fine of €119 on my doormat, yellow slip still attached and no signature requested by the postman. So officially I haven’t received anything as far as I’m concerned.
So because I’ve not officially acknowledged the letter, I could do with some other advice on which is the most sensible route to take:
1. Refuse the letter’s existence – I know they’ll be back with another letter which I’ll have to sign for at some point, so should I just sit it out and let the clock keep ticking until the previously mentioned 549 day time limit is definitely up and the appeal has total grounds of success?
2. Appeal now – the time differential of offence notification is 491 days from the offence to the time I received the letter and 479 days from the offence to when the letter was sent. The only proof I have of the car hire firm’s identification of me is the date of the credit card payment. Looking at that, the Pisa authorities sent the letter 353 days after the supposed identification date by the car hire firm. I, however received the letter 370 days after the supposed identification date. I know that 360 days for foreigners from the offence date is mentioned here as what should be the law translation, but I’m also gathering that the authorities are still harping on about that it’s from the date of identification of the driver when the 360 day rule comes in. So, as you might gather, I’m rather confused. Does that mean I can successfully appeal? Has anyone successfully appealed using the translated letters that were kindly supplied on the site?
3. Just pay it and leave a note saying I’m never coming back to the country because of this tourist fleecing town (which is a pity because I got married in Sorrento in 2003 and toured the whole country).
So yes, I’m confused and cheesed off with Italy (all because of little Pisa) and I’m telling everyone I know about what they’ve done, and them using the excuse of “this is how we do it, so get used to it”. I bet Traffic violations in Jamaica are enforced faster than this (no offence to our Jamaican friends, but the average cool as a cucumber Jamaican is first to say that in their land there are 3 speeds: slow, stop and reverse).
I read somewhere that the Florentine council were boasting that this rouse brings in €25 million a year for them alone. I wonder how much that weighs up against revenue for lost tourism and exportation?
Not good enough Italy and pull your legal socks up, before this whole thing blows up in your face and everyone boycotts not just tourism, but Italian products too.
Please help and thank you for anything!!
Jim
Jim, I see no reason why you should not appeal to the Perfect and get it canceled.
Hi Jim,
It seems you’ve read quite a lot about these Italian fines.
I would have hoped that, after reading this “great site”( BTW, thanks!), you wouldn’t be “rather confused” anymore.
- 549??? There’s no 549 day time limit!
- EMO, SEPI Pisa purposely mislead foreign tourists about the 360 day notification time limit! And, unfortunately, well-meaning people spread this despicable lie on the web.
- For notification purposes the relevant date is the letter (fine) sending date.
–> Early June 2009 –> ZTL traffic violation in Pisa.
–> Around October 2009 –> You were officially “identified” the day the Pisa authorities received your contact details from the car rental company.
The only way to know would be to call or send an email to SEPI asking them on which date you were identified.
If they bother to reply to your email? Or, if the person you speak to on the phone, understands English?
–> Early October 2010 –> Your fine was sent from Pisa.
There’s a (slim) possibility that the fine was sent more than 360 days after your “identification”.
In that case, even according to their (absolutely wrong) definition, your fine is invalid.
If so, SEPI should cancel the fine. Get it in writing! No need to present a formal appeal.
(360 days is NOT 365 days/one year)
Yes, you could “refuse the letter’s existence”. SEPI has no proof that you ever received it.
Will they be back with another registered letter? Perhaps?
EMO (for Florence, Rome,… fines) sends a “last reminder” letter or “works something out” with a local debt collection agency.
There are no definite rules about this.
It probably depends on the amount of the fine(s), the offender’s country of residence, their willingness to pursue the matter,…
What I would do is take the trouble to send the registered letter of appeal (with proof of receipt) anyway! 479 days from the offence!!!
You’ll be rid of eventual further hassles with this Pisa fine.
Should you decide to do so, remember that you have 60 days (from mid October 2010) to appeal to the Prefect of Pisa.
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
When the appeal is successful Prefects don’t bother to reply.
After 360 days without reply the appeal is deemed to be accepted. (Art. 204,1-bis – Prefect’s measures – Italian Highway Code)
“Just pay it and leave a note…” ? I do like the British sense of humour!
Read carefully April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (appeal template).
Read October 8, 2010 at 7:29 pm, August 3, 2010 at 10:19 pm comments.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thanks Al & David
I was a little confused because I was stupidly skipping through the wealth of info on here!! My other excuse is that I’m a designer, so I’m used to looking at pretty pictures rather than words.
Anyway, I’ve sent the letter (so I can say I’ve followed the rules), but I’m shutting down my credit card just in case. Many thanks for you taking the time to digest my temperamental ramblings!
I think I’ll be off to Spain next…
Jim
I have just noticed a charge of €36 on my credit card from Hertz dated 12/11/10 they have emailed me back today saying that is if for a traffic offence (no details of the offence given) during my stay in Italy, this €36 covers their administration fee and the fine should be in the post from the authorities. After getting billed €107 extra for half a tank of petrol already now this from Hertz it is very annoying. My stay in Italy was 4/8/10 – 16/8/10 do I have any claim back on the €36 as to the amount of time it has taken to inform me of the extra charge or the fact that I have no notification from the Italian authorities of a fine yet.
Or do I sit and wait hoping the fine does not arrive till this time next year.
Thanks for any replies
Greg,
August –> Traffic offence.
November –> Hertz receives the fine (with all the details of the offence) from the Italian police.
The car hire company has a legal obligation to give the hirer’s personal data to the police.
When you signed Hertz hire contract you agreed to pay for this admin charge.
The rental Terms & Conditions allow that when you commit a traffic offence.
If you wish you can demand that Hertz justifies this extra charge by emailing you a scan of the fine.
The 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the offence.
Hence, the official notification must be “sent” (by registered mail) before roughly early August 2011.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Al (not Alex)
Thanks for your reply
What a fabulous website, all round – thank you for being here & all the advice and help you offer to us unfortunate folk; we appreciate you.
Sadly, like others, I came across Blog from Italy for all the wrong reasons – namely a violation in Florence that I have now received my official ‘Violation of the Highway Code’ for.
Trying to be brief – my offence occurred on the 18th September 2009, the police retrieved my details from Avis on the 24th October 2009. The notification was sent from Italy on the 14th October 2010 but I did not receive it until the 26th October 2010.
Clearly the deadlines for the 360 days to be notified are very tight for me. EMO have put it in writing to me that the 360 day rule runs from the date of the police retrieving my details. So, my question is:
If I assume EMO are correct, would the 360 days run to the day the notification was posted from Italy or when I received and signed for it here in the UK?
There is a twelve day difference and this could make the difference to wether I appeal or not.
All advice is gratefully received, and thank you all again.
MCAC,
If I have understood you correctly, you’ve had an exchange of emails with EMO.
And, in their reply, they told you that you had been officially “identified” on the 24th October 2009.
Your “identification date” is the day the Florence police received your contact details from Avis. Only EMO could have given you the precise date.
If things went this way, then less than 360 days have passed between the 24th October 2009 and the 14th October 2010.
Always, always, the sending date for notification purposes!
Is the 14th October 2010 the date on the notification (fine) or the date on the time stamp on the envelope/yellow detachable card?
ANYWAY! What is important is not to swallow the bait!
Do not take everything EMO says at face value!
–> The 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the offence!
Please read:
- “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page,
- Comments on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included), August 3, 2010 at 10:19 pm, September 10, 2010 at 8:42 pm and November 17, 2010 at 4:36 pm.
And (if possible) scroll down through the comments since May.
The 360 day time limit has clearly (almost 13 months) run out and I would definitely send a letter of appeal to the Prefect of Florence.
Copy/paste the appeal template and send your registered letter with proof of receipt to:
Al Prefetto di Firenze
Prefettura di Firenze
Ufficio Ricorsi per Violazioni al Codice della Strada (Appeals office for violations of the Highway Code)
Via Antonio Giacomini 8
50132 Firenze
Remember that you have 60 days (from 26th October 2010) to appeal to the Prefect.
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
thanks for your swift and informative response. I will proceed with copying the letter template and send it registered post.
Before I do, I have one question.
On the (English version) template it says:
‘Whereas on date…………, has received the official notification’
Do I put the date the letter was sent from Italy or the date I signed for it at the door in the UK?
Sorry to be a pain; I just want to get this right…and make it go away
Again, thank you for all the time you and Alex are spending on this for people like me. I don’t know what I would have done had it not been for this site.
Hi MCAC,
Thanks! Glad you appreciate the information in this blog!
English isn’t my mother tongue but I thought …
–> The date you (received it is the date you) signed for it at the door in the UK!
In Italy the date format is (dd/mm/yyyy).
–> “premesso che in data 26/10/2010, ha ricevuto il verbale …″
You can also write “in data 26 Ottobre 2010”.
The Prefect’s underling will then check the date on the notification (the date the fine was written) and notice that this date (if different from the sending date) is already outside the 360 day time limit.
It can take them 7-14 days to post the fine.
Do not confuse the “notification/fine number” with “EMO’s file number”.
Write “Al Prefetto di Firenze … + full address …” also on the appeal letter.
BTW, “Il sottoscritto___” for a man, “La sottoscritta___” for a woman.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
I was traveling in Rome in December and January of last year and just received two letters from EMO asking for 99 Euros each. the violation was listed as:
ART. 7 c. 9/c. 14 was driving in a limited traffic area without authorization.
I can find no explanation of this and have no recollection of commiting such a violation. Both infractionswere in the area of the Coloseum. Can you help?
David,
You probably entered the “Centro Storico” ZTL (Zona Traffico Limitato / Restricted Traffic Zone).
http://www.romealive.com/romes_ztl_limited_traffic_z.html
http://italychronicles.com/how-to-avoid-fines-in-italy/
If you were staying in a hotel (within this ZTL), you can try and contact the hotel to find out if your two fines can be cancelled.
Read “Section 1 – the Important ‘need to know’ stuff” at the top of this page.
You’ve received two “Notice of payment before notification” (unofficial notice) sent via normal post by the collection agency EMO.
The 360 day notification time limit will be up shortly. I would wait to see if the official registered fines are sent in time.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
Read August 27, 2010 at 3:13 pm comment and scroll down through the comments since May.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
First of all, kudos on running such a helpful blog – you seem to have helped a lot of people!
I too have received a 119 EUR fine for entering a restricted traffic zone without authorization. Your info on the Italian Highway Code is most helpful — do you know where it can be found online? Apparently the Municipality of Pisa isn’t aware of Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code, since they sent me a letter in November 2010 for an infraction that supposedly happened in October 2009, so more than 360 days later. From what I read here, this means the fine is invalid. I therefore intend to use your template from April 29 to appeal the fine. Although they tell me I can appeal, they conveniently forget to give me the contact details of the Prefect of Pisa.
Can you help?
Thanks!
James
Hi James,
SEPI Pisa is very well aware of Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code but conveniently misreads it as being 360 days “from the date of receipt of your contact details sent by the car rental company”.
Which means that there’s absolutely no time limit to find out who hired the car? They can decide to identify the offender whenever it suits them!
Article 201,1 (Violations Notification) states very clearly that the 360 day notification time limit runs from the day of the offence.
Read August 3, 2010 at 10:19 pm and August 21, 2010 at 9:58 pm comments.
All the info is in Italian. You can find the Italian Highway Code at: http://www.altalex.com/index.php?idnot=34127
Send your registered letter of appeal with proof of receipt to:
Al Prefetto di Pisa
Prefettura di Pisa
Piazza Mazzini 7
56100 PISA
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
Read November 20, 2010 at 9:38 pm comment.
Best,
Al (not Alex who runs BlogfromItaly.com)
One more to add to the file ! PISA COMUNE Offence dated 22-09-2009. “AR” letter received in the UK 06-12-2010. Yellow Card, still attached to the envelope, shows a Date of 29-11-2010
Have emailed esteroinfo@sepi-pisa.it who tell me the (seemingly) usual “360 days from ident” and an appeal MUST BE MADE IN THE ITALIAN LANGUAGE. Surely one can appeal in ones` own language ?
Blog is a massive help to the un-initiated !
Jim,
Well, no ! You must appeal in Italian.
“In one’s own language”? Why not appeal in Swahili?
As you well know, they all speak the Swahili language in Italy!
22/09/2009 –> 29/11/2010 –> > 360 days!
The date on the letter (fine) is probably also 29/11, at any rate, well over the 360 day notification time limit.
Even though you still have the detachable yellow (A.R.) card (you have not signed for the registered fine), I would send the registered letter of appeal to the Prefect of Pisa.
Considering also the fact that you had an exchange of mails with Sepi.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
Read October 8, 2010 at 7:29 pm comment.
Scroll down through the comments since May.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Al, thanks for the reply. I take the point about Swahili !! What about Bantu ?
Is Russian OK ? (No reply necessary). I`ll pay the damm fine and cross Italy off my holiday list .
Regards JimM.
Hi Al
I rented a car in Milan for a couple of days in September 2009 with Herz. In January I check my credit card statement and see Herz had taken some 35 Euros off my card, when I called them and asked they say it was because administration fees for passing my details onto local Police.
In March i received a letter from Nivi Credit Srl, saying that on the 16/09/09 I was driving my rented car in a bus lane in Milan and asking me to pay some € 100.00. There was no picture or proof of the offence, just date and time of the alleged offence, since it was not a recorded delivery letter I just threw it in the bin.
Today, i received another letter from the same company, dated 25/11/10, I believe they sent it by recorded post because there is some kind of tag at the back which has been detached and on the envelope it says “signature required Royal Mail” although this has been crossed out , however I didn’t sign anything, I jsut found it today in my letter box when I got back.
Anyway, even if this was the actual notification, I believe the 360 day rule should apply here so I was thinking in appealing to the Milan prefect. Do you know of anyone who has been successful in appealing?
Thanks
Emanuele
Hi Emanuele,
It is the actual notification, headed “Violation of the Highway Code Notice”.
And it mentions that you can appeal to the Prefect of … or the Judge of the Peace of … within 60 days …
Your postman should have asked you to sign for it or left a note asking you to pick it up at the post office.
The 360 day rule does apply: 16/09/2009 –> 25/11/2010 –> > 360 days!
Even though you have not signed for the registered fine, I would send the registered letter of appeal.
Al Prefetto di Milano
Prefettura di Milano
Ufficio Ricorsi per Violazioni al Codice della Strada (Appeals office for violations of the Highway Code)
Corso Monforte 27
20122 MILANO
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification.
When the appeal is successful Prefects don’t bother to reply.
After 360 days without reply the appeal is deemed to be accepted. (Art. 204,1-bis – Prefect’s measures – Italian Highway Code)
Best,
Al (not Alex)
I too,was caught by the dreaded Italian traffic cameras, on our fifteenth trip to Europe from the US.
I have detected a real and growing problem with both the Italian authorities and specifically Hertz
in their dealings with American tourists.
After returning a car in Rome, we were later billed for a tank of gas,I always return them with a full tank, probably because the check in clerk was too busy chatting on the phone to accept the keys. I contested it with my Credit card co. (I kept the receipt for the fill up) and the charge was denied.
Hertz also tried to charge me for “damage to another rental car in Europe(I had a sneaking suspicion that something was up, when the clerk told me on checking the car out that it was brand new “and any damage will be charged to your card”. I took photos of the car when I returned it.
3 mos after returning to the US, we were informed that we had done E350 damge to the car.
Again presented the photos to my credit card co, and they denied Hertz’s claim.
In short, Not only will I not be returning to Italy, I will be telling anyone who listens ,about the unethical and possibly illegal practices now being foisted upon unsuspecting tourists
For those of you who still want to visit Italy ,my advice would be ,visit smaller cities(You really get more out your visit) and if you rent from Hertz, save your documentation, and take pictures of your car upon returning it. Cheers , George
Hi
I would like to express my apreciation for this for great site. CONGATULATIONS.
My problem:
On the 7th of July 2009 I was on a vacation in Italy with my family. For that occasion I rentetd a car and after a visit to Firenze we arrived in Rome on the 15th of July 2009. On my way to the hotel, without any intent of violating any highway code I passed trough a ZTL (traffic limit zone), I wish to explain that the hotel (Notti a Roma) is situated in Via Firenze side street to via Nazionale. Via Firenze is a narrow street, so when I was discharging the luggage I was forced to move in order to make way to the traffic to pass,and consequently I had to make the same way trough the ZTL to Via Firenze for the discharging of the remaining luggage, which explains the 3 violations in a matter of 12 minutes.
On the 27th of August 2010, 408 days after the violation, I received a notice of payment for the above mentioned violation, but from the nivi site I discovered that the car rental company gave my particulars to the Italian authorities on the 28th of December 2009 less than 360 days. From previous posts it seems that it is almost clear that in my case the 360 days time limit has passed but also from another post there is one stating that the judge did not except such argument.
I sent my query to the customer service (of my country Malta) for complaints regarding probllems concerning the EU. The customer service in Malta contacted the Italian couterpart and their response was quite interesting and new and I like to shrae it with you.
According to the Italian Highway Code Article 201 when the person who makes the violation is a foreign citizen the authorities have to notify the individual about the traffic contravention within 360 days from the day of violation. Note however that this period stops running when the car rental company receives the fine and it will continue from when it stopped when the car rental company provide the Municipal Police with the driver’s details.
Receiving this response continued to puzzle me further more on the 360 days limit.
Thanks for you great work and if it is possible I like your opinion
On my chances of success on contesting my case. Thanks
Edmond
Malta
Hi Edmond,
Thanks!
From reading your post, I gather that you’ve received 3 “Notices of payment before notification” for ZTL violations committed on the 15th of July 2009.
These are “unofficial fines” sent via normal post by the collection agency EMO (Nivi) which is mandated by the Rome authorities to notify fines to foreigners.
The appeal authorities (Prefect or Justice of the Peace) are not mentioned, you can’t lodge an appeal.
Yet an other misinterpretation of Art. 201!
Why don’t you visit EMO’s website and read their (absolutely wrong) definition:
“the 360 days start as […] from the date of receipt of the personal data sent by the car rental company”.
(FAQ n°17 http://www.emo.nivi.it/Faq.aspx)
What I would do :
1 – WAIT for the official registered fines.
2 – You were “identified” around the end of December 2009.
If the official “Violation of the Highway Code notices” are SENT more than 360 days after your” identification”, then these fines are invalid even according to their definition.
Send an email to EMO, they will cancel your fines. ASK for a written confirmation!
I know for a fact that EMO has already cancelled fines which were sent over 360 days after identification.
3 – Appeal to the Prefect of Rome within 60 DAYS from the day of receipt of the Official Notifications.
Al Prefetto di Roma
Prefettura di Roma
via IV Novembre 119/A
00187 Roma
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included), November 10, 2010 at 4:46 pm (for multiple fines) comments.
Read August 3, 2010 at 10:19 pm, December 9, 2010 at 8:18 pm comments.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hello,
We were in Italy for 5 days, 4 months ago. Today we received 9 (!!) fines. One of them is from Siena – “NO TRANSIT AREA RISERVATA”, 4 of them are “VERBALE FINE ON LINE” – 2 from Roma & 2 from Firenze (the other 4 I didn’t get yet, only was charged by Hertz of 9 fines).
Can somebody guide me what is going on ? what to do ?
Thanks and regards,
Ofer
Hi Ofer,
Do not confuse Hertz charges (administration fees) for giving the personal data of the car renter to the Italian municipal police with the fines, which you will receive at a later date.
When you signed Hertz hire contract you agreed to pay for this admin charge. The rental Terms & Conditions allow that when you commit a traffic offence.
I would ask Hertz to justify these extra charges by emailing a scan of the fines.
These 9 fines (roughly 110€ each) are probably all for ZTL (Zona Traffico Limitato / Restricted Traffic Zone) violations. You drove in these restricted areas without permission.
These ZTL exist in many Italian cities.
http://www.romealive.com/romes_ztl_limited_traffic_z.html
http://italychronicles.com/how-to-avoid-fines-in-italy/
Read “Section 1 – the Important ‘need to know’ stuff” at the top of this page.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment and scroll down through the comments since May.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi I received two of these fines via hertz from Gallipoli.
how can I verify/contest the charges?
I don’t have any scans of the infraction, only the bills from hertz.
Hi Bill,
Hertz should have sent you copies of the original fines!
Read Steve’s September 8, 2011 at 9:34 pm comment and following comments.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-31537)
Were you staying in a hotel within Gallipoli’s ZTL (Zona Traffico Limitato / Restricted Traffic Zone)?
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi
I got my ticket 12/30/08
They say “notification abroad of administrative sanction” as stated inArt 201. They say legal proceeding will take place…in accordance to international agreements in my country…I am USA citizen…We are not EU…Do they have a right to come after me? The ironic thing is I was just in Italy again and nothing happened to me at the airport or hotels when I presented my passport. Do I pay? It has been 2 years!
Hi Brian,
You don’t give too many details!
My guess would be that the letter you just received was headed “Last Reminder”.
Right? If this is the case, the “official fine” was received months ago.
Your ticket could be “given” to a debt collection agency in the States.
Read August 25, 2010 at 11:34 pm, October 29, 2010 at 10:21 pm, November 3, 2010 at 9:44 pm comments.
Read April 23, 2010 at 9:34 am, September 24, 2010 at 6:55 pm comments.
Taking all things into consideration, …………
Hi
On 15th September 2009 a hire car i was in went through one of these Restricted Areas in Florence. I received 2 fines in June 2010 which I paid.
I then received 2 more fines (so 4 separate fines in total!!!) which were dated the 18th November 2010 but weren’t received at my address until 6th December 2010.
Am i still liable for these fines? or can i ignore them using the 360 day rule?? These letters were sent in the normal post.
Thanks
Peter
Hi Peter,
This is a little odd!
You’re sure these “2 more fines” are not the same as the 2 you paid in June?
You went through the restricted area at 4 different times of the day (on 15th September 2009) ? 4 different fine (infraction) numbers?
Naturally, if they’re the same, you should contact EMO (Nivi) and have them cancelled. Get it in writing!
Normal or registered post? Sometimes postmen don’t realize that it’s in fact Italian registered mail.
The informal notice (sent via normal post) is headed “ Notice of payment before notification”.
At this stage you can’t yet lodge an appeal.
The official fine (sent via registered mail) is headed “Violation of the Highway Code Notice” and must mention that you can appeal to the Prefect of … or the Justice of the Peace of … within 60 days …
These 2 fines are over the 360 day notification time limit (15th September 2009 –> 18th November 2010).
If these letters are “official notifications” (and even though you have not signed for them) I would appeal to the Prefect of Florence.
You can’t just ignore them if you want to follow the legal procedure.
If not, wait for the official registered notifications.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included), November 20, 2010 at 3:03 am comments.
BTW, you’ve already paid two fines, seems to me you’ve donated enough money to the municipality of Florence.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Very informative article.
I have just received a fine from a AutoVelux or mobile speed camera.
I presume this is the first notification but I am unable to check at present as it was delivered to my mother in law’s home yesterday, the 15th Dec, with the offence actually taking place on the 22nd Sept.
I would be interested in pursuing the option of testing the authorities patience
by taking them beyond a cut-off point i.e. demanding English translations, technical
specs of incident, camera details etc.
However, one thing which is different from all I’ve seen above is
that, even though I am a UK citizen, I am resident in Italy and the car is my own,
Italian bought and registered.
What would be the best tact here?
It’s a €50 fine but money is money and it is better off in my pocket.
Thanks,
Tom.
Hi Tom,
Your case is very different from all others. You’re an Italian resident!
Since August 13th 2010, the amount of time traffic fines have to be sent out to Italian residents has been reduced from 150 days to 90. (Law 29 July 2010, n. 120)
Italian residents usually receive one (and only one) notification sent via registered mail.
Your mother in law must have signed for the registered letter.
Demanding an English translation? For an Italian resident?
I’d suggest that you learn Italian pretty quickly or … get someone to translate the fine!
If you were Chinese, should the authorities send the fine in Chinese?
“Specs of incident, camera details etc.”? Italy has already had a big influence on you!
Possibly? But you’d have to hire an Italian lawyer to see if you can appeal on such grounds.
Even without a lawyer, appealing to the Justice of the Peace would cost you 38€. And you must attend the hearing or get someone to attend.
For 50€? (Speeding, up to 10 km/h over the limit)
You were notified in time. 22nd Sept –> 15th Dec –> 84 days < 90 days.
Even less! Because, for notification purposes, the relevant date is the fine sending date.
So, “the best tact” is to … pay!
Remember that you have 60 days (from the 15th Dec) to pay or the fine will roughly double.
“Testing the authorities patience” isn’t an option. Either you pay or appeal within 60 days.
Ultimately, it’s your decision naturally, and I should remind you that I’m not a lawyer.
But it’s simply not worth the hassle!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Yep, a fair cop I suppose.
Thanks, Al.
Tom.
Al, I would echo the appreciative comments of many others here. This is an excellent source of information which I recognise you are providing completely freely. You are obviously motivated by an inner sense of wrongdoing!
I can see from many of the posts that there is an expressed desire for someone belonging to a motoring organisation to take on the Italian legal system. I might be that someone. I am an EU resident and belong to the national motoring organisation. I have received notifications from a car rental company that they have passed on my details in connection with 3 infractions from June/July 2010 (2 speeding and 1 ZTL) in Tuscany. They have graciously included copies of the charges against me which has allowed me to begin to prepare for the inevitable official notifications. These details have now been passed on to lawyers at the motoring organisation who I hope will represent me. I have already collected sufficient photographic evidence to have one speeding ticket dismissed.
Since I fear there may be many more fines to come (and hence a whole load of deductions yet to be taken from my credit card for admin fees), and given the exceptionally long legal process, I will inform the car rental company that they have 2 options: 1) they can refund the admin fees immediately and refrain from deducting any more, or 2) the credit card deductions will be linked to a specified stock or commodity of my choosing such that when I am acquitted, the amount repayable will be according to the diffrence in the stock/commodity price between the date at which my credit card was charged and the date of acquital – naturally I could lose out but I expect a significant return.
I have also drafted a letter to the Italian ambassador in my country of residence (which is not my country of citizenship) in which I express my distaste for the way in which the law is enforced and the damage it causes to the Italian economy. We visited Rome twice during our holiday and on both occasions I followed police cars (Polizia Stradale and Carabinieri) at 160+ km/h along the A1 towards Florence over a distance of about 100 km. These guys were not using blues or responding to any emergency but I have a ticket for speeding behind them! Hardly reasonable. I have also taken photographs and videos in the region because I became so frustrated with the signposting of speed limits. I have one video that shows at least 4 changes of speed limit within a distance of 250 metres and the sequence is illogical. There were many such examples in Tuscany and I think it is completely unreasonable to fill such a region with a forest of speed cameras. I also have multiple examples of indiscernable speed limits on the A1 between Florence and Bologna. There are a lot of roadworks on this stretch and in many instances the change of limit from 80 km/h in the roadworks to 130 km/h is not posted. Furthermore some of the easy stretches of this road have a 100 km/h restriction whereas some of the more challenging stretches have the normal 130 km/h limit, so it isn’t even possible to guess what the speed limit is. If that wasn’t bad enough, a change in limit is often only indicated by a sign low down on the right-hand side of the carriageway, so any passing bus or lorry (of which there are many) will totally obscure the sign which is often followed by a camera. The cameras are generally well signed but the speed limits are not and I think that this amounts to state-sponsered extortion for which reason I choose to challenge the system.
I may wish to contact you privately as the legal process develops – please let me know how to do this. I will naturally make all information from my lawyers public and ensure that it is posted on this blog for the benefit of everybody.
Hi kemiker,
Alex, not Al here. Al is doing a great job, I agree – he’s BlogfromItaly.com’s unofficial resident Italy driving fines expert!
The motivation, as you have noticed, is to help people sort these fines out and, if possible, to make them fairer. They are giving Italy a bad reputation – not so much because of the fines themselves, but because so many people are being caught without realising they’ve done something wrong – this is either a case of poor communication or because there is easy money to be made – which is certainly the impression more than a few people are getting.
The hire/rental companies could do more – warning people at the time of hiring cars – and maybe giving them a copy of sections of this article and some of the comments would not be such a bad idea.
If you are going to challenge the Italian legal system – and this will not be easy, and it will not be quick either – court cases can smoulder on for decades here in Italy, then the very best of luck to you. I wonder whether there is the possibility of a class action (lots of comments here – so lots of people to involve, potentially!), though I’m not sure on what grounds exactly – that is lawyer territory and neither Al nor myself are lawyers.
You may contact me via the contact system of this site – it’s in the menu at the very top of this page.
Please keep us informed of progress and if you do get a legal challenge off the ground – I’ll write about it and how it is progressing.
Best regards,
Alex – not Al!
Can I just say, wonderful website. It’s been a great help in understanding some of the confusing things that have been arriving in my post box over the last year. And yes, that *is* a prelude to me asking you to evaluate a scenario that you have already discussed in other comments, but I’m not entirely sure where I stand.
I drove through a ZTL (twice) in Alghero, Sardinia on October 7th 2009.
In February 2010 I received a bill from my car rental company for the data transfers to the police.
I received the “friendly” notifications in July 2010. At the time I queried the fine as I thought I’d already paid (the Rental co. admin fee), and once I found out what the infraction was I challenged on the basis that my lodgings may have been inside the zone. I couldn’t find a map of the ZTL anywhere and the EMO agent couldn’t either, but told me to wait for the official notification so I could challenge the fine.
– * I’d just like to point out, the guy in EMO was a hell of a lot more helpful than the car rental agency, he at least explained what was going on and what what the infraction was, and he followed up on emails when I contacted them, never once trying to pressure me to pay up. Also, EMO sent all correspondence in english, which the Rental guys didn’t bother to. Given that there’s no legal wrangling involved, just company policies, Rental Agency reforms are the easy fix to this problem and they can’t be arsed doing anything about it. I know who the villain is in my story
Anyway, I’ve since found that my lodgings were not inside the ZTL – they’re outside by a good 800 meters – and in the process found this site.
The registered letter (“Since you have not paid the administrative sanction…” arrived just before christmas, postmarked 9/12/10 (signed for on the 23rd) – this was only related to 1 of the infractions though.
By my reckoning, the 360 days expired on Dec 1st 2010. Looking at earlier comments, EMO may cancel them or I can appeal to the Prefect.
However – Given that I acknowledged the un-registered notice in July, which was well inside the 360 days, by contacting EMO am I scuppered, or does the 360 day rule apply only to the Official/Registered Notice which EMO told me to wait for before appealing?
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
Hi Ben,
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states clearly that the 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic violation.
You drove through the ZTL in Alghero on October 7th 2009.
–>The 360 days expired on October 2nd 2010.
–>Your Official fine (postmarked 9/12/10) is invalid.
The “Notice of payment before notification” (“friendly” notification) has no legal value.
The 360 day rule applies only to the Official/Registered Notice.
EMO won’t cancel your fines because they claim shamelessly that the 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic offender’s “identification”.
You were “identified” around February 2010, the day the police received your personal details from the car rental company.
If you receive the 2nd Official Notice (for the 2nd infraction) in the next few weeks you can send one letter of appeal for the two fines. Same grounds: over 360 days, same Prefect.
–> But be sure not to let the “60 days from reception of the official notification” expire before sending the appeal letter.
You signed for the 1st Official Notice on December 23rd 2010. You have until February 21st 2011 to send it in.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included), November 10, 2010 at 4:46 pm comments. Read August 21, 2010 at 9:58 pm comment.
Alghero is in the province of Sassari.
You must send your registered letter (of appeal) with proof of receipt to:
Al Prefetto di Sassari
Piazza d’Italia 31
07100 Sassari.
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification
Write “Al Prefetto Sassari… + full address …” also on the appeal letter.
“Il sottoscritto___” for a man, “La sottoscritta___” for a woman.
Do not confuse the “notification/fine number” with “EMO’s file number”.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al (not Alex)
I contacted you a few months back on this subject and sent my appeal to the Prefect of Rome. No reply yet. What I have just realised is that I sent my letter with proof of postage, NOT recorded signature delivery. I actually asked the post office for the latter but they seem to have done the wrong thing and I guess I wasn’t concentrating. Does this now mean I don’t have a leg to stand on?
Dominic
Hi Dominic,
Blimey! All of your efforts were probably to no avail.
Article 203,1-bis of the Italian Highway Code (Appeal to the Prefect) states that the appeal must be sent via recorded mail with proof of receipt.
I imagine your appeal will be deemed inadmissible.
Well, I’d say: “Forget about it”!
There’s nothing you can do at this point other than wait & see.
Whatever happens (if anything), I know what I would do!
And do come back to visit beautiful Italy!
Al (not Alex)
Thanks for the reply, Al. That’s exactly what I wanted to hear
I have my template ready to go (I read the other comments before posting, I swear! 
) so I’m just waiting on the 2nd letter which the postal service attempted to deliver yesterday. Again, thanks for taking the time to answer.
HI guys,
Just wanted to say thanks for putting together this very useful information.
My own scenario is of visiting Italy in July/Aug 2009, including a couple of nights in Florence. During my time there I seem to have picked up a fine for “Moving around carriageways reserved for other vehicles indicated in the signs”.
Naturally I have no recollection of this and we did only drive to our hotel, to the Garage and then out of town again on the day we left.
So the alleged offence is from 2009-07-30.
On 2010-05-07 I was charged an admin fee by the car-rental company for providing my details to the police. They sent me a letter by recorded delivery informing me that they had done that and included a copy (in Italian) of the letter they had received from the police. Since I didn’t understand Italian, I rang the UK office of the same car-rental company who explained this was just and admin fee and I should do nothing further until I received formal notification from the Italian authorities.
Around July/Aug 2010 (sorry I don’t recall the exact date) I received a letter from the “Polizia Municipale” or in fact “EMO” it appears, with details of the offence and asking me to pay the fine. Since this arrived in the normal post I chose to ignore it.
Yesterday I received a recorded delivery letter which my wife has signed for. This is dated 2010-12-16, and again is asking me to pay the fine.
If I have understood everything correctly, then this is the first letter whereby I have been officially informed of the offence. And since it is now over 520 days since the alleged offence I am not obliged to pay it. I have taken a copy of the template letter, amended it to suit my own circumstances and intend sending it to the Prefect.
If I’ve misunderstood anything, then please let me know. Otherwise I’d just like to say once again Thank You for pulling together all the information and taking the time to respond to everyone who has posted. Without this Blog, I wouldn’t have had a clue what to do about this and would undoubtedly have taken the wrong action.
Thanks
Kevin.
Hi Kevin,
Thanks ! You’ve read this page thoroughly before posting. It makes things a lot easier!
What else can I say other than to repeat myself.
Send your registered letter of appeal with proof of receipt to:
Al Prefetto di Firenze
Prefettura di Firenze
Ufficio Ricorsi per Violazioni al Codice della Strada (Appeals office for violations of the Highway Code)
Via Antonio Giacomini 8
50132 Firenze
Write “Al Prefetto Firenze… + full address …” also on the appeal letter.
Do not confuse the “notification/fine number” with “EMO’s file number”.
In Italy the date format is (dd/mm/yyyy).
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Janos,
An appeal to the Prefect can either be sent:
–> “directly” to the Prefect
Al Prefetto di Roma
Prefettura di Roma
via IV Novembre 119/A
00187 Roma
Or
–> “through” the “competent police station” (the authority that gave you the fine).
In your case:
Al Prefetto di Roma
Comune di Roma
U.O. Contravvenzioni
Via Ostiense 131/L
00154 – ROMA
Read September 10, 2010 at 8:42 pm comment.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included), November 10, 2010 at 4:46 pm (appeal template for multiple fines) comments.
Write “Al Prefetto di Roma… + full address …” also on the appeal letter.
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the 4 Official Notifications.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
Thank you very much.
I am to go to the post office right now with the letter.
Best regards,
Janos
First of all, thank you for writing and maintaining this very useful
blog.
I’ve received a letter from Europcar, indicating a speeding violation
while I was using one of their cars last September, and I would
appreciate advice on what I should do next.
Although it was some months ago now, I can’t deny that I might have
been speeding at some point, so on that basis I’m happy to pay the
fine – but there are several details that I’m not sure about.
Firstly, I haven’t received any communication apart from this one from
Europcar. From reading this blog, it seems I would normally expect to
receive a registered letter from the relevant Italian local police (in
Commune di Vergiate, to the north of Milan), or from an organisation
like EMO. But I haven’t received anything like that. Although the
Europcar letter includes a copy of the violation description, which I
assume the police sent to Europcar, the purpose of this Europcar
letter appears to be only to inform me about Europcar’s admin fee
(which has been charged to my credit card) for passing my details to
the police.
Does that sound correct? Or, am I supposed to treat this also as a
communication from the police, and take steps to make payment and any
other reparation needed?
Secondly, the dates indicate strange delays. Subject to my imperfect
understanding of Italian, I think the violation description indicates
that
- the offence took place on 5th September (which is reasonable)
- the description was processed (? “verbalizzato”) on 14th October
- and dispatched by post on 21st October — I presume to Europcar,
because the apparently main part of the description, in capital
letters, is instructing someone to provide details of the driver at
the time of the offence.
Given those dates, I wonder why it has taken until sometime last week
(i.e. later than 17th January) for Europcar to write to me? Also I
wonder if the elapsed time since 21st October indicates that any
direct communication from the police has been lost, or that they
perhaps decided for some reason not to send it, and hence that I don’t
need to do anything further?
Thirdly — and again subject to my very poor Italian — the offence
description indicates, as well as a fine of E160.60, a 3 point
endorsement on the driver’s driving licence. Which raises the
following points.
- Is there a mechanism for points to be endorsed on a UK licence as a
result of an offence in Italy?
- If so, what is the procedure? Also, I believe I’ve seen (from
reading around) that an Italian licence equates to 20 Italian
penalty points, whereas I believe a UK license equates to 12 UK
penalty points. Hence, presumably, if they are transferable to a UK
licence, 3 Italian points should not equate to 3 UK points?
I think that’s everything. I’d be very grateful for any advice and
comments that people can offer.
Regards,
Neil
Hi Neil,
Yes, the purpose of the Europcar letter is to inform you about their admin fee for passing your details to the police.
There’s no need to take any further steps. In the next few weeks (months) you’ll receive a letter (fine) either by regular or recorded mail, depending on who sent it (EMO or the relevant Italian local police).
I don’t know if EMO has been mandated by the municipality of Vergiate (province of Varese) to notify fines to foreigners.
Read closely April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Why has it taken “so long” for Europcar to write to you? Who cares? By now the Vergiate police has your details and will likely (or ask EMO to) send you the fine.
Art. 142,8 – Italian Highway Code, speeding by more than 10km/h up to 40km/h over the limit: –> Fine: from 159 to 639€ and 3 points deducted on the driver’s driving license.
The fine will probably be in the amount of roughly 190€ (minimum amount + notifying/procedural costs).
Presumably you’ll also be asked to provide the driver’s details. Should the 3 points be endorsed on your driving license Neil? You were the holder of the rental agreement but were you also the driver at the time of the offence?
Failure to provide the driver’s details and you’ll be subjected to a further fine of 269€ (up to 1075€). (Art 126-bis)
But no points are endorsed on a foreign (UK) driving license. The 3 point deduction (out of a total of 20) applies only in Italy.
Let’s wait peacefully for an harmonization of 27 different EU highway codes.
And beware not to lose an other 17 points in Italy!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thanks very much indeed, Al. I’ll wait for the official letter, and then pay the fine.
It was indeed me driving at the time; apparently 30kph over a 60kph limit. I was surprised to read that, as I believe I don’t normally speed anywhere near that amount – but my wife says she remembers a point where I was going clearly too fast. I will take more care in the future.
Many thanks again,
Neil
Neil
Before you pay, just check the signposting on Google Street view. The camera’s exact location (road name and distance marker) will be given on the notification you have from Europcar. It seems a bit surprising that you were doing 50% more than the speed limit deliberately and without knowing it. Make sure that the indicated speed limit at the camera is as stated and that none of the speed limit signs are obscured by excessive foliage or other signs.
I have a fine on the way for allegedly doing 70 kph in a 50 zone. The signposts (at least the ones that can be seen) clearly indicate it is a 90 kph zone. It’s then straightforward to put together a picture sequence to prove ones innocence. If you wanted to appeal on that basis you would have to translate it into Italian. I won’t bother to appeal, I’ll be forcing a court case instead. You might also be interested to read a post that I will make in the next day or so regarding cross border enforcement, particularly from Italy, based on advice from my motoring organisation.
Best
Kemiker
hi,
I have read information on your blog and the discussion below but I am still a bit concerned. I have received my ticket on november 2010 and the violation took place in July 2009, so after lapsing of 360 days. I am the owner of the car. In instructions on the bottom of fine there is suggestion that I can appeal to judge of peace and there is no information on such possibility to appealt to prefect. What can I do? Are the two options being paid? Can I just wrote a letter informing polizia provincionale that they missed deadline to fine me?
sorry, I have placed this post two times
thx in advance,
dokti
Hi dokti,
Have you read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment?
It’s probably too late to lodge an appeal. You had 60 days to dispute your fine since the day of receipt of the Official Fine.
Where did you commit the traffic violation? Who sent you the fine?
I find it odd that there’s no mention of the Prefect. There must be!
It would be pointless to write a letter to the local police or to the Justice of the Peace/Prefect (the 60 day deadline has passed).
I’d say: “Forget about it”!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi,
yes, I have read. I have received this ticket in a half of december, so I am still in time to SUbmit an appeal. But the problEM is I don’t know how:0. I could send the scan of this letter, I have received it from polizia provinciale di Pisa.
greetings froM Poland:)
dokti
Hello Poland!
If you’ve received the fine mid-December (and not in November, like you wrote in your first post), then you’re still in time to appeal.
Check the date on the ticket. For the 360 day notification time limit the relevant date is the letter (fine) sending date, not the date you received it in Poland!
The letter was sent from polizia provinciale di Pisa. Therefore, you can appeal to the Prefect of the province of Pisa.
Copy/paste the appeal template (April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment) and send your registered letter of appeal with proof of receipt to:
Al Prefetto di Pisa
Prefettura di Pisa
Piazza Mazzini 7
56100 PISA
Write “Al Prefetto di Pisa… + full address …” also on the appeal letter.
“Il sottoscritto___” for a man, “La sottoscritta___” for a woman.
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of your ticket!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Dokti
I’m assuming that the notification was sent in English, so you should ask for the notification to be resent in Polish. It is your right under the European Human Rights Convention (details at the top of the blog). You must also clearly be informed of your rights. Without wishing to be rude, you are clearly somewhat confused by what you have received and the notification cannot count as having been served until you have it in a language that you fully understand. Your 60 day appeal limit will then run from the date at which the Polish translation was posted from Pisa.
Good luck
Kemiker
The 60 day appeal time limit runs from the day you receive the official (registered) notification.
Al (not Alex)
Hi,
Allow me to add my thanks in addition to all the previous mailers for the information you provide.
Briefly, I apparently fell foul of the limited traffic zone in Alghero, Sardinia, on the 10th, 11th, 12th and 16th October 2009 and consequently received my official notifications postdated 16th December 2010 clearly outside the 360 day mandate. Using your template and additional advice my appeal has been sent to the prefect for his/her consideration and I await their response.
The reason for my email is as follows: I have no complaints about the correct use of the law and its enforcement but where this is breached by the other party then I would expect to be the beneficiary. EMO have been granted a legitimate contract to recover motoring fines by a number, if not all, Italian police authorities. In order to carry out that process they must know the framework of the law in which they participate and train their process administrators accordingly( I refer to the 360 day rule for foreign residents). The fact that so many complaints have been made regarding this legislation suggests to me that EMO are knowingly trying to extort money from non – Italian residents by false pretences which may be a criminal offence. Without this site I too would have reluctantly paid these fines and I now wonder how many other unsuspecting visitors have condescended to EMO’s demands. The fact that they are acting in an unscrupulous manner should be brought to the attention of higher Italian authority in order that they can be investigated and ordered to conduct their business professionally.
Many thanks again to all the contributors
Gee
Hi Gee,
I hope you’re patient!
A Prefect has up to 360 days to send you his response.
After 360 days without reply the appeal is deemed to be accepted.
Your second paragraph is absolutely spot-on!
EMO works on a commission basis, around 35% + VAT of the amount of the fine paid (not included the procedural costs).
Emo will continue dishing invalid fines out without so much as blinking an eye because they expect the foreign offenders (“suckers”) to pay blindly.
Many will pay up out of fear, peace of mind, … and they know that it’s rather difficult for foreigners to challenge the legality of these fines.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Gee
I agree with you completely. I will post in the next couple of days with info from my motoring organisation regarding cross border enforcement of Italian fines – they have a major legal problem.
I too consider it to be extortion when the EMO knowingly sends out invalid fines and I would respond in kind. Write back to them saying that they should not be sending this sort of rubbish out, that you consider it to be attempted extortion and if they persist you will put a case before the courts in your country of residence for that offence (such an offence is enforcable across national EU boundaries). Copy the Italian ambassador in your country of residence.
Alternatively, you can refuse to pay until an Italian court has passed judgement against you. Until that happens you owe nothing, you are merely being asked to make a voluntary payment. Since the time limit has expired, the case won’t go anywhere near a court. The EMO only exists because it successfully extorts money from foreign motorists. If the existsing rules were followed, the EMO would not have any funding.
Best
Kemiker
Hi Kemiker and Gee,
If you suspect EMO of acting unlawfully, then you should bring a case against them. This will be costly and very time consuming (it takes years for cases to go through the court system in Italy), however, Italy does now have a form of ‘Class Action’ system, and it may be applicable to this case – you would need the assistance of Italian lawyers to do this, and you’d need plenty of people to join in to keep costs down, and you’d need to understand how much compensation could be claimed too to understand whether a class action would be cost effective.
Merely mentioning that you are thinking of this may cause EMO to rethink its approach to these fines, but not necessarily. To demonstrate unlawful action on the part of EMO would require proof, not mere supposition.
If you do want to go down the class action route, I do know a good firm of lawyers who might be able to help!
Alex, not Al – and neither Al nor myself, Alex, are lawyers.
Hi Alex
I wouldn’t bring a case before an Italian court – I’d sue from my home country since that is where they are attempting to extort the money from.
Kemiker
Hi everyone,
The Sassari prefect considered my appeal on 15 April 2011 which went as expected and I was notified by EMO that the fines had increased to
€753 on he 11 August 2011.
I have contacted EMO by email quoting the 360 day rule which they insist is from the date the offender is identified. Their reply included the following:-
“Please be aware that according Art. 201 of the Italian Highway Code, Municipal Police is legally able to send a fine abroad within 360 days from the day of the infraction or from the day that the car rental company have sent your details to the Municipal Police.” A further email from EMO quoted art 201 in Italian and highlighted the following section -
Per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento. They went on to explain – “Accertamento” literally means “verification”. In case of a rented vehicle, the “accertamento” starts when Municipal Police verify who was the renter of this vehicle, therefore when your car rental company have provided your personal details. Unfortunately Municipal Police will still consider this case outstanding.
I suggested in my reply that their copy of art. 201 was incomplete and quoted -
LA NOTIFICA DEL VERBALE
Resident in Italy
E’ quindi chiaro che il giorno da cui partire col conteggio dei 150 giorni non e’ facile da stabilire perche’ puo’ variare da caso a caso, e non e’ pertanto possibile standardizzare ne’ le regole ne’ i possibili ricorsi riguardanti questo delicato punto.
Resident abroad
Il caso di residenti all’estero, invece, il verbale dev’essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Their response was as follows –
Feel free to contact an Italian Embassy, feel free to contact a Lawyer or your MEP but your are posting a wrong interpretation of the article in question.
Unfortunately what you are saying ” calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione” it’s false. Probably you’ve found it on a on-line chat/site, but this is not the actual Art. 201, but just a wrong interpretation of it.
My apologies for the lengthy message but I thought it would be nice to let you know what EMO’s persistence is like.
Finally, what would you suggest I should do next.
Kind regards
Gee
Hi again Gee,
Thanks for your lengthy message!
YES !
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states: “Per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento.”
YES !
“Accertamento” literally means “verification”.
You can “ascertain”:
- A traffic violation on the day it was committed (picture of your license plate by a ZTL traffic camera, …),
- A driver’s identity when the Municipal Police receive the details of the car renter,
- Whatever you wish!!!
The “slight” problem is that the word “accertamento” is mentioned 5 times in Art. 201,1, ALWAYS in reference to the ascertainment of the traffic violation!!!
EMO or a Prefect’s underling can not deliberately (or out of sheer stupidity) misrepresent the law and decide that suddenly the word “accertamento” in Art. 201,1 might refer to something else!
They should read Decision 198/1996 of the Italian Constitutional Court.
Excerpt: “WHILE for residents abroad the legislator sets an absolutely insuperable notifying time limit, although determining it in an ample manner (more than twice the one for Italian citizens), for the latter (Italian citizens) ON THE CONTRARY the 150 day time limit starts from the moment the actual offender or the other individuals liable are subsequently identified.”
In their response they even have the gall to add: “Feel free to contact an Italian Embassy, … Probably you’ve found it on a on-line chat/site”.
You can appeal the Prefect’s decision to the Justice of the Peace within 60 days of receiving the Prefect’s letter. (Art 205)
But as I’ve already written: “What are we expected to do from abroad? Go through the entire legal process to be vindicated in such a simple matter?”
Or you can let the whole matter drop!
Obviously I would never pay!
They can go to hell!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Following my 20th December…….
I contacted our local MEP and Pia from his dept came back with :_
Dear Mr Murphy,
In the meantime I have received information that according to the Italian Traffic Code, Section 201, the police or their agents have 360 days after the date of the violation, to issue fine notices. In the case of foreigners not resident in Italy, using foreign registered or hired vehicles, the 360 day notification period starts once the police, or their agents, have identified the driver.
If a fine notice is issued after the 360 day period, the driver is entitled to appeal against the fine notice, in writing, to the Prefect of the town or city where the alleged traffic infringement took place. The letter should draw attention to Section 201 of the Italian Traffic Code (Codice della Strada).
In a number of recent cases the fine notice has been issued more than 360 days after the driver has been identified, and following an appeal, these have been annulled by the civil authorities. If you are in any doubt about the date of notification of identity I suggest you request clarification from the fine issuing authority.
Kind regards,
Pia Tamm
Assistant to Daniel Hannan MEP
I hope this may help some other poor unfortuate ! Regards,
Thanks for this, Jim.
It may well help some people, even if this section does not say how long the police have to identify drivers:
“In the case of foreigners not resident in Italy, using foreign registered or hired vehicles, the 360 day notification period starts once the police, or their agents, have identified the driver.”
If, for example, the police don’t get around to checking who the driver is for 100 days, then the 360 day limit becomes, presumably, 460 days.
From the article here:
“Car owner (“owner” could be hire/rental company) [then] has 60 days to tell the police that the driver was foreign and to supply details of the driver.”
But we still don’t know how much time the police have to start the process of identifying the owner. Under Italian law, the offence would extinguish itself after 5 years – if no action has been taken – as is my understanding.
In theory, the police could ‘discover’ an offence three years after it happened, and the 360 period would start from then.
The appeal process should clarify the dates and the authorities may annul the fines.
It’s still murky – but basically, if you receive one of these fines well over the 360 day limit, you should lodge an appeal – details of how to do this are in comments above.
Best, and thanks again,
Alex
Jim,
You’ve decided not to appeal but to pay the “damn” fine and “cross Italy off your holiday list”.
That’s fine with me, the decision is yours naturally.
BUT before putting your trust in Pia Tamm (Assistant to Daniel Hannan MEP) you should have asked her from whom did she get that “bloody” awful WRONG information about “the 360 day notification period starting once the police have identified the driver”.
Would you be so kind as to ask her?
Was it from an entity that is financially motivated by any chance?
Alex (Roe),
This section says all you need to know.
What does Art. 201,1 – Notificazione delle violazioni (Notification of violations) say?
“Per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento”.
–> Residents abroad must be notified within 360 days from the date of the ascertainment.
The traffic violation is ascertained (discovered) the day it is committed. By a speed radar, a ZTL camera, …
In the same way as if the traffic offender had been pulled up by the police on the spot.
Art. 201,1 mentions the word “accertamento” 5 times, always in reference to the ascertainment of the traffic violation, NOT the ascertainment of the driver’s identity.
Art. 201,1 distinguishes between:
- Italian residents who have to be notified within 90 days (150 days for violations committed before August 13th 2010) from the date of the traffic violation OR AS SOON as they can be identified.
- Foreign residents who have to be notified within 360 days from the date of the traffic violation.
The time the police need to identify the (foreign resident) driver (whether he was at the wheel of his private vehicle or a hired car) is INCLUDED in the 360 days (from the date of the traffic violation).
That is why the legislator has anticipated:
- A longer notification time limit of 360 days for foreign residents,
- A shorter 90 day time limit for Italian residents who (if necessary) can be identified and then notified at a later date.
What do the Judges of the Constitutional Court say in their Decision 198/1996 about the 360 day notification time limit for foreign residents?
They compare (“pit against each other”) the different notification time limits for Italian residents and foreign residents
–> WHILE the legislator has determined an absolutely insuperable (“assolutamente insuperabile”), ample but rigid (“ampio ma rigido”) time limit for foreign residents, ON THE CONTRARY, the (shorter) time limit for Italian residents runs (if necessary) from the time the Italian resident is later identified.
If you, Alex, Italian resident, committed a ZTL traffic violation in Milan while driving a hired car?
–> The police must send the fine within 90 days (from the date of the traffic violation) to the rental agency,
–> The rental agency then must send your details within 60 days (required by law) to the police,
–> Once the police have (identified you) received your details they have an other 90 days to send you the fine.
If your private vehicle had been photographed going well over the speed limit?
As owner of the car you’d receive (within 90 days) the fine. But an Italian friend of yours was driving at the time of the violation. You’d have 60 days to pass his details to the police, ………………, and he would be the one to lose points on his driving license.
Owner and driver remain jointly liable for the payment of the fine.
If you had just bought a car and weren’t yet registered at the DVLA (Motorizzazione)?
–> The fine must be sent within 90 days from the first day you’re registered at the DVLA.
If you had just moved house?
–> From the first day you’re registered at the Comune (ufficio anagrafe).
(Only if you’ve regularly announced your change of address and indicated that you own a car)
A fine sent three years after the date of the traffic violation is valid up and until the (foreign resident) traffic offender lodges an appeal (within 60 days of receiving it) on the grounds that the 360 day notification time limit has run out.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
hello Alex/Al,
I recently received an official letter from the Mantova Municipal Police citing an offense: “7/1-14, driving in a limited traffic zone without authorization”
This was done on Feb 6th 2010, the envelope is post marked 28th January 2011…. 356 days
However, I didn’t sign for it and currently have that yellow card in front of me, still attached to the original envelope.
My understanding is that I haven’t “Officially” been notified yet because I haven’t signed for receiving it. Thus, I don’t have to do anything… yet. And then, chances are that my 360 days will have expired by the time I get another notification.
Can you confirm this?
Really appreciate this website and the time / effort you have put in… many thanks.
David
same as above…
I should clarify that I was driving a rental car… and I don’t see a date of when they handed over my information.
Does this change the situation? Or is the 360 days still from the actual incident?
Also, I see no mention of a Prefect. It tells me that if i wish to “make a formal objection within 60 days from the fine notification date to the local Justice of the Peace of the district where the offence was committed and to the above mentioned Police Station Department”
Once again, I didn’t sign for anything…
Hi David,
Only 5 more days!
Your understanding is correct.
The fact of the matter is that the Mantova municipal police can’t prove that you have received the official fine.
They don’t have any yellow card (proof of receipt) with your signature on it.
Furthermore they won’t even get the yellow card (without your signature) back because your postman didn’t realize that he was dealing with “international registered mail”.
At this stage you haven’t been officially notified, your notification is “irregular”.
Will you receive another notification? Who knows?
The identification notion applies only to Italian residents.
The word “Prefect” (of Mantova) should be mentioned.
An appeal to the Prefect can either be sent:
–> “directly” to the Prefect (at the Prefecture) or
–> “through” the “relevant police station”.
They should write (to be thorough) that you can make a formal objection to the Prefect “care of” the above mentioned Police Station Department.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
thanks Al… i guess i just wait it out now and see if i get another ‘official’ letter and then if i do, check the dates and make sure the 360 days is up. Fingers crossed
Once again, appreciate the time you’ve put into this blog
I have just received two notice of payment fines for entry into the restricted area of Florence , both on the same day and timed within 18 minutes of each other , Firstly ,i didnt know that there was any restricions in place and secondly twice on the same journey !!
I’m inclined just to ignore them ,what will happen if i dont pay them ,will costs etc be added all the time they remain unpaid ,will the unpaid fines flag up should i go back to Italy ,whats the score
Gary,
Please read the information at the top of this page, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment and scroll down through the comments since May.
Al (not Alex)
My case involves 2 fines occuring on the 31/05/08.
The notice of payment was posted out 12/12/08. The invoice from Avis for the admin costs is dated 16/12/08.
I never received the official fines.
Dec. 2010 I received the Last reminders which are dated 03/12/10.
I have contacted the EMO stating that I never received the offical fines and asking for proof of delivery. After several emails back and forward their response was:
“The official notification for traffic fines was mailed by registered post with return receipt on 29th May 2009. With the number of the two registered letters provided in our previous message, you can check with your local post office why these letters were not duly delivered, especially because you received the 1st notices of payment dated 12th December 2008 and last reminder letters dated 3rd December 2010 without any problem.
Unfortunately, the signed returned receipts are missing, but since many times foreign post officers deliver registered letters and fail to have return receipts signed (they simply leave this document to the receipient), the Municipal Police of Florence do not agree to cancel your fines. If you wish to dispute your tickets, you need to submit a formal appeal with the competent Authority, the Prefect of Florence.”
Couple of questions spring to mind:
1. I have never received the official fines except via email during this conversion and they have no proof that I have received them.
2. They supposedly posted the fines after the 360 day limit (infractions on 31/05/08, offical fines 29/05/09).
Where do I stand with regard to this?
Thanks for your help.
Hi Paddy,
Firstly I’ll remind you that I’m not a lawyer (I know Alex Roe will appreciate this
).
–> The 2 traffic violations occurred on May 31, 2008.
) were mailed out on May 29, 2009.
–> The notices of payment (posted out 12/12/08) are merely “courtesy letters”, without any legal value.
–> The 2 official notifications (that you’ve never received
–> The Last reminders (dated 03/12/10) are unofficial letters sent via normal mail. One can not appeal on the basis of a last reminder letter.
1 – You’re right! The official notifications were sent after the 360 day notification time limit had expired.
31/05/08 –> 29/05/09 –> 363 days!
2 – I can understand EMO’s argument about “many times foreign post officers deliver registered letters and fail to have return receipts signed”. Suffice it to read a few of the comments above.
But the fact of the matter is that EMO/Florence Municipal Police do not have any return receipts with your signature (or mentioning the fact that you’ve refused to sign for the registered mail).
What would happen in such a case, if you were an Italian resident?
- The postman tries to deliver the official registered notification. No one’s home. The postman leaves a slip in your mailbox. No one goes to the post office to collect the fine, either because you’re on holiday or because you’ve got better things to do.
- The post office must send you a second (registered with proof of receipt) notice informing/warning you that there’s a registered letter at the post office for you.
- No one goes to the post office in the following ten days to collect the fine.
Only then (on the tenth day) would you be considered to be officially notified!
So unless EMO wants to establish an unprecedented discriminatory difference of treatment claiming that a foreign resident is to be considered officially notified merely because “foreign post officers fail to have return receipts signed”.
If you had received the official fines you could have appealed on the grounds of the 360 day notification time limit having run out and, perhaps for other reasons as well.
To lodge an appeal today?
Well yeah! But an appeal can only be submitted within 60 days of receiving the official fine!
So it would have to be an informal appeal!?!
To the Prefect of Florence? He’d grab a pre-printed letter of refusal in a jiffy and order you to pay roughly double the amount.
To the Justice of the Peace? Unpredictable result (or maybe too predictable) and damn too difficult.
Ignore the last reminder letters! Send EMO packing!
If they keep on chasing you with anything more serious than last reminders, it seems to me that you have at least two good reasons not to give in to their illegitimate demands.
But they won’t. What might happen is that you’ll receive a letter from a debt collection agency established in your country of residence (again, without any legal value).
I’d wait peacefully for mutual recognition of financial penalties, including those related to road traffic offences, and for cross-border enforcement of traffic offences in the EU to be really effective.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Paddy
Read my posting below. It sheds a bit more light on Al’s last 2 points about debt collection agencies and mutual recognition of financial penalties.
Realistically, the only conviction that can obtained against you is not enforcable outside Italy, which is why it will never happen.
The whole point of sending registered letters is to get a proof of receipt! If the EMO cannot furnish the receipts in a court then there is no case to answer. There is not a court in Europe that would accept the ascertion that you had received official notification. You’re the defendant, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution.
Best
Kemiker
Guys thanks for your replies they have been extremely helpful.
To add a bit more – in later emails I still pushed the fact that I haven’t received the official notification within even their time scale of 360 days after Avis giving my details (Avis gave them on Dec. 08 and I have received them via email on 12/10/10). I stated that because of this the fines are void. Their response was:
“The Municipal Police of Florence confirm your fines.”
So there you go… their power of diplomacy and reasonable argument.
I have got my solicitor involved so we see where we go from here.
Al – I noticed above you quoted “Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states clearly that the 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic violation.”
Is there anywhere on the internet I can get a copy of this? I’ve done a search and can’t find anything.
Also has anyone been given the double fine yet for not paying? I am running out of my latest 60 day limit.
Hi Paddy,
“The Municipal Police of Florence confirm your fines.”
Because, “within (even) their time scale of 360 days”, they claim that they have received your details from Avis in December 2008 and that your official notifications were sent out on May 29, 2009. –> Less than 360 days between these two dates.
Even though you’ve never signed for these official notifications sent out in May 2009!
(An official fine must be sent via registered mail with proof of receipt, they do not take into account the official notifications received via unregistered email on 12/10/10).
As I’ve written in my previous message an appeal can only be submitted within 60 days of receiving the official fine (sent via registered post). You do not have a “latest 60 day appeal time limit”!
Therefore, appealing today to the Prefect (enclosing scans of your two official fines dated May 2009), will lead almost certainly to one of the two following results:
- No response. They won’t even consider your illegitimate appeal,
- They may take the trouble to send you a reply ordering you to pay roughly double the amount.
Now, if you wish to write an informal appeal, a letter to the Prefect of Florence, the Mayor of Florence, the Italian Ambassador in your country or any other Authority……………..
“Al – I noticed above you quoted “Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states clearly that the 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic violation.””
Yes, that’s what I, Al, wrote and that’s what any ordinary bloke (with an “average” IQ and not in bad faith) who can speak Italian & think would say after having read Article 201,1.
Subsequently I found “corroborative evidence” (written in Italian) on the internet.
Have you read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of this page and my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment?
Such an appeal need only be based on (need only draw attention to) Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code which is, as I’ve said, crystal clear.
To my knowledge EMO sends a Notice of Payment followed by the Official fine and finally a Last Reminder.
Always requesting the same amount, more or less a few Euros (due to notifying costs – normal/registered mail). Even though, in case of non-payment after 60 days, the liable amount is (as required by law) roughly double the original amount.
Then they desist and eventually “entrust” your file to a debt collection agency established in your country of residence.
My reply in a nutshell?
I would sleep like a baby after having gotten plastered (with my solicitor) in the nearest pub where I would have ranted about EMO and had a jolly good laugh!
Once I’d sobered up, I’d think of all the other beautiful things Italy has to offer.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Alex, Al & fellow persecuted tourists
Further to my posting on 29 December 2010, there have been a few developments. My national motoring organisation is not able to represent me since they only deal with domestic traffic laws and issues arising in respect thereof. However, they can give me qualified advice based on the experiences of other members with foreign traffic violations, in particular those incurred in Italy, that I believe should be shared with the readers of this blog.
Firstly, I am informed that people who have successfully appealed on account of the 360 day rule, have received a response when their fines have been cancelled – unfortunately I haven’t got any details (like if it was 360 days from the date of the offence of from the date of ID). I don’t know if it happens in every case but nobody on this blog has yet reported receiving any confirmation, so I thought it worth mentioning.
More importantly, legal instruments exist, and have been in place for many years, that enable enforcement of financial penalties across national boundaries within the EU (Council Framework Decision 2005/214/JHA). This specifically includes financial penalties invoked as a result of road traffic offences. Italy is not a signatory to this legislation – why not you may well ask? The reason is that there are safeguards in place to prevent Member States from extorting money from foreign motorists in the interests of generating revenue. A certain alignment of national traffic laws and standards of evidence is also required in order for countries to become signatories. As with most things written in legalese, it is somewhat laborious to read through, contradictory in parts, and there have been several amendments but I have been reliably informed, by my motoring organisation, that the relevant parts of this legislation are interpreted and applied as follows:
1. The issuing country must provide documentary evidence in respect of its claim sufficient to obtain a conviction for the same offence in the accused’s country of residence (the enforcing country).
2. If convicted the penalty must be enforced by the defendant’s country of residence.
3. The financial penalty remains in the enforcing country, not the issuing country, ie. if you live in France and are convicted of a driving offence in Italy, you pay the money to the public purse in France.
Firstly, if like me, you live in a country that requires photographic evidence identifying the offending driver and vehicle, and to an extent the location, an Italian prosecution could never succeed. The photographic evidence from my alleged ZTL infraction identifies only the back end of a car – albeit with what appears to be a digitally manipulated number plate. There is nothing to prove who was driving or where the alleged offence occurred. Many northern European countries require an identifiable picture of the driver and vehicle as a minimum. So if you live north of Club Med you are safe even if Italy does become a signatory.
Secondly, it means that the EMO would cease to exist because its funding would dry up. This would leave the Italian municipal police forces to fulfil their obligations with respect to translation, sending out fines and chasing them up. A time consuming and costly exercise with no financial comeback. So what do you think the chances are that tourists would continue to be persecuted, if Italy used the proper legal mechanisms for cross-border enforcement of road traffic laws?
Several contributors above have reported receiving threatening letters from the authorities that mention taking action “…in accordance with the legal agreements with your country…”. You can safely ignore such threats. If you can be bothered, you can reply that there exist no legal agreements between Italy and your country until such time as Italy sees fit to become a signatory to the Council Framework Decision 2005/214/JHA. The only possibility is the Brussels I Regulation (aka. EC No 44/2001), which is intended for civil and commercial cases such as child custody and patent infringement. Article 2 begins with:
1. Subject to this Regulation, persons domiciled in a Member State shall, whatever their
nationality, be sued in the courts of that Member State.
So the Italians would have to put the case to a court in your country. It is unlikely that any court in your country would accept the use of Brussels I for traffic offences and would almost certainly cite 2005/214/JHA as the proper instrument. Think about it, Brussels I is intended for far more important cases like people arguing about custody of a child or patent infringement or commercial contract breaches worth 100’s of millions of Euros. Compare that with some idiot trying to enforce a 100 Euro traffic fine using the same legislation! Imagine an Italian lawyer sent to the slaughter with a few court orders for 100 Euro traffic fines, stood in the same waiting room as senior barristers whose briefcases are bulging with multi-million Euro lawsuits – get real! What do you imagine the judge would say? It would probably start and end with F!
If you live outside the EU there is absolutely no chance of the existence of any legal agreement for dealing with minor traffic infractions. In either case you could request that the authorities desist in trying extort money from you by quoting untruths, and counter the threats by saying that you will prosecute them in your home country for harassment, attempted extortion and attempting to pervert the course of justice (misrepresentation for US and Canadian residents would also be applicable).
To date the Italian municipalities have never put their case to a court in my country. The only cases brought have been by the companies administering the payment system on the autostrada for non-payment of tolls. These cases were brought as purely civil matters under the Brussels I Regulation and all involve drivers of foreign registered vehicles, not Italian rental cars. Every single case has been rapidly dismissed presumably due to insufficient evidence (a picture of the rear number plate is not enough) and/or inappropriate use of Brussels I. As mentioned above, failing to pay a 20 Euro toll is hardly comparable with the more serious civil cases for which the legislation was intended.
Brussels I could be applied for ZTL and traffic infractions, if they are indeed purely civil offences, and would mean that the Italian municipality would have to document its claim in a court in your home country. The enforcing country has sole jurisdiction in such cases meaning that the standards of evidence required, are those that apply in your country. As a private individual you would not look so stupid trying to get the EMO off your back using any available legislation. So if…
1. These are purely civil matters
2. Your are threatened with prosecution in Italy
3. A court in your country requires better evidence than what is on offer from Italy…
…you could consider putting the case before your own courts. Just writing to the EMO stating that you will take this course of action if they do not take steps to have the fines cancelled is likely to be enough. Alternatively, you could contest the case and ask to be informed of the date of the court hearing in Italy together with how to enter a plea in absentia. That will be the last you hear since the case will never go to court. It’s time consuming and costly, and a judgement by an Italian court for such an offence cannot be enforced outside Italy anyway.
There have also been references made above to changes in EU legislation, due in 2011, which apply to cross-border enforcement of traffic regulations. The proposals can be read here
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/10/642&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en
and relate to facilitating the identification of drivers of foreign registered vehicles and not to the enforcement of court decisions or financial penalties. The intention is to have licensing authorities improve the exchange of information between Member States such that offenders can be identified more quickly. Since most of the contributors to this blog have rented their cars, the proposed changes are of no consequence. Point 8 of this document is the important part that mentions Framework Decision 205/214/JHA as the legal instrument for enforcement. (The one that Italy has not signed).
The current methods employed by the Italian authorities all point in the same direction – it’s about money before it’s about anything else. Consider if you will:
• An region which is badly signposted even, on motorways, and yet full of traffic cameras.
• An institution that sends out fines in the full knowledge that they are invalid.
• Authorities that will not use the available enforcement instruments because they won’t keep the money.
• Authorities that engage foreign debt collection agencies without first obtaining a conviction/court order.
It’s a good recipe for generating a lucrative foreign revenue stream. Check out the Bella-Toscana link if you are in any doubt “Of the 859,959 traffic violations issued by traffic police in 2008, 457,613 were issued to motorists who entered the limited traffic zones without the required permit.” If one assumes that all the ZTL infractions in Florence were issued to foreign tourists at over 100 Euro a pop, while to the contrary also assuming this was the only offence foreigners committed (so no speeding or parking etc.), the revenue stream is worth a whopping 50 million Euros a year, which is a considerable sum of money for a municipality of that size.
If the Italian municipalities wish to enforce road traffic laws across national boundaries, they need only to sign the relevant legislation since the necessary legal instruments already exist. If, however, the name of the game is generating as much revenue as possible from tourists who have already made a considerable contribution to the local economy, the authorities will continue with their current policy. You do not have to play that game. I won’t. I want the cases against me proven in court according to suitable standards of evidence and using the proper legal mechanisms. It is my right (and your’s) and I’m sticking to it, if they want the money, they have to play the game according to the rules. I have substantial photographic evidence to prove my innocence in respect of one of the cases against me – it is unequivocal. However, I do not have the burden of proof. That rests with the prosecution who, in the unlikely event of a court case, will have to provide more convincing evidence than mine several years after the date of the alleged offence.
If the EMO really want to push it with me, I will refer the cases to a court in my country for trial. This will force the Italians to “put up or shut up”. I am in no doubt that they would shut up because the allegations would be quashed through lack of evidence and the extortion racket would be exposed for what it is. As far as I can see, nobody on this blog has yet reported being convicted or even taken to court for a motoring offence in Italy – just threatening letters. Lawyers at my motoring organisation report that other members have received the official notification, then a second notification with an increased amount and threats of court action – that’s it, nothing more.
One further point, several contributors have reported being contacted by debt collection agencies. If there is no conviction, there cannot be any “debt” – merely an allegation with an invitation to make a voluntary payment and thereby admit your guilt. Until a court finds you guilty, you owe absolutely nothing. As such there is nothing to collect so, if pursued by debt collectors, ask for a copy of their mandate (the court order). You have to be aware of the existence of a court order because if you have been tried without your knowledge, your human rights have been breached. You will undoubtedly discover that no such order exists.
Having read all this, if you are unsure as to whether to pay your fine(s), well then you have a choice to make. You can keep the scam going by making a donation to a municipality that you have already spent a good deal of your money in, or you can join me in helping to put a stop to this state-sponsored extortion racket by forcing the Italian government to sign up to existing legislation, improve the signposting and improve the standards of evidence supplied. Then we will all be playing the same game on a level playing field.
All the best
Kemiker
Hi Kemiker,
Thank you for taking the time to write such an informative comment.
Photographic evidence & Privacy in Italy.
Photographs, … are never attached to the fines. They can be viewed on-line or at the police station.
For privacy reasons pictures of the front end of the car can not be taken.
Such pictures are allowed only if taken by laser speed gun and if the traffic offender is pulled up by the police on the spot.
In Italy the only motoring offences which are criminal are:
- Setting up and/or participating in unauthorised motor vehicle races (Art 9, 9bis & 9 ter Highway Code),
- Driving while under the influence of alcohol (Art 186),
(Upwards of 0,8 g/l but the legal limit is 0,5 g/l)
- Driving while under the influence of drugs (Art 187),
- “Hit and Run” – Failure to stop and render aid to injured parties in case of accidents involving personal injury (Art 189).
Yep! The identification of drivers is one thing, mutual recognition and enforcement of traffic offences is another.
What is, in my mind, (also) really shameful and unethical is that foreign traffic offenders are being blatantly lied to by what is in effect Italian Authorities.
Emo, mandated by “countless” Italian Municipalities, and SEPI Pisa deliberately mislead foreign traffic offenders about the 360 day notification time limit.
Since quite a few people “make donations”, the Italian Municipalities are happy enough with the present situation, especially considering that before they didn’t even bother to send fines to foreigners.
Best,
Al (not Alex
Hi Al
What riles me more than anything else is that the EMO appears to have been set up to deliberately circumvent the law (205/214/JHA). The whole point of that legislation is to provide a means for cross border enforcement whilst also preventing countries from ripping off tourists. Couple that together with deliberate misinformation and we have something I can only describe as an extortion racket. Furthermore, on their website, the EMO claim to have been accredited by most foreign embassies, but I remember reading an earlier post by yourself stating that the French consulates in both Rome and Florence correctly inform French citizens about the 360 day rule running from the date of the alleged offence. How can the EMO be accredited by the French when it is pedalling lies? I respect that this blog does not condone non-payment but if it wasn’t because it’s the police and the fine doubles if your complaint is turned down, people just wouldn’t fall for this nonsense. I won’t be paying my fines in the first instance because I will insist om them using the only available legal instrument for cross border enforement – Brussels I.
Anyway, the rugby is about to start (England vs Italy) so I need to plant myself in front of the TV.
All the best
Kemiker
Hi Kemiker / Al
i post again and hope that you an offer up some more wisdom
I have had a reply from SOLVIT at http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/index_en.htm, which concerns me, as it appears that Italy does have enforcement powers over UK residents when it comes to traffic violations in Italy
Here it is:
“Dear Sir/Madam,
Please find below the reply to your enquiry. Please note that the advice given by Your Europe Advice is an independent advice and cannot be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission, of any other EU institution or its staff nor will this advice be binding upon the European Commission, any other EU or national institution.
Dear Mr. M,
Thank you for contacting the “Your Europe” Advice!
If you should decide to ignore any further correspondence with the Italian authorities, this may have as a consequence that the fine for traffic violation received in Italy becomes final. The Italian authorities would thus have a pecuniary (a financial credit) against you, and they may wish to enforce it. On this purpose, they can apply with the Italian judge to issue a sentence of enforcement; the judgment handed down in Italy could be enforced in UK where you live, or where you have your assets, so that to obtain the reimbursement of the credit.
Based on EU legislation there are different modalities to enforce in UK a judicial decision of payment issued in Italy:
1) As an example, at the European Union levels it finds application the European Small Claims Procedure, as established by Regulation (EC) No 861/2007, for cross-border claims of up to €2000: a judgment given under the European Small Claims Procedure in Italy is recognized and enforceable in another Member State (like UK) without the need for a declaration of enforceability and without any possibility of opposing its recognition. See for further details: https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_small_claims-42-EU-en.do?init=true
2) The European enforcement order for uncontested claims, as established by Regulation (EC) No 805/2004 of the European Parliament and the Council.
In order to certify a judicial decision as European enforcement order it is necessary a form: European enforcement order certificate – court settlement, it can be find on the EC website: http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/judicialatlascivil/html/rc_eeo_filling_it_en.htm?countrySession=5&
As soon as this certification is issued, it is sent to the executive authority from the Member state concerned (UK) where the debtor is resident or his goods are located.
The British national legislation will establish the modalities of execution of the European enforcement order. For further details, link: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0805:IT:NOT
3) The recognition and enforcement of the judicial decision based on the Council Regulation (EC) No 44/2001 of 22 December 2000 on jurisdiction and the recognition and enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters: a judgments given in Italy and enforceable there can be enforced in UK after being declared enforceable there on application by anybody who has an interest in the matter (exequatur). The modalities of applying for exequatur in UK are laid down by the British national legislation; anyway, as modalities of enforcement there are: bank account confiscation, or mobile goods confiscation, or immobile goods confiscation etc.
Some personal observations:
●You state that you lodged an appeal against the fine received in Italy for traffic violation; consequently is normal to be summoned by the Italian judge (“”Ufficio del Giudice Di Pace Di Alghero”) to produce your arguments for defence, so that the judge may issue the sentence. Therefore, we do not believe that the “Italian authorities are trying to make your life difficult and expensive”, but it seems to be simply the pursue of the appeal procedure (as you appealed against the traffic violation).
●In your enquiry you haven’t considered also the 4th option: simply to pay the fine; instead of paying a lawyer or travelling to Italy, paying the fine would probably result being the cheapest solution in your case.
●With regard the argumentation that you did not know that there was a restricted area and that no one informed you about that: we believe that, once that you decided to drive a car on the road in Italy, you are supposed to know of the rules governing traffic road there, including traffic signs (the restricted zones are indicated with a specific sign) and you have the responsibility to respect such rules. No other people (like the car hire company or hotel) had such obligation; it’s only the personal driver’s obligation to drive properly and respect the traffic road rules.
We hope this information may be useful to you. Should you need further information, please do not hesitate to contact our Service again!
Best regards,
Your Europe Advice
To submit another enquiry, please visit Your Europe Advice , but do not reply to this e-mail.
Yours sincerely,
Your Europe Advice”
I hope that the above carries no real weight based on some of the info you already have posted on these blogs, but just wondered if i should be concerned
thanks
Scott M
Update on my story – The EMO have stated that I can appeal. My question is… is there any point?
Regarding Kemiker’s comment that people have been successful on a 360 appeal, its a pity more info isn’t available on this.
To appeal or not to appeal… that is the question. What do you think?
The comment of at least doubling the fine if unsuccessful is definitely off putting. Has this happened to anyone?
Paddy,
“What do you think?”
Everything has been said! You’ve read my replies and Kemiker’s comment.
The EMO have stated that you can appeal? On the basis of what? Read again my previous replies.
A fine doubles if you don’t pay (Art. 202) or appeal within 60 days or if your appeal is turned down by the Prefect.
In case of non-payment, it’s true that EMO do not apply the law in their last reminder letter.
I wouldn’t waste any time appealing and I would definitely forget about the EMO!
Al (not Alex)
I am another in the class of foreign tourists who signed for receipt of a final (“Official”) fine notice from EMO more than 360 days after an alleged traffic offense, but less than 360 days after I was identified to the Florence Police by my auto rental agent. I did not respond within 60 days of the official notice (29 May, 2010), so, EMO now demands about $700 US for a E200 violation.
This nightmare began 4 April, 2009, when I was visiting my daughter who was, at that time, studying abroad in Italy. I know from all I have read (special thanks to you on this blog) that EMO is choosing to ignore the law and pretend that the 360 days begins when the police got my address because it serves their financial interest. Therefore, I will never pay this fine. But I would like to join in a class action suit if one can be pulled together so that EMO is forced to stop ignoring the correct interpretation of the law.
Otherwise, there is not much I can add to the conversation, except to note that, on my side of the pond, the interests of EMO are currently being served by a US collection agency called Cedar Financial in Calabasas, California. After many nagging voice messages, I explained to them, in writing, that the claim was not legal because of the 360-day limit on notification, to which they most recently responded by sending me the EMO documents (sans photo), and another bill, tacking on an additional $70 US for good measure, and giving me 30 days to respond, saying:
“Unless you notify this office within 30 days after receiving this notice that you dispute the validity of the debt or any portion thereof, this office will assume this debt is valid. If you notify this office in writing within 30 days after receiving this notice that you dispute the validity of the debt or any portion thereof, this office will obtain verification of the debt or obtain a copy of the judgment and mail you a copy of such judgment or verification. If you request this office in writing within 30 days after receiving this notice, we will provide you with the name and address of the original creditor, if different from the current creditor.
“As required by law, you are hereby notified that a credit report reflecting on your credit record may be submitted to a credit reporting agency if you fail to fulfill the terms of your credit obligations. But we will not submit a negative credit report to credit reporting agency about this credit obligation until the expiration of the time period described above.”
Obviously, I will respond to Cedar Financial in writing, again, that the fine is not legitimate because of the 360 day rule. I will send them some facts I have gleaned from your blog, and the lucid and well-researched write-up from SOSonline (ADUC) to which your blog referred me at the onset. I will follow this post with additional information as my situation moves forward.
PLEASE let me know if a Class Action is initiated. And write me if you have any questions. I will be checking this blog regularly.
Hi Robert,
I hardly know anything about Credit Report in the States except from what little I’ve read on the web. Am I wrong in saying that Cedar Financial would need at least some kind of judgment (court order) to submit a negative credit report to a credit reporting agency?
EMO pitifully resorts to foreign debt collection agencies (Cedar Financial, France Créances, TCM Belgium, …) in a last ditch effort to bully traffic offenders into submission.
Threats, empty threats: “this office will obtain a copy of the judgment, a credit report “may” be submitted to a credit reporting agency”, …
See jd’s August 24, 2010 at 7:45 pm comment and I trust you’ve read Kemiker’s February 5, 2011 at 10:55 am comment.
I’m glad to note that you don’t give in to EMO/Cedar Financial attempted extortion.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Al,
Thank you for the feedback. Yes, Kemiker’s comments were really on point, and your reminder about the collection agency’s need for a judgment really helped me focus my reply to Cedar Fin. Here’s an excerpt or two from my letter, which I will put in the mail tomorrow:
“…in good faith, I shall take this as an opportunity to make perfectly clear again the two important reasons why this debt is not enforceable, and why you should be confident that I will not stand by passively and watch as my class of foreign visitors to Italy continues to be illegally squeezed like lemons by EMO and their agents.
————————
The First Reason
————————
“The evidence you sent in your 2/8 letter shows that I received the “Final Notice” from EMO 419 days after the date of the alleged violation, which is 59 days past the end of the 360 day limit that the Italian Highway Code allows for the Notification of Fines in the special case of foreign residents. Here, in the original Italian, is the explanation, provided by Associazione per i Diritti degli Utenti e Consumatori (ADUC), an Italian consumer protection association, of the statutes that set time limits within which Italian authorities must notify alleged violators of their fines:…
yada, yada, yada…
“…Sentences 1 through 6 only apply to residents of Italy. Sentence 7 stands alone as the single rule that applies for those who reside outside Italy: “they must be notified of the assessed fine within 360 days, calculated unequivocally from the date of the infraction.” The dates on the EMO documents you provided prove that EMO did not adhere to this rule.
—————————-
The Second Reason
—————————-
“Even if EMO did have a legitimate claim in Italy, which I have shown they do not, you possess no court ordered judgment that entitles you to take punitive action against me in this country. If you and EMO want to arrange for a trial on the merits here for the alleged violation, that’s fine. Otherwise, you may not subject me to negative action here based on EMO’s interpretation of Italian law in the matter. In this country, we have strict rules of due process; a guaranteed assumption of innocence until proven guilty; habeas corpus; …”
yada, yada, yada.
Can’t wait to see what happens next. Thank you again for your blog. I hope you understand how very important it is to those of us who value our clean credit rating and our freedom to travel that you are out there in the midst of the enemy providing a beacon of truth and hope…or at least, of shared frustration.
Information (truth) is power.
Robert,
Just to clarify…
- “I received the “Final Notice” from EMO 419 days after the date of the alleged violation…”
For notification purposes, the relevant date is the fine sending date.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
The date on your “Final Notice” is proof enough that the fine was sent after the 360 day time limit expired.
- Art. 201,5 – Italian Highway Code states that there’s no obligation to pay the fine if you haven’t been notified within the set time limit.
Nevertheless the traffic offender must dispute the fine (lodge an appeal).
Naturally, this is rather difficult to do when you’re being lied to by EMO…
- My name is Al, not Alex Roe who runs BlogfromItaly.com and first started this post in 2006.
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page.
Since April 2010 I’ve sort of “hijacked” this specific page of Alex’s blog. I started signing my comments “Al” realizing too late that people would confuse me with Alex.
Thanks for the appreciative comment!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Al (not Alex),
Thanks again…to you and to Alex.
Based on what I’ve read in this blog and elsewhere, it seemed I should not bother to lodge an appeal with the Prefect or with the Justice of the Peace so late in the game. Since I did not figure all this out before my 60-day response window closed last summer, I assumed it would be rejected out of hand…fines would double, and the whole process would begin again. Let me know if you think I should lodge an appeal anyway, and if so, with whom.
-Bob
Hi Robert
I’m delighted to see that you are standing up for your rights in such forceful way. I’m assuming that you are a US citizen and it would be beneficial for you to read a bit about the European Human Rights Convention [EHRC] (there’s a good summary submitted by PabloUK at the top of this blog). You are covered by this legislation when you visit Europe regardless of your nationality, so you have recourse to this legislation for any alleged offences you commit during your visit. It supersedes Italian law and there are a number of important paragraphs relevant to you.
You are completely correct in demanding a copy of the court order. You must have signed for a registered letter informing you of the Florentine Police’s intention to prosecute for such an order to be valid. If you have been tried without your knowledge, your rights in respect of EHRC have been breached. If, as I am certain, there is no court order then there cannot be any debt – merely a claim. If Cedar Financial have bought a debt from EMO then they have been scammed and need to be taught a lesson. From your post “Even if EMO did have a legitimate claim in Italy….” the EMO do not have any claim, they are purely a bureaucratic organisation not a legal entity. It is the Florentine Police that have a claim, a claim which can only be substantiated by a court. It’s the law and it is very similar to the US justice system in that you have the right to a trial – even if you are obviously guilty. In the US even if you are pulled up on the spot, you will be issued with a uniform summons which contains information as to your rights. It’s pretty much the same in Europe – depending on which country you are in you can pay the officer on the spot, or you get a ticket at the roadside or in the post which contains similar info to a uniform summons. The right to a trial or fair hearing is paramount, irrespective of the circumstances, and while it normally bears an increased financial risk, which deters many, it is a fundamental right that cannot be circumvented.
If Cedar Financial persist, you might consider turning the tables and threaten them with court action for harassment, extortion and misrepresentation (defamation too if they mess with your credit rating). You could also ask them to provide you with the relevant passages of the US Constitution, Federal or State Law that allow them to collect money without a court order – even from a US claimant. Would they bug you if I wrote to them claiming you owed me $1000? – I think not even though I could provide the same level of (false) documentation to substantiate my claim – but as with the EMO, no court order. The EMO is a messenger organisation, not a legislative nor judicial body, so nothing they say has any legal standing unless they are passing on the decision of a court. I also think it worth your while to contact the US consulate in Florence (if there is one) or the embassy in Rome and ask them to inform Cedar Financial of the relevant legislation as interpreted by the Italian Constitutional Court. Be sure to warn them that the municipal police and EMO are pedalling bull in the interests of defrauding foreigners and as such cannot be trusted to provide unbiased information. A ditty to the Italian ambassador to the US would also be in its place.
I am considering a class action case on the basis of the misinformation from the EMO but I am not sure in which country to serve the lawsuit. Serving suit in Italy would be a lost cause from the outset so it would have to be somewhere else. It wouldn’t be very clever to serve suit in a country that didn’t allow foreign plaintiffs to use their courts. My country of residence is not my country of nationality so, while it would seem obvious to initiate proceedings here where I live, I haven’t received a reply as to whether a class action could be joined by residents/nationals of other countries which is a prerequisite for a successful outcome.
I wish you every success and please keep posting your progress.
Kemiker
Bob,
You bet! Such an appeal wouldn’t even be taken into consideration!
A fine roughly doubles if you don’t pay or appeal within 60 days or if your appeal is turned down by the Prefect. (In case of non-payment, EMO doesn’t seem to always apply the law).
Al (not Alex)
Thank you for the interesting blog.
Before I get too excited with the likelihood of a successful appeal to the Prefect, can someone please confirm if their appeal, on the basis that they received a fine by registered mail from EMO more than 360 days after the alleged offence but less than 360 days after their details were notified by the rental company, has been successful?
Until this point is confirmed by successful appeals or rejected by the Prefect, then it seems that these discussions around the 360 day rule are largely theoretical.
Hi Matt,
Largely theoretical ? You must be pulling my leg !
Once again, Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) is unequivocal!
The fine must be SENT (not received) by registered mail within 360 days of the alleged offence.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am, August 3, 2010 at 10:19 pm & February 5, 2011 at 9:33 am comments.
If you trust EMO’s “financially motivated interpretation”, then there’s no time limit anymore! They can decide to identify Matt after… 2, 3 years, then all they have to do is just make sure to send him the registered fine less than 360 days after identification. This is not only unreasonable but also unconstitutional.
To my knowledge nobody has ever written to say that they had received a positive or negative response from the Prefect.
When the appeal is successful, do the police really bother to send the Prefect’s decision to the traffic offender? After 360 days without reply the appeal is deemed to be accepted. (Art. 204,1-bis – Prefect’s measures – Italian Highway Code)
If you want to follow the legal procedure, I would encourage you to appeal to the Prefect within 60 days.
If you need any more information (Prefect’s address, …), just ask.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Having tried to read as much as possible and Alex and Al (not Alex)’s studious attempts to make sense of the seemingly absurd. You do unfortunately end up with idiots (Mike) on occasion but on the whole my hats off to everyone who has posted here. The one thing that is missing are the number of successful counterclaim stories against the Italian authorities for what I can only define as common theft, going by the number of reported incidences found on this blog alone, from tourists who come to their country in good will, spend their money, generate vast amounts of money for their economy and then are seemingly used to prop up their economy for further years to come. If there is another country in the EU, let alone the world, that generates such vast sums of residual income off the back of their tourist trade from years gone by then it would be interesting to report here to. So my setting of the stage over and done with, I know refer to my own personal story and I firstly apologise for the length but having started I simply found it difficult to finish.
Whilst I can’t top Max’s hit (Max: October 15, 2007 at 9:05 pm) I do come pretty close – 3 fines in the space of 13 minutes totalling 300,…. 300 EUROS and 3 Cents. Not in Florence but Rome, again trying to find a hotel in Via Firenze – though a different one to another previous poster.
We came into Rome via hire car from Florence. We approached the city via what I presumed to be a normal route then end up on Via Torino with everyone else it seems heading towards the train station which is well signposted and is very close to the Hotel Paris that we are trying to get to. No signs that I or my wife recall with the 2 and 5 year old in the back – things are going smoothly, everyone happy, all went well – or so we thought until today when 3 EMO Notice of Payments arrive through the door (not registered I should add).
So from my study of an overhead street map this is what I can recall and sum up from the notice’s received:
En route to main central train station up a large main road with about 500 other cars.
No.1: 13.28 – 13/4/2010 – Via Torino – Limited Traffic Area Without Authorization – €100.01
I think we miss a junction or can’t take it due to normal sort of Rome traffic conditions. Realise our error as we pass by the station and so have to find a way to come back on ourselves. I think we turn right, again not aware of an issue in our choice of direction.
No.2: 13.33 – 13/4/2010 – Via Venti Settembre – Limited Traffic (as before) – €100.01
Ok. We know where we are. We know where Via Firenze is in relation to us. Down the road 150 metres, no signs but a busy wide road I’ll give it that.
No.3: 13.41 – 13/4/2010 – Via Nazionale – Limited Traffic, blah, blah, blah – €100.01
Turn right into the one way street (Via Firenze) 20 metres in, our hotel is on the right. Wife, kids, bags out. I park up next to some Ministry building I guess where a Carabinieri ‘admires’ my car as I park. He lets me off and gives me 10 minutes to check the family in. Now that’s got to be a first. Didn’t push it, went back to the car within 10 and moved it to a lockup that stacked more cars in it than you could ever imagine possible in such a tight space. Job done. Welcome to Rome. Let’s enjoy our overnight stay.
So, today 332 days or so I calculate after our arrival the offence occurs I these EMO notices. What are my options? These ‘Notice of Payment’ documents with their 20 day payment suggestion which I quote sign off in small print on the back with the line:
“..The present notice is not a Notification of violation and therefore it permits the receiver to make the due payment in amicable circumstances.” – - – Are you kidding me? Is that some sort of Berlusconiesque threat? (… not a quote from said document!)
Seriously though, are these EMO docs in line with the 360 days notification or can I disregard these and go on the hope that should I not receive official docs (e.g. Notification of Violation) through the post in the next 28 days I can state the 360 days has been exceeded and there is no case to answer, or do these now extend the times beyond the impending 360 day deadline. Obviously, my argument will be regarding our hotel visit and its location and I would provide email receipts of the booking where applicable to prove this.
Regardless of the hope or outcome that either one or the other is successful , I would be more than willing to join with others in a raising this as a people’s voice class action against the authorities if anyone has the slightest inclination (legally) of how to best go about this.
I also wonder if others will soon raise other matters relating to April 2010 and driving in Italy. The reason being my own particular one night stay in Rome on this occasion came as a result of us being grounded in Italy because of the Icelandic volcano going off, therefore stopping our flights home to the UK. We therefore took a couple of extra days out to visit some other sights as I’m sure other people did who were also stuck in Italy. Our choice was to go to Rome and help the Roman economy. I wonder who chose to go and help and continues to help the Florence, Pisa, Siena, Milan economies.
Rant over – almost. All in all extremely unhappy about the whole situation and would take the opportunity to join with others to see this plainly criminal practice taken to the highest court possible. If there’s a lawyer out there, surely there is a case to be heard here and WON!!!!!
Alex and Al, you’ve got my vote as to being two of the most helpful people on the net. Well done and thanks for giving mine and other’s cases a soundboard. Let’s hope it can in some way bring about change for the good – even if it is only bloody great big signs that are clear to the reader that if you go this way you will be fined indiscriminately by money grabbing ******s. At least you’ll know then what’s coming – all be it almost a year later.
Thanks for any guidance in advance.
JimD
Hi JimD,
There are still “collateral damages” from the Icelandic Eyjafjallajoekull volcano!
Pffff! Only 3 ZTL violations in 13 minutes? You’re an amateur, Jim!
What about 2 in the space of 1 minute, 3 in the space of 2 minutes, …
Yet another hotel (located right in the heart of Rome’s city centre) which doesn’t warn their guests about ZTL! Your hotel should have inserted your license plate on a “white list” of cars allowed to enter the restricted area.
Thanks for the praise. And for reading as much as possible.
But don’t miss out the important bits: April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
I would:
- Disregard these unofficial notices of payment,
- Wait for the official (registered) notifications of violation.
They will probably be sent (“sent” being the key word here, not “received”) after the 360 day notification time limit expires on April 9 (361st day) .
- Upon reception send an email to EMO providing documentary proof of the booking with a hotel within a ZTL area. Contact hotel Paris, if necessary. EMO should then cancel your fines.
- If not, I would lodge an appeal with the Prefect of Rome within 60 days from the date of receipt of the official notifications.
Even if the 360 day time limit has well and truly run out, you have to appeal if you wish to follow the legal procedure.
Read December 13, 2010 at 6:53 pm, November 10, 2010 at 4:46 pm (appeal template for multiple fines), January 17, 2011 at 10:09 pm comments.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Just An Update from my situation
i sent the appeal letter back to piazza within the 60 days,back in september 2010.I havent heard a word since.No confirmation of a successful appeal,but nor any more letters threatening anything
Bruce
Hi,
Very interesting read, great job you guys are doing here. Although I have to admit I have not been able to read everything in order to find a case similar to mine (undoubtfully exists on this thread, I’m sure). I’m nearing the end of the 60 days period after the mail was sent (received a week or so later) so need to act -or not-.
In a nutshell, I recently received a speeding ticket for Firenze, significantly after the 360 days max period of notification. The amount is well over EUR200, which I find hard to swallow for a 22km/h excess.
The other interesting thing is that, the recorded mail was left in my mail box, while of course (as it seems frequent), I did not sign it, nor someone I would know.
Hence my question: in that case, do I remain silent on the ground of that there is no actual proof that the recorded mail has been handed to me, or do I have to appeal with the Prefect as the fine notification has been sent after the 360 days period?
Many thanks for any guidance you could provide.
James
Hi James,
Well over 200€ ?
Notifying/procedural costs must have really gone up lately!
Read January 24, 2011 at 8:42 pm comment.
To act, or not to act : that is the question.
First and foremost, I would never pay for an invalid fine, sent over 360 days after the date of the offence.
If you “remain silent”, EMO won’t bother to send you another official (recorded) fine. You’ll receive an unofficial “last reminder” letter, then they desist and eventually “entrust” your file to a debt collection agency established in your country of residence.
Read February 5, 2011 at 9:09 am comment.
Even though you have not signed for the recorded mail, you can always send the registered letter of appeal. Thus, you should avoid any further hassles.
If you want to follow the legal procedure you do have to appeal in Italian to the Prefect of Florence within 60 days from the date of receipt of the official notification. (Not a day after)
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included), January 6, 2011 at 5:25 pm comments.
Scroll down through the last comments (since February).
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Is anyone able to suggest what to do when EMO are telling me a date when an official notification was sent but we have not received one so obviously not signed for one. How can you appeal within 60 days when you havent received notification as you don’t know the date? Of course all this has been notified to EMO but they choose to ignore what you say and reply with standard comments. It is well over the 360 day limit from the offence, although EMO are insistant that the 360 days is from the date the Police are given your details.
Thanks
Bob
Hi Bob,
As you rightly point out, it’s rather difficult to appeal in such a case.
No official notification to enclose with your appeal, no date of receipt of said notification, the 60 day time limit must have passed by now.
You’ve got better things to do than waste your energy on EMO.
Just ignore them (and their lies) and disregard any future possible contact from a debt collection agency established in your country of residence.
I trust you’ve read February 5, 2011 at 10:55 am, February 19-25, 2011 comments.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
We got a ;etter today for something we did in june last year. We did the 7/1-14 thing about circulating in a restricted traffic zone (other wise known as the highway
hmm…)
Well I googled the nameon the ticket and found this page http://iltirreno.gelocal.it/pisa/persone/massimo%20bortoluzzi
With an article that said this
The electronic gates are worth a fortune
PISA. Nearly one hundred thousand offenses for having crossed the electronic gates of ztl without permission. The exact figure, produced by Pisamo, is 98,456 violations in the period from January 1 to November 30, 2010, and this corresponds to the coffers of Palazzo Gambacorti to …
Hmmm… Kind of Shady
Hi Al,
I posted on your blog here several times (October 19, 2010; June 3, 2010). I thought that my issue would have been resolved by now, but I just received a phone call from a debt collection agency. Apparently they are claiming that the Italian municipality has contacted them and are claiming I owe over $1,500 in fines!!!
By no means do I want my credit or public records to be affected by this. Are you aware of any debt collection agencies who deal with international municipalities?
Please respond as soon as you can. I’m getting more nervous by the second.
Thanks,
Brandon
Hi Brandon,
I’m beginning to wonder if you read my answers to your posts!
1 – Your issue would have been resolved by now if you had taken the trouble to appeal as I had suggested in my reply to your June 3, 2010 comment.
2 – On October 19th I had warned you that you might be contacted by a debt collection agency.
The Rome municipality hasn’t contacted the debt collection agency, Cedar Financial have “bought” your fines from EMO, a private company.
This is a desperate final attempt from EMO/Cedar Financial to intimidate you into donating your hard-earned money. They’re using the same tactic in France, Belgium, …
READ carefully February 5, 2011 at 10:55 am, February 19-25, 2011 comments.
Remember that your fines were invalid (360 day rule) and that EMO/Cedar Financial have no court order that would entitle them to enforce the payment of your Italian traffic fines or mess with your credit history.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hello
Could anyone to say or suggest what should I to do!?
I went in Sicily last year and rent a car, between 28.05-30.05.2010. 13.04.2011 I got a registered mail where EMO says that I performed a violation – Parked the vehicle without displaying the time ticket. Unfortunately I don`t remember exactly but I beleive that we paid everywhere…
At the same day I sent them a letter where I said that the reg.number of car is not a correct and asked a photo where is visible my violation (at this time I didn`t knew from this site yet), but I didn`t said what is the correct number. There is only one incorrect number but I think that is enough.
15.04 I got an answer from EMO and they said that – “Unfortunately there is no picture available for this king of violation”. Also they asked to send to them the copy of rental agreement which I still have. I haven`t gave any answer to them yet…
I have been in contact with a traffic lawyer in my country but he said that he have any knowledge of international legal regulation and suggested to contact with Estonian Embassy in Rome. No answer from there, yet….
Should I send the copy of rental agreement to EMO or not, can I trust them or do nothing? The laywer said that interstate enforcement procedure doesn`t work yet so the only thing they can to do is collect money via bank but we didn`t gave creditcard, instead of this VISA ELectron which is debetcard.
So, I think that IF I made this violation they should have a photo and absolutely correct number to prove this all and I could to pay also but at the moment this is pure blackmail…!?
Thanks a lot in advance and greetings from Estonia.
Hi Joonas,
Indeed, there’s no picture for a parking violation.
Wrong licence plate number on the fine? Only one incorrect number – this could be considered as a serious factual error but I believe all other details (name, date, time and place of the violation, vehicle make, …) are correct. Right? Your rented vehicle was really parked in that spot at the time.
If so, this could be interpreted as a transcription error – not serious enough to invalidate your fine. How did they track you down with a wrong licence plate number? Presumably because the number was right on the fine sent to the rental agency.
An appeal would have no guarantee of success.
The only result you’ll obtain from sending them a copy of the rental agreement is likely to be an email stating that your fine is valid and requesting payment, or maybe another registered notification with the right licence plate number.
I wouldn’t waste my time writing to EMO.
Even if you had paid the rental agency with a credit card, EMO do not have your credit card details.
Just ignore the fine and the “last reminder letter” you’ll probably receive in a few months.
As your lawyer said “interstate enforcement procedure” doesn’t work yet!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al
Thank You for the answer!
On the site of EMO where is my record I founded two papers (in italian) and as I understand the first one is from Comune di Siracusa Corpo di Polizia Municipale (dated 01.09.2010) to rental company Autonoleggi Seminara and I think it`s a protocol of violation . There is mentioned date, time, place, model and license plate (already wrong one). The second paper is the answer v.v. where Autonoleggi Seminara says to police that this car (the same wrong reg.number) was rented for me, dated 07.09.2010.
The fine is dated 07.04.2011 with the same wrong reg.number.
Btw, in my country always have to be a picture of violation (even for wrong parking).
Unfortunately I do not remember exactly were we there at this time or not but I think it doesn`t matter. If somebody made the protocol for car with reg.number which one is mentioned on protocol (I do not know and do not care does even exist a car with this reg.number or not) and there is not any pictures of violation then all this is crap and how could they make any changes afterwards!? Is this legal action!? Hardly…
This is what I was afraid (that they could just make the changes) and why I posted here…
)
We paid for the car in cash and instead of credit card we gave debetcard (I even do not know why
So probalbly I will not to do nothing.
Finally, I think this all is unfair and ugly – I`m like a criminal but without any evidence and I do not understand how can a state to do something like this, unbelievable….
All the best!
Guys, I used your great service in the past. I am now trying to help a friend who tells me this page is very complicated. and heavy to load questions. Can I suggest that you make a new page which is clearer and only has current info?
Again, thanks for all your help!!!
Hi there! I desperately need some help at the moment. I drove through ZTL zone just this Easter (Sunday and Monday) in Florence unaware of the driving limitations. My hotel is situated in Piazza Reppubblica which is in the ZTL district but because I didn’t know about the restrictions beforehand, I didn’t notify my hotel that I was driving and worst of all, I was lost so I was driving wherever that GPS told me to drive. I have sent my hotel a email asking them to help but the hotel isn’t superb, I worry that my prayers won’t be answered by them. Is there any regulatory or authority I can contact myself to notify them situation and hopefully reduce as many tickets as possible?
Also, this garage in Florence, where I returned my Hertz car, said that it was fine to drive through the city during Easter Sunday and Monday. Does anyone have any insight into this?
I also need to clarify something, my departure date at the hotel was the Tuesday after Easter but I drove my car to return it on Monday. On Monday, I drove it out of the parking/garage to Montevarich for outlet shopping and then drove it back into Florence to have it returned. Would I be able to have Hertz vouch that the car was to be returned to that location, hence, the need to drive it back into the city?
Thanks again,
Veronica
Hi Veronica,
Yep ! The ZTL in Florence is not enforced on Sundays and holidays (Easter Monday).
You didn’t drive your Hertz car in a lane reserved for buses or through a pedestrian zone? 
Best,
Al (not Alex)
I believe I did because the dumb GPS pointed me to those directions. I was so clueless with the road that I didn’t look at the zillion signage on the poles. Is there anything I can do about those fines?
Also, for everyone’s information, this is the reply I got from tghe hotel:
Usually Hotels and garages, after the arrival of the person, put into the Police list , the plate of the car, to cancel the fine : there are 48 hours like time limite.
I believe is Garage Inferno that has done it, because you leave your car there.
I’m sorry but you should ask to the garage Inferno : after 48 hours is not possible for us to put your plate into the list of the Police.
Btw, thanks Al! You have eased half of my concerns which has made my headache hurt a lot less.
Veronica,
And to think that I was kidding!
Why don’t you wait and see if you receive any fines before expecting the worst?
In the meantime, scroll down through the last comments (since February).
Al (not Alex)
Hi Veronica
Since this was recent remember to keep hotel bills, booking details, car rental agreement and credit card statements. At least then you have some proof if you need it.
Kemiker
Hey Al,
Just after a bit of advice. I’m in the UK.
I managed to get 3 violations last May on a hire car – two in Florence on 8th & 11th May 2010 and one in Rome on 15th May 2010. I know this from the Europcar notifications I received last August/September which cost me 108 euros.
This morning 3rd May 2011, the postman knocked on the door saying he had something that needed signing for, including a slip on the envelope. It was all in Italian so I started to explain to him what it was. Top fella that he is, he asked me if I wanted him to take it back to the Post Office and put that he wasn’t able to deliver it. So I didn’t sign it and he’s done just that. Presumably in a few weeks it’ll end up back in Italy with an ‘unable to deliver’ sticker on it.
My main question is, can they go to Europcar and bill them, who then would presumably put the charges on my credit card? In which case I could close my credit card or get a new card number (by claiming I’ve lost it?)
Is this the best approach? My wife and I will be leaving our address, and indeed the Country in August to permanently relocate the the USA (if this makes any difference?)
Thanks in advance for any advice.
James
Hi “elusive” James,
The best approach is … to do nothing!
You are nowhere to be found and Europcar will not put the fines on your credit card.
No need to cancel your credit card.
You might receive a “last reminder” letter before you relocate to the USA.
Read my September 24, 2010 at 6:55 pm comment.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Alex and Al
While reading through the ADUC interpretation of the time limits for notification I stumbled upon another useful piece of information. There must be a distance of at least 1 km between a speed limit sign and a speed camera. This was part of the August 2010 revision. I would imagine that since this is a relatively recent update, that a lot of signs and cameras have not yet been repositioned to comply with the new law. So anybody who has received a speeding fine should check the proximity of the speed limit signs relative to the camera. In my instance the distance between the exiting town sign (90km/h) and the camera is just 200m with no signs in between. The police claim that the speed limit was 50 km/h at the camera but even if there had been a 50 km/h sign after the 90 km/h sign, the position of the camera is illegal.
DISTANZA MINIMA DAL SEGNALE DEL LIMITE DI VELOCITA’
L’ultima riforma al codice della strada (legge 120/2010 art.25) ha previsto che gli apparecchi a funzionalita’ automatica debbano essere installati -fuori dai centri abitati- ad almeno un km dal cartello che impone il limite di velocita’.
http://sosonline.aduc.it/scheda/autovelox+amp+co+guida_16230.php
I’ll post again soon with a few questions for you. My cases are beginning to hot up and I need a little bit of clarification if you would be so kind.
All the best
Kemiker
Hi
Traffic fines in Italy?! How to deal with them? Please read my experinces! My advise: PAY, THEN STAY AWAY – AND WARN YOUR FRIENDS!
Two years ago we were staying at a hotel in central Florenze (Firenze!) Rented a car for three days to see things in Toscana. BUT! Getting back to this central hotel was extremely difficult. One-way-streets everywhere. And without realizing it we were caught several times in phototraps close to the hotel. A little more than a year later: 8 fines – 109 euros each. Kind regards from Polizia Municipale di Firenze! No less than two appeals from us to Polizia Municipale di Firenze – posted as registered mail. Why two (identical) appeals?? Well, we had heard various things about Italian efficiency…And what do you think happened? No response to these appeals!!!! I’ve written to the “front-office” of the Polizia several times asking: “What became of our appeals?” No answer to these inquiries! But we were told that now it was too late to appeal anyway!!! Our appeals were posted well within the deadline. Then they disappeared! And then the answer: Now it is too late anyway! What a disgrace! Some months passed – perhaps they could see the farce in this procedure after all? But NO! They have just Doubled the 8 fines! In all we now have to pay just under 2000 eurosl! Pay NOW or face a trial – held in ItalyI If you lose (and you will LOSE!), you will have to pay for lawyers, trial etc. AND the Italian court will (and can!) make a court in your own EU-country contact you and force you to pay!! And I assure you: YOU WILL PAY!Forget appealing – I wrote two posted appeals mailed as registered post. Again and again I have asked Polizia Municipale di Firenze what became of these appeals. NO explanation. No response in that context! Now I have paid the doubled fines (close to 2000 EUROS). The alternative? A fair trial in Italy?! Well, what do you think!? No, we shall have to PAY, STAY AWAY – AND WARN ALL OUR FRIENDS!! I suggest you do the same. Gert, Denmark
Hej Gert
Unfortunately you have swallowed the bait. An Italian court cannot repeat cannot ask a Danish court to enforce the fine because they have not signed the legislation (read my posts in February 2011). That is a blatant lie. French and German courts can but often don’t bother. I have discussed this with FDM and neither the EMO or an Italian court has ever tried to enforce fines through the Danish courts – because they know they can’t. I would be very interested in any communication that you have had with both the EMO and Florentine police. I would like to add it to my letters to the Italian ambassador to Denmark and various embassies and consulates in Italy. I will be asking various people to comment on the legality of the whole process of Italy trying to enforce fines across borders in the manner that they are. If you have been lied to about your rights to a legal remedy then this would be a blatant and outrageous breach of human rights legislation. If you have it in writing it would be a huge boost to the evidential material for a class action lawsuit that I am trying to put together. If I can get this suit off the ground I hope many of the contributors to this blog will join it. If we win you will get your money back. Can I contact Alex Roe and get your email?
Best
Kemiker
Hi again Gert,
This is twice you’ve left almost the same comment on blogfromitaly.com.
As I’ve already told you, if those 8 fines were sent more than 360 days after, they were invalid.
Were your appeals written in Italian? What were the grounds for your appeal? Who sent you the letter informing you that your fines are doubled?
Anyway, now that you’ve paid ……. the Florence municipality must be very grateful for your donation.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al and Alex
As mentioned above I could use a little clarification about a few details.
Firstly regarding the response time for an appeal to the prefect, when reading through the advocate general’s decision in case C224/00 there is a narrative of Italian traffic law in which it is mentioned that the response must be issued within 180 days (after examining the evidence). In your post from 29 April 2010 above Al you mention:
“The Prefect must come to a decision within 210 days, and then has another 150 to send you his response.
Don’t expect an answer from the Prefect! You might never get one!”
Are these response times mentioned in the law? The judgement is from 2002 so maybe some things have changed. The relevant part of the judgement is here:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?pos=2&hwords=C-224%2F00%7E&page=2&lang=en&pgs=10&nbl=13&list=264059:cs,250793:cs,246392:cs,&checktexte=checkbox&visu=#texte
. Article 204 governs the measures to be taken by the Prefect:
1. If, after examining the police report and the files submitted by the investigating office or the investigating station, the appeal and accompanying documents, and after hearing the person who has applied for the appeal, the Prefect considers that the finding that an offence has been committed is well founded, he shall issue, within 180 days, a reasoned order requiring the payment of a fixed sum, in accordance with criteria laid down in Article 195(2), which shall not be less than twice the minimum prescribed by law. The order imposing the administrative pecuniary penalty shall include the costs and shall be notified to the offender and other persons liable for payment according to the provisions of this title. Where, however, the Prefect does not consider the findings to be well founded, he shall, within the same period, issue a reasoned order as to the discontinuance of the proceedings, and convey the complete order to the office or station of the investigating officer, who shall inform the appellants of it.
Note it is a legal requirement that a response is given even in the event of a successful appeal.
Also I think it is worth reading paragraph 56 onwards. Just substitute “offenders with a vehicle registered abroad” with “foreign motorists” and this judgement can equally be applied to the appeals process for people who have rented an Italian registered vehicle. Access to a legal remedy is restricted by requiring an appeal in Italian and pressure exerted by threats of doubling the fine for unsuccessful appeals
My second query is regarding the decision of the constitutional court. When I put the part of the decision about foreigners into Google translate I get this:
“while living abroad for the legislature set a deadline for notification is absolutely unbeatable, is also determined to a large extent (more than twice the one for Italian citizens), for the latter instead of one hundred and fifty days the term is done as as soon as the actual offender or other individuals involved were subsequently identified”
It seems to suggest that the time limit runs from the date of identification. Is there something out of context here? Or is the translation just crap?
My third query regards that statute of limitations for these offences. From Al’s post of 23 April 2010:
“The Italian authorities have five years (Art. 209-Italian Highway Code) to collect fines from the date of the infraction.”
There was another blogster in 2008, Arturo http://my.lifeinitaly.com/threads/1921-Traffic-Violations/page2 who worked at the Italian consulate and had to send on these fines to people. He mentioned a change in the law that reduced the statute of limitations for motoring offences to just 2 years. Did this never actually happen?
I know this is a bit long-winded but I just want to clear some of these things up. I haven’t found an English translation of the law and Google doesn’t produce anything intelligible.
One final point, further to my post above, the August update to the law states that traffic enforcement cameras must be visible. This is another reason to check Google streetview. On the autostrada between Bologne and Rome I noticed several cameras located at the exit of a tunnel or behind a bridge, ie. not visible to an approaching motorist and so not legally placed.
That’s it for now.
Best
Kemiker
Hi Kemiker,
FIRST QUERY
You should have read also my September 10, 2010 at 8:42 pm comment.
http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-28991
Yes Kemiker, these response times are mentioned in the law.
Appeal sent “directly” to the Prefect
(Art. 203,1-bis – Appeal to the Prefect – Italian Highway Code)
–>30 days to send the appeal and accompanying documents to the “competent police station”.
(Art. 203,1-bis)
–>60 days for the police to investigate and send the file back to the Prefect.
(Art. 203,2)
–>120 days for the Prefect to “make up his mind” and issue the order imposing the administrative pecuniary penalty or the order as to the discontinuance of the proceedings.
(Art. 204,1 – Prefect’s measures – Italian Highway Code)
–> 30 + 60 + 120 = 210 days.
Appeal sent to the Prefect “through” the “competent police station”
(Art. 203,1 – Appeal to the Prefect – Italian Highway Code)
–> 60 + 120 = 180 days.
These terms are mandatory and cumulative for the adoption of the order in a timely fashion.
Once these terms (210/180) are expired and the order has still not been issued, the appeal is deemed to be accepted.
(Art. 204,1-bis – Prefect’s measures – Italian Highway Code)
The order imposing the administrative pecuniary penalty must be notified (sent from Italy) within 150 days after its adoption.
(Art. 204,2)
Yes, “it is a legal requirement that a response is given even in the event of a successful appeal” (Art. 204,1) but do the police really bother? It would be interesting to know the numbers…….
Regarding paragraph 56 onwards, I’m not sure that I’m following you.
EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00 deals with offenders (with a vehicle registered abroad – Art 207) of the Italian highway code who are pulled up by the police “on the spot”.
Italy has complied to judgement of EC with Law 3 February 2003, n. 14.
Appeal in Italy –> Appeal in Italian
Appeal in Denmark –> Appeal in Danish
If you lodge an unsuccessful appeal with the Prefect you’ll be ordered to pay double the fine whether you’re Italian, foreign, at the wheel of a vehicle registered abroad or with Italian plates.
SECOND QUERY
The translation is crap!
Hopefully mine is a little better.
WHILE for residents abroad the legislator sets an absolutely insuperable notifying time limit, although determining it in an ample manner (more than twice the one for Italian citizens), for the latter (Italian citizens) ON THE CONTRARY the 150 day time limit starts from the moment the actual offender or the other individuals liable are subsequently identified.
Read February 5, 2011 at 9:33 am comment.
You have some nerve, attempting to suggest your own interpretation using Google translate!
THIRD QUERY
That’s right! 5 years!
Beware! This time limit can be interrupted by any official act relevant to the fine!
There was a little confusion, a while back, in Italy about the time limit for Italian authorities to collect fines. Many Italians were led to think by newspaper articles that Italian authorities had two years to collect fines.
The time limit for collecting fines is provided for in Art. 209 CDS.
Art. 209. Prescrizione. Codice della strada
La prescrizione del diritto a riscuotere le somme dovute a titolo di sanzioni amministrative pecuniarie per violazioni previste dal presente codice è regolata dall’art. 28 della legge 24 novembre 1981, n. 689.
Legge 24 novembre 1981, n. 689.
Art. 28 Prescrizione
Il diritto a riscuotere le somme dovute per le violazioni indicate dalla presente legge si prescrive nel termine di cinque anni dal giorno in cui è stata commessa la violazione.
L’interruzione della prescrizione è regolata dalle norme del codice civile.
Google translate is “intelligible”!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
P.S./ Long-winded? Absolutely not!
Hi Al
You’re a diamond. Thanks for the clarifications and I don’t mean to insult you by using Google translate to make my own interpretations. I just need to be sure, to be sure because of who I will be making representations to – I don’t want look like an idiot and I want my facts to be in order.
Case 224/00 was about discrimination on the basis of nationality and the proportionality of the discrimination, ie was it objective. Yes it did centre around a particular article of the codice della strada but that was purely because the individual concerned had a vehicle registered abroad, was prosecuted under that article and took exception to being treated in a discriminatory manner as compared to an Italian. The principle applies to all non-Italian renters of hire cars because the rental company will supply the name and address of the contract holder. Whether the driver is Italian or foreign, both are equally identifiabIe so the objective case for a notification time of 360 days for a foreign national compared to a much shorter time for an Italian is very weak and almost certainly disproportionate. It is court desicions such as this that make up case law and ultimately case law becomes a more powerful instrument than the literal written law because it deals with all the grey areas and permutations and combinations.. Previous judgements are discussed in the advocate general’s decision together with why certain aspects of those judgements do/do not apply to the current case. It is clear that the court takes a very dim view of any attempts to covertly circumvent the law (for our purposes this would be selling unpaid fines as debts to debt collection agencies). It is equally clear that the court will not accept any attempt to dissuade foreign nationals from seeking a legal remedy (for our purposes insisting on appeals being submitted in Italian, which is beyond the ability of most tourists, while at the same time threatening to double the fine). This blog is a testament to the fact that people panic and pay. Your appeal letter is a fantastic help to the people who reach this blog, but there are still less than 1000 comments over the last few years and we know that more than half a million fines are sent out to foreigners every year, so even this help only reaches a small fraction of those who need access to legal help.
“Appeal in Italy –> Appeal in Italian
Appeal in Denmark –> Appeal in Danish”
No. For cross border enforcement other languages are accepted. Even for me, as a permanent resident, I have been able to file appeals in English. The Danes are interested in the rule of law more than the money. Fines for minor offences are less than EUR70 and admin charges are less than EUR2, so much less than Italy and this is a very expensive country. Despite having signed the framework decision along with France and Germany minor offences are not prosecuted across national boundaries. It needs to be serious before they bother. This approach further strengthens the notion that the Italian municipal police are only interested in the revenue stream – nobody else bothers with minor stuff where a foreigner hasn’t obviously abused the law – like doing 200 km/h on the motorway.
I have another query for you about the debt collection agencies. Your post from April 23 2010:
“Even collection agencies (debt collectors) duly established in your country of residence can not collect fines on behalf of Italian municipalities. Milan tried (and failed) to do that in Switzerland last year.
There has to be an agreement in force between Italy and your State of residence.”
Have you got any links or further info. There is also something about Belgium and another EU country not accepting these claims from debt collectors. My point is that in my representations to ambassadors and foreign ministers I want to be able to show that courts do not accept this as legal practice, ie non-Italian courts view the selling of unpaid fines as debts as being attempted circumvention of the framework decision on the mutual recognition of financial penalties.
Hi Kemiker,
“the objective case for a notification time of 360 days for a foreign national (Foreign Resident) compared to a much shorter time for an Italian is very weak and almost certainly disproportionate.”
I fully agree with you!
This is what I had written to Alex Roe, back in April 2010:
“Although now that we have Eucaris (https://www.eucaris.net/index.php) it can be argued that the Italian police are able to identify European Union residents faster than Italian residents through their own Motorizzazione (DLVA).
Read also my August 5, 2010 at 11:33 am comment.
In case of a rented car (with Italian plates) the police must send the fine within 90 days (from the date of the traffic violation) to the rental agency, which must then send back the details of the holder of the rental agreement within 60 days (required by law).
If the rental agency doesn’t comply, they could end up paying the fine.
Naturally, the police don’t know if the traffic offender is an Italian or foreign resident.
So, if that first fine (to the rental agency) hasn’t been sent within 90 days, the traffic offender (IF Italian resident) could ultimately lodge an appeal based on the fact that the rental agency was notified belatedly.
Read February 5, 2011 at 9:33 am comment.
Case 224/00 did centre around Art 207, which was subsequently modified.
If pulled up by the police, Italian residents may pay the “reduced fine” (or lodge an appeal) within 60 days.
EU residents (+ Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway / EEA – European economic area):
- Can pay that “reduced fine” “on the spot” and forget about the whole thing,
- OR pay the “reduced fine”, by way of security, thus preserving his right to appeal if he wishes so.
Before Case 224/00 an EU resident had to pay roughly double the minimum amount by way of security.
EU residents could be handled in the same way as Italian residents:
- Notification time of 90 days if there are no particular problems to identify the offender,
- In case of a rented car: 90 days + “x” days (depending on when the police receive the offender’s details from the rental agency, but max. 60 days) + an other 90 days to send the fine to the EU resident.
The offence notification is sent to the offender in the official language of his State of residence.
But the appeal? It seems unrealistic to think that one could file an appeal in a different language! Can I present an appeal in Italian in Denmark?
These claims (for the benefit of a foreign state) from debt collectors clash with the right of every individual to be heard by an impartial and independent tribunal, so that in the absence of a final conviction by a court before which the offender has been cited regularly, no one can replace a judge.
Al (not Alex)
Hello,
I was visiting Rome last year in June and rented a Vespa. Yesterday I received 3 violation tickets from Rome. All of the tickets stated “Circulating on bus lane” which I assume means we drove on a bus lane. Two of the tickets are 20 mins apart and the other is later in the night, all on the same day, each one is for 99 Euros. What can I do to fight these tickets? I was unaware of the driving lane laws in Rome and there were no signs in English stating there were bus lanes I couldnt drive in. Also, it seems these tickets were automated from a traffic camera, because I never received a paper ticket from an officer on the date of the offenses. How do I know this isn’t fabricated or even incorrect? HELP PLEASE!!
Hi Glen,
The tickets you received point to a website (EMO Nivi) where you can see pictures of the Vespa’s license plate.
From reading your post, I gather that you’ve just received 3 informal notices (“Notices of payment before notification”) sent via normal post by the collection agency EMO (Nivi) which is mandated by the Rome authorities to notify fines to foreigners.
Please read carefully the information at the top of this page, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584) and scroll down through the comments since May 2010.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Just received the ‘amicable’ letter regarding speeding near Arezzo. Haven’t received the registered letter yet but no doubt will do so. The offence took place (speed camera) on 03.08.2010 but it looks as if the 360 days will not be up by the time we do receive it (within the next 20 days.)
It looks like there will be no point in appealing as everthing will have been done in the prescribed time limits but we are staggered at the amount of the fine which is 240.58 euros! We were 23 khm over the limit.
I have checked on the EMO website to see if we can pay it in instalments but the answer os NO! What if we can’t afford to pay it all in one go?
Any advise would be welcome.
Paul
Hi Paul,
You won’t receive the registered letter within the next 20 days, but it will, in all likelihood, be sent before the 360 days are up on July 30, 2011.
For notification purposes, the relevant date is the fine sending date.
Art. 142,8 – Italian Highway Code, speeding by more than 10km/h up to 40km/h over the limit: –> Fine: from 159 to 639€ and 3 points deducted on the driver’s driving license.
Read January 24, 2011 at 8:42 pm comment.
http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-29876
Notifying/procedural costs seem really steep to me! Over 80€!? Usually roughly 30-35€.
If that’s right, how can EMO justify that?
Read May 3, 2011 at 8:46 pm comment.
http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30749
Since August 2010 Italian residents can pay their traffic fines in instalments – Art. 202-bis.
If the amount of the fine is over €200 and the taxable income is inferior to € 10.628,16, one can submit a request to the Prefect, the Mayor……… within 30 days from the date of notification of offence………… The right to appeal is waived……….
You could try and demand to pay in instalments, that is if you really wish to pay the fine.
Scroll down through the comments since February 2011.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Paul
Please check the position of the speed camera and relevant signposting on Google Streetview. If you can’t do it yourself, give me the name of the road and the distance marker and I’ll do it for you. If you had a rental car ask for a copy of the verbale they received from the police – the required info is on that. If you were in your own car, ask the EMO for the documentation. There must be at least 1 km from a sign indicating a change of speed limit to the camera. The camera must also be visible to oncoming motorists. If you have been caught on the A1 southbound at km 364,55 near Arezzo (like me), that camera is placed behind a bridge so it cannot be seen – which is illegal so you can appeal on that basis.
Best
Kemiker
Can not believe that they can send these out eleven months after the offence
its a rip off at 110 euros for what is basically a tourist error.
Mine arrived today the offence took place on 09/06/2010 and today’s date is 18/05/2011
I did not sign for this so technically have not received it So am i right in thinking if i wait another two weeks and hear nothing its past the 360 day time limit.
Hi Aaron,
Once again, for notification purposes, the relevant date is the fine sending date!
EMO won’t bother to send you another official (recorded) fine. You’ll receive an unofficial “last reminder” letter, then they desist and eventually “entrust” your file to a debt collection agency established in your country of residence.
Read February 4, 2011 at 6:46 pm, February 5, 2011 at 9:09 am, and February 5, 2011 at 11:20 am comments.
http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30012
At this time, you haven’t been formally notified!
I would disregard any unofficial “last reminder” letter you may receive and any future possible contact from a debt collection agency.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
I received one of these notifications of infractions in July of 2010 for an infraction that occurred October 3, 2009 (while I was on my honeymoon in Italy). It was not official, I didn’t sign for anything, etc. I recently (March 10, 2011) received a second notice that It was not possible to appeal the infraction and to pay immediately. Again, I never signed for anything. It is also well past the 360 day time period. Do I have to pay and what should I do next? Thank you!
Hi chandra,
Was that July 2010 notification headed “Notice of payment before notification”, “Violation of the Highway Code Notice”, …?
Where did you commit the traffic violation?
Who sent you that second “fishy” notice? A debt collection agency?
Anyway, I know what I would do!
Keep on doing what you’ve been doing until now!
Scroll down through the comments since May 2010.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Jady,
RE your comment http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30952.
“Any ideas on why, after paying 60 EU through Hertz, I’m now receiving additional charges?”
This page on “Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy” is too long, but if you had read a little more, you would have discovered that the two notices from Hertz were for ‘administration fees’ and not the actual fines.
An “admin fee” following a request from the Italian police to obtain the personal data of the car renter who committed the traffic violation.
When you signed the rental contract you agreed to pay for this admin charge.
The two “Notice of Payment letters” you received from EMO (Nivi) are “unofficial fines” sent via normal post by the agency EMO (Nivi), which is mandated by an ever increasing number of Italian Municipalities to notify fines to foreigners.
You’ll receive over the next few weeks the formal notifications, the official “Violation of the Highway Code notices” sent via registered mail.
Read:
- April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (appeal template) comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584),
- February 20, 2011 at 10:36 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30127),
and (if possible) scroll down through the comments since May 2010.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
Firstly thanks so much for all the information. I visited Italy in Sept 2010 with my fianace, and since returning I have recieved two fines. The first was in Jan, by unrecorded post, a fine of 105 euros, the offence being ‘moved around carriageways’. This I ignored as it was not recorded and therefore no proff that I had recieved it. I have now recieved a second, this time recorded and for a different offence, speeding, 180 euros, however the letter looks completley different from the first, much more officiall. Firstly I am not sure if it is real? is it a scam? or is it that it is from a diffrent provience? Secondly the date of the letter is 18/04/2011, and I only recieved it today and with the 60 days to pay up or appeall having started from the date of the letter, therefore not much time to respond.
The biggest question for me thou is, if I do try to appeal, ie, ask for proff of offense, that the camera is calibrated etc, how do I know if they decide not to persue the fine? Also if nothing comes of it for 5 years, is it true I would be able to enter Italy with no problems?
Thanks AL
Hi Phil,
You don’t mention where you committed those two different traffic violations.
The first fine – driving on a lane reserved for buses – is an unofficial notice, (“Notice of payment before notification”) sent via normal post by EMO (Nivi).
EMO is a collection agency officially mandated by a large number of Italian municipalities to notify fines to foreigners.
They should have already sent you the official (recorded) notification!?
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
The second (official) fine is for Art. 142,8 – Italian Highway Code, speeding by more than 10km/h up to 40km/h over the limit: –> Fine: from 159 to 639€.
(180€ = minimum amount + notifying/procedural costs).
I imagine it was sent by a different entity.
That notification must mention the appeal Authorities (Prefect or Justice of the Peace) and must point you to a website where you can see a picture of the back of your car and the license plate. Is this not the case?
An appeal which is not written in Italian wouldn’t be taken into consideration. (As if you had never appealed).
The 60 day appeal (or pay up) period starts from the day of receipt of the recorded fine.
Did you sign for that recorded fine?
Is this second fine even written in the language of your country of residence?
The 5-year statute of limitations from the date of the offence is interrupted by any official act relevant to the fine. With regard to your second fine the 5 years run from April 2011.
But you could come back to Italy tomorrow.
As far as I know there’s no “traffic offender national register” and you won’t be arrested at customs and forced to pay the outstanding fines.
Scroll down through the last comments (since February).
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
The first offense was commited in ‘Via Senese’ and the letter which is much briefer than the second is as you say from EMO, Comune Di Frienze. This was the first letter I recieved regarding any fines apart from a notification from the rental company that they taking money from my credit card account to pass the drivers information on.
With regards to the second letter, the offense was commited in the ‘Provincia Di Pisa’, and the information given is pretty detailed, however no link to a website for the photograph, and the road it was commited on is imposible to find on google. it is ‘S.G.C FI-PI-LI (Comune di Pisa) altezza Km 72+850 direz’, whatever that all means.
I keep questioning whether to pay it or not, I really dont have the money but cant help worrying if I dont pay it who will come knocking on my door? Also what other fines will be coming through the post?
Tell you something Al, it really puts you off going anywhere these days. It seems all the EU countries are out to stiff the British. Coming back from Greece last year on the train they got me at the airport, on the spot fine, apparently the last two stops on the train you need another ticket?. Sorry to rant just gets my back up.
Thanks for all your help Al.
Phil
Hi Phil
It’s is the main road between FIrenze-PIsa-LIvorno (Strada Grande Comunicazione) on the south side of the River Arno. If my memory serves the speed limit is 90 kmh most of the way along it. The camera is placed at 72km+850m, just before you reach Pisa on the westbound carriageway. The exact position is 43°41’32.08″N 10°25’19.40″E. The last speed limit sign before the camera is placed at 71km+780m and indicates 90kmh. So it’s probably a fair cop I’m afraid (unless they are claiming a lower speed limit). The camera on Via Senese is at the intersection with Via del Gelsomino and I got caught on that one too with vehicles in front of me and behind. Makes it impossible to see the signs or stop to turn around.
Unfortunately it doesn’t look like you have grounds for appeal, so now it’s just a question of whether you want to pay or not.
Best
Kemiker
Darn! Just read Kemiker’s reply!
Never mind! Below my comment, just as I had written it!
Hi Phil,
First offence:
http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30749
As I said, I’m a little surprised that you haven’t yet received the official notification. EMO usually sends the recorded fine a few weeks/months after the unofficial notice.
Read James’ May 3, 2011 at 8:46 pm comment.
Second offence:
S.G.C. FI-PI-LI means “strada di grande comunicazione Firenze-Pisa-Livorno”, the “superstrada” between these cities.
Km 72+850 is… here:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=fr&geocode=&q=pisa&aq=&sll=43.707594,8.349609&sspn=2.656406,8.421021&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Pise,+Toscane,+Italie&ll=43.692141,10.422306&spn=0,0.526314&z=12&layer=c&cbll=43.692141,10.422306&panoid=mjVSKezGKttQQeko5SjVYw&cbp=12,293.85,,1,1.12
The road sign, just in front of the radar, says “Provincial Police – Fixed radar speed station”.
Also for reader Kemiker
Km 72+850 –> Visible speed camera
Km 72+450 –> Speed control sign (> 250m)
Km 71+770 –> 90km/h speed limit sign (> 1km)
Link to all fixed radar speed stations on S.G.C. FI-PI-LI, “yours” is n°5 (nearest to Pisa). http://sanzionistrada.provincia.fi.it/Pisa/document/mappa_autovelox.pdf
It beats me why the Pisa Province doesn’t mention on the fine the following website (only in Italian) where you can access your fine information and photo. http://sanzionistrada.provincia.fi.it/Pisa/consultaVerbali.htm
Numero verbale –> Fine number (without the letter & “/2010”)
Targa veicolo –> Licence plate
Data infrazione –>Traffic violation date
Inserisci il testo di controllo –> Type the security word
http://sanzionistrada.provincia.fi.it/Pisa/document/GuidaRicercaVerbali.pdf
Many EU municipalities are out to stiff everybody (not only the British).
Traffic fines are just a means to get the revenue they badly need.
Read:
- February 5, 2011 at 9:09 am (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30018)
- February 5, 2011 at 10:55 am (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30020).
Al (not Alex)
P.S./ I… will come knocking on your door! And I’ll expect a beer (or two)!
Please note that more or less all comments left before 2010 have now been removed.
Why? – They were out of date.
If you really do need to read the older comments, they are available in a .pdf file. If you would like a copy, just ask via this site’s contact system.
Thanks for reading. And, as always, many thanks to Al for kindly helping out everyone too. Thanks Al.
Best,
Alex Roe – Italy Chronicles publisher
Just returned from driving all over the country and think I will be receiving notices of speeding on the autostrada? What seems to be important is to not sign for anything in the mail, pay the admin costs to the rental company–Maggiore, wait for the credit agency in USA to start hassling me and tell them they have no claim and never return to Italy:( If it is only a few tickets and up to a thousand dollars I think I could handle that but now I think there are a hundred signs therefore I could get a hundred tickets?).I think i was driving about 150Kmh and as you know that was not the fastest on the road. Any idea of what to lookk for in the future?
Hi Mike,
Anticipating a hundred tickets ? I wouldn’t sleep at night!
Point 8 – Maggiore rental Terms & Conditions: “During the rental period, the Client is responsible for any traffic fines… The cost of management of each related administrative duty is listed in the Maggiore Car Rental Rate List and the Client hereby authorizes to be charged for them”. Fee on administration file (traffic fines, …) Euro 36,00.
Read June 8, 2011 at 11:44 pm comment.
Read May 3, 2011 at 8:46 pm comment.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thanks–I think I will wait for the “unoffial” notice and see what it says-then I will contact you—hopefully they won’t do anything. I thought I read somewhere that the speeding fine was 35 euros for up to 147 Kmh ( 130+10+5%)–true-or 180 minimum?
Depending on who sends you the fine, you won’t receive any unofficial notices.
Only EMO (Nivi – collection agency officially mandated by a large number of Italian municipalities to notify fines to foreigners) sends an unofficial notice a few weeks/months before the official (recorded) notification.
Italian Highway Code
Art. 142,7 – Fine: from 39 to 159€.
Art. 142,8 – > 10km/h up to 40km/h –> Fine: from 159 to 639€.
–> Minimum amount + notifying/procedural costs = 180-200€.
Art. 142,9 – Fine: from 500 to 2000€.
Hi Alex,
I quick question… Recently I received a letter from Venezia Polizia asking to pay a fine within 60 days for a violation back in 2009 “Entering Limited Traffic Zone”. Now, I was lazy and waited for little longer than 60 days, maybe 3-4 months, but eventually paid it. The problem is that I have been trying to get the confirmation from the Polizia via email that the fine has been paid and I am all set, but they have ignored all of my emails so far and all I have is the credit card statement to confirm the payment. I am planning on going to Italy again this summer and wondering if this could be a problem for me at the airport or elsewhere….? Also, I haven’t received anything from the rental company HERTZ and wondering if maybe they were unable to charge my CC for some reason i.e. insufficient funds, expired card or similar… Of course HERTZ in the US has no answers for me…
I am interested to know what are your thoughts about this….? or anybody else for that matter.
Thanks,
-sj
Hi SJ,
That fine, sent over 360 days after the date of the traffic violation, was invalid.
See April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
I really wouldn’t bother trying to get that confirmation!
The police are “thrilled” with your late payment and have long forgotten about your fine.
Absolutely no problem at the airport or anywhere else.
Are you saying that Hertz haven’t charged your CC for the admin fee (for ratting you out to the police)? Maybe they had better things to do or just simply forgot about it?
Again, I wouldn’t inquire. If they really had tried to charge your CC, I’m sure you would know about it by now.
Enjoy your holidays in Italy and beware of Limited traffic Zones!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
sorry, this has been problably answered so many times, however I’m confused.
Just received a leeter saying I am being Fined 100euros for a traffic violation (driving in a bus lane in Rome)
The date of infraction is 2009-12-03, however the date of ascertainment is 2011-01-21, so in short, over 360 days from infraction, but only 180days since ascertainment.
Did anyone manage to do this letter to send back to the fine company querying the fine?
Many thanks
Jon
Hi Jon,
Yep! Answered soooooo many times!
Traffic violation in Rome –> The letter was sent by EMO (Nivi).
Is this letter a “Notice of payment before notification” or the “Official Notification” (Notification of Violation of the Highway Code) sent via registered mail?
Only the latter mentions that you can appeal to the Prefect or the Justice of the Peace within 60 days.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
What do you mean by “the date of ascertainment is 2011-01-21”?
–> Where does this date come from?
The 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the infraction to the date the official notification is sent.
(See date on the fine or the date on the time stamp on the envelope).
Always the sending date for notification purposes!
Read December 13, 2010 at 6:53 pm comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-29608).
And (if possible) scroll down through the comments since May 2010.
Many have sent the appeal letter to the Prefect. It is just a question of copy/paste.
If you have any more questions….
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al
Just back from our holiday. We went to Spain this year for obvious reasons
. The EMO put the date of ascertainment on the unofficial notices that they send out when trying to illegally coerce payment without informing people of their right to seek a legal remedy. It is the date at which the police receive the driver’s details that they are referring to – wrong in other words, and a deliberate misrepresentation of the law. If you want to see one of these documents just grab my email from Alex and I’ll send it to you.
Since more than a year has passed since your appeal letter began dropping into various prefects and nobody has come back to say that their appeal has been rejected, are we to assume that these appeals have been successful? If the appeals have been accepted but no response sent from the prefect, I would imagine that most people would have forgotten about the whole thing and not come back to report it on this blog. I think that the lack of reports is a positive sign.
Best
Kemiker
Hola Kemiker,
Thanks! I guess they add this “date of ascertainment” only on the unofficial notices for traffic violations committed with a rental car.
Or maybe they’ve only begun “recently” to put this “date of ascertainment” on the unofficial notices?
Anyway, as you say, “a deliberate misrepresentation of the law”!
Yes, since “various prefectures” haven’t bothered to reject these appeals (or the police haven’t bothered to inform the traffic offenders), I would assume that they’ve been successful.
How could it have been otherwise?
As I already wrote in a previous post: “Art. 201,1 mentions the word “accertamento” (ascertainment) 5 times, always in reference to the ascertainment of the traffic violation, NOT the ascertainment of the driver’s identity.”
A pity nobody has come back to let us know if they’ve received a positive answer (or no reply at all after 360 days).
I agree with you about: “the lack of reports is a positive sign”.
Best,
Al
My appeal was lodged 11 months ago.I used the appeal template kindly made available on this blog-i havent had any correspondence from anyone about my appeal.Its my understanding they have 12 months to either reject it or uphold it.
i am leaning towards the latter
Hi Al
Just received the first official one from the EMO posted 399 days after the offence. It’s also in English not Danish but the part that will really tickle you is the reference to art.196 and 201 of the highway code, “the driver of the vehicle, as indicated by the competent aurthorities, must be considered guilty of the infraction until proven otherwise”. Does it really say that? All in all an absolutely flagrant breach of EHRC.
It’s quiet on here isn’t it?
Best
Kemiker
Hi Kemiker,
(Danish is one of the languages on the EMO’s website).
Yet another blunder from EMO, but who’s counting anymore?
.
Such an awful translation!
(The French version is a little better).
They must have used Google Translate (like a certain reader last May whose name will be left unmentioned
That sentence is in reference to Art 196,1 (Solidarity principle) of the Italian Highway Code.
As I’ve already written, the first paragraph of Art 196 states that the OWNER of the (private) vehicle (or the holder of the rental agreement of the vehicle) is (considered to be) jointly liable with the author of the traffic violation for the PAYMENT of the fine, unless he can prove that the vehicle was used against his will.
Yep! Pretty quiet all around!
Best,
Al
Hi Bruce,
Thanks for the feedback!
Al
Excuse me but if anyone would know the mailing address of EMO so that I could write them a letter to deal with everything and ask for documents?
The webpage of EMO simply hides the address FML.
Thanks a lot!
Hi Arnold,
EMO’s email address: infoemo-en@nivi.it
Via EMO’s web site (http://www.emo.nivi.it/) you can consult your file (photographic evidence, fine information, …). Username & password are on the letter you received.
Have you read the information at the top of this page and April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584)?
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
Thanks a lot! Yes I have already read that comment and I have already written a letter ready to be posted to EMO! But all I need now is the address of EMO, not the email address thou…
I have not received my notification letter from EMO but was already deducted EUR$400 on my credit card!!!!!!! Thats why I want to send that letter to them to ask for all details.
Can you please provide me the address of EMO if you have any clue?
Thanks again!!
Best,
Arnold
Hi Arnold,
As you know, the money was deducted from your credit card by the car rental company following a request from the Italian authorities to obtain the details of the car renter.
When you signed the rental contract you agreed to pay for this admin charge.
400€ !!! This means you must have committed something like 8-12 traffic violations.
Probably for ZTL infractions. (Circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorization)
If you haven’t received yet your notification letter(s), how do you know that EMO will be the one to send them???
(In this day and age why write them a letter when you can email or call them?)
Nivi Credit s.r.l.
Div. European Municipality Outsourcing
Via Odorico da Pordenone, 20
50127 FIRENZE
Tel. 0039 055 3440391 (9am-13pm, 14pm-16pm)
BUT before anything else, I would ask the car rental company for copies of the charges against me! I wouldn’t contact EMO beforehand.
When (roughly) and where did these alleged violations occur?
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thank you so much Al!
I dont really know what’s the details for violation but whatsoever are there I am still quite pissed with the EUR$400 fine!
Right I have already sent them emails actually, so maybe in this case I will reserve the letter and use it later if needed.
I thought EMO will be the one to send me notification letter because they are the only authority in charge isn’t it? As I was already deducted EUR$400 I expected they would send me the details for violation, wouldn’t they?
The car company has only sent me some copies of invoice for deducting my money upon my request, but there are nothing much except the amount deducted and some codes that I have no idea at all.
What do you think is best for me to do?
I have already canceled the credit card last week.
Thanks alot!
Best,
Arnold
Hi there,
I have a similar problem. On the 7th of April we rented a car in Bologna airport with Sicily by Car until the 13 of April. I am Italian living in Ireland for 9 years I was born in South America but by Italian parents , so my Italian is not good enough, so I just got English Spanish, my girlfriend is Irish and does not drive.
When we rented the car the staff from the car rented didn’t tell us about EMO tax or ZTL tax when you drive into the city center, so I got 11 fines in 6 in Bologna and 5 in Milano.
I got charged my credit card for administration fees 60 euro for each fine, I spoke to Visa, but according to them all the files that the merchant sent to Visa seems alright and totally legal, The papers sent to me of the actual fines are just photocopies not originals at all, the plate registration and time coincide which means, I suppose, I was driving there in a ZTL areas or restricted ECO-pass areas and such like.
I didn’t get any original fine yet from the post office , so what should I do? I really would prefer even to contest the handling fee which seems exorbitant, now amounting to 720 euro. Visa maintains the cost is legal as I signed under the small print of this company, but I admit that I didn’t really understand at the time it would be one handling charge for every single fine.
Thanks,
Franco
Hi Franco,
Car rental agencies in Italy never inform their customers about ZTL/ECO pass.
Why should they?
They just don’t give a damn about customer service and there are very good odds that they’ll be able to bill you multiple admin fees for your ZTL traffic violations!
A few words of warning, a placard in the agency, a flier in the car, … Just unthinkable!
It’s also true that one should familiarise himself with the driving laws of the country he’s going to visit.
All car rental agencies charge one admin fee for each traffic violation.
As you have sadly discovered, contesting the admin fee is virtually impossible.
Scroll down through the comments since April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment, read May 3, 2011 – 8:46 pm comment.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Franco
For that amount of money I would ask the rental company for a breakdown of the costs involved. It’s an automatic data transfer to the police and a letter to you in the post which is a paper copy of the electronic data transfer from the police on one side and the auto-reply on the other. All in all a cost of max 5 EUR including postage. 60 EUR is a lot more than rental companies were charging last year so they are clearly profitering at you expense. If they won’t refund any of your money you can do the same as me. I gave the rental company 30 days to refund the money in full or accept that it will be index linked to a specified stock that I otherwise would have invested in. They didn’t refund any money so I have now written to them with details of which stock they can follow if they want to see how expensive it is going to be for them. Since I have appealed against all of my fines, either because they were too late or because I have proven that the signposts were obscured or missing, I have set a deadline of 2 years from the date of the offence at which point the money must be repaid according to the index. Likewise if my appeals are accepted, I will send them a copy of the prefect’s letter while at the same time demanding repayment or they will face a lawsuit for aiding and abetting an extortion racket. It is customary throughout Europe that the beneficiary of a service pays for the service rendered. In these instances the beneficiary is the police force, so they should pay until a conviction is obtained and they can apply to the court to recover the cost. If the police won’t pay (because supplying drivers’ details is a legal requirement) the rental company should bear the cost until a conviction is obtained.
If you can, try to find the cameras on Google streetview and check the signposting.
Best
Kemiker
I would have expected the car rental company to provide you with copies of the fines (sent to them by the Italian police) in order to justify the 400€ admin fee charged to your CC (for passing your details to the police).
I would demand that they send these copies.
EMO isn’t the only authority in charge but they do act on behalf of the municipal police of many Italian local council areas.
You will receive the fines in the next few weeks (months).
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Arnold
Are you sure the deductions are for fines? Are there several deductions of about EUR30-40 or just one of EUR400? The admin charge for each offence will be billed seperately so a lump sum of EUR400 would have to be something else. Al’s right of course, you must demand a copy of the charges against you immediately – that’s what the admin charges are for in part!
Best
Kemiker
Hi Al,
I still have not received my fine (last post Nov 17 2010 – 5.49) and it is now 3 weeks over a year since the offence (if any) do you think I should contact Hertz and look for a refund for the €36 they deducted from my card for giving out my information.
Cheers
Greg
Hi again Greg,
I guess it never hurts to try!
I certainly think that you should be refunded and that Hertz should reclaim that €36 admin fee from the Italian police.
But that’s easier said than done!
What can you do if they refuse to reimburse you?
Initiate a lawsuit? For €36? In Italy? I hope you’re not in a hurry!
“In a just world”, the police should at first pay and then pass the cost of the rental agency’s admin fee on to the traffic offender.
But of course, that would not be in their best interest!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Recap on post from Jan 5th 2011 : Infraction committed in October 2009, Notification sent out in December 2010, Appeal lodged 10th January 2011 on the basis that the fine was invalid (sent over 360 days after the infraction);
Just received a notice today from the Prefect of Sassari that they consider the fine is “well founded”, and they’ve doubled my fine. Should I be breaking open my piggy bank or evaluating just how long I can live without Torrone?
Cheers
Ben
hang on, I managed to miss Kremiker’s post on the subject – scrolling back up to feb 5th!
Hi Ben,
I suppose the Prefect’s underling hasn’t even bothered to explain why the appeal has been (unduly) rejected.
Simply because they consider that you can still appeal the Prefect’s decision to the Justice of the Peace. After all, you’ve got nothing better to do!
But who gives a… anymore!
Never thought I’d say this, but Torrone is overrated!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
There’s a 2 page letter from the Prefect in italian. I know the high esteem in which you hold Google Translate, so I went there straight away! From what I can gather they feel they observed the correct protocol for notifiying me of the fines :
Ritenuto che sono state osservate le disposizioni sulla contestazione e notificazione delle violazioni e che sono inutilmente scaduti I termini previsti per la conciliazione amministrativa;
I could be wrong but I think this paragraph is the issue – it suggests they notified the rental company on the 17th of December, 2009, 2 months after the infraction. This may be an arguement about “360 days from date of identification” versus “…from date of infraction”? If so it puts them roughly 5 days inside the 360 day window.
Tenuto conto che detti verbali sono stati notificati in data 17.12.2009 a mezzo del servizio postale “poste italiane”, ex art 201 del C.S. al proprietario del veicolo, la Societa di Autonloeggio, la quale, a seguito della ricezione degli atti – comunicava al comando di Polizia Municipale di Alghero, con lettera data 07.01.2010, il nominativo del soggetto locatario.
Preso atto della nazionalita straniera del trasgressore, I verbali venivano inviati in data 09.12.2010, in seconda noticica, al legittimo destinatario, nel termine dei 360 giorni previsti dalla legge, pertanto, ai sensi degli artt. 84,196,e 201 del c.d.s. dell’art.386 del relativo regolamento non puo in alcun modo essere eccepita, nella fattispecie di cui trattasi, la tardivita della notifica;
Thoughts?
If you want the full text of the letter for reference, please let me know. It’s missing a few accents on the “a”s.
Hi Ben,
I too have received a letter form the lovely prefect of sassari stating that I still owe him 600 euros of fines despite the letter being over 360 days after the infractions!
I was wondering what you did in the end as I’m inclined to not pay and see what happens?
Thanks,
Lewys
Hi Ben,
I too have received a letter form the lovely prefect of sassari stating that I still owe him 600 euros of fines despite the letter being over 360 days after the infractions.
I was wondering what you did in the end as I’m inclined to not pay and see what happens?
Thanks,
Lewys
Ben,
As you say, they “feel” they observed the correct protocol!
Since you were “identified” roughly on the 10th of January 2010 (letter from car rental agency dated 07/01/2010), they “feel” they had until early January 2011 to notify you.
They’d be right IF, and only if, a foreign resident could be notified 360 days from date of identification!
But, once again, – and I know you’ve read this page thoroughly – Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states unequivocally that the 360 day notification time limit (for foreign residents) runs from the date of the traffic violation.
I’m a mere layman, but my opinion is supported by:
- The lawyers at ADUC (Association for the Rights of Users and Consumers),
- The Judges of the Italian Constitutional Court (“ample but rigid time limit”, …),
- And,… which is particularly maddening, a simple reading of Art. 201,1 which leaves absolutely no margin for interpretation!
I won’t bore you with repeating myself anymore than I already have.
Al (not Alex)
Cheers Al. I know I’m not asking anything you haven’t already answered before, but it’s so much more comforting to see the comments directed at me specifically, makes me feel special
Ben
Check back here regularly for updates, I am waiting for replies from the Italian ambassador and the Justice Ministry here in Denmark as to the legality of the whole process. Many of the points raised on this blog have been put to them: ECHR, framework decision on cross border enforcement, the 360 day rule, case C224, Brussels Convention, etc. I’ll post the replies here when I get them but they have a lot to chew through and we have a general election here next week which will probably bring a change of government. I’m abroad on business for the next 2 weeks so there definitely won’t be any developments before then.
I am hoping that we will at least get a definitive answer on the 360 day limit since I have cited both the constitutional court’s decision and ADUC’s opinion such that they can be checked out.
Best
Kemiker
Hi,
Yet another sob story regarding an Italian traffic violation. I’d be very pleased to hear your advice. I’ve just received two letters (Sept 8th) sent by ordinary mail from Hertz each stating they will take 36 euros from my credit card for admin charges. It appears that while on holiday in Verona in May 2011, I drove through a restricted zone twice in five minutes. On the reverse of each letter it appears to state (in Italian) that I have to pay 76 euros for each ‘violation’. So that’s a total of 224 euros. Is this the official notice from the Italian police or will I get that later? We were staying in a local hotel (they gave us a parking pass because of the difficulty in parking) but didn’t warn of restricted zones. We have a blue badge (disabled) for my wife. We love going to Italy, but these fines and reading all the horror stories on your site is putting us off going again.
Hi Steve,
Hertz has rightly sent you copies of the original fines in order to justify the 36€ (x 2) admin fee charged to your CC.
In a few weeks/months you should receive either the unofficial notices (if sent by EMO) or the official (registered) notices sent by the Verona municipal police.
(Only EMO – collection agency officially mandated by a large number of Italian municipalities to notify fines to foreigners – sends an unofficial notice before the official notification.)
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment am (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584)
To the minimum amount of 76€ you have to add 15-30€ for notifying/procedural costs.
Were you staying in a hotel within Verona’s restricted zone?
http://www.poliziamunicipale.comune.verona.it/media/MOBILITA/ALLEGATI/ztl_varchi.pdf
Read the info at the top of this page.
When you receive the official notices (or the unofficial notices if sent by EMO), you should lodge an informal appeal on the grounds that your wife has a registered handicap and that your hotel was within the ZTL.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Steve
Keep all your receipts for the hotel, including parking pass. Your wife’s blue badge is your “get out of jail free card”. The letter from Hertz does not require a response to the police. It isn’t official. The official notices will turn up shortly before 360 days from the date on the document from Hertz. Before that you will receive an unofficial notice from the EMO requesting payment (without any reference to the appeal procedure) – you must use your right of appeal in your circumstances.
Write to Hertz at:
Hertz Italiana Spa
Via Del Casale Cavallari 204
00156 Roma
Italy
and demand your money is either reimbursed immediately or it will be index linked. Make sure that it is at least linked to the amount debited from your credit card in Sterling – the Euro is about to become worthless. Complain also that you were not warned by the rental office of local ZTLs. All rental companies have established departments solely to deal with this issue of passing on ZTL fines, so it’s not as if they don’t know it’s a problem for their customers. They should have their customers’ best interests at heart but choose instead to cash-in on this extortion racket.
Contact your card issuer and have the charges reversed since it is now well know that such charges are fraudulent until such time as your guilt is proven. It has not been proven that you have committed an offence and if your wife has a blue badge you are exempt from the normal regulations, ie Hertz has assumed you are guilty until proven otherwise – which is illegal. Recommend also to Hertz that they revise their procedures immediately – no credit card charge without conviction. If they want the money for the service they are providing, they should charge the police force since they are the beneficiary.
Also, pen a letter of complaint to the Italian ambassador and cite the fact that Italian embassies throughout Europe are now being asked to consider the legality of the process of enforcing cross-border fines from Italian municipalities.
Whatever you do, don’t pay. With a blue badge you are entitled to be in a ZTL.
Best
Kemiker
Kemiker,
Thank you very much for your quick response.
I don’t think I have the receipts any more unfortunately, but a credit card statement should show the Hertz car hire cost and the hotel bill. I’ll look for them.
The hotel gave us a parking pass for street parking because car parks are few and far between in the area of the hotel (in the city centre of Verona).
I do appreciate your help,
Steve
Al,
We stayed at the Hotel Armando, which is just above Via Pallone, and therefore within the restricted zone (looking at your map).
I’ve found the e-mails showing that I had booked the hotel and the car hire. Hopefully that is proof enough if I don’t find the receipts.
Thanks for your advice,
Steve
Kemiker and Al,
Today I spoke to a lady in the disputes dep’t of my credit card company. She said she would suspend the two Hertz admin charges for a month and would continue to do so until the police authorities prove me guilty or otherwise, but I have to check back with them every month with updates. She spoke to someone at Hertz in the UK but they wouldn’t budge. So I rang Hertz UK myself and after our negotiations he agreed to withdraw one of the two admin charges, in consideration that the 2 ‘offences’ were committed on the same road within 5 mins of each other and that we have a blue badge. So at least I’m half way there with Hertz. Meanwhile I have friends in Italy who have said they will take up my case with the hotel manager in Verona to see if he can help us. I’ll keep you posted!
Steve
Hi,
I just thought I’d give you an update.
I have two Italian friends and they contacted Hertz in Italy for me, to try and get the 2 admin charges reversed. They explained that we had been were staying in a hotel in the city (Verona) and that we had a blue badge. Hey presto! The charges on my credit card were reversed!
Now we have to wait and see if they’ve achieved a similar success with the police traffic fines.
Steve
Hi Steve,
Great news !
And thanks for the update !
Al (not Alex)
Hi
Thanks so much for all the help on this website. I also received a fine from Arezzo (as did all my other family members also driving!) I did as was suggested and emailed the EMO and unfortunately received this response- they are claiming they have a year from when my details were taken from my car rental company. Im now assuming i have no other option but to pay up!
Dear Mrs Laura Dickinson,
please be aware that Municipal Police is legally able to send a fine abroad within 360 days from the day of the infraction or from the day that the car rental company have sent your details to the Municipal Police.
Arezzo’s Municipal Police have received your personal details on the 19th of August of 2010, therefore our letter dated 11th of August of 2011 was sent just within the aforementioned deadline.
Please be aware that the fine you’ve received is for entering with your rental car in a restricted traffic area of Arezzo without authorisation;
Only persons who live in that zone or have special authorisation may enter, drive and park there. This area is monitored by an automatic video control device that took a photo of your car while passing through that electronic gate (you can check your dossier by connecting to our website entering user name an password written in our letter).
The ZTL zone is also indicated by international traffic signs of no thoroughfare (white circle with a red border).
Tourists with special permission can be those with a handicap or those who stay in a hotel situated inside this ZTL zone. Municipal Police of Arezzo can cancel these infringements, if you can provide a receipt, or a booking confirmation or a credit card statement from your hotel.
Municipal Police can reconsider this fine even if you, or somebody in the vehicle with you, had a disabled parking permit.
In this case, you should provide the following documentation:
- front and rear of the disabled parking permit (with name/surname/expiry date);
- statement written and signed by the disabled person (or by the guardian of the disabled person), confirming that he/she was in the vehicle on the date and time of the violation;
Unfortunately without the aforementioned authorisations, Municipal Police cannot reconsider your case.
Therefore if you wish to contest these infringements, you will have to lodge an appeal to the Prefect of Arezzo.
Please find enclose all the necessary documentation to make this appeal.
You’ll find 3 files: “how to make an appeal”, an appeal form in Italian and a English form for a better comprehension.
You have to send the Italian appeal in a registered letter within 60 days from the reception of our official notification.
You have to enclose in the appeal all the documentation that can help you regarding this infraction (hotel or car rental receipt).
I need to aware you that if the Prefect denies your appeal, the fine will be doubled.
Best Regards
Front Office
EMO – European Municipality Outsourcing – a Nivi Credit Division
Via O. da Pordenone, 20 50127 FIRENZE FI
Tel. 0039 055.34.40.390 – Fax. 0039 055.34.40.338
e-mail:infoemo-en@nivi.it
Hi Laura,
1 – For notification purposes, the relevant date is the fine sending date.
The letter is dated 11th of August of 2011, but was it sent on the same day?
Check the time stamp on the envelope!
2 – I would never pay this invalid fine, sent over 360 days after the date of the offence.
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
And (if possible) scroll down through the comments since May 2010.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al
I think the thing that concerned me is that they were so adamant that they have 360 days from the time they identify the driver…. which you are saying is incorrect….. but shouldnt they know there own laws?! From reading the posts on here i assumed that they knew that they only had 360 days from the date of the offence but sent the letters to get easy money anyway. But by emailing and directly stating they have the additional time to identify the driver they are either right or lying (which is surely illegal?) I really dont want to pay the fine if it is unlawful (as it encourages them to continue with this rubbish) but dont want to appeal to get twice the fine if we have incorrect information! Im leaving to go travelling in 4 days (obviously not to italy!) so really dont know what to do for the best!
Hi Laura,
I’ve been asking myself the same question for over a year now.
Are they lying out of greed or out of sheer stupidity?
Well, I’m afraid I tend for the former, the latter would mean that they’re all moronic.
Although, to tell you the truth, I haven’t totally ruled that out yet!
Excerpt from the Arezzo Town Council’s 2006 Deliberation/Decision (of which I have a copy) to outsource the collection of foreign drivers’ fines to EMO:
“PREMESSO che l’art. 201 del Nuovo Codice della Strada [...] impone l’obbligo della notifica delle violazioni anche ai residenti all’estero, nel termine di 360 giorni dalla commissione della violazione;”
–> Whereas Article 201 of the New Highway Code imposes the obligation to notify violations also to foreign residents, within 360 days of the commission/perpetration of the violation.
Maybe it’s time for a slight change of tactics.
We could send the appeal letter to the Justice of the Peace of Arezzo (not to a Prefect’s underling) with a copy of Decision 198/1996 of the Italian Constitutional Court and a copy of the Arezzo Town Council’s 2006 Decision.
If you wish to do so, send a message to Alex Roe (Italy Chronicles publisher) through his contact system asking him to give me your email address.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
P.S./ Seeing that you haven’t answered my question, I gather that the letter was sent on the same day it was dated?
The letter is headed: “Violation of the Highway Code Notice” and mentions, among other things, that you can appeal to the Prefect of … or the Justice of the Peace of … within 60 days?
Hi Al
I dont have the the envelope for the letter so cant check the date it was sent. Yes the letter is violation of the highway code (its the second letter i have received- my parents paid up on the first letter and my uncle is refusing to pay regardless of how many letters they send him) Ill appeal the fine and hope it takes ages to go through as im not back in the country until 22nd December! Ill appeal through the normal process.
Thanks again
Laura
Hi,
I appear to be in the same situation as Laura. Received 4 fines for Florence ZTL violation. The Infraction date is 12-June-2010 and Ascertainment date is 25-July-2011 and the Notice of Payment date is 29-August-2011.
Now, From what I read in the post above, both the Notice of Payment and the Ascertainment dates are well beyond the 360 days period. As such, I should refuse to pay the fines, correct!?
Thanks,
sands
Hi Sands,
EMO contends that they have 360 days from the identification date (what they call wrongly the ascertainment date) to notify the fines.
But the word “ascertainment” in the law refers to the date of the offence.
The “Notices of payment” are unofficial notices.
In a few weeks/months you will receive the official (registered) notices.
Read the information at the top of this page and April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
Thanks for the additional information. The 20 days stipulated for payment of the fine and now expired and I guess have to wait for the official intimation.
The question is has anyone successfully appealed to the perfect and have the fines cancelled based on this argument? And since its very clear that if the appeal is rejected we are forced to pay double the fine which a catch 22 situation
Another question: Is it absolutely clear that the 360 days period is from the date of the infraction and not the Ascertainement Date? I read the law http://www.aci.it/index.php?id=869 (translated) but it was not very clear to me.
I am asking this because if the Date is indeed the Infraction Date, I will definitely appeal and take the risk!
Many thanks and Regards,
Sands
Oh and one other thing. In the link you provided, it says that the Perfect might never respond. What happens to my appeal then? Does it stay in a limbo for ever?
tx
Sands,
If you wish, you can still pay the 4 unofficial notices of payment. EMO and the Florence police will be grateful. But don’t expect a thank you note!
Up to now we’ve had two reports from Ben and Gee who received a negative response, both from the Sassari Prefect’s underling.
Read Ben’s September 1, 2011 at 12:57 pm comment and following comments.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-31479)
Read Gee’s September 14, 2011 at 3:07 pm comment…
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-31573)
But, once again, the word “ascertainment” clearly refers to the infraction date.
Scroll down through the comments since May 2010.
In most cases I suppose that the Prefects have not bothered to reply. Or, people who sent the appeal letter haven’t come back to report on this blog.
Read my May 6, 2011 at 6:37 pm comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30786).
Al (not Alex)
I appealed using the template and advice from this blog
the appeal was sent over 12 months ago,and i havent heard a word since.
Judging by other peoples negative response to their appeal,i have to assume my appeal was successful
Hi Al,
Thanks for your response and patience
Just one last query. I understand that it appears to be quite clear that the 360 days begin from the Infraction date and not Ascertainment or any other date. However is it possible to obtain the exact legal opinion like from a Italian/ Florence lawyer with this afirmation?
I would like to send such an opinion along with my appeal to the Perfect of Florence. My hope is to demonstrate that the interpretation of the law is not a layman’s opinion but that of a lawyer.
I guess this wont be a free service unlike this fantastic blog
, so would like to know the cost of this service.
Tx and Regards,
Sands
Hi Sands,
Please! What you call the “ascertainment date” is the infraction date, simply because the word “ascertainment” always refers in the law to the ascertainment of the traffic violation (on the day it was committed!).
EMO takes the piss out of foreign offenders! They muddy the waters (purposely in my opinion) when they claim that the word “ascertainment” can also refer to the ascertainment of the driver’s identity.
I’m a foreign resident too and don’t know any Italian lawyer.
Is it really worth the hassle and extra cost?
What you could do is enclose “Decision 198/1996” (only 5 pages) of the Italian Constitutional Court with your appeal and add to the letter:
“If in doubt/For further clarification, please read “Decision 198/1996” enclosed, pay close attention to the highlighted passages ………..”
That is, if you value the opinion of a bunch of Constitutional Judges!
After all, I’m only a poor lonesome layman!
If you wish to do so, send a message to Alex Roe (Italy Chronicles publisher) through his contact system asking him to give me your email address.
I could then send you Decision 198/1996.
Service available at no charge!
As you know, to appeal to the Prefect, you’d have to wait for the official (registered) notices (“Violation of the Highway Code notice”) to come in the mail.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
P.S./ If only you could read Italian!
You don’t have to be a genius to understand Art. 201,1!
Hi Al,
Sorry if I offended you by calling you a layman (was referring to myself)
I have requested Alex to share my contact info with you. So, please share the Decision 198/1996 with me. The reason I mentioned a legal opinion is that from my own experience, authorities tend to take oficial legal briefs much more seriously than common people like us.
By the way, just got an email response from infoemo-pt@nivi.it saying exactly what has been repeated here many times – The Florence Municipal Police have upto 360 days from the date they received information regarding the driver from the rental agency! GRRRR..
I am getting more and more warmed up and itching for a fight. After Florence, we went to Pisa and Milan so I guess there might be more tickets on their way to me.
If anyone knows of a class action suit, count me in. Also, it would be great if somebody in a similar situation got their fines cancelled based on the 360 days argument would share the feedback with us.
Warm regards,
Sands
Hi Sands,
I wasn’t offended at all, I understood perfectly well what you meant.
That was just a little humour on my part!
I’m not a qualified expert on the Italian Highway Code, just an ordinary bloke who speaks Italian and carried out a “little” research on this issue.
And I agree with you wanting to send a “legal opinion” along with your appeal!
After all, if that civil servant in the Sassari Prefecture had read Decision 198/1996, he would have thought twice before rejecting the appeal. Hopefully!
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
Not sure if you have received my contact info. Anyway, you can please mail me the Decision 198/1996 to ind967@gmail.com
tx,
sands
Sands
i doubt anyone will get an official “your fine has been cancelled letter”
more likely they will just stop receiving demands for payment,so feedback will only be that no more correspondence has been recieved,as in my case
i received the fines after the 360 days,sent the appeal within the 60 days,and since then its been 400 days and i have not received anything-so i would say,my appeal was upheld,or the fine was torn up -either way its a win
Regards
Bruce
One more victim of ‘circulating in a restricted traffic zone’ in Pisa. Rec’d our first fine today and will very reluctantly pay it. Now, after reading posts here, it appears we should be awaiting further fines!
sure leaves a bad taste in one’s mouth – and makes one think again about dropping future tourist dollars in that country!
Hi there,
Another person, another traffic fine. For me, it’s 3 fines in Pisa over 15 minutes for travelling in a restricted zone: 119 euros each per the official notice, 194.50 if I do nothing.
A couple other items of note: this official notice is within 360 days of e infraction, I am a U.S. Citizen, but I have all the A.R. slips and did not sign for anything. My 360 days will run out in 1 month, so I am debating not saying anything and then protesting the time limit, or trying to appeal the fine right away to the prefect in english.
What do you think?
Thanks,
Jim
Hi Jim,
It appears that you don’t have any grounds to appeal if the official notice was sent from Pisa within 360 days of the infraction.
An appeal which is not written in Italian wouldn’t be taken into consideration. (As if you had never appealed).
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584)
With regard to the A.R. slips, read February 5, 2011 at 9:09 am & February 5, 2011 at 11:20 am comments.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30018)
At this stage you haven’t been properly notified, SEPI Pisa has no proof that you ever received the official notice.
I don’t know if SEPI will take the trouble to send you another one.
Read also May 3, 2011 at 8:46 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30749
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
Thanks for the reply. If I do nothing because I haven’t been officially notified, should I be worried about Pisa charging my rental company, Hertz, and them passing the charge to me? You allude to it in the other posts, I just don’t know if it applies to Hertz (and I already did pay them the processing fee 8 months ago).
Thanks,
Jim
Hi Jim,
Where do I “allude” to rental companies passing the charge (fine) to the traffic offender?
On the contrary!
Read September 24, 2010 at 6:55 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-29100)
Furthermore, you never authorized the Italian police to charge your CC!
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al
Some months ago when I received a notification from Comune di Siena for a ZTL offence, I found your website and kept it bookmarked awaiting the day that I received the formal notification. Unfortunately, that day came on 4th October for an offence committed 4th July 2010.
Given that I am outside the 360 days from infractionI thought I would be fine writing to the Prefect using your template.
We have an Italian lawyer at work and I showed him the letter I was about to send to the Prefect and he said he wanted to see the Highway Code Article, so he searched for it and found this..
Art.201 Notificazione delle violazioni.
1. Qualora la violazione non possa essere immediatamente contestata, il verbale, con gli estremi precisi e dettagliati della violazione e con la indicazione dei motivi che hanno reso impossibile la contestazione immediata, deve, entro centocinquanta giorni dall’accertamento, essere notificato all’effettivo trasgressore o, quando questi non sia stato identificato e si tratti di violazione commessa dal conducente di un veicolo a motore, munito di targa di riconoscimento, ad uno dei soggetti indicati nell’articolo 196, quale risulta dai pubblici registri alla data dell’accertamento. Se si tratta di ciclomotore la notificazione deve essere fatta all’intestatario del contrassegno di identificazione. Qualora l’effettivo trasgressore o altro dei soggetti indicati sia identificato successivamente, la notificazione può essere effettuata agli stessi entro centocinquanta giorni dall’identificazione.
2. Per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento. Qualora la residenza, la dimora o il domicilio del soggetto cui deve essere effettuata la notifica non siano noti, la notifica stessa non è obbligatoria nei confronti di quel soggetto e si effettua agli altri soggetti di cui al comma 1.
What he is saying to me is that the date of the ascertainment is very important and that according to the Higway Code above, they have 360 days from the date of ascertainment, not the date of infraction.
I do note that the Article above contains different wording than is throughout this blog and especially at the head of the blog.
Can you tell me please is you are aware that we have the wrong wording and if so, where I can find the Law that is relevant / current for today? Has the Law changed recently so they can now go from the date of ascertainment?
Looking forward to your comments as I really want to fight this but need to be 100% sure the Prefect will not reject (as you advise above).
Thanks and regards
Ian
Hi Ian,
For notification purposes, the relevant date is the fine sending date.
Check the time stamp on the envelope, the date on the formal notification.
Once again, the “ascertainment date” IS the infraction date!!!
The word “ascertainment” – mentioned 5 times in Art. 201,1, 14 times in all in Art. 201,1 to 5bis – ALWAYS refers to the ascertainment of the traffic violation (by means of a traffic camera, speed radar, …on the day it was committed!)
Your version of Art. 201 is outdated.
Latest/Current Art. 201: http://www.altalex.com/index.php?idnot=34127#titolo
But it doesn’t matter!
Since (at least) Italy’s 1992 New Highway Code, Art. 201,1 has always stated: “Per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento.”
–> Foreign residents must be notified within 360 days of the ascertainment.
Only Italian residents can be (if necessary) subsequently identified, hence their time limit can run from the date of their identification.
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page.
Read February 5, 2011 at 9:33 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30019)
By the way, a civil servant in an Italian Prefecture can always reject your appeal because he has misinterpreted Art. 201,1.
Tell your Italian lawyer friend to read “Decision 198/1996” of the Italian Constitutional Court.
http://ricorsimulte.weebly.com/uploads/4/7/2/5/472555/sentenza_corte_costituzionale_10-17062006_nr.198.pdf
I would send the appeal letter (registered with proof of receipt) to:
Al Prefetto di Siena
Prefettura di Siena
Via del Capitano, 14
53100 Siena
I would also enclose with the letter, not only a readable copy of the formal notification but also Decision 198/1996” of the Italian Constitutional Court with the relevant passages highlighted.
Write: “Allega: fotocopia del verbale notificato, sentenza Corte Costituzionale 10-17 giugno 1996, n. 198.”
Should the Prefect deny the appeal,… I know what I would do!
What are we expected to do from abroad? Go through the entire legal process to be vindicated in such a simple matter?
Best,
Al (not Alex Roe – Italy Chronicles publisher)
Al
Thank you most kindly for your reply and reassurances. I will respond to the Prefect as you suggest.
Best regards
Ian
Hi,
Just wanted to post an update.
First, Al, thanks for sending me the decision.
I have been exchanging some emails with ADUC (Italian consumer rights group) for possible legal assistance. Here are their last comments:
“1. sending the notification to the rental company within 360 days from the VIOLATION;
2. sending the notification to the actual driver/violator within 360 days from the day in which the police receives the rental company’s answer.”
In my case, heres what happened.
Infraction Date: 12-06-2010
Ascertainment Date:19-07-2010 (this ascertainment date if of the rental company and in the intimation sent to the rental company, it states that the Ascertainment date is the Date from which the statue of limitation starts running)
Date the rental company was informed: 14-07-2011 which is beyond the 360 days period from the infraction date but 4 days less than the Ascertainment date.
Date I, the driver was intimated: 05-September-2011.
So, according to ADUC, I can appeal based on their first conclusion but not on the second.
Any thoughts??
Regards,
Sands
Hi Sands
That’s not what is on ADUC’s web site. Regarding 1. they could never have more than 150 days to notify the rental company because the car is on Italian plates, so I don’t understand what 360 days has to do with anything. Regarding 2. the Italian highway code only mentions the concept of subsequent identification of the driver (and thereby an extended time limit) in connection with Italian residents. For foreigners it is 360 days full stop. This is almost certainly why the constitutional court ruled the way that it did.
The statute of limitations is not the same as the notification time limit. I think this is an error on the EMO’s part, they mean notification time limit of 360 days. The statute of limitations is 5 years from the date of the offence – I think.
I am still waiting for a response from the Italian ambassador here and I have also asked the Ministry of Justice to seek clarification with the Italian embassy about all the legal questions raised in this blog. I’ll post as soon as I get a reply.
The EMO are not interested in the law or the truth. This organisation is not impartial because it receives a 35% commission and it will tell lies to get the money. I wrote to them (in Italian) requesting that they serve the notification legally in accordance with international law. I just got the standard reply letter in English.
Glad to see Bruce’s appeal was upheld. Hopefully we’ll get some more then we can start putting a lawsuit together.
Best
Kemiker
Just received my 1st ticket for entering restricted area in Mila. I’m sure to receive more tickets later. I expect to get a formal notification by certified mail—I will not sign for it. I think I have read everything you posted and my conclusion is not to pay and not to return to italy. A collection agency might try to collect but who cares. It my get reported on my credit record but that’s OK. I don’t think I will be extradited for failure to pay. Your thoughts?
Hi again Mike,
Congrats on reading everything posted!
Too rare not to be mentioned!
My thoughts?
I would still return to Italy!
Haven’t you read the news lately? Italy has so much to offer and does need your money!
Read February 19, 2011 at 9:24 pm comment and following comments.
http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30124
Read October 8, 2011 at 12:29 am comment below.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Excerpts (translated) from an article published on Libero-news.it (9/9/2011)
“Tourists make a fool of Italy”
360 thousand fines, only 44% paid
According to Emo (European Municipality Outsourcing) – a company that manages the fine collection of 350 Italian municipalities on behalf of Nivi Ltd – tourists have escaped paying more than 60 million euros worth of fines in the last four years, a percentage of non-collection of 56 %.
“Over the past four years, 45 million euros have entered the coffers of the municipalities we manage”, says Luigi Nicosia, managing director of the Florentine company Nivi.
“Year to date, we have reached 11 million euros. If we consider that in 2010 we have recovered 14 million euros, we can already predict that revenue will double from last year”.
The national average is disappointing: only 44% pay within 15 months after notification.
Even the strict Germans avoid fines in 59% of cases.
Some time ago, the German Automobile Club has suggested to its members not to pay. “So”, they said, “what can they do?”. The answer is disappointing: nothing.
The EU statistics are clear: foreign drivers account for 5% of the traffic but are responsible for 15% of the infringements. Many of which remain unpunished because it is impossible to prosecute the traffic offenders after they have returned to their country.”
Florence (2010): 110 thousand fines (mostly for entering into the restricted traffic zone, which costs 76 euros) for a loss of earnings of 6 million euros.
Siena: 25 thousand fines in two years, earnings of 254 thousand euros out of over 1 million.
Pisa: 30% of fines to tourists goes into the coffers.
Al (not Alex)
Source: http://www.libero-news.it/news/817856/I-turisti-fan-fesso-il-Belpaese-60-mln-di-multe-non-pagate.html
Hi Al
What a nice piece
a tacit admission that the EMO know they are powerless when it comes to cross border enforcement. I do take issue with the headline however. It is Italy that is fleecing its tourists rather than tourists making fools of Italy. The quoted size of the fines is wrong too – they are higher!!
Best
Kemiker
Hi Kemiker,
thanks for the info but I neglected to mention one thing. The car is my company car obtained through a leasing company in Portugal. so, it is a rental but not a Italian rental agency. So, I figure the 150 days limit does not apply to foreign rental agencies.
Anyway, I have made up my mind to fight the fines. Next steps:
1. Await the official fines.
2. Pay 45 euros to ADUC to appeal my fine.
3. If the Prefect rejects them, pay additional 30 euros to ADUC to appeal to Justice of Peace.
Lets see where it goes from there.
regards,
Sands
Sands,
A “small” thing you neglected to mention!!!!!!!!
Please answer my mail sent to your gmail address.
If you could send me the official fine sent to the leasing company in Portugal, it would help me to understand the dates. Especially that 19-07-2010 date!
When was that official fine written? And posted (postmark on the envelope)?
14-07-2011 is the date the leasing company in Portugal received the fine?
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
Yeah, sorry bout that
I just replied to your email with the first intimation sent to the rental agency. The leasing company provided me the digitalized version of the letter, so I dont have the envelope.
Since the leasing agency replied on the 25th of July, I guess it was sent out on the 14th of July, 2011 (I doubt that they can imagine the date it is going to be delivered!).
Regards,
Sands
Hi Sands & Kemiker,
Regarding the official fine sent to the leasing agency in Portugal, my understanding is as follows:
12-06-2010: Infraction Date.
19-07-2010: If we follow EMO’s fallacious reasoning, this is the date at which the police identified (received the details of) the leasing company in Portugal.
Kemiker is right when he says: “this is an error on the EMO’s part, they mean notification time limit of 360 days”.
That’s what EMO falsely claims, that they have 360 days from identification date to send the (official) notification.
14-07-2011: date the official notification (to the leasing company) was written.
And also date it was posted (if we accept it was sent out on the same day it was written!?!)
If so, it was posted on the last day possible (if we still follow EMO’s fallacious reasoning).
19-07-2010 –> 14-07-2011 = 360 days from identification date.
The 360 day notification time limit and the statute of limitations are not the same.
The statute of limitations (time limit for Italian authorities to collect fines) is 5 years from the date of the offence BUT gets interrupted by any official act relevant to the fine.
Let’s assume the notification was sent to “Mr Smith, private citizen”!
The 5 year statute of limitations ran from 12-06-2010 (Infraction Date) up and until the Italian police sent the official notification on 14-07-2011.
Henceforth the statute of limitations is 5 years from 14-07-2011.
If Mr Smith doesn’t pay, the police have now 5 years (from 14-07-2011) to send him a “cartella esattoriale” (tax demand) – next step after the sending of the official fine.
If the Prefect sends Mr Smith a letter rejecting his appeal on… 1/6/2012 –> 5 years from 1/6/2012.
25-07-2011: date the leasing agency in Portugal replies/date the Italian police receive Sands’ company details/Sands’ company identification date
29-08-2011: Sands’ company Notice of Payment date
5-09-2011: Sands’ company receives the (unofficial) notice of payment.
I would say that:
1 – Sands’ company & Sands are considered to be jointly liable for the payment of the fine.
(Art 196,1 – Solidarity principle of the Italian Highway Code)
2 – The “first” notification to the leasing agency was sent belatedly!
12-06-2010 –> 14-07-2011 = 397 days from infraction date.
3 – The civil servant in the Florence Prefecture might reject your appeal “out of hand”.
This could prove just a little too complex for him. And he would think that you can still appeal the Prefect’s decision to the Justice of the Peace.
4 – The “second” unofficial notice of payment was addressed to Sands’ company, not to Sands (driver of the vehicle), therefore the official fine will still be addressed to Sands’ company.
Sands (private citizen) can’t appeal on his own. He could appeal jointly with his company/legal representative of the company.
5 – I agree with the ADUC. Sands’ company/Sands can appeal based on point n°2.
But I would add that the appeal could also be lodged based on the fact that Sands company will have received the official fine long after the 360 day notification time limit from infraction date has expired.
After all, the Law says one thing: “Foreign residents have to be notified within 360 days of the ascertainment (traffic violation)”.
As Kemiker wrote: “the Italian highway code only mentions the concept of subsequent identification of the driver (and thereby an extended time limit) in connection with Italian residents. For foreigners it is 360 days full stop.”
The Italian police should have managed to send the official fine to your company (jointly liable as you recall) within 360 days of infraction date.
At least, that’s what I think!
and, as you know, I’m not a qualified expert.
This is hard Sands
Al (not Alex)
Hi,
I’m sorry if this type of query has been answered before but I am not sure what to do about the fines we have been issued with from driving in Rome.
We travelled to Italy in April 2010 and whilst driving through Rome we apparently drove in a bus lane. This has been caught on camera and we have received two fines (we were driving in two cars as there were 6 of us).
We initially received a letter from our car rental company on 8th July 2010 telling us in Italian they had charged us two admin fees of 30 Euros as they had had to give the Italian authorities our details as we had committed some sort of traffic violation on 4th April 2010.
We then didn’t hear anything for months afterwards the car rental company actually refunded the admin fee due to the Italian authorities not pursuing the matter.
We thought that was it over and done with but then we received the initial notice of payment (but not the actual fine) from Nivi Credit in January 2011 telling us we could pay the fines early before they are sent out to us.
We ignored the notice of payment letters in the hope the actual fines wouldn’t be sent to us. 360 days passed from the date of the infraction and then also from the date we received the letter from the car rental company telling us they had let the Italian authorities know our details so we thought we would be ok.
We then received the fines from Nivi Credit on 25th August 2011. They state in the fine that the ‘date of ascertainment’ was 3rd Sept 2010 (if this was right then they had until Sept 2011 to notify us…) but I have the letter from Hertz from July 2010 stating that the Italian authorities had been notified of our details.
As they were notified of our details in July 2010 and they did not then send us the fines until August 2011 then that is over 360 days and I thought that meant they could not pursue us for payment?
It’s all very confusing so I just wanted to check, can I write back to them and say we do not want to pay the fines as they have left it too long? I think it’s terrible that they are saying it took them 5 months to ascertain we were driving the vehicles when we know that Hertz notified them of these details in July 2010.
Any help would be massively appreciated as we would prefer to not have to pay two fines of 106 Euros each!
Many thanks and kind regards
Gemma
Hi Gemma,
You seem to have read this page quite thoroughly before posting, then you know that the collection agency EMO (Nivi Credit) misleads foreign tourists when they claim that the 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic offender’s identification.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states clearly that the 360 day period runs from the date of the traffic violation.
Yes, this is a little confusing.
When did the police really receive your details?
If we trust Hertz, they gave your details early in July 2010.
But EMO (Nivi Credit) states “in the fine that the ‘date of ascertainment’ was 3rd Sept 2010”.
–> If this was right, then they had until 29th August 2011 to notify you (to send you the fines) according to their (absolutely wrong) interpretation of Art. 201,1.
“As they were notified of our details in July 2010 and they did not then send us the fines until August 2011 then that is over 360 days and I thought that meant they could not pursue us for payment?”
Right! That is too late, even for EMO, if you were in fact identified early July 2010.
Maybe they conveniently pushed the “date of ascertainment” back to September the 3rd 2011?
They can always try and pursue you after the deadline has run out. The fine remains valid if you don’t appeal within 60 days of receiving it!
I would call, or send an email to EMO with the letter from Hertz attached, demanding that they provide you with proof that you were identified on 3rd Sept 2010.
I know for a fact that EMO has already cancelled fines which were sent over 360 days after identification.
If EMO can’t be budged, keep in mind that you have until 24th Oct 2011 (60 days from 25th August 2011) to send the appeal letters to the Prefect. (If you wish to do so).
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584)
Read September 16, 2010 at 7:41 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-290309)
“I think it’s terrible that…”
Nothing surprises me anymore coming from the EMO!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
P.S./ You wrote that “the car rental company actually refunded the admin fee due to the Italian authorities not pursuing the matter”.
Maybe they had second thoughts, and asked once again Hertz to provide them with your details???
Hi Guys
Things are moving forward slowly with my formal complaints. The Danish Ministry of Justice has provided an interim response which doesn’t say very much. They confirm that they deal with cross border enforcement with other EU states in accordance with ECHR and framework decision 2005/214 of Feb 2005. In other words, fines must be received promptly, in the national language of the country that they are sent to and that any fines enforced will remain in Denmark and not be sent to Italy – at least that would be the case if Italy had ratified the legislation – which they haven’t. So if you get a fine that is not written in your national language, write to the EMO and inform them that it is invalid until it has been received in the correct language. Since they wait until the last possible day to send them out in English, they will not be able to provide a valid fine until after the “extended” deadline has passed.
The Italian Ambassador to Denmark has written to inform me that he has read my 6 page complaint which raises all the legal points mentioned on this blog. My complaint has been forwarded to the Mayor of Florence
“……with the request of giving us the elements necessary to be able to reply to it.
We are still awaiting a reply from Florence and as soon we have any news, we will return to you.”
When I have a response I will post it.
Best
Kemiker
Hi,
Thanks for all useful info on this blog. I have read here the time limit to serve a fine for a non-resident is 360 days from the date of infraction/violation. Could someone kindly clarify what date I should use to determine the notice date from the Italian authorities (Florence). I received notices in french as I live in Geneva and for the 5 fines I rec’d letters with subject ‘Avis de Paiement’ requesting payment while one of those fines had a follow up letter with subject ‘Constatation de Violation des Regles du Code del a Route’ with a slightly higher fine and allowing 60 days to pay or respond. I assume I will soon be receiving 2nd letters for the remaining 4 fines.
Of the 5 fines, 4 exceeded the 360 day limit even from their 1st letter, while one was within the 360 day limit on the first letter but not the 2nd notice.
Finally, assuming the fines did exceed the 360 day limit (as least for 4 of them) do I have to waste time to formally write back and challenge the fines or can I simply ignore them.
If anyone has a clue I would be very pleased to hear.
Tks
Damien
Damien,
Toutes les réponses à tes questions sont déjà présentes sur ce blog.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584)
“Avis de paiement…” –> “Notice of payment (before notification)” –> Unofficial notice.
“Constatation de violation…” –> “Violation of the Highway Code Notice” –> Official Notification. (“slightly higher” –> Roughly 4€ – cost of a registered letter)
For notification purposes the relevant date is the letter (fine) sending date.
Check the date on the official notice (2nd letter), if necessary the time stamp on the envelope.
If you want to follow the legal procedure you have to appeal in Italian to the Prefect of Florence within 60 days. (A fine remains valid unless you appeal)
You assume right! If I were you I would send one letter of appeal for the 5 traffic violations, depending on when you receive the remaining 4 official (registered) notifications.
Be sure not to let the “60 days from receiving the official notification” expire before sending the appeal letter.
Read August 21, 2010 at 9:58 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-28764)
Read November 8, 2010 at 11:22 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-29381)
Read January 6, 2011 at 5:25 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-29735)
Best,
Al (not Alex)
P.S./ Scroll down through the last… comments.
Dear Al,
Many thanks for taking the trouble to reply to my query and it’s clear. I will send one appeal letter now for the first infraction and wait until I receive the 2nd letters (official notice of violation) for the other 4 before sending another appeal letter covering those 4. Thanks again.
Rgds
Damien
Hi Damien,
You could also follow the advice mentioned in October 7, 2011 at 7:22 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-31899)
And send, with the letter of appeal, Decision 198/1996” of the Italian Constitutional Court with the relevant passages highlighted.
Page 3: “Come si nota dal raffronto [...]siano stati identificati successivamente.”
Page 4: “si consentirebbe una protrazione [...] ai residenti all’estero;”
Write: “Allega: fotocopia del verbale notificato, sentenza Corte Costituzionale 10-17 giugno 1996, n. 198.”
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Perfect, thanks Al.
Damien
Al -
Thanks for all the wonderful help. I’ve read through almost all the postings but want to quickly make sure I am on track with my situation.
Date of Infraction: 9/17/2010
Date of Ascertainment: 10/18/2010
Date of “Notice of Payment”: 2/4/2011
Date of “”Violation of the Highway Code Report”: 10/13/2011
My confusion is that there is a yellow card attached to the back of the Violation of the Highway Code Report envelope which I assume is the “Official Notice via Registered Mail” that I was suppose to sign for, which I never had to. It was just in my mailbox. It did state I could appeal to the Prefect w/in 60 days leading me to believe it was the Official Notice via registered mail and the mailman didn’t do it.
First thing, is the “Violation of the Highway Coder Report” in fact the true official fine that is sent via registered mail that I am suppose to sign for? If so, then that brings up two main questions/clarifications:
1) I believe I am more than 360 days beyond the Official Notice via Registered Mail dated 10/13/2011 since my infraction date was 9/17/2011. Thus, I could legally appeal to the Prefect within 60 days and hope it is accepted.
2) Or do I even bother since EMO will never have a signed receipt of me receiving the Official Notification dated 10/13/2011? Or will this just cause more work down the road?
It feels like to me I have two ways to legally get out of this. Which one should I pursue first if anything at all? Thanks again for you help!!!
Brandon
send in your appeal within the sixty days
use the appeal template kindly provided on this blog,and follow the instructions of what to send with it
use registered mail,so you have a record of acceptance
thats all i did-and never heard another word about it
it cost me $15 and a trip to post office
my appeal letter was received by the pisa police 13 months ago
they signed for it,i kept a copy of everything,and i dont expect to hear anymore about it
Hi Brandon,
Thanks for reading through “almost” all of the postings.
Yep, that was the “true official fine”.
Read June 2, 2010 at 4:48 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-28000)
Read February 4, 2011 at 6:46 pm comment and the two comments below.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30012)
1) Right again! 17/9/2010 –> 13/10/2011 –> 391 days!
In Italy the date format is (dd/mm/yyyy).
An appeal to the Prefect should certainly be accepted… if they bother to reply at all.
According to EMO’s (absolutely wrong) interpretation of the 360 day notification time limit, your official fine was written out on the last day possible.
18/10/2010 –> 13/10/2011 –> 360 days!
But was it posted on the same date? If not, you can send an email to EMO demanding that they cancel your fine sent over 360 days after the date of ascertainment (identification).
Check the (sending) date on the envelope/yellow card!
(EMO has already cancelled fines which were sent over 360 days after identification)
2) True! You haven’t been formally notified.
I believe you live in the States?
EMO won’t bother to send you another official (registered) fine. You’ll receive an unregistered “last reminder” letter, then they desist and eventually “entrust” your file to a debt collection agency established in your country of residence.
Read February 19, 2011 at 9:24 pm comment and following comments.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30124)
I can’t give you an absolute answer!
- If you write the email to EMO, they might reply that they sent you a notice of payment in February 2011 and refuse to cancel the fine. Even though the notice of payment has no legal value.
- If you appeal you have no guarantee:
–> that the civil servant (in the Italian Prefecture) will not misinterpret the (crystal clear!) 360 day rule,
–> that you will ever receive a response,
–> that, while your appeal is being considered, you won’t receive any “last reminder” letter from EMO or be harassed by a debt collection agency.
Simply because there seems to be no coordination between EMO and the Italian Prefectures!!!
This is Italy! I should know! I’m dealing at the moment with various Italian Administrations, it’s quite a maddening experience, to say the least!
That being said, I would send that email to EMO (if the official fine wasn’t written and posted on the same day) and, if necessary, I would lodge an appeal with the Prefect within 60 days.
If only just for the fun of it! I know! My definition of fun is a little peculiar!
Read October 31, 2011 at 3:51 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32050)
- If you decide “not to bother”, simply disregard any “last reminder” letter you may receive and any future possible contact from a debt collection agency.
The end result is always the same!
You’re not a gullible tourist willing to pay for an invalid fine.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
P.S./ If you need the address of the Italian Prefecture, just ask.
Thanks for the response, it is much appreciated. I have decided to appeal instead of later hoping the EMO won’t have a case against me given I never signed for the Official Notice.
In doing so, I want to confirm a couple things first.
1) I believe my speeding ticket was an infraction of the Highway Code No.285, which is the number in parathesis below the “Violation of the Highway Code” header. Is 285 the correct code number? On the Office Notice there is another line that says “Article Violated/Paragraph ART.142 C 8″.
2) Per previous posts, please confirm I should also enclose a copy of “Decision 198/1996″ of the Italian Constitutional Court with the relevant passages highlighted on page 3 and 4 as it relates to a foreign (United States) resident. These two highlights are applicable to a foreign resident’s 360 day notification period from the date of infraction, correct?
http://ricorsimulte.weebly.com/uploads/4/7/2/5/472555/sentenza_corte_costituzionale_10-17062006_nr.198.pdf
3) I will send the appeal letter (registered with proof of receipt) to:
Al Prefetto di Firenze
Prefettura di Firenze
Via Giacomini 8
50129 Firenze (FI)
4) I am using your appeal template you provided previously, have their been any changes or additions? Is there anything else I can send in to support my appeal?
Thanks, Brandon
Hi Brandon,
1) The “new” Highway Code was approved with legislative decree n°285, dated 30th April 1992.
You broke Article 142,8 of the Italian Highway Code.
–> Speeding by more than 10km/h up to 40km/h over the limit: Fine: from 159 to 639€.
In the appeal letter you mention the fine number/infraction number. I believe yours ends with “/10”, for year 2010.
2) Correct! As an added “precautionary measure”.
3) Send your registered letter of appeal with proof of receipt to:
Al Prefetto di Firenze
Prefettura di Firenze
Ufficio Ricorsi per Violazioni al Codice della Strada (Appeals office for violations of the Highway Code)
Via Antonio Giacomini 8
50132 Firenze
4) Just add “Allega: fotocopia del verbale notificato, sentenza Corte Costituzionale 10-17 giugno 1996, n. 198.”
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification.
In Italy the date format is (dd/mm/yyyy).
Write “Al Prefetto di Firenze… + full address …” also on the appeal letter.
“Il sottoscritto___” for a man.
Al (not Alex)
A few years ago while driving on the GRA heading to the to FCO airport for a flight back to the US I was struck from behind in a traffic jam. Both cars were totaled & the occupants of the small car that struck me were taken to the hospital. Meanwhile I spent about three hours sitting on the side of the road with my rental car on a wrecker as two members of the autostrda police poured through a library of books in their car. Somewhat bizarre. I asked to leave in order to make my flight but that was denied & I missed my flight. Finally they decided I was to be fined 70 euros because I ‘did not have a translatable drivers license’ whatever that means. I explained that I had been in Italy for only two weeks & the rental company said nothing about a license issue. Anyway I paid the fine & was finally permitted to leave. Now I simply go to AAA in the US with two passport photos, pay $15 & get an international drivers license good for one year. So missing the fight was an extra personal fine plus paying for a hotel for an unplanned extra night in Rome.
Hi Stan,
Italian Highway Code
Art. 135 – Driving with licences issued by foreign countries
Valid –>18th January 2013
If the driver’s license or the international driver’s license issued by the foreign State do not conform to international conventions to which Italy is a party, they must be accompanied by an “official Italian translation” or an equivalent document.
Fine: from 80 to 318€.
From 19th January 2013
Art. 135 – Driving with licences issued by countries outside the European Union or the European Economic Area
Subject to international agreements, –> driving license + international license (official translation in Italian).
(Driving license and international license must be valid)
Driving without international license (official translation) –> Fine: from 400 to 1600€.
The international license is issued by the competent authority that issued the driving license and conforms to international conventions to which Italy is a party.
If not –> Fine: from 78 to 311€.
Al (not Alex)
We spent a week in Florence. Kept our van in a parking garage and now we got to two charges on our credit card from Budget for their inconvenience. Later a summons came regular mail written all in Italian. Have no idea what to do with it. I think they may be parking tickets, not sure. Will I be recieving something registered as the official fine? I don’t know how to proceed. any ideas thanks
Hi Joanne,
Hard to answer with so few details.
But I imagine the “summons” was sent by Budget in order to justify their charges on your CC.
Right? That would explain why it’s written in Italian.
If this is the case, then you’ll receive from EMO (Nivi – http://www.emo.nivi.it/) in a few weeks/months a “Notice of payment” (regular mail) followed by a “Violation of the Highway Code Notice” (registered mail).
Read the information at the top of this page and April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
You probably broke Article 7 (ZTL violation – driving in a restricted traffic zone) of the Italian Highway Code on your way to/from the garage.
Were you staying in a hotel situated in the city centre?
Read July 21, 2010 at 6:47 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-28517).
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
I first wrote to you last May telling you that we were caught by a speed camera near Arezzo on 03.08 2010 and had just received the ‘amicable’ letter requesting 245.50 euros for being 23kph over the limit. Your reply suggested that we should probably receive the registered letter just before the 360 days were up i.e. 30.07.2011.
Well we have just received the so called ‘registered’ letter dated the 10.11.2011 but as there was no one in the house when the post man delivered the post 915.11.11) it was pushed through the letter box along with the other post with a red sticker on it saying ‘signature required’, so of course we have not signed for anything.
The EMO are obviously going from the date when the car hire firm notified the police of my identification i.e.19.11.2010 which comes to 357 days but the number of days from the date of the offence i.e. 03.08.2010 to 10.11.2011 is 465 days.
Can you please confirm that it definately should go from the date of the offence, everything I have read seems to say that, but I want to make sure that nothing has changed. If that is the case are we right in thinking that they are out of time in sending the letter, plus the fact that it has not been signed means that I have no case to answer, and if they sell the debt on to a debt collecting agency in this country I will still not have to pay, and can’t legally be forced to pay.
Your comments would be very welcome.
Regards, Paul
PS Keep up the fantastic work that you are doing.
Hi Paul
Please see me post below.
Best
Kemiker
Hi Paul,
Is the postmark on the envelope also 10.11.2011?
If not, is it over 360 days from what EMO improperly calls the date of ascertainment (identification)?
Nothing has changed.
The concept of “subsequent identification” can only apply to Italian residents.
Your analysis of the situation is absolutely spot-on.
In my mind you have two options:
- Even though you have not signed for the registered fine, you could still send the appeal letter (registered with proof of receipt) to the Prefect of Arezzo.
Al Prefetto di Arezzo
Prefettura di Arezzo
Piazza Poggio del Sole, 1
52100 Arezzo
- Given that you haven’t been formally notified, ignore any future possible contact from a debt collection agency.
Read November 6, 2011 at 1:58 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32098)
Read October 7, 2011 at 7:22 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-31899)
Read October 31, 2011 at 3:51 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32050)
Read February 4, 2011 at 6:46 pm comment and the two comments below.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30012)
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Dear All
I have now got a reply from the Italian embassy which has come directly from the Municipal Police in Florence. What do you think it says? Of course they disagree and think that everything is legal and above board. In fact it’s just full of denial and inaccuracies. They clearly don’t know what the EMO are sending out. It’s in Danish so I can’t just cut and paste it in here. I’ll post snippets later but here are a couple of my favourites:
“….breaches of the highway code in Denmark cost exactly the same as in Italy, if not more.” No, minor offences cost 500DKK + 10DKK in admin. ZTL infractions are more than 100EUR which is over 750DKK, so 50% more and the speeding fine over 135EUR is twice as much with the 80EUR admin cost being 60 times higher!
More importantly they also state catagorically that the EMO does not sell the unpaid fines as debts or try to circumvent international law. So if any of our American bretheren currently being pursued by Cedar Financial would like to get in touch, we can set the record straight. Similarly if there are any others who have evidence that of being pursued by collection agencies that obviously have been contacted by the EMO, I would be interested to receive it.
Regarding the 360 day limit they stick to the EMO’s interpretation, fail to mention the fact that both art 201 and the constitutional court distinguish between Italians and foreigners with the concept of subsequent identification applying only to Italians. They similarly fail to mention the position of lawyers at ADUC.
Their reply also puts them somewhat at odds with the Danish Ministry of Justice and previous decicions by the Prefect of Florence.
I’ve just appealed my second fine which contains the following classic “The instrument is used in conformity with the specific ratification in a stretch of road listed in the special Decree of the Prefect of Hertz Italiana spa, ….” I could be wrong but I suspect such a prefect does not exist – I think they’re making it up!!!
Best
Kemiker
Hi Kemiker,
This is not just laughable, but also sad !
The one thing this pitiful reply you got is not is surprising!
What’s the position title of the person who wrote that appalling reply?
EMO does not sell unpaid fines as debts?
Not only do we have the Americans being harassed by Cedar Financial, but also the French by France Créances, the Belgians by TCM Belgium and probably others too.
Regarding the 360 day limit, as I’ve already pointed out countless times, you don’t need the judges of the Constitutional Court or the lawyers at ADUC to understand Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code.
Even the Arezzo Town Council’s in its 2006 Deliberation/Decision to outsource the collection of foreign drivers fines to EMO recognizes that this notification time limit runs (only) from the date of the traffic violation.
Such manifest disregard for the law is stupefying!
Are the Florence Municipal Police above the law?
To resort to foreign collection agencies, to blatantly lie about the 360 day notification time limit amounts to nothing less than an institutionalized scam, the EMO and the Italian police (municipalities) colluding to illegally extort money from unsuspecting, blissfully ignorant tourists.
“The Prefect of Hertz Italiana spa”?!?
It just goes to show what morons they are at EMO!
But you can’t expect them to concentrate on such negligible details, they’re too busy deliberately misinforming foreign traffic offenders in their quest for profit!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al
I had not necessarily expected to get the truth from the Florentine police, after all they cannot openly admit that they are flouting the law. However, I had not expected them to lie so blatantly to foreign citizens through their ambassador. I set a trap and they fell right into it! I am sure that His Excellency Carlo Tripepi will be absolutely livid when he gets my next communication, because they have put him in a very awkward position. To continue to perpetuate the lie about the 360 day rule while the prefect from the same municipality is accepting appeals made on precisely that basis is disingenuous to put it mildly! There is no way the police or the EMO can claim that they are not aware of the correct interpretation of the law – they know when appeals are accepted or rejected.
What I really need now is some documentation from people who are being chased by debt collectors. Have you seen any of this or are you able to contact anyone? I should maybe ask Alex Roe for the email addresses of the US citizens that have posted above but I don’t know if he is allowed to give them out.
Also, if we could get any written confirmation of an appeal having been accepted. Bruce’s appeal was obviously accepted but he has no confirmation, do you think we could push the issue by writing to the EMO and demanding the reasoned response that the law requires (can’t remember which article it is but it’s there somewhere)?
If I can get hold of some documents, we have what we need to start legal proceedings. The letter I have from the embassy is an official translation so there can be no claims of misinterpretation or misunderstanding – the lies have been documented and they come from the Italian government’s representative in Denmark. They can’t wriggle out of that!
I’ll post a few more things from the letter this weekend.
Best
Kemiker
Hello!
I rented a car from AVIS in July and today (28th November) I received 5 fines (and I expect 5 more because I rented 2 cars on my name) due to the ZTL restriction. I have to pay more than 300 euros for that! Luckily, reading this I found out that it is worth to appeal if my accommodation was in the ZTL area – and our was! We were staying in an apartment of the old town of Lucca, so obviously we had to go there with our cars, because we had lots of bags and our landlady told us to meet there. So if we manage to get a proof that we were staying there, where or who should I contact? Avis? Local police? (didn’t find any Lucca’s police e-mails) I’m just so confused at the moment.
Hi Helin
Sounds like you have the notifications from Avis. Contact your landlady and get the confirmation that you were resident at the time in question. Then contact Avis and tell them the same and that you will not accept any charges being made to your credit card for the notifications from the police. If they charge your card anyway, write to the card issuer and explain that you are innocent until proven guilty and these charges are fraudulent and part of a well established international scam which will shortly be facing a class action lawsuit.
Then sit back and wait for the courtesy letters from the EMO. When they arrive (probably next May) contact the EMO and see if you can get it all cancelled with your proof of temporary residency from the landlady.
Best
Kemiker
Hi Helin,
Avis has sent you copies of the original fines (in Italian) in order to justify the 300€ admin fee charged to your CC (for passing your details to the police).
All car rental agencies charge one admin fee for each traffic violation! The rental Terms & Conditions allow for that. I would follow Kemiker’s advice and contest these charges.
In a few weeks/months you will receive the unofficial “Notice of payment” (regular mail) followed by a “Violation of the Highway Code Notice” (registered mail).
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
The ZTL policy for hotel/room rental guests in Lucca is the following:
Access and transit of vehicles which need to reach their accommodation facilities is permitted only upon arrival or departure and along the shortest route
to the hotel or the facility chosen.
Access and transit is allowed in the entire Old Town without hourly limitations. But the time needed for the loading/unloading of baggage may not exceed 15 minutes.
Upon your arrival (or possibly already at the time of your booking), your landlady should have inserted in the database of vehicles authorized to access the ZTL your license plate number, day and time of your arrival and the duration of your stay.
She probably never requested an ID and password in order to do the above things.
As Kemiker suggested, as soon as you receive the “unofficial” fines, contact the EMO via email and provide them with proof of your stay in Lucca.
They should then cancel your fines, but I fear, only those received within the time allowed (15 minutes) on your arrival/departure dates. They have already done so in the past.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Al,
I received 2 fines for driving in Bus lanes in Florence in May 2010. My official fines were sent after the 360 limit with respect to the violation date, but 359 days after EMO’s claimed date of “ascertainment”! 359 days. Can you believe this crap?! Why do they push it RIGHT to the limit and make life hard for everyone?!
Anyway, I checked on Google Streetview and both of my fines are legit. I did drive in Bus lanes and they were sign posted (one clearly, the other not so clearly), but I just didn’t see the signs at the time because I was trying to work out where the heck to go and not hit any scooters or people (lol).
I have read every single comment on this page, so I feel I have a good understanding of the situation.
Basically, the only basis I have for appeal is based on:
1) The date of ascertainment issue
2) The fact that I didn’t signed for the official fines
I have 4 days left to appeal (6th Dec 2011). I’ve been hanging on to the last minute to see what people have found out.
I’m disappointed that there’s no conclusive evidence that appealing is worth the risk and that if you ignore the fines you won’t be chased by a collection agency.
I don’t like to be taken advantage of, but at the same time, I’d like to return to Italy without being arrested and deported or imprisoned and I don’t wish to pay a double fine or be pursued by a debt collection agency. I’m seriously thinking about paying just to avoid all the hassle. While this may not help the cause of fighting the establishment, if I lose, I have everything to lose and nothing to gain. Al, you seem very confident in giving people like me advice to appeal or ignore, but how can you be so confident when this issue is still very much an ongoing one? I don’t feel comfortable until I see a prefect’s appeal acceptance response in writing.
What do you think?
Mark
Hi Mark,
Yep, I can believe this crap !
If you’ve read “every single comment on this page” (btw, thanks!), there’s nothing much I can add.
Out of the dozens of (360 day limit) appeals sent (I also contribute to a French web site), only two reports of (negative) replies from the same misguided civil servant in the Sassari Prefecture!
Why is that? Are all the Italian Prefectures clogged up with work? Why haven’t they bothered to reply? Why pass on the opportunity to double the fine?
Appealing is not risky. If my appeal is denied, I’ll wait peacefully for them to drag me to court. That’ll be the day!
Even if you “see a prefect’s appeal acceptance response in writing” from one Prefecture, it doesn’t mean you’ll see positive responses from all Italian Prefectures.
I’d rather put my trust in the judges of the Constitutional Court than an underling in a Prefecture. And if you could read and understand Art. 201,1, you’d be confident too.
Why do you think they unlawfully resort to debt collection agencies? Which, like Nivi Credit (EMO), are all members of the TCM Group (“unique global alliance of debt collection agencies”).
Many traffic offenders have been ignoring collection agencies for years now. A little intimidation at the beginning, then they desist.
Condescending to EMO’s demands would be tantamount to donating your money to the municipality of Florence. And let’s not forget EMO’s 35% commission!
As for being arrested, your name would need to be on a national traffic offender register.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Mark
Was one of the bus lanes in Via Senese? A lot of people have been caught there, myself included. If so the signposting has changed since you drove past it – it is now considerably improved. Previously you could not see the “no vehicular access” sign until you had driven through the junction and it was too late, and it was impossible to read the list of exceptions before going past it anyway.
I would definitely appeal, in fact I have appealed both my fines on several counts. If the debt collectors come calling they need a warrant issued by a court in your country of residence. To date there is no evidence that a debt collector has come with a warrant – why? Obviously they wouldn’t get one! There is not a court outside Italy that would allow it. The only legal way for the Italians to recover traffic fines is to sue you in your country of residence using the Brussels convention. The notification time limit then becomes that which applies in the country concerned, which if you are in the UK is 2 weeks. I am not aware of any country in Europe (except Italy) that allows more than 3 months from the date of the offence. This is why the EMO is trying to do it through their friends in the TCM group of debt collectors. This has recently been denied by the Florentine police to me personally through the Italian ambassador to Denmark. They deny it because they know it’s illegal – unfortunately for them, paper leaves a trail……
Best
Kemiker
Newsflash !
Among the “Informazioni Utili” (Useful information) published in the “Police section” of the official site of the Municipality of Rome – one of the 350+ Italian municipalities which have delegated to Nivi Credit (EMO) the collection of fines for violations committed by foreign residents – you can now read the following:
Per i residenti all’estero o per i veicoli immatricolati all’estero il verbale verrà notificato entro 360 giorni dal giorno della violazione.
For foreign residents or for foreign-registered vehicles, the fine will be notified within 360 days from the date of the violation.
http://www.comune.roma.it/wps/portal/pcr?contentId=NEW145409&jp_pagecode=newsview.wp&ahew=contentId:jp_pagecode
Is it the result of quite a few appeal letters received by the prefecture of Rome?
Kemiker, yes one of the violations was that place on the Via Senese. I agree that looking on Google Streetview, I could not have read the sign until it was too late to avoid going into the bus lane. I’m glad they’ve improved the signage. Unfortunately it doesn’t help me though.
Al, tomorrow is my 60th day after I received the official fine. Given your newsflash, I now feel more confident about appealing, but can I just check, if I send the appeal on the 60th day, does that still count, or does the prefect have to have received it by the 60th day?
And also, does my sending an appeal letter basically mean I’m acknowledge that I’ve received the letter? I didn’t sign for it, so could I just ignore everything and if they come after me, just claim that they never sent me anything? They have no proof that they’ve notified me!
Mark
Mark,
My newsflash refers to the municipality/police of Rome.
Do you think that all Italian prefectures/municipal police are on the same page?
That would be too simple, but unfortunately it doesn’t work like that.
It shouldn’t happen but they all have a mind of their own!
I’m glad you “now feel more confident about appealing” but, as I’ve repeated many times over, Art. 201,1 leaves absolutely no margin for interpretation!
We are facing the EMO/Florentine Municipal Police which have no qualms about deliberately misinforming foreign traffic offenders in their quest for profit!
To my knowledge, the Florentine Prefecture has never replied to any (360 day time limit) appeal letters sent to them. I wonder why? Are they really too busy?
Anyway, I would send the appeal letter. Read October 31, 2011 at 3:51 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32050)
Naturally, you can send the appeal on the 60th day after you received the official fine.
(The relevant date is the appeal letter sending date)
BTW, when did you receive it? Why don’t you write a date of your own choosing (within limits) on the appeal letter?
And of course, you’d be acknowledging receiving the official fine if you appeal.
Or, you could just ignore everything and…
Read February 4, 2011 at 6:46 pm
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30012)
The end result is the same.
At least I hope you will never pay these invalid fines!
Al
One other question…
this article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/columnists/gillcharlton/5443294/Ask-Gill-pay-Italian-traffic-fines-or-face-courts.html) states that rental car companies will have to pay your fine for you and might blacklist you until you pay up a much higher amount (includes penalties and fees). Has anyone had this happen to them? That doesn’t sound nice.
I don’t want to appeal and find that I can rent a car anywhere!
Mark
Mark,
I thought you said that you had “read every single comment on this page”!
The car rental company will NOT pay your fine(s) for you unless the car rental agreement allows them explicitly to charge you also for the payment of the fine.
But that’s not the case!
In Italy, if the car is a rental, Art 196,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Solidarity principle) states that the car rental company is NOT jointly liable with the author of the traffic violation and the holder of the rental agreement of the vehicle for the payment of the fine.
They have one legal obligation and that is to provide the personal data of the car renter to the police within 60 days.
They’re out of the picture by now, you’re the one being pursued as holder of the rental agreement.
Car rental companies couldn’t care less if you appeal, pay your fine(s) or not.
And of course, the police can not charge your CC!
Al
Hmm, ok. And what about the blacklisting? Am I going to be banned from ever renting a car again until I pay up or is that a load of BS? It seems to be that the debt collection agency is threatening that, but I’d have thought that if it was true, at least someone on here would’ve run into this problem, but I haven’t seen anyone say that yet.
I just found this interesting article. It doesn’t look very conclusive. We are advised risk ignoring it, but the bailiffs may come knocking in the future? I don’t like the sound of that.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/2719359/Parking-in-Europe-Fine….html
As you say, a load of BS!
Mark,
You seem to be afraid of your own shadow!
Your fines are invalid!
At this point, I would suggest that you pay them up.
For your own peace of mind!
Al
I have it in writing from Hertz that once they have given my details to the police, it’s purely a matter between myself and the authorities. You won’t get blacklisted because they don’t care. I still rent with Hertz 2 or 3 times a year.
Your own link to the Telegraph contains a quote by a debt collection agency in the UK “…The problem is one of enforcability….” You bet it is – because it’s illegal. There are two legal avenues, 1) the framework decision on the mutual recognition of financial penalties which requires the money to remain in the UK following a fair and public hearing in an Italian court. These things never go anywhere near a court. 1000 tickets aree issued everyday, what do you think would happen to the court system if they all had to be enforced in the legal way? Neither the UK nor Italy has signed this legislation so it can’t be used. 2) The Brussels convention for use in civil and commercial matters which requires the Italian police to sue you in a British court according to British law. Since an NIP needs to be served within 2 weeks of the offence, they would be laughed out of court. In other words if they did it the legal way, they would lose, which is why they are trying to do it by the back door. It isn’t legal which is why debt collectors can’t get a warrant to enforce the fines.
As for ignoring it, the notifications are served in accordance with http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32007R1393:EN:HTML on the serving of judicial and extra judical documents in civil and commercial matters (which is why they should be using the Brussels convention for enforcement). The only thing that counts is the date at which the notification is posted. It is not invalidated if you don’t receive it so the problem doesn’t go away and you are not better off than if you had appealed.
Just appeal, the more of us that appeal the better the chances of getting it changed become. And there’s no need to feel bad about not paying invalid fines especially given that this is an extortion racket!
Best
Kemiker
Thanks Kemiker, your Hertz story is very helpful!
I have an interesting update for you all. I went to pay up today on the Nivi Credit website because I was under pressure to make a decision and like Al said, for me it was more about peace of mind than anything else. However, the site didn’t seem to accept two different cards I tried.
I couldn’t do a bank transfer, so I decided to call EMO.
To my surprise, the guy who answered spoke very good English and was actually quite nice to me on the phone. He was actively trying to help me to not pay by asking if I had a disabled badge and asked if I wanted an extension due to the website problems.
I said “maybe”, and then proceded to ask him about the 360 day limit and Italian highway code article 201.1.
He said to me that the word “accertamento” doesn’t actually specify whether ascertainment means identification of driver details from the rental company OR from a camera on the date of violation. I’m not 100% sure if he’s right or not, but when I said “so you can interpret it any way you like then?” he basically agreed with me.
He said different cities treat the law differently. Rome treats it as of the date of violation, Florence treats it as the date the details are collected from the rental company. Florence treats it this way “because rental companies can take a long time to return details sometimes”. So, in summary, each city can do as they please because the law is very vague!
He then asked me if i’d signed for the official notifications. I said that I hadn’t and he said that if I hadn’t signed, a further reminder will be sent but the fine amount will NOT increase. The amount will ONLY increase if you don’t pay after THAT, and you’ll get a fourth reminder letter which states this.
Importantly, he said that the 60 days to appeal starts when the delivery is signed for ONLY and therefore my 60 days didn’t end today. In fact it hasn’t even started yet!
I then said, “if I get a second letter which I sign for and that came more than 360 days after my details were passed to them, would that mean that the fine becomes void?”. His reply was that the 360 day limit is deemed to end when the FIRST official notice was SENT, even if it wasn’t signed for. They like twisting the rules to their advantage don’t they?!!
One other interesting tip that he gave me was that the prefect of Florence is apparently overrun with appeal letters at the moment and so it can take a long time to respond. No indication could be given as to how many appeals are successful.
So, basically, I’ve elected to wait for the next letter to come, and then I may possibly appeal.
My only concerns left are whether he’s right about that “accertamento” sentence and whether anything might happen at customs if I try to enter Italy again in the future.
Does anyone know whether customs have access to details of traffic offenders? Are they even likely to check? Has anyone ever had any problems re-entering Italy after appealing or deciding not to pay a fine?
Mark
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your interesting update.
What did I tell you, Mark, about prefectures not being on the same page!
That’s right! Let’s all interpret Article 201,1 any way we like!
Rome interprets it one way, Florence interprets it another way,………
The Law is not vague and there is absolutely no ambiguity about the word “accertamento”, which is mentioned 5 times in Art. 201,1, 14 times in all in Art. 201,1 to 5bis.
ALWAYS in reference to the ascertainment of the traffic violation (by means of a traffic camera, speed radar, …on the day it was committed!)
“Florence treats it as the date the details are collected from the rental company. Florence treats it this way “because rental companies can take a long time to return details sometimes”
Rental companies are often “requested” to return the driver’s details within 15 days.
In any case, they must comply with Art 126-bis and provide the details of the car renter to the police within 60 days. If they fail to do so, they’ll be subjected to a fine of 269€ (up to 1075€).
90 days to send the (“first”) fine to the rental company (Rented car with Italian plates).
60 days to receive the car renter details.
At worst, 90 + 60 = 150 days!
Which means the police have another 210 days to send the fine to the foreign resident.
Who do they think they are kidding ?
“a further reminder will be sent but the fine amount will NOT increase”
They must send that “further reminder” via registered mail and get some kind of proof of receipt back. Either with your signature, mentioning the fact that you’re refusing to sign, …
Because if you’re left with the yellow card attached to the back of the envelope once again……….
They do like twisting the rules to their advantage.
They have no proof of receipt from that first official notice.
“my 60 days didn’t end today. In fact it hasn’t even started yet!”
Naturally.
Enclose with the letter of appeal “Decision 198/1996” of the Italian Constitutional Court with the relevant passages highlighted.
No “centralized database of pending fines”.
The Comune di Como has a local database. Other Comuni?
Al (not Alex)
Help!
Dear all, I like many of you have been stung by the dreaded ztl fine.
I was on holiday in Sardinia and was issued fines for 3 offences on the 21-05-2010.
I did some research and was very relieved to come across this website!
The official notification was received on the 11-08-2011 so I was fairly confident that I had a case for notification after the 360 day limit!
I completed the sample letter found on this blog and sent it off to the prefect of sassari on 28-08-2011.
Unfortunately today I received a reply – my first problem is that I don’t speak any Italian so cannot read it- secondly it seems to be implying that they still feel I owe them upwards of 400euros!
I was under the impression that this was a fairly clear case of being notified outside of the allotted time, can anyone help??
Many thanks,
Lewys.
I have copied what I believe to be the meat of the letter below:
ritento che sono state osservate le disposizioni sulla contestazione e notificatiozione delle violazioni e che sono inutilmente scaduti i termini previstivi per la conciliazione amministrativa
visto il ricorso prodotto dall’interessato in data xxxxxxx
Vista la nota n.xxxxxx uff. Contr. del xxxx pervenuta a questo ufficio in data 5.10.11 con la quale l’organo accertatore ha confermato intergralmente il verbale contravvenzionale specificando che la violazione accertata e stata confermata dalla visione della documentazione fotografica allegata in atti e che dall’esame dei fotogrammi e risultato peraltro evidente che il veicolo targato aaaaaaa utilizzato dal ricorrente in qualita di locatario, accedeva in ztl senza la prescritta autorizzazione.
Attesto inoltre che, in merito all’eccezione sollevata in recourso in relazione alla mecanta notifico entro I termini di legge, deve replicarsi che il verbale oggetto dell’impugnazione, e stato notificato entro I termini previsti dalla vigente normativa in quanto:
- veniva effettuata una prima notifica – a mezzo del servizio postale post italliene – ai sensi dell’art.201 del c d s, al proprietario del vehicolo intestatario, che, a seguito della ricezione dell’atto, communicava al commando police
Hi Lewys,
You’re the third victim of that moronic civil servant in the Sassari Prefecture.
My September 2, 2011 at 7:37 pm reply to Ben applies also to you.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-31490)
The meat of the letter is the last two paragraphs of your post and … what comes after.
Yours is not a “fairly” clear case but a crystal clear one!
Only we’re dealing with incompetent people unable to understand a simple Article of Law!
Your fines were invalid. Do not pay! The hell with them!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Thanks al,
I agree Im not wasting my cash on the prefect, I will post again if I get arrested at the border or lose my left arm to the bailiff.
Thanks for all the help on this forum!
Lewys.
A bit of help please I too have been stung by a charge for a parking violation in Sardinia. Violation allegedly happened on 24th July 2010. Date of ascertainment on letter is 20th of December 2010. I got letter dated 1st December 2011. Reading through this blog it appears the charge is not valid as it is more than 360 days after the event. I have also read an article from the Daily Telegraph which suggests I will not be pursued through the courts for non payment of a fine. Am I better to ignore it or appeal?
just to clarify I have received a violation of the Highway Code
Hi Alistair,
The “Violation of the Highway Code” is the Official Notification sent via registered mail.
Even though you didn’t sign for it (you still have the yellow card attached to the back of the envelope, right?), I would appeal.
As you’ve already understood, the fine (dated 1st December 2011) is invalid.
Was it sent by the Emo (Nivi Credit)?
Where in Sardinia did you commit this offence?
Which Prefect does the letter mention?
Best,
Al (not Alex)
It was sent from Nivi credit, and I supposedly commited the offence at a beach in Northern Sardinia, the letter has come from Commune di Santa Teresa Di Gallura, the prefect is in Sassari, so I do not expect a favourable response to my appeal judging from the postings above. I have actually never been to the beach, and was sat in a restaurant about 50 miles away with my hire car in the car park at the time. Difficulty is proving where you are at a given point in time. I have already been stung for a parking fine for an offence I never commited, (got charged 6 months after I came back), so got a bit annoyed at the breach of the highway code 18 months after my visit.
I have a copy of your letter so I will send this off if you recommend this is the correct course of action.
Cheers
Alistair (not Alex or Al)
Alistair,
OK! If you’re game, here’s what I would do:
(It would be pointless to send the same appeal letter to Sassari)
I would send Decision 198/1996 of the Italian Constitutional Court with the appeal letter.
Follow the advice mentioned in October 31, 2011 at 3:51 pm comment
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32050)
& October 7, 2011 at 7:22 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-31899)
I would also add in the appeal letter (after “Chiede che il provvedimento venga annullato”):
Le gentilissime signore dell’Ufficio Ricorsi per Violazioni al Codice della Strada sono pregate di:
- Rileggere attentamente l’Articolo 201,1 del Codice della strada.
La parola “accertamento”, menzionata cinque volte, si riferisce esclusivamente al giorno della violazione. Il concetto di “identificazione successiva” riguarda soltanto i residenti italiani.
- Leggere, sempre attentamente, la sentenza (gentilmente fornita) 198/1996 della Corte Costituzionale.
- Chiedere lumi ai colleghi di Roma: “Per i residenti all’estero o per i veicoli immatricolati all’estero il verbale verrà notificato entro 360 giorni dal giorno della violazione”.
http://www.comune.roma.it/wps/portal/pcr?contentId=NEW145409&jp_pagecode=newsview.wp&ahew=contentId:jp_pagecode
(Optional, but I would do it): Non vedo l’ora di ricevere “l’ordinanza motivata di archiviazione degli atti, [...], il quale ne dà notizia ai ricorrenti”. (Art. 204,1)
A proposito, si da il caso che mi trovavo a circa 50km dal luogo del “delitto” mentre questo veniva commesso.
Translation: (the) Dear Madams (not them, no!
) of the Appeals Office for violations of the Highway Code are requested to:
- Read again carefully Article 201,1 of the Highway Code.
The word “ascertainment”, mentioned five times, refers only to the day of the violation. The concept of “subsequent identification” applies only to Italian residents.
- Read, still carefully, Decision (kindly provided) 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court.
- Ask your Roman colleagues for explanations: “For foreign residents or for foreign-registered vehicles, the fine will be notified within 360 days from the date of the violation”.
http://………….
(Optional, …): I look forward to receiving “the order as to the discontinuance of the proceedings, [...], who shall inform the appellants of it”. (Art. 204,1)
By the way, it just so happens that I was about 50km away from the scene of the “crime” while it was committed.
Send your registered letter with proof of receipt to:
Al Prefetto di Sassari
Prefettura di Sassari
Ufficio Ricorsi per Violazioni al Codice della Strada
Piazza d’Italia 31
07100 Sassari
I would certainly send such an appeal letter.
What have you got to lose?
In any event, they’d never see a dime from me.
Al (not Alex Roe – Italy Chronicles publisher)
Al – nice touch. I wish I had written that in mine!
Kemiker
Hi,
I’m a silly tourist from the UK who was silly enough to think that treating my girlfriend to a trip to one of the most romantic countries in the world was something that I’d be able to do without facing repercussions. The 3 days we spent driving to many iconic cities were amazing while we were there, and continued to be an amazing memory for about 8 months afterwards… When I received 5 or 6 unofficial notices telling me I had driven down some roads I apparently wasn’t supposed to drive down in Florence. I didn’t even drive down 5 or 6 DIFFERENT roads – it was 2 or 3 different roads that I drove around in circles for a while, trying to figure out how to get back out of Florence after a lovely day there!
(
Anyway, I read this site back then and decided I’d take my chances with the 360 day thing. A full year since our now-slightly-tainted trip to Italy came and went and I promptly forgot all about the fines, assuming that with the 360 days having passed then I was out the woods.
Today, however, I was sent home from work early due to 100mph winds and general bad weather, and found one OFFICIAL “Violation Of The Highway Code” letter sitting on my doormat. No-one had been home to sign for it – it says “SIGNATURE REQUIRED” on the front of the envelope and has one of those yellow “PosteItaliane” slips attached to the back, but no-one actually signed for it.
The “date of infraction” on the letter is 30th September 2011 – which is when I was in Italy, driving around with my girlfriend and allegedly making an international criminal of myself. However there is also a “Date Of Ascertainment” of 6th December 2010 on the letter. The letter is dated 1st December 2011, the same as the postmark on the envelope, but I did not receive the letter until today (8th December 2011).
Which of these dates do I start counting the 360 days from? If it’s the date of infraction then there can be no question that 360 days have now passed – does this mean I am legally clear of my supposed obligation to pay this fine? If it’s the date of ascertainment that I count 360 days from, then am I still in the clear because I received the letter 367 days after this date, or have they JUST made the 360 day deadline (I THINK?) because it is dated and postmarked 1st December 2011?
This is all VERY confusing and VERY much a sour lemon to top off the delightful drink of Coke that was my time in Italy with my girlfriend!
( I hope you can help me find answers. Thank you for running this page and providing us crazy, wanted lawbreakers with some much-needed clarity!
Hi JC,
There’s no such thing as “a silly tourist from the UK”!
For notification purposes the relevant date is the letter (fine) sending date.
Date of infraction –> 30th September 2010
Date of Identification –> 6th December 2010
(Date at which the police receive the driver’s details from the rental company)
Date (of sending) of the official “Violation of the Highway Code” letter –> 1st December 2011
30th September 2010 –> 1st December 2011 –> 427 days!!!
Your fine(s) is/are invalid!!!
6th December 2010 –>1st December 2011 –> 360 days. How convenient!!!
According to the EMO/Florence Municipal Police (absolutely wrong) interpretation of the 360 day notification time limit, your official fine was sent out on the last day possible.
Were these 5/6 traffic violations all committed in Florence?
This official “Violation of the Highway Code” letter is for one violation. Right?
What about the other 4/5? You should receive them very soon.
In the meantime read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
And (if possible) scroll down through the last comments (since… September 2011).
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
Thanks for the clarification, and for pointing me to specific posts. I’ve tried to wade my way through the original post and as much as the comments as possible but there’s so many it’s easy to lose focus, so some pointing in the right directions is very appreciated.
So if I appeal within the next 60 days, will the fine be overturned and that’s the end of it? Or would I be just as well / better-off pretending I never received the registered letter (which no-one actually signed for) and just forgetting all about it…?
Also, does the time limit expire ON 360 days or AFTER it, as soon as we hit 361 days? I know their interpretation of the law is misleading / just straight-up wrong, and that their time to send me this registered letter was actually up 67 days… But if they tried to give me that “it’s 360 days from the ascertainment date, not the infraction date” BS, it’d be good to turn around and go “well, even if that WAS the case then you’d STILL be too late!”.
I have received only one official “Violation Of The Highway Code” letter so far, yes, and as you said I anticipate a further 5 letters for my total of 6 alleged violations to come through my door over the next few days! All six occurred within Florence, to be specific they happened at:
CSO DEI TINTORI
LNO TORRIGANI
VIA ROMANA
LNO AMERIGO VESPUCCI
LNO TORRIGANI
LNO TORRIGANI
In that order!
Thanks again for your help.
JC,
“So if I appeal within the next 60 days…”
Read November 6, 2011 at 1:58 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32098)
I’ve never heard of a British traffic offender being chased by a local debt collection agency.
Read Mark’s December 2, 2011 at 3:17 pm comment and all following comments.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32266 )
Even though you didn’t sign for the registered fine, I would still appeal and… send an email to the EMO “warning” them that I’ve lodged an appeal with the Prefect.
After 360 days without reply the appeal is deemed to be accepted. (Art. 204,1-bis – Prefect’s measures – Italian Highway Code)
“AFTER it, as soon as we hit 361 days”
“it’d be good to turn around and go “well, even if that WAS the case then you’d STILL be too late!”.”
Absolutely!!!
According to their “ascertainment” BS, all your official fines must have been sent on the 1st December 2011. If not, you write an email to the EMO “demanding” that they cancel these fines. (They’ve already done it in the past)
Write back in a few days to let me know if you have received (or not) the other 5 official fines. Then we’ll see how to go about it.
Al (not Alex)
Al
My story is similar to the above but I’m at the Cedar Financial collection at this point. Do you know if Cedar Financial in the US has placed bad credit ratings on US citizens credit reports. I have not ready anything here on the post that mentioned what has happened after Cedar Financial 30 day notice.
Thanks
“Write back in a few days to let me know if you have received (or not) the other 5 official fines. Then we’ll see how to go about it.”
A full week has now passed since I received my official notification last week, and NO furher official notifications have been received at my address since then. There can be NO question that any further notifications I receive now will DEFINITELY fall in the “more than 360 days after the ascertainment date” category, so – unless they somehow try to claim that the “ascertainment dates” of the other 5 alleged violations were a few days after the “ascertainment date” of the one they have already sent me an official notice for – I know I definitely only have one fine to contend with now! Which, in the worst case scenario that I have to pay it, is significantly less financially crippling than having to pay SIX TIMES that amount (which would have been over €1000)!
However, even though I know only have ONE fine to deal with, the fact is that the postmark of that one fine is still 427 days after the infraction date… So I don’t plan to go down without a fight! ;o)
“all your official fines must have been sent on the 1st December 2011.”
The one I have received WAS sent on 1st December 2011. Does this mean that they JUST made it on time for their (made-up) “360 days after ascertainment” deadline, or does it mean they are one day too late by their own deadline…? If they have sent it out in time then I will still appeal (because it has been 427 days since the infraction date, which is apparently what REALLY counts!), but obviously if they have missed their own deadline then that would make it a lot easier for me to just e-mail EMO directly and say “look, guys, even YOU have to admit you’re too late on this one”.
Hello Guys!
Firstly, thank you all who shares information here on this website and trying to help people. I have tried to reach all posts, but since they are quite long, ı was not able to complete reading them all.
I am also having trouble with these fine issues.
In 16-17-18th July 2011, I rented a car from Europcar agency in Como and then traveled on the following route, Como-Bologna-Siena-Florence and the way back.
Until yesterday there was no problem. However, we had realized that an amount of 145,2 € had been charged from our credit card on December 7th, 2011 which had the explanation “Europecar”.
Today (14th of December) I have called the customer service of Europe Car to ask about what it was. And the customer represantative made this calculation (145,2 / 36 = 4) which was meaning that I had had 4 fines and for each of these fines 36 euro had been deducted automatically from our account. He said me that, it was not about Europcar, but there is a 3rd party contractor which works with Italian Police and charges people 36 Euro for each violation they made. If I am not wrong, in this case, that contractor is EMO.
Anyways, it is also told to me that this 145 € cannot be received back whereas I have not even been informed about anything or gotten any mails. In this case, I will also have to pay the amount of fines when I get them, and I will not be able to receive back that 145 € :/
Maybe it has been too complicated, but I have tried to explain the situation which I am into right now in a simple way.
Do you have any idea about this problem? I would be glad if anyone can help me and clarify what I should do in the following days.
Thank yo so much,
Ozzy
Hi Ozzy,
Europcar has charged you one administration fee (for passing your details to the police) for each traffic violation. The rental Terms & Conditions allow for that.
You could try and contest the 145€ charge with your credit card issuer and explain that you haven’t received any proof of these alleged traffic violations and that you must be considered innocent until proven guilty.
In a few weeks/months you will receive from the EMO the unofficial “Notice of payment” (regular mail) followed by a “Violation of the Highway Code Notice” (registered mail).
Read the information at the top of this page (Where you staying in a hotel within a limited traffic or ZTL area?) and April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584)
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Ozzy
As Al says you should definitely contact your card issuer immediately. Explain to them that Europcar denied charging your card and said it was someone else, the EMO presumably. That “someone else” has no right to charge your card so the charges are fraudulent and should be reversed immediately. Eurpocar will eventually admit it was them when the charges get reversed but you should be insistent that nothing has been proven against you – so you’re still innocent and no charges are applicable until you are convicted.
Best
Kemiker
Hello again,
Thank you so much for your help.
I will try to do your recommendations.
I will inform you about the process.
Thanks again.
Best,
Ozzy
Hi Lineyho,
No reports of bad credit ratings! Just empty threats from Cedar Financial!
Read February 19, 2011 at 9:24 pm comment and following comments.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30124)
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Lineyho
Just ask for a copy of the Italian court order (not a notification from the EMO). A court order needs to be signed by the judge. Inform them also that they are somewhat premature in requesting payment as you are still waiting to exercise your right to a court hearing as afforded to you by:
- ECHR Article 6 §1 and
- the Italian constitution Article 24 §1.
Best
Kemiker
JC,
I know the ONE you “have received WAS sent on 1st December 2011” and it does “mean that they JUST made it on time for their (made-up) “360 days after ascertainment” deadline”.
Therefore, I would send the appeal letter (registered with proof of receipt) to:
Al Prefetto di Firenze
Prefettura di Firenze
Ufficio Ricorsi per Violazioni al Codice della Strada (Appeals office for violations of the Highway Code)
Via Antonio Giacomini 8
50132 Firenze
AND I would also send Decision 198/1996 of the Italian Constitutional Court with the appeal letter.
Follow the advice mentioned in October 31, 2011 at 3:51 pm comment
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32050)
& October 7, 2011 at 7:22 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-31899)
AND it can do no harm to send that email to the EMO “warning” them that you’ve appealed against (fine)/infraction number … with the Prefect of Florence.
Write “Al Prefetto Firenze… + full address …” also on the appeal letter.
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
“which is apparently what REALLY counts”
That word… “apparently” is superfluous! I feel offended!
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,
Writem so we’re getting down to business and sending-out letters here! I’ve tried to fill-in the template as best I can – if you can advise anywhere where I may have got confused, please advise. This is what I’m ready to send out tomorrow:
=====
Al Prefetto di Firenze, via Giacomini 8 – 50129 – Firenzi (FI),
Raccomandata A.R.
Oggetto: ricorso contro multa notificata oltre 360 giorni dal fatto.
Il/la sottoscritto/a <MY NAME), residente in , titolare del contratto di noleggio della vettura targa .
Premesso che in data 08/12/2011, ha ricevuto il verbale di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. 285, fa notare che la notifica dello stesso è avvenuta oltre 360 giorni dal fatto, estinguendo quindi l’obbligo di pagamento.
Come stabilito dall’art. 201, comma 1 del Codice della strada, nel caso di residenti all’estero, il verbale deve essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Per quanto sopra
Chiede che il provvedimento venga annullato.
Allega: fotocopia del verbale notificato.
19/12/2011
=====
^ I’ll send this out by registered mail to the address you gave in your last post, along with a printout of Decision 198/1996 of the Italian Constitutional Court and a photocopy of my notification letter. Does that look alright?
Do I also include my letter in English, or is it JUST the Italian one I send?
Thanks!
Oops… I thought I could use trinagle brackets in the comments without it being picked-up as HTML code. I was wrong, so that last post looked a total mess! Take two!:
=====
Al Prefetto di Firenze, via Giacomini 8 – 50129 – Firenzi (FI),
Raccomandata A.R.
Oggetto: ricorso contro multa notificata oltre 360 giorni dal fatto.
Il/la sottoscritto/a {MY NAME}, residente in {MY FULL ADDRESS}, titolare del contratto di noleggio della vettura targa {CAR REGISTRATION}.
Premesso che in data 08/12/2011, ha ricevuto il verbale di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. 285, fa notare che la notifica dello stesso è avvenuta oltre 360 giorni dal fatto, estinguendo quindi l’obbligo di pagamento.
Come stabilito dall’art. 201, comma 1 del Codice della strada, nel caso di residenti all’estero, il verbale deve essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Per quanto sopra
Chiede che il provvedimento venga annullato.
Allega: fotocopia del verbale notificato.
{I WILL SIGN HERE}
19/12/2011
=====
^ I’ll send this out by registered mail to the address you gave in your last post, along with a printout of Decision 198/1996 of the Italian Constitutional Court and a photocopy of my notification letter. Does that look alright?
Do I also include my letter in English, or is it JUST the Italian one I send?
Thanks!
Hi JC,
- Just use the full address I gave you in my last post. On the envelope and on the appeal letter.
The Administrative Offices are in via Giacomini 8 – 50132 Firenze, the Prefect is in via Cavour 1 – 50129 Firenze.
- “Il sottoscritto___” for a man, “La sottoscritta___” for a woman.
- “il verbale di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. ???”
The number is your (fine)/infraction NUMBER!
(The “new” Highway Code was approved with legislative decree n°285, dated 30th April 1992)
- Write “Allega: fotocopia del verbale notificato, sentenza Corte Costituzionale 10-17 giugno 1996, n. 198.”
- Enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification and Decision 198/1996 with the relevant passages highlighted:
Page 3: “Come si nota dal raffronto [...] siano stati identificati successivamente.”
Page 4: “si consentirebbe una protrazione [...] ai residenti all’estero;”
- As I’ve already written, send that email (infoemo-en@nivi.it) to the EMO.
I would simply write (in English): “I’m letting you know that I’ve appealed against (fine)/infraction number … with the Prefect of Florence”.
Hopefully it should prevent you from receiving any “last reminder” letter from the EMO.
There seems to be no coordination between the EMO and the Italian Prefectures!
Do not be concerned if you never receive a reply from the Prefect.
After 360 days without reply the appeal is deemed to be accepted.
Al (not Alex)
P.S./ I’m quite sure the Italian version of the appeal letter is more than enough!
Hey Al,
I was all set to mail off my letter today, but instead I *received* some mail – an early Christmas present from our friends in EMO, in the form of three more Violation Of The Highway Code notices! Again, no-one actually signed for these letters with “SIGNATURE REQUIRED” splashed across their envelopes. The infraction dates on them are the same as the one on the notification I received just over a week ago (2010-09-30), but SOMEHOW it took them a whole nine days longer to identify me for these ones and they have a different date of ascertainment from the first one – the three I received today all have ascertainment dates of 2010-12-15! And, BY COSMIC COINCIDENCE, they are all also postmarked 07.12.11 – 357 days after the infraction date! How convenient that these letters, which were sent out later, also happened to have slightly later ascertainment dates! Haha. If that isn’t proof that the “ascertainment date” is a crock of crap, I don’t know what is. Do EMO expect us to believe that it took them more than a week longer to identify me as the same driver of the same car on the same day as the incident they already sent me a notice about? I think I still have two more official Violation Of The Highway Code letters left to receive, as I’ve now received 4 in total but I received 6 “notification of notification” letters a few months back. What’s to stop them from sending those last two letters about 30 years from now, claiming it took them that long to “ascertain” my identity?
Ridiculous!
ANYWAY, as more letters continue to flood in, can you recommend how I can notify my appeal letter appropriately? This is my updated letter:
=====
Al Prefetto di Firenze, via Giacomini 8 – 50129 – Firenzi (FI),
Raccomandata A.R.
Oggetto: ricorso contro multa notificata oltre 360 giorni dal fatto.
Il sottoscritto {MY NAME}, residente in {MY FULL ADDRESS}, titolare del contratto di noleggio della vettura targa {CAR REGISTRATION}.
Premesso che in data 08/12/2011, ha ricevuto il verbale di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. {XXXXXX/XX}, fa notare che la notifica dello stesso è avvenuta oltre 360 giorni dal fatto, estinguendo quindi l’obbligo di pagamento.
Come stabilito dall’art. 201, comma 1 del Codice della strada, nel caso di residenti all’estero, il verbale deve essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Per quanto sopra
Chiede che il provvedimento venga annullato.
Allega: fotocopia del verbale notificato, sentenza Corte Costituzionale 10-17 giugno 1996, n. 198.
{I WILL SIGN HERE}
XX/12/2011
=====
Again, I will send this out by registered mail and include photocopies of all notification letters as well as a printout of Decision 198/1996 of the Italian Constitutional Court. I know you mentioned something about changing the salutation, but the letters state “Your appeal must be written in Italian and sent to the Prefect of FIRENZE, VIA GIACOINI 8 – 50129 – FIRENZE (F)” so should I not address it and send it to there?
Thanks again!
In my previous post, “can you recommend how I can notify my appeal letter appropriately?” should say “can you recommend how I can MODIFY my appeal letter appropriately?”. Oops! The kind of modifications I’ll need to make will be just to add that I received three further letters on 19/12/2011, and that I’ll be providing more than one reference number.
Or do you think I should maybe just write up one letter per “Violation Of The Highway Code” report, instead of lumping them all into one…?
Ciao JC,
You said it all!
Same rental car, same infraction date, also same kind of violation (ZTL)!
I find it very difficult to believe that the Florentine police didn’t send the 6 fines on the same day, probably in one envelope. And that the car rental company didn’t inform the police with just one letter.
Unless…? Your 6 infractions were committed in four different places. Are the last three fines all for Lno Torrigani by any chance?
You never wrote about being charged for the admin fees by the rental company. It would be interesting to ask them when they did send your details to the police.
Maybe we could catch the EMO in a lie?
Unless I have undeniable proof, I will keep on believing in “cosmic coincidences”.
Anyway, just one letter of appeal for the 4/6 fines. Same grounds: over 360 days, same town (Prefect): Florence.
Modifications (plural for 4/6 fines!):
“Oggetto: ricorso contro multe notificate oltre 360 giorni dai fatti.”
“Premesso che in data 08/12/2011, 19/12/2011, ..?.., ha ricevuto i verbali di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. {XXXXXX/10}, n. {YYYYYY/10}, n. 3rd fine, …, fa notare che le notifiche degli stessi sono avvenute oltre 360 giorni dai fatti, estinguendo quindi l’obbligo di pagamento.”
“Chiede che i provvedimenti vengano annullati.”
”Allega: fotocopie dei verbali notificati, sentenza Corte…”
Read August 21, 2010 at 9:58 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-28764)
And why don’t you add (for these crooks in the Florentine Prefecture) what I suggested to Alistair in December 10, 2011 at 10:52 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32355)
Just two changes:
1) Instead of: “Le gentilissime signore dell’Ufficio Ricorsi per Violazioni al Codice della Strada sono pregate di:”
–> “I gentilissimi addetti (people in charge of) dell’Ufficio Ricorsi per Violazioni al Codice della Strada sono pregati di:”
2) Naturally do not write “A proposito […]commesso.”
Read Mark’s December 6, 2011 at 12:15 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32296)
JC, we’re not going to “quarrel” about the address!
All I can tell you is that “via Giacomini 8” is in 50132 (not 50129) Firenze (not “Firenzi” like you wrote in your last post).
And that the Prefecture is in via Cavour 1 – 50129 Firenze.
As long as your registered letter of appeal with proof of receipt “reaches the desired port”…
You should wait another two/three weeks for the last two official violations letters to arrive before sending the appeal letter.
Probably with a third (and fourth) ascertainment date(s)?
I do hope you’ll be able to stay afloat among this deluge of “thank you (for visiting one of the most romantic cities on earth) letters” from Florence!
Al (not Alex)
Hey Al. Merry Christmas!
Haha.
^ Now that I write that, I wonder what the Italian for “Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year” is? I’s almost be tempted to write that at the bottom of my appeal letter.
On that note, I plan to send that some time this week, before 2011 is over, just because it makes it easier to remember when I sent it offhand for my own future reference. Here is my latest draft, with the revisions you have advised:
=====
Al Prefetto di Firenze, via Giacomini 8 – 50132 Firenze (FI),
Raccomandata A.R.
Oggetto: ricorso contro multe notificate oltre 360 giorni dai fatti.
Il sottoscritto {MY NAME}, residente in {MY FULL ADDRESS}, titolare del contratto di noleggio della vettura targa {CAR REGISTRATION}.
Premesso che in data 08/12/2011, 19/12/2011, 20/12/2011, 23/12/2011 ha ricevuto i verbali di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. XXXXXXX/10, n. XXXXXXX/10, n. XXXXXXX/10, n. XXXXXXX/10, n. XXXXXXX/10, n. XXXXXXX/10, fa notare che le notifiche degli stessi sono avvenute oltre 360 giorni dai fatti, estinguendo quindi l’obbligo di pagamento.
Come stabilito dall’art. 201, comma 1 del Codice della strada, nel caso di residenti all’estero, il verbale deve essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Per quanto sopra
Chiede che i provvedimenti vengano annullati.
Allega: fotocopie dei verbali notificati, sentenza Corte Costituzionale 10-17 giugno 1996, n. 198.
I gentilissimi addetti (people in charge of) dell’Ufficio Ricorsi per Violazioni al Codice della Strada sono pregati di: :
- Rileggere attentamente l’Articolo 201,1 del Codice della strada.
La parola “accertamento”, menzionata cinque volte, si riferisce esclusivamente al giorno della violazione. Il concetto di “identificazione successiva” riguarda soltanto i residenti italiani.
- Leggere, sempre attentamente, la sentenza (gentilmente fornita) 198/1996 della Corte Costituzionale.
- Chiedere lumi ai colleghi di Roma: “Per i residenti all’estero o per i veicoli immatricolati all’estero il verbale verrà notificato entro 360 giorni dal giorno della violazione”.
http://www.comune.roma.it/wps/portal/pcr?contentId=NEW145409&jp_pagecode=newsview.wp&ahew=contentId:jp_pagecode
Non vedo l’ora di ricevere “l’ordinanza motivata di archiviazione degli atti, [...], il quale ne dà notizia ai ricorrenti”. (Art. 204,1)
{I WILL SIGN HERE}
XX/12/2011
=====
What’s the deal with the “[...]” at the end? Is there something I should fill in there…?
As always, I will send this out by registered mail and include photocopies of all notification letters as well as a printout of Decision 198/1996 of the Italian Constitutional Court!
Cheers!
UPDATE: Another day, another Violation Of The Highway Code letter. That’s 5 in total, with 1 more expected! This is like the world’s most rubbish advent calendar, haha.
The letter I received today had the same details as the three received yesterday – infraction date 2010-09-30, ascertainment date 2010-12-15, postmark 07 12 11. Again, the same infraction date as the one letter I received just over a week again but a different ascertainment date and postmark from that one.
Hi JC,
Buon Natale e Felice Anno Nuovo!
Perfect! Except for:
- Do not write “(people in charge of)”. That’s just the translation of the Italian word “addetti”.
- Move “Allega: fotocopie dei verbali notificati, sentenza Corte Costituzionale 10-17 giugno 1996, n. 198.” lower down, just over your signature.
The “[...]” indicates a break in a quotation which is not being reported in full. If they want to read the whole sentence, they can look it up in the Highway Code.
Highlight the relevant passages in Decision 198/1996.
Send that email to the EMO about your appeal.
If you ever receive a response, come back to report it on this blog.
I wouldn’t wait by the mailbox!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi,
I received two notifications (notifications are still to come, Avis have taken their admin charge 30 euros each and sent the paperwork) for a limited zone in both Cararra and Lerici – which are fine (pun intended). I except my international panic driving took me down one, the other I had no idea until my credit card started being charged. I’ll wait to see if the authorities take longer than 365 days to send the official fine… but seeing as they’ve got seven months to send them, I don’t fancy my chances!
But regardless, I was also able to get myself a parking ticket, which I paid the next day at the post office (39 euros). My complaint is I’ve also received a notification for this! Meaning Avis have charged an admin fee to supply my details to the authorities, for a fine (they now want 97 euros) which was paid in the country. I realise I can defend my fine as I still have the receipts, but who can I claim the admin fee back from – or is this just more Christmas bad luck?
Many Thanks,
Jon
Hi Jon
The admin fees charged to your credit card need to be reversed by your card issuer. Call them and explain that the charges are unfounded until a conviction has been obtained against you which is unlikely since this is a well known scam and these cases never go to court. Avis are entitled to the money as procedural costs only after the case against you has been proven. Nobody has to pay for the priviledge of having been accused of a misdemeanour.
Best
Kemiker
Hi Jon,
You should reclaim the admin fee from Avis and provide them with a copy of the receipt.
And you can also ask your credit card issuer to reverse the admin charge as unsubstantiated because, as you rightly write, there was no need to supply your details to the authorities for a fine which was already paid!
Avis should ask the Italian police to be refunded for wasting their time!
Best,
Al (not Alex)
My husband abd I visited Italy in April of 2008. We rented a car in Rome and drove all the way to the Northern border of Italy. We received a ticket somettime in 2010 which we did not pay as it stated we “circulated on roads reserved to other vehicles and indicated by traffic signs”. Of course they were written in Italian and of course the rental company failed to mention this. We had already cancelled the credit card we had used to rent the car as it had been misplaced or something so we really did not think anything would come of it. Then the phone call came 6 months later from an American collection company hired by the Italian government, so we were told. If we did not pay the ridiculous fee of some now $600.00 dollars it would be reported to the American credit agencies. They offered to reduce the fee in half which we paid just to end the mess and continued hassle. Assummed (yes I know that just makes an ass out of you and me) it was a finished deal but NO. The first week of December 2011 we received 2 more tickets for infractions on the same day at the same place, one at 7 AM and one at the exact same place at 11:24 PM for the exact same thing. They came in our regular mail and of course had no photo enclosed. I have no intention of returning to Italy anytime in the near or distant future. This feels like a scam made by a country who everyone now knows is in desperate need of money! We are obviously way beyond the 360 day time limit and Iwe would not even consider paying these except for those pesky collection agency folks who after reading these posts we are thinking were not even allowed to collect. Thoughts, suggestions? The letter was dated 11/24/2011 so I have a few more weeks left to respond if necessary.
Hi Sarah,
“They offered to reduce the fee in half which we paid just to end the mess and continued hassle.”
I’d rather not comment!
Are the letters you received the first week of December the unofficial notices (“Notice of payment before notification”) or the official notices (“Notification of Violation of the Highway Code”)?
The official notice mentions that you can appeal to the Prefect of … or the Justice of the Peace of … within 60 days …
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al,(not Alex):)
Thanks for responding. They are the Violation of the Highway Code but they were not sent registered mail. Just arrived in my mailbox. I was able to obtain the pictures on the Florence website. All you can see is the license plate and headlights of the car. Through my search on the web I found that Florence prohibits cars without permits from entering the city from 7:30 AM – 7:30 PM. The time of our infractions as noted on the tickets was 00:07:00 and 23:24:00. Coupled with being outside of the 360 day notification period and the prohibited time frame I am feeling like this is all just WRONG! What to do? I also received 2 yellow Posteitaliane with the letter of violation written totally in Italian. They were inside the envelopes and I have no idea what they are. I am willing to call, write, whatever if you think I have a leg to stand on.
Thanks,
Sarah
Hi Sarah
Do not pay anything. It is totally unacceptable that these things are turning up after 3 years and it’s only because you paid the first one. If they are in Italian then they are not valid in any way. Don’t worry about debt collectors for now, they are lying, they do not, and may not, act on the behalf of the Italian Government. If you hear anything to that effect from debt collectors ask for the court order mandating payment signed by an Italian judge together with all communication from the Italian Government. Inform them also that they are somewhat premature in requesting payment as you are still waiting to exercise your right to a court hearing as afforded to you by:
- ECHR Article 6 §1 and
- the Italian constitution Article 24 §1.
If the Italian Government had a problem with you they would not contact you through a debt collection agency!! It would be through the relevant embassies who now need to be contacted as a matter of urgency to bring this sorry mess to an abrupt stop.
Best
Kemiker
Kemiker,
Good to know. Just to cover every base I am sending today a registered letter written in English and Italian to the Justice of the Peace of Firenze and the Prefect of Firenze. I am within my 60 days and I WILL NOT give them any excuses. Wonder if I will ever hear back!:)
Thanks,
Sarah
Sarah,
Wait!!!
It does not make sense to send registered letters to both the Justice of the Peace of Firenze and the Prefect of Firenze!
First answer the following question: Do the two letters mention a “date of ascertainment “?
(Date at which the police receive the driver’s details from the rental company)
There’s also a “ZTL notturna” (night-time limited traffic zone) in Florence
Usually from the end of May to the end of September, Thursday through Saturday, 11pm to 3am. Time of your infractions: 11:24 pm and 00:07 am.
The yellow Poste italiane slip is the proof of receipt (registered mail) which should be detached from… the back of the envelope and returned to Italy with your signature on it.
In Italy, for privacy reasons, photographic evidence identifying the offending driver is prohibited. Such pictures are allowed only if taken by laser speed gun and if the traffic offender is pulled up by the police on the spot. Photographs are never attached to the fines. They can be viewed on-line or at the police station.
Al (not Alex Roe – Italy Chronicles publisher)
Al,
You caught me right before I left for the post office so I will only send the letter to the Perfect. I did not sign the Poste italiane slip because it was INSIDE the envelope since it did not arrive registered mail.. I thought it seemed strange as it looked like our receipt for registered mail that we use in the USA but since it was inside and not outside and was in my mailbox I thought I must be mistaken. Maybe I will just hang on to it for now. It only has my husbands name and address on it with the box Raccomandato checked, a couple of numbered sequences after No invio and a return address to the Corpo Di Polizia Municipale Di Frienze. There is a place for a signature but I was not asked by my postal carrier to sign it since it was not on the outside of the envelope. Very strange. I will wait to hear back from the Perfect (if ever) and hope they follow the letter of the law:)
As always I very much appreciate your knowledge and advice.
Sarah
Dear Al,
How sneaky that they would put the date of ascertainment at 11-30-2010 and send me this letter dated 11-24-2011. So they already had my info since they sent me a ticket in 2009 or 2010 (honestly I can not remember. I just recall thinking that it had been a very long time since we had actually been in Italy) but could not find our info again until November of 2011. That is quite amazing. I wish now I had kept that ticket:( We came back from Italy in April of 2008 so what is up with the date of ascertainment? Do I understand correctly that the date of ascertainment is the date of the infraction not the date they receive information from the rental agency?
Confused more than ever,
Sarah
And FYI in case you were wondering we used the same car the entire time we were in Italy so it is not like they had to go hunting for our info.
Sarah
Sarah, what is the date of the infraction, it’s directly above the date of ascertainment? Which rental company did you use – you need to contact them and find out exactly when your credit card was charged for these offences. Check your credit card bills. The EMO are clearly fabricating the evidence. Also you should email the EMO and let them know that the date of ascertainment is incorrect. According to the law it is the same as the date of the infraction for foreigners. The municipality of Rome correctly applies the law, the municipality of Florence does not. The EMO acts for both municipalities so it knows what the law is. Remind them that even using Florence’s incorrect interpretation of the law, the date at which you were subsequently identified as the driver of the vehicle during that time period cannot be later than the date of ascertainment from the first offence which you have already paid! The information sent to the police contains the rental period, so you had been identified as the driver during that time period when the first police enquiry was made. The police already had the information at hand when the remaining fines were issued. Finally demand that the fines are cancelled on these grounds. Please keep all documentation (including envelopes with date stamps) and please don’t write anything to the Italians without getting advice here first – you’ll end up burning your legal avenues. Your case is the most disgraceful of all those posted on this blog and we need to use it to put a stop to this. If the EMO won’t cancel the fines we need to make representations to the relevant embassies.
Best
Kemiker
Dear All,
I read on a particular website that “The recipient of the ticket has 60 days to pay or appeal. If you don’t pay, the amount is doubled. Italians usually pay and then appeal” http://www.initaly.com/travel/avoid_tickets.htm
What are the chances of paying the traffic fine and appeal later with the hope of receiving a refund??
Is this realistic?
Thanks
Joe
Hi Joe,
“What are the chances of paying the traffic fine and appeal later with the hope of receiving a refund??”
Appeal to the Prefect
If you pay the fine, you admit your guilt. An appeal is then considered inadmissible.
If you don’t pay or don’t appeal within 60 days, the amount is roughly doubled.
Appeal to the Justice of the Peace
You are required to pay beforehand 37€, you are supposed to attend the hearing (or get someone to attend),…
If you don’t pay the fine within 60 days and loose the appeal, the amount is roughly doubled.
In your letter of appeal you can ask the Justice of the Peace to suspend the payment pending the result of the hearing. However, he must rule (accept) on the suspension before the 60 days expire. Good luck with that!
So, you pay the reduced fine and wait for the hearing. Remember! Patience is a virtue!
If you loose the appeal, the Justice of the Peace can order you to pay the reduced fine, the fine doubled or any amount in between.
If you win… you then ask (politely) to be refunded of the amount of the reduced fine, cost of proceedings… And don’t forget the 37€! Swiftly, if possible!
Again! Good luck with that!
Al
Sarah,
You used the same car, but was the 2009 or 2010 ticket also for a traffic violation committed in Florence? Or in another city?
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) CLEARLY mentions the word “ascertainment” in reference to the date of the infraction.
==> The ascertainment of the traffic violation by means of a traffic camera, speed radar, …on the day it was committed!
Hence date of ascertainment = date of the infraction!
But the EMO purposely mislead foreign traffic offenders and claim that the word “ascertainment” can also refer to the ascertainment of your identity (the date the police receive your details from the rental company).
Moreover they seem to be conveniently pushing the “identification date” back further!
I know the Poste italiane slip was INSIDE the envelope.
You were perfectly clear the first time. They were negligent, that’s all!
Send an email to the EMO (infoemo-en@nivi.it) to inform them that you’ve appealed against (fine)/infraction number … with the Prefect of Florence.
Al
Hi, Thanks for all the helpful advice!
I’ve got a couple of questions which I don’t think are covered above.
I recently received a “Violation of the Highway Code report” for a speeding violation in Florence in a hire car which occurred September 2010. (Which I might have committed, I was near the area at the time, but am not sure if I was at the exact spot.)
a) The letter refers to photographic proof on http://www.poliziamunicipale.fl.it, however after entering details on that site I just get “Sono visibili i verbali spediti dal 31/03/2011 al 29/12/2011” (“You can see the reports sent from 31/03/2011 to 29/12/2011″). It seems dubious to me if such a notification is valid without such proof?
b) In any case, the violation report was received well after 360 days of the violation so I am planning to ask EMO to cancel the penalty, or to appeal to the Prefect. However I also received a form for driving licence details. I’m wondering whether I have to fill this in anyway?
It’s a bit odd – it looks like this would be the form sent to the rental company. But I naturally don’t want to incur a penalty for non-return of a form. The wording is below (abbreviated):-
“Form enclosed to report number [xxx] issued on [xxx] for the violation/s of the art.8 of C.D.S. sent on [xxx]
The violation of the aforementioned report involves the deduction of n.3 penalty points from the licence of the actual driver at the moment of the infringement. In case of failure of identity, the owner or one of the other persons referred to art. 196 Cd.S must communicate to the Police within 60 days from the request, the personal data and details of the driving licence of whoever was driving the vehicle at the moment of the infringement. If the owner turns to be a legal person such obligations are due by a legal representative of the delegate.
As per above you are kindly asked to return the form duly filled and signed within 60 days from the receipt of the notification of the above mentioned report to [xxx] …
…The information should be communicated even if there is the intention to lodge an appeal to the Prefect or to the Justice of Peace. …
If the owner or one of the other persons … omit to provide the requested information .. not enough to trace the driver of the vehicle, is then subject to an administrative sanction from Euro 269,00 up to Euro 1075,00 ….”
Now they already have my driving licence details off the rental company, so I can’t see why they need it again, unless it’s to allow me to claim someone else was driving? What do you think?
Thanks,
Andrew
Hi Andrew
Send the appeal as above. The Italian police can not put points on a UK driving licence so I would just return the form with your name on it and the issuing country of your licence. Add that the exercise is superfluous because the fine is invalid due to a) lack of evidence, b) the time limit and c) the fact that you hold a foreign licence. You have already been identified as a foreign resident otherwise you would have heard from the police directly and not the EMO. So I would also ask them to stop wasting your time.
Best
Kemiker
Hi Andrew,
“It’s a bit odd – it looks like this would be the form sent to the rental company”
Because, on http://news.comune.fi.it/autovelox/, you must enter the notice number of the fine sent to the rental company (presumably between 31/03/2011 and 29/12/2011).
- Fine/report number (only the number without letter(s) and year)
- Infraction date: “xx/09/2010”
- Licence plate
Your case is the same as Neil’s.
) might have been driving at the time of the violation.
Read January 24, 2011 at 8:42 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-29876)
They have your driving licence details because you were the holder of the rental agreement but someone else (mistress,…?
Anyway, the 3 point deduction applies only in Italy.
Fill in that form, sign it and send it REGISTERED with proof of receipt.
The address mentioned is: Polizia Municipale del Comune di Firenze, N.O. Verbali e Notifiche, Via delle Cascine 9, 50144 Firenze. Right?
The violation report was SENT well after 360 days of the violation!
No use in asking EMO to cancel the fine!
Scroll down through the last comments (since… September 2011).
Send the appeal letter (registered with proof of receipt) to the Prefect.
Read November 9, 2011 at 3:15 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32124)
Read December 18, 2011 at 5:21 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32410)
Best,
Al
Hi
My husband is yet another of the unfortuate drivers to fall foul of driving rules in Florence. We have received a Violation of the Highway Code notice – (which we did not sign for) for a speeding infraction on 01 09 2010, ascertainment 14 12 2010, posted on 24 11 2011. It is from emo and demands 208.60 euro.
I have read masses of the posts on this website and the appeal to the prefect seems worth a try. However after all the reading I seem to have gone word blind as I can’t see where the suggested letter of appeal is?! Please can someone direct me to the right place. My husbands view is that he won’t set foot in Italy for the next 5 years, but that would be a shame!
Thanks
Linda
Hi Linda,
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
You received the Violation of the Highway Code Notice at the end of November.
Remember that you have 60 days to appeal to the Prefect. Mention a “suitable” date on the appeal letter.
Read December 16, 2011 at 1:27 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32394).
Send Decision 198/1996 of the Italian Constitutional Court with the appeal letter.
Send an email to the EMO (infoemo-en@nivi.it) to inform them that you’ve appealed against (fine)/infraction number … with the Prefect of Florence.
Best,
Al
Hi,
I appreciate all of the great advice. I apologize if you have covered this exact question and I’ve tried to find the answer in all of the posts, but got bogged down after the first 50 or so. I’ve just gotten a Payment Deadline Reminder for a speeding ticket. The date of the infraction is 9/16/2010 and the date of ascertainment is 10/18/2010. They are claiming that on 10/13/2011 I was notified of the fine and have 60 days to pay or appeal. I never received any notification, nor did I sign for anything. I travel quite a bit and after returning from a trip and picking up my mail, I did have a notice for a letter that I had to sign for. But because I came back a couple of weeks after it arrived, they had sent the letter back. So my question is, where do I stand if they had sent out an official letter, but I wasn’t here sign for it, does it still fall within the 360 days? I find it interesting that they claim that the letter went out at exactly 360 days. I do go to Italy once or twice a year and I do rent cars. I have been back twice since they claim that I got the ticket, with no problem, but I can’t afford anything happening in the future because I lead groups. I also don’t want to pay a $350 ticket if I don’t have to. Any suggestions as to my options, can I appeal on those grounds, also, it is past the 60 days from when they said they notified me, can I still appeal?
Thanks
Scott
Hi Scott,
Your fine is invalid because it was sent out over 360 days after the date of infraction!
I do believe that they sent you the official (registered) notification dated 10/13/2011.
But they don’t have a signed receipt from you, which means that you haven’t been formally notified.
They do not bother to send a second official (registered) notice.
Instead, you receive an unregistered “last reminder” letter, and they then sell your “debt” to a US collection agency called Cedar Financial.
Read February 19, 2011 at 9:24 pm comment and following comments.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30124)
Don’t waste your time with Cedar Financial. Just ignore them!
And nothing will happen if you return to Italy and rent cars.
Best,
Al
Thanks Al, this has been a wealth of information. It looks like I have dodged one bullet, now I’ll wait to see if I get the other shot from Cedar Financial. I guess it’s a good thing that I have caller Id and don’t answer the phone. It will be interesting to see posts of what others have to say about their dealing with them. Thanks again for such a great resource!
Scott
Dear Al,
Thanks for your reply.
Today I received from EMO a copy of the official notification. (the original did not reach me)
Its date is 2011-10-27 and as “date of ascertainment” is given 2010-11-02 as if this was the date when the police received my personal date from the car rental company. Just 359 days are between the two dates. The infraction itself happened on 2010-09-30. From which date starts the period of 360 days?
Could you please tell me whether the Italian “Highway Code” is somewhere available on the web in English?
Best regards
Gaby
Gaby,
- Article 201,1 (Violations Notification) states very clearly that the 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the infraction but the EMO conveniently misreads it as being 360 days from the date of your “identification”.
- Not to my knowledge.
Your fine is invalid! Don’t waste your time with the EMO! Or with Cedar Financial, if they contact you in the future!
Al
Dear Al
I could find a friend who speaks Italian and explained me the contents of Art 301, 1.
Unfortunately the text in paragraph 1 (see below) uses for the date from that the 360 days time limit starts the words indentification (identificatione) and accertainment (accertamento) of the person who made the traffic violation.
Qualora l’effettivo trasgressore od altro dei soggetti obbligati sia identificato successivamente alla commissione della violazione la notificazione può essere effettuata agli stessi entro novanta giorni dalla data in cui risultino dai pubblici registri o nell’archivio nazionale dei veicoli l’intestazione del veicolo e le altre indicazioni identificative degli interessati o comunque dalla data in cui la pubblica amministrazione è posta in grado di provvedere alla loro i d e n t i f i c a z i o n e. Per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’a c c e r t a m e n t o.
If I accept his translation and explanation we both have to reconsider the situation. The notification on the 359th day from the identification is still within the time limit. The only question in my case is that if I did not receive it by registered post but only a copy per e-mail some three months later should I consider this copy as if I would have been really and officially notified. Or to refuse telling that it is very nice and the date is within the time limit but sorry it is not a way of offical notification so I can’t accept it.
Best regards
Gaby
Came across this great site when I searching for time limits for these fines. I have received three invoices from AVIS charging me the administration fee for passing on my details to the police. Two of them are for the infamous Restricted Traffic Zone and one for No Parking which, incidentally, I cannot understand as I was always very careful with parking and never received a ticket. I have not as yet had any notification from the Italian police. The three “offences” were between the 1st and 6th September and I have just received these invoices although they are dated from the 13th to the 28th of December. I have emailed AVIS to supply me with the dates of the requests and the dates that they supplied the information. What I haven’t quite understood from the information here is if there is a time limit for the police to request the information from the hire company. If the dates of the invoices they have sent me are at all close to the dates that the information was requested they are all over 90 days. From this piece in the information above “Al states that the time limit for the sending out of notices to drivers who are not resident in Italy is 360 days from the date the offence was committed – not, as had been my previous interpretation, 360 days, plus the 60 days which is often used to ‘identify’ the driver of a hire/rental car.” Is the 60 days to identify the driver a time limit?
Thanks
Nick
Hi Nick,
There’s no concept of “subsequent identification” for foreign residents.
In order to be validly notified, the official (registered) notification (from the Italian police) must be sent out within 360 days from the date of the infraction.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
Best,
Al
Hi Al
Thanks for the reply. Does this mean that had an Italian national been the hirer of the vehicle then they would have already been out of time as the didn’t request the details till after 90 days?
Hi Nick,
It all depends when the police sent the fines (requesting the details) to AVIS. Before early September + 90 days?
You’d have to ask AVIS to send you the “original fines” (written in Italian) they received from the Italian police.
Al
hello. i have a problem with Comune di Milano Polizia Locale.
i was alegedly caught violating a bus lane in milan 2010-07-25. they say they ascertained it “was me” 2010-10-26 and i received the letter 2011-27-10 (the envelope says this). i didn t searched this earlier cause in greece we ignore these stuff. but today i woke up with an anxiety about this matter. as i read above i should have send an appeal within two months from getting this notification. what do i do now? please conssider that i don t speak english or italian and my more literate brother is writing this. so how could i understand what this letter of milan means.
oh i forgot. it starts like a normal violation of the highway code but it ends with: “important: the police department has delegated Nivi credit s.r.i. div. european municipality outsourcing, Via o. de pordenone 14-20 50127 firenze- italy to carry out all the operations relative to this case with contract Procura Speciale.”
Hi George,
What do you do now? Nothing!
As you wrote, it’s too late to appeal.
Anyway, your fine was invalid! It was sent over 360 days after the date of the traffic violation.
Best,
Al
i have some leads with the greek post office as i am a stamp collector. would you think using them has any meaning or am i covered either way? thx for the very fast answer and i hope you do well in every aspect of your life. if by any chance you come to greece apostolopoulos.ee@gmail.com is my email address
thx again
trully indebted
george
Dear Al
My case is similar.
I circulated with a rented car in the limited traffic area in Florence on 2010-09-30.
The car renting company informed the police that I was the driver in December. After that at the and of January 2011 I received (with ordinary post) a letter dated 2011-01-21 from Nivi Credit Srl. with the title “Notice of Payment” about 105,95 EUR. At the end of the letter it was mentioned the “The present notice is not a Notificationof violation and therefore it permits the receiver to make the due payment in amicable circumstances.”
I did not pay but was waiting for the official Notification from the Police.
Few days ago I received a new letter dated 2012-01-30 from Nivi Credit Srl. The title of the letter is “Payment deadline reminder” and the letter tells me that
“on the 2011-10-27 you have been notified of a fine issued by the Council of CORPO DI POLIZIA MUNICIPALE DI FIRENZE for a totel of € 110,75 to be paid within 60 days from the date of receipt. Then penalty for non payment within the time limit is the double of the sum as provided for by the article 202 of the Italian Highway code.”
Unfortunately (or luckily?) it did nor receive the above mentioned letter that was probably the official Notification. Imaginable that it was sent but I did not stay at home for several weeks in October and November.
What should I do now?
If the 360 days time limit starts with the date of the infraction the not received official Notification was issued late. If however the 360 days time limit starts with the date when the police got informed about the data of the driver the Notification was issued probably still in time. Does it matter in this case that I did not receive it? Will it be considered as delivered even if it did not come to my hands?
Best thanks
Dear Gaby,
Same answer as the one I gave to Scott.
Read January 24, 2012 at 12:40 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32744)
Best,
Al
Hi George
Just ignore it. ECHR requires the fines to be sent in a language that you understand. You are not obliged to get a translation, or even ask for one. If anybody ever comes after you quote the European Convention on Human Rights, Article 6 §3a. You can find it in Greek here:
http://www.echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyres/E4317264-DB27-42FE-873E-1ECCACABB045/0/GRE_CONV.pdf
If you are feeling funny you could write back to the EMO “No English, no Italian, ONLY GREEK”
When the official notification comes, the registered one with the yellow receipt on it, you must refuse to accept it on the grounds that you do not understand it and you are exercising your rights in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 1393/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 13 November 2007 on the service in the Member States of judicial and extrajudicial documents in civil or commercial matters . This is the law that they are using in order to be able to claim that what they are doing is legal. You can find it here:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32007R1393:EN:HTML
or here in Greek.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32007R1393:EL:HTML
Scroll down the page to Annex II and find the declaration in Greek:
Το συνημμένο έγγραφο σας επιδίδεται ή κοινοποιείται σύμφωνα με τον κανονισμό (ΕΚ) αριθ. 1393/2007 του Ευρωπαϊκού Κοινοβουλίου και του Συμβουλίου περί επιδόσεως και κοινοποιήσεως στα κράτη μέλη δικαστικών και εξωδίκων πράξεων σε αστικές ή εμπορικές υποθέσεις.
Έχετε δικαίωμα να αρνηθείτε την παραλαβή της πράξης εφόσον δεν είναι συνταγμένη ή δεν συνοδεύεται από μετάφραση σε γλώσσα την οποία κατανοείτε ή στην επίσημη γλώσσα ή σε μία από τις επίσημες γλώσσες του τόπου επίδοσης ή κοινοποίησης.
Εάν επιθυμείτε να ασκήσετε αυτό το δικαίωμα, πρέπει είτε να δηλώσετε την άρνηση παραλαβής κατά τη χρονική στιγμή της επίδοσης ή κοινοποίησης απευθείας στο πρόσωπο που επιδίδει ή κοινοποιεί την πράξη, είτε να την επιστρέψετε εντός μιας εβδομάδας στη διεύθυνση που αναφέρεται κατωτέρω, δηλώνοντας ότι αρνείστε την παραλαβή της.
the English version reads as follows:
“The enclosed document is served in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 1393/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council on the service in the Member States of judicial and extrajudicial documents in civil or commercial matters. You may refuse to accept the document if it is not written in or accompanied by a translation into either a language which you understand or the official language or one of the official languages of the place of service.
If you wish to exercise this right, you must refuse to accept the document at the time of service directly with the person serving the document or return it to the address indicated below within one week stating that you refuse to accept it.”
Best
Kemiker
well to answer to this, i have frequent letters from abroad, because i buy stamps on ebay. so i couldn t know that it was the fine
so i was stupid enough not to say “recipient unknown” and to let them trying to find me. and i think that is the better solution.. but i thought of it 5 mins after getting and signing the paper.. anyways, i really really thank you too, and i hope you come to greece to let me repay my knowledge about my country and extend my famous greek hospitality
Alex and Al
First a word of appreciation for this very useful forum. Its helpful information and level-headed advice are exemplary.
My main reason for posting is to recount my experience (so far) of appealing to the Prefect; and ask for suggestions for my next step.
I fell foul of the Florence ZTR on 17 April 2009 in a hire car. I received my ‘Notice of Payment Before Notification’ in June 2010 (it is dated 28 May – already past 360 days), and my formal violation notice is dated 15 July 2010. I then used the pro-forma letter provided by Al to appeal the fine on the grounds that the allowed 360 days had elapsed. This was posted on 7 August 2010 and followed by a long silence (as you suggested it would be!).
However, I have today received a letter (in English) from the Florence police covering a legal ruling (in Italian) from the Prefect rejecting my appeal, and asking for payment of an increased fine (total now 192 euros).
So far as I can make out the Prefect’s reason for rejection is very vague: “le circostanze esposte non contengono elementi tali da invalidare l’accertamento”, which Babelfish renders as “the exposed circumstances do not contain such elements to invalidate l’ assessment”.
l am in two minds how to proceed. I suspect the mature choice is to cut my losses and pay up, but I am also affronted by the (apparent) bland contradiction of a clear cut case. It adds insult to injury that the Prefect’s own response to the appeal has ignored the time limits on this process!
Today’s letter says I have 60 days from the notification date (10 Feb according to postmark) to appeal to the Florence Justice of the Peace. Should I go down this route? Could I do so in English and without legal representation?
Any thoughts from yourselves or other posters would be welcome.
Thanks and best wishes
John
Hi John,
The mature choice is to send them packing!!!
1) As you know, your formal violation notice was sent well over 360 days after the date of the traffic violation.
2) Furthermore, as you wrote, the Prefect didn’t issue the payment injunction within the 210 day time limit or didn’t notify it within 150 days after its adoption.
Read May 6, 2011 at 6:37 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30786)
3) If you’re right – and that’s the only “explanation” they give – then, they do not go into the merit of the issue itself. Which is “understandable”, seeing that they’re dead wrong about the 360 day notification time limit.
But a Prefect can decide to reject your appeal, ignoring completely your arguments. This does not constitute sufficient cause for invalidating the fine when you appeal against his decision before the Justice of the Peace.
Why? Because you can still present these same arguments to the Justice of the Peace!
That’s Italian “Justice” for you!
For all these reasons, you can appeal to the Justice of the Peace of Florence within 60 days from the date you received the Prefect’s payment injunction (sent by registered mail?).
But you’d have to do so in Italian. The Justice of the Peace will “demand” that you pay 37€ beforehand and ask you to attend the hearing (in 2013?).
You can still appeal without paying the 37€, without legal representation, without attending the hearing and see what comes out of it. The Justice of the Peace should still rule on your appeal.
But is it worth the hassle?
I get the distinct impression that there’s a collusion between the Florentine police and Prefecture to disregard the Law and rip off foreign traffic offenders.
Read December 6, 2011 at 12:15 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32296)
Best,
Al
Hi John
I would write to the Italian ambassador immediately and complain that these people are making the law up as they go along. Include all details of your case and quote the relevant articles of Italian law. The prefect must provide a reasoned response within a given timeframe otherwise your appeal is deemed accepted. The response fulfills neither of these criteria and now they are wasting your time and money trying to extract cash from you illegally. You should insist that the ambassador contacts the prefecture to formally have your fine cancelled which should be communicated to you in English within 14 days. I would also write to the British embassy in Rome and the Consulate in Florence detailing your complaint. If you need help drafting any of this you can get my email from Alex.
Best
Kemiker
Following a fabulous holiday in Tuscany July 2011, and a daytrip to Florence, we are now the lucky recipients of apparently not one, but two Highway Code Violations from Polizini Municipale, Comune di Firenze.
Both alleged offences took place the same day (20th July 2011). We have already been charged twice! by our credit-card company (for providing our contact details to the authorities) at E36.30 each time). Now we are being charged E76+25.80 for ‘Circulating in a limited traffic area without authorisation…Prot/Acess 111325077′ and another E76+25.80 for ‘Circulating in a lane reserved for means of public transportation only…Prot/Acess No. 111327618′.
We never saw any signs restricting access….and imagine the signs were either not present , confusing or obscured by vehicles etc.. The amount of the fines for such a trivial ‘offence’ seems extortionate and excessive, it adds up to well over £200…We are unconvinced that we committed the offences and would like proof, so intend to ask for a date and time stamped photograph!
Has anyone tried this and received photographs? We will see what happens.
We live in the UK and are seriously considering not visiting Italy…and certainly not Florence any time soon!
Regards
John
Hi John,
Via EMO’s web site (http://www.emo.nivi.it/) you can consult your file (photographic evidence, fine information, …). Username & password are on the letter you received.
In Italy, for privacy reasons, photographic evidence identifying the offending driver is prohibited. Such pictures are allowed only if taken by laser speed gun and if the traffic offender is pulled up by the police on the spot. Photographs are never attached to the fines. They can be viewed on-line or at the police station.
Read the information at the top of this page and April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment. (http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Let me start off by saying how I (we) readers greatly appreciate your input and advise. I am yet another victim of this injustice. I am a Canadian who visited Italy (Rome) and was charged with ART. 7 C. 9/c. 14 – “driving in a limited traffic area without authorization” The date of infraction was 2010-08-09 (Aug 08) and I received registered mail “Violoation of the Highway Code Report” and 2012-01-11 (Jan 11). This clearly exceeds the 360 day rule! Further, the address on this official by the Corpo di Polizia Roma Capitale notice was incorrect. When reviewing my address with the car rental company (document stamped January 20, 2011), I clearly provided them with my correct address. In any event this registered letter was picked up by me at the local postal office. Can you advise me on how to proceed? I have not recieved any communication of this incident prior to January 2012 and according to the letter 60 day appearl window is closing – Thanks and keep well
Hi Franco,
For notification purposes (360 day rule), the relevant date is the fine sending date.
Check the time stamp on the envelope, the date on the official notification.
I would send the appeal letter (registered with proof of receipt) to the Prefect.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
Al Prefetto di Roma
Prefettura di Roma
via IV Novembre 119/A
00187 Roma
“Il sottoscritto___” for a man, “La sottoscritta___” for a woman.
In Italy the date format is (dd/mm/yyyy).
Write “Al Prefetto di Roma… + full address …” also on the appeal letter.
I would also enclose with the letter, not only a readable copy of the official notification but also Decision 198/1996” of the Italian Constitutional Court with the relevant passages highlighted.
http://ricorsimulte.weebly.com/uploads/4/7/2/5/472555/sentenza_corte_costituzionale_10-17062006_nr.198.pdf
Page 3: “Come si nota dal raffronto [...] siano stati identificati successivamente.”
Page 4: “si consentirebbe una protrazione [...] ai residenti all’estero;”
Write: “Allega: fotocopia del verbale notificato, sentenza Corte Costituzionale 10-17 giugno 1996, n. 198.”
You have until March 11 (Jan 11 + 60 days) to send the appeal letter.
Best,
Al
Al, thanks I have checked the relevand date and time stamp on the envelope and it was January 11, 2012. The date of the infraction was 2010-08-09 (Aug) and the date of ascertainment was 2011-01-20. They appear to try and trick visitors by clearly posting that the “Date of Ascertainment” is the baseline for the stuatue of limitartion starts running – when the actual start date is the “Date of Infraction” – according to my calculation the total days equals 519. Also a problem that I experienced was that they sent the notice to the wrong address, even when it was clearly noted on the rental agency agreement with TradeFleet. I guess I am lucky that our postal system located me, otherwise I would not be able of this notice and hence loose the opportunity to formally appeal.
As a clarification your address for the appeal differs; on the actual form, it states to use the following address:
Al Prefetto di Roma
U.O. Contravvenzioni
Del Comune di Roma
Via Ostiense
131/L
00154, Roma (RM), Italia
Your amazing you even calculated my end date for appeal. On a side note, I understand that you live in Milano, I trust your an ACM supporter!!! We were robbed by the officials against Juve — I hope your not an Inter supporter. In the end what do you think my chances are in winning the appeal?
Hi Franco,
I’m Al.
Alex Roe is Italy Chronicles publisher and he does live in Milan.
I’ve been answering the comments on this specific page of Alex’s blog since April 2010.
I started signing my comments “Al” realizing too late that people would confuse me with Alex.
They’ve been deliberately misleading foreign traffic offenders for a few years now!
Regarding the address, read September 10, 2010 at 8:42 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-28991)
Who gives a damn whether you win the appeal or not?!?
, read also December 4, 2011 at 9:07 pm and December 6, 2011 at 12:15 am comments.
You’ll never pay! Right?
Nevertheless, if you’re looking for a little reassurance
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32279).
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32296).
And, keep in mind that you might never get a reply from the Prefect.
I would also send an email to the EMO (Nivi Credit – infoemo-en@nivi.it) to inform them that you’ve appealed against (fine)/infraction number … with the Prefect of Rome.
It should prevent you from receiving any “last reminder” letter from the EMO.
There seems to be no coordination between the EMO and the Italian Prefectures!
Al
Hello, I received a notice of traffic violation this month – February 2012 – for a violation that took place on April 2, 2010. Almost two years ago. I had already paid for a different violation that took place at the same time, that I was notified of in July 2011. I had no idea there was a 360 day notification law. After reading your column, I did email Nivi Credit and tell them about not hearing from them withing that time limit, we will see what they say. My question is – do they have the right to collect these fines here in the US? And, how can I find that out? I know it has been discussed in your column before, but I couldn’t find an answer to that. Thank you…your information is priceless!
Hi Marie,
They’ll probably misinform you by claiming that you were “identified” less than 360 days ago!
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
Regarding your question, read February 19, 2011 at 9:24 pm comment and following comments.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30124)
You paid the first invalid fine, do not pay the second one!
Best,
Al
Does anyone have an update on Cedar Financial efforts? Have there been any negative effects of their collection attempts such as lowered credit score? Please post all you can to see if these guys are just a bunch of nimrods or if they have any teeth at all. Thank you.
I was contacted today about a ticket from 2008. They claim a certified letter was signed for by my ex wife in 2010 but I never heard of it. My feeling is to ignore them but I do worry about my credit.
Hi Mike,
Don’t waste your time with those nimrods! Just ignore them!
Read February 19, 2011 at 9:24 pm comment and following comments.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30124)
Best,
Al
I find it interesting that there no accounts of anyone getting hit with any negative consequences of non-payment. It seems that the collections are just a bunch of smoke without fire. Also I understand from you blog that:
1) The Florence issued ticket is issued by the City of Florence and the City Police. Not the state of Italy or State Italian Police.
2) The officials have 365 days to notify you in the US which they fail if you avoid signing for the certified mail.
3) All traffic violations in Italy are invalid after five years anyway.
4) Cedar Financial purchased the debt from the EMO and is simply trying to collect as anything over certain amount is profit to them. It seems they have no enforceable power to hurt your credit or affect you in any negative way other than harassment.
Am I right in all this?
Mike
Mike,
1) Over 300 Italian municipalities (including Florence) have outsourced the collection of fines to EMO (European Municipality Outsourcing – a division of Nivi Credit Ltd ).
2) 360 (not 365) days from the date of the traffic violation to SEND the official fine by certified mail.
Read February 5, 2011 at 9:09 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30018)
3) The 5-year statute of limitations from the date of the offence is interrupted by any official act relevant to the fine.
Hence usually 5 years from the day they send the official fine by certified mail.
4) Right!
Cedar Financial and Nivi Credit are members of the TCM Group (“unique global alliance of debt collection agencies”).
Al (not Alex Roe – Italy Chronicles publisher)
Hi Al, I did write to niti emo and told them about the 360 days from infraction. However, they wrote back to tell me that when it is a rental car, they have 360 days from the date they identify who the renter was. I haven’t received anything other than their regular mail notice – didn’t have to sign anything to receive it, just arrived in my mailbox.
I wrote to the rental car agency to find out when they were contacted, but I’m sure since it was so long ago – almost 2 years – I haven’t heard anything.
Should I wait for the official notification and then fight it? And….are they right about the rental car issue?
Thanks again.
Hi Marie,
The unofficial notice (“Notice of payment before notification”) is sent via regular mail.
The official notice, sent via registered mail, is headed “Notification of Violation of the Highway Code” and is the only one which mentions that you can appeal to the Prefect or the Justice of the Peace within 60 days.
What date of “ascertainment” (identification) does your notice mention?
Article 201,1 (Violations Notification) states very clearly that the 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the infraction but the EMO conveniently misreads it as being 360 days from the date of your “identification”.
The concept of “subsequent identification” applies only to Italian residents!!!
Scroll down through some of the comments.
If you have received the unofficial notice, you should certainly wait for the official notification and appeal! I would never ever pay!
Al
Dear Gaby,
Find yourself another friend who “understands” Italian!
The word “ascertainment” – mentioned 5 times in Art. 201,1, 14 times in all in Art. 201,1 to 5bis – ALWAYS refers to the ascertainment of the traffic violation (by means of a traffic camera, speed radar, …on the day it was committed!).
The concept of “subsequent identification” applies only to Italian residents!!!
Art. 201,1 distinguishes between:
- Italian residents who have to be notified within 90 days (150 days for violations committed before August 13th 2010) from the date of the traffic violation OR AS SOON as they can be identified.
- Foreign residents who have to be notified within 360 days from the date of the traffic violation.
Read February 5, 2011 at 9:33 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30019)
Read October 7, 2011 at 7:22 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-31899)
Read Decision 198/1996 of the Italian Constitutional Court.
http://ricorsimulte.weebly.com/uploads/4/7/2/5/472555/sentenza_corte_costituzionale_10-17062006_nr.198.pdf
Page 3: “Come si nota dal raffronto [...] siano stati identificati successivamente.”
Page 4: “si consentirebbe una protrazione [...] ai residenti all’estero;”
Excerpt: “WHILE for residents abroad the legislator sets an absolutely insuperable notifying time limit, although determining it in an ample manner (more than twice the one for Italian citizens), for the latter (Italian citizens) ON THE CONTRARY the 150 day time limit starts from the moment the actual offender or the other individuals liable are subsequently identified.”
The copy per e-mail is not an official notification. You haven’t been formally notified.
As I’ve already written, I would stop wasting my time with the EMO.
Al
Dear Al,
Thanks again for the maximum detailed explanation.
If I follow your advise I don’t do anything. But how can I reach that EMO cancels the issue?
I live in a European country (Hungary) and would like to return to Italy again and again. I want to avoid that if I somehow meet policemen there they take me to the police station and keep me there till I pay the double amount (or even more) of the original fine.
Regards
Gaby
Gaby,
The EMO, the Florentine police or Prefecture won’t cancel your fine.
They’re rapacious scumbags with a total disregard for the law when they try to rip off foreign tourists with invalid fines.
As for being arrested, your name would need to be on a national traffic offender register.
Come back to Italy whenever you wish!
Al
To Al,Alex and Kemiker
Its interesting to have followed these comments and seen how you guys sensed how the authorities have bent the rules to harass tourists into paying up.
I have admire Als persistence in insisting that the date of ascertainment is the date of traffic violation. I must admit I thought the wording was a bit soft and thought Al might have been jumping to conclusions. But the pieces all added up. The extreme period of 360 days was obviously generous compared to the shorter period of 90days for locals suggested that there was already an allowance for identification. A consumer group picked up on the same view. Whenever the word ascertainment was mentioned in the legislation it was in association with the traffic incident. It is surprising that the legislation was allowed to be so ambiguous. In my non legal experience legislation in Australia often has a glossary or addendum defining the key words.
Anyway I am a ZTL offender. Fantastic family holiday in Rome and Umbria July 2010. After a week in Rome hired a car to drive to Umbria. Picked up the car near the main railway station and had to drive back to the hotel to pick up the luggage before our tour to the Italian countryside. On way back to hotel ended up in some back streets thanks to the GPS and that was when the damage was done. Incurred x2 106 Euro fines 4 mins apart on 2nd July 2010.
Received unofficial notice from EMO about a year ago but took no notice of them. Official registered notices received and signed for 15th Feb 2012. Haven’t been able to find any unexplained costs on my credit card from hertz (still looking).
Then saw Al’s Newsflash that the municipality of Rome now interprets the law as it should and the date of ascertainment is the date of traffic violation. Cant make out from the official announcement from http://www.comune.roma.it when this announcement was released but Al noticed it. – Dec 2011.
Yet I have two official documents -dated 15-02-2012 and signed by the officer in charge from the Corpo di Polizia, ROMA CAPITALE demanding payment.
Issuing authority – Municipal police of Rome
Date of infraction – 02-07-2010
Date of ascertainment (date as of the statute of limitation starts running) 21-02-2011
The scam continues despite the fact that the Municipal of Rome is supposed to recognise the 360 day limitation is from the date of the infraction. Why do they persist? This reinforces Als comments about this being revenue driven and scaring foreigners into paying.
I am in the 60 day appeal period and have sent the template appeal letter to the prefect of Rome – registered with proof of delivery. (cost $16).
Should I also contact/email/phone EMO and confront them about this blatant attempt at persisting with old habits and ask what is going on?
Hi Russel,
Thanks for the appreciative comment and for reading this page thoroughly before posting.
The legislation is “ambiguous” only for people in bad faith.
Should you contact EMO and confront them…? Been there, done that.
I’d say only if you wish to waste your time and money.
But, as I’ve already written, you could/should send an email (infoemo-en@nivi.it) to let them know that you have appealed against (fine)/infraction number… with the Prefect of Rome.
It should prevent you from receiving a “last reminder” letter from EMO or possibly “threatening” letters from a debt collection agency established in your country of residence.
Best,
Al (who never jumps to conclusions)
Surely EMO is on very thin ice (at least in Rome), persisting with the misleading FAQ on their website:
Q17 According the Italian Traffic Code the police have 360 days after the date of the violation or identification of the owner of the vehicle within which to notify fines to foreigners. In the event of rented vehicles, the 360 days start as from the date of identification of the holder of the rental agreement at the time of the violation, or from the date of receipt of the personal data sent by the car rental company.
When http://www.comune.roma.it/wps/portal/pcr?contentId=NEW145409&jp_pagecode=newsview.wp&ahew=contentId:jp_pagecode
clearly states:
Per i residenti all’estero o per i veicoli immatricolati all’estero il verbale verrà notificato entro 360 giorni dal giorno della violazione.
= For residents abroad or for foreign registered vehicles the report will be notified within 360 days from the date of the violation.
There is a link at the bottom of the article “Invia questo articolo” (Send this article)
If readers click on this, and email to infoemo-en@nivi.it with a copy and paste of EMO’s Q17 FAQ as above they can’t ignore the facts and claim they uphold the “Convention of Strasbourg” as claimed on their about us page (http://www.emo.nivi.it/Chi_Siamo.aspx).
It will only be by exposure and public humiliation that EMO will clean up their act.
If they are forced to acknowledge the correct interpretation of a national law then this will have to apply in other municipalities.
An email to 060606portale@comune.roma.it (in italian) pointing out EMOs inconsistent FAQ might end up on someones desk who realises the implications.
Russell
EMO didn’t take long to reply to my email pointing out the City of Romes interpretation of the date of ascertainment is wrong. Its this a bluff? EMO telling the Municipal Police of Rome that they have got the law wrong! Can’t even claim that it was lost in the transalation, as the statement is in Italian. Someone who understands Italian might want to give us a translation of the links to Italian Ministry of Transport and Automobile Club d’Italia.
———————————————
Dear Mr Russell ,
please be aware that Municipal Police of Rome have already been informed that this sentence written on their official website is wrong.
As provided by the Italian Ministry of Transport website (http://www.mit.gov.it/mit/site.php?p=normativa&o=vd&id=1&id_dett=204) and by the Automobile Club d’Italia
(http://www.aci.it/sezione-istituzionale/al-servizio-del-cittadino/codice-della-strada/titolo-vi-degli-illeciti-previsti-dal-presente-codice-e-delle-relative-sanzioni/art-201-notificazione-delle-violazioni.html)
“per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento.”
It means that Municipal Police is legally able to send a fine abroad within 360 days from the ascertainment date. In your case, from the day that the car rental company have sent your details to the Municipal Police. Your car rental company have provided your personal details on the 21st of February 2011, therefore Municipal Police’s communication dated 15th of February 2012 was sent just within the aforementioned deadline.
———————————————-
Hi Russell
I’ll avail myself of the opportunity to chip in here. While you’ve got a rapport going with the EMO could you do me a favour and cut&paste this into an email back to them.
It is not within the remit of the EMO to interpret the law. They represent the police in the municipality of Rome and if the police say it is 360 days from the date of the violation then that is what they must adhere to.
The constitutional court was absolutely clear in its decision 198/1996 that there are 2 legal provisions, one for Italian residents and one for foreign residents. These are described clearly at the end of section 2 and in section 3 of the decision. Section 5 describes why 150 days is the maximum tolerable limit for notification when balancing the needs of the recipient to be able to prepare a defence (by still having some recollection of the circumstances) and the time required for administrators to get the offender’s name and address, and also mentions that modern technology has helped to speed up this process (note the limit has now been reduced to 90 days). Section 6 notes that it has been normal practice for the time limit to start from the date at which the authorities begin to look into the matter noting that this meant it could extend beyond the “ample but rigid” time limit allowed to notify foreigners (by inference this again means that the limit runs from the date of the offence for foreigners, not from when the police decide to look into it. And of course they cannot identify a foreigner before they begin to look into the case!!! So there can be absolutely no doubt that the time limit cannot first begin to run from the date of identification). Notwithstanding, section 6 goes on to describe this practice as illegitimate and specifies that the time limit for Italians begins on the day when the authorities are able to identify the offender by virtue of the fact that their vehicle is registered at the licencing authority, ie the date of the offence! If a foreigner rents a car they are identifiable from the date of the offence by virtue of the fact that the rental company has a contract with their name and address on it. For foreigners driving their own cars, exactly the same applies to them as to Italians, they are identifiable through the national licencing authority concerned, it’s only a question of when the police ask for the information. For Italians the limit is 150 days [now 90] from the date of the offence with the possibility of an undefined extention for subsequent identification if, for instance, the vehicle had been re-registered to someone else in the interim period (which is what the case was centred around).
Given the above, in the case of foreign residents the notification time limit can only be 360 days from the date at which it has been ascertained that an offence has been committed. Identification of foreign drivers in foreign cars will always be subsequent to the date of the offence because they cannot be identified through the Italian driver and vehicle licencing agency, however, they remain identifiable from the date of the offence as long as the vehicle is registered with the relevant licencing agency. This is why an extended notification time peiod is allowed. It gives time for the police to identify the driver through the foreign licencing agency in question. This provides the objective basis for discriminating between drivers of different nationalities and keeps Italian law in compliance with human rights legislation. As mentioned above, foreign drivers of Italian registered rental cars are identifiable from the date of the offence by virtue of the rental contract. For this reason the time limits should be equal for foreign and Italian renters of cars on Italian plates. There is no case for objective discrimination here so applying a 360 day time limit for foreigners is illegal and inconsistent which the constitutional court’s definition of “identifiable”.
By claiming that they have as long as they like to identify a foreign driver and then a further 360 days to issue a notification, the objectivity disapperars and the differing treatment becomes discriminatory on the basis of nationality which is illegal under iternational law. This is irrespective of whether the vehicle is registered abroad or in Italy. Remember also that the court considered 150 days from the date of the offence to be the maximum tolerable, so 360 days must really be pushing it and anything longer than that just cannot be allowable.
All European law requires that cross border enforcement is conducted by “competent authorities”. Given that the municipal police forces and the EMO struggle to understand their own legislation and have absolutely no idea what is required under international law, they can not be described as “competent” for the purposes of cross border enforcement and should be ignored.
See what they say to that!
Best
Kemiker
Russell,
It is now I who admire your persistence in “confronting EMO about this blatant attempt at persisting with old habits”.
The links provided simply refer to Article 201,1 (Violations Notification) of the Italian Highway Code which states unequivocally that the 360 day notification time limit (for foreign residents) runs from the date of the traffic violation.
Why? Because, as you very well wrote: “whenever the word ascertainment was mentioned in the legislation it was in association with the traffic incident”.
They’re lying through their teeth!
And I’m willing to bet that they never said anything to the Municipal Police of Rome.
If you wish, you could reply by sending them Decision 198/1996 of the Italian Constitutional Court and kindly asking them for their “interpretation” of the following passages on pages 3 & 4.
Read March 13, 2012 at 2:25 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-33214)
Al
I just received two Notice of Payment letters about violations of “Driving in a limited traffic area without authorization.” Each has a fine of 102.09 euros.
The alleged infraction occurred on February 2, 2011. The date these notice of payment letters were sent is February 27, 2012.
I already spoke to someone at the rental agency, who was friendly and helpful but who advised I just pay the fines.
I can’t even find the streets where the violations allegedly took place — for all I know it was where my hotel was located.
Because the Notice of Payment letters were mailed after the 360 day window closed, I’m leaning toward not paying. Good idea?
To add a little more detail — the date of ascertainment is listed as “2011-08-02″ which I originally interpreted to mean February 8, 2011. However, now I notice that the date on the top of the letter is “2012-02-27″ so I guess the format is Year-Month-Day throughout?
I am pretty certain that these fines were “earned” on my way to my hotel, which I checked on the same day these violations took place. I did not drive the car at any other time except to return it to the rental agency at Roma Termini (God help me if I get more violation notices for the trip from the hotel to train station!!).
I called the hotel, and an agent there said that I could attach a copy of my reservation to the ticket appeal, although he said it “probably wouldn’t work.”
To be honest — this experience and a few others has soured me on Italy a bit, and I probably won’t be going back anytime soon!
Hi Matthew,
“I guess the format is Year-Month-Day throughout?” Right!
The two unofficial “Notice of payment before notification” dated February 27, 2012 are already outside the 360 day limit!
- Wait a few weeks/months for the official “Notification of Violation of the Highway Code” sent via registered mail.
- Appeal to the Prefect of Rome within 60 days.
Read:
- April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
- November 10, 2010 at 4:46 pm (appeal template for multiple fines) comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-29406).
- February 27, 2012 at 3:36 pm comment and the two following comments.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-33131).
Best,
Al
My problem dates from October 2009 when I collected a hire car (eurocar) at Milan airport. We got a bit lost on leaving the airport and pulled into a motorway stop to ask where we were. At some point after leaving we came to a toll barrier which we had trouble understanding but got through and I now dont remember any details at all. A long time later (maybe a year) I received a letter in italian which I didnt understand but appeared to be from the hire firm whose name was placed in bold type and asking for about 60 euros. I dismissed it as a scam, as we didnt go into any towns and I drove well within the limit. Yesterday, almost two and half years later I received a letter in english from a debt collection firm asking for 1318 euros of outstanding debt for a motorway toll. I never got a registered letter, have not been sent photographic evidence, although the dates tally and I was confused by the toll information, and would like to avoid paying this huge sum. I have been to Italy since but not as a driver, maybe I wont till 5 years elapse.
Hi Julie
It isn’t unheard of to be chased by the firms that operate the payment systems on the autostrada but I have never heard of a successful prosecution of anyone who has failed to pay a toll. Cases brought against motorists in Denmark have been swiftly dismissed. A 60 euro fine for the offence would seem reasonable because it is proportionate to the objective of posing a deterrent to non-payment of the toll. That’s where the credibility stops! How has 60 euros become 1318 euros in the space of 18 months? Utterly ridiculous. If it ever went to court the prosecution would have to demonstrate exactly how the costs had escalated and prove that you had received all relevant correspondance which explained to you, in a language that you understand, the consequences of failing to pay at each juncture. Turning 60 euros into 1318 euros would require a lot of steps/warning letters. I would just forget about it. If they ever contact you again ask for all the relevant information (copies of all warning letters sent together with signed receipts for the registered mail, photographic evidence, etc.). Inform them also that in accordance with UK law, traffic offences must be notified with 2 weeks of the offence, so any prosecution will not succeed – in any case legal precedent is on your side.
Could you please name the collection agency concerned? Also make sure to keep all your documentation, I might want to ask you for it at some stage. We already know what the EMO are up to along with foreign debt collection agencies and we need to know if other organisations are involved so that we can sue the lot of them!
Best
Kemiker
Thanks Kemiker
The letter that arrived the other day really threw me, added to that after an initial search through various documents I couldnt find the original letter.
Since then I have had a chance to search again and have found all documents and contrary to what I thought I remembered there was an english translation on the letter which was a ‘fattura’ / invoice not a claim. It states that the payment was made.
The letter was indeed from Europcar and they had used their access to my bank details and taken the payment from me. I had efficiently stored the letter away with the bank statement which shows this transaction, and forgotten all about it till this week.
This evidence puts me in the clear as far as payment is concerned, however it suggests either that through human error (or something else) the fine was not passed on to the appropriate traffic authorities by Europcar or that the autostrada are themselves disorganised and dont know when fines have been payed.
Either way this makes Nivi Credit s.r.i. of via Pordonone, Firenze look opportunistic at the best.
I do not intend to enter into correspondence with them as I do not have any case to answer but it serves as a warning to others.
thanks again
Julie
Hi Julie,
Are you absolutely sure that the invoice from Europcar was for payment of the toll and not an “admin fee” for providing your contact details to the motorway company/debt collection agency?
Anyway, as you wrote, I would ignore any contact attempts from EMO (Nivi Credit) or from a debt collection agency established in your country of residence.
And I would return to Italy whenever I wished.
Best,
Al
Hi Al and Kemiker
Thanks for your comments and expinations, most welcome in putting my mind to rest.
You are right, it didnt occur to me to interpret the phrase ‘Administrative fees for electronic notification of traffic violations’ as meaning that I had only paid for the pleasure of having my details passed on!
I wrongly construed it to mean that the admin fee was the fine itself.
The traffic / autostrada authorities have never been in touch directly and as this first letter was about 15 months after the event and the following one that came last week was just under a year later the whole business it has run out of time anyway.
Thanks for your hep
best
Julie
Hi Alex, Al and all.
First of all, massive Kudos on a truly excellent and dedicated blog. Legends, both.
I got my first Violation report this week, for a violation dated 24.07.2011. I can only guess that I was in the wrong (who truly knows!). However, the Driver details are all messed up (my incorrect wifes name but she wasn’t driving, her incorrect birthday) and so on.
It is entirely possible that there are more reports to come. (Having read most of the above, it’s unlikely that they’re only gonna try to sting me once !).
Also, as a point of interest, we were following the SatNav instructions provided by our hire car !
My intention is to ignore the report and carry on regardless. Can you give me any idea on the worst that could happen ?
Many regards,
Si
Hi Simon,
Your wife signed the rental contract.
Art 196,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Solidarity principle) states that as owner of your (private) vehicle, or as holder of the rental agreement of the vehicle, you are considered to be jointly liable with the author of the traffic violation for the payment of the fine.
I guess you got the unofficial “Notice of payment before notification” sent by regular mail.
When you receive the official “Violation of the Highway Code Notice” via registered mail, why don’t you ask your postman to send it back with an “unable to deliver – nobody by that name at this address” sticker on it.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
The worst that could happen? You may receive “threatening” letters from a debt collection agency established in your country of residence.
Read February 5, 2011 at 10:55 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30020).
Best,
Al
To Scott M
Your comment appears way up the blog. If you have been sent a summons in Italian this is not acceptable. You should sent it back and demand it in English – that’s the law. Read my comment http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-32814 and follow the links and instructions in that post to get it in the right language. In this way you are on the right side of the law. You do not have to act on any judicial or extra-judicial documents that are in a language you do not understand.
Best
Kemiker
Hi Scott
How are you managing to post so far up the blog? There are a number of reasons why EC 861/2007 will not be used by the Italians. While it is for civil and commercial matters according to Article 2, §1 it may not be used for administrative matters. I have it in writing from the chief of police in Florence that these are adminstrative fines for which reason the rights confered by ECHR do not apply (he’s wrong on that one because those rights are in the EC Charter and specifically enshrined in all legislation related to cross-border enforcement). In some countries motoring offences are considered to be criminal offences so these countries would be unlikely to accept claims for motoring offences using this legislation.
Other inconveniences are:
this has to go to court which would expose the lies around the Constitutional Court’s decision 196.
. That would be fun.
it is a written procedure and the defendant is not obliged to hire a lawyer, which means that it is cheap and far more likely to go to court than under the present system.
A security may not be demanded in advance
The Justice of the Peace is thus removed from the usual procedure since he requires both a security and that the defendant has legal representation.
The time limits involved are very tight (the court needs to issue a judgement within 30 days) which will not suit the Italian system at all. With Florence issuing more than 600 tickets a day, the court system would go from seizure to meltdown (the prefect’s office has already gone into meltdown because of the number of appeals it receives).
Foreign courts would complain about the volume of enforcement notices coming from Italy causing an unacceptable adminstrative burden on their own legal systems.
The defendant must be served with a translation into a language he understands by the court. The EMO act only for the police, not the courts.
Article 16 deals with the award of costs “the court or tribunal shall not award costs to the successful party to the extent that they were unnecessarily incurred or are disproportionate to the claim.” Since know that the costs applied by the EMO are disproportionate (more than EUR80 for a EUR135 fine) they would suffer a reduced revenue.
This legislation could be used to sue Italian rental companies to get the admin fees refunded when people make successful appeals
As to point 2 of your post, you have contested the fine so it doesn’t apply.
Regarding Framework decision 214/2005 if you’re a UK resident then any claim from Italy would be rejected because the UK only accepts its use in criminal matters. The countries using this legislation are doing so almost exclusively for road traffic offences http://eurocrim.jura.uni-tuebingen.de/cms/en/doc/1448.pdf
Scroll down towards the bottom to read the UKs comments.
If you need any help drafting a letter to the embassies you can get my email from Alex.
Best
Kemiker
Same story here- received a letter from EMO about a supposed “driving in limited traffic area” which was submitted to police 7 months after the supposed violation, and did not receive the letter until 18 months after that date, and 3 months after they said they mailed it. I did not receive a ticket while in Italy, and did not drive on any road marked “limited area.”
I have written two emails to the EMO company, and perhaps I will try to phone the phone number I saw in earlier posts here. (Is that still a valid number?)
Honestly, the treatment I received while in Italy was fairly horrible. I don’t recommend visiting there and I definitely suggest NOT renting a car if you do go. They will take every advantage of you that they can. I mean it was so, so bad.
Thanks for posting this- hopefully something will be done about it all.
-J
Hi J,
You must have driven into a ZTL (limited traffic area).
I suppose you received the unofficial “Notice of payment before notification” sent by regular mail.
Read:
- April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
- February 27, 2012 at 3:36 pm comment and following comments.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-33131).
The phone number is on the letter you received.
Best,
Al
Ok I have read some of this but would appreciate some clarification on a fine I recieved. This is my story – I hired a car from europcar in aug 2009 on my way back to the airport in Rome, I entered the motorway and missed the toll booths (not sure how but obviously couldnt do a u turn to go back through) so carried on. When I got to Rome I obviously didnt have the relevent ticket to put in the machine so pressed the button for help, spoke to someone and they lifted the barrier for me to pass.
I recieved my credit card statement and noticed a payment to europcar that i wasnt expecting so called them to find out what it was for. I was told that the £85.25 was to pay for a traffic violation fine so I accepted this and carried on with my life. Then in March 2012 I get a letter from Nivi Credit demanding 62.86 euros off me for a fine for non payment of motorway toll?! I wrote back and told them I had paid it and sent a copy of my credit card statement to prove it. Now in April I have another letter from Nivi Credit saying that the payment of £85.25 that europcar took was not to pay my fine but for “admin fees for electronic notification of traffic violation” Can someone tell me what I should do as I’m not sure what to believe.
Thanks x
Hi Sally,
Have you read April 12, 2012 at 3:40 pm comment and following comments?
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-33427).
The payment to Europcar could well have been “only” the admin fee for providing your details to the motorway company/debt collection agency.
But the amount of £85.25 (roughly €100) is really high for an admin fee!
Maybe you could call Europcar and ask for clarification on the question?
Best,
Al
I was in Venice, Italy in Sept 2012 and lost my toll road ticket. When we came to the automated payment machine, I didn’t have the 80 euro in cash, and I didn’t get my credit card into the machine in the allotted amount of time to pay the 80 euro fine. So I knew I would have a fee to pay for loosing the toll ticket. I talked to the rental car (thrifty thru Auto Europa) and told them all about it telling them I wanted to pay the fine to make sure I didn’t get billed further. They told me I would be contacted and they would send out a bill in about 60-90 days once it came to the rental car agency. Knowing so many people have had problems in Italy with fines, when I got home from my honeymoon I started emailing and calling all the companies trying to find out how I could pay this debt. NO ONE would help me, and I kept getting placed on hold, or told not to worry about it they would contact me prior to charging me any fines. Well a couple months ago I got charged on my credit card 60 euros or so, so I thought ok, there it is, they have settled it and got my ticket. But I never received notice from the rental car agency. Then yesterday I got my credit card statement and I had a $2408.08 (dollar) charge on it from Auto Europa!!! Are you kidding me!! I tried for months to get this taken care of and was told multiple times that I would get a bill. I’m so angry and I have no idea how to fix this! I call the Italian rental car agency and they have no clue how to help me, and this is obviously the means by which the Italian government rips off tourist while in their country. What can I do, who can I call and how can I get this ridiculous charge taken care of??? Any help PLEASE!! Desperate in Arizona! Lynda
Hi Linda
These fines are completely out of control! Call your credit card company and have the charge reversed. It is fraudulent without any doubt. The rental company is not entitled to pay any fine on your behalf. The tolling company needs to contact you personally to arrange payment of the toll and any surcharge. The cost cannot already have run up to $2400. Email the rental company and detail your case as above then inform them that they have made a fraudulent charge to your credit card which you have reversed. Ask for a full explanation including pointing out which clause of the rental contract authorises them to pay fines on your behalf. Contact the tolling company and ask for a detailed breakdown of the charges and demand to know why you have not been contacted before a fraudulent charge was made to your credit card. You will need everything in writing. You should not be paying more than the toll plus max EUR 150 surcharge.
Best
Kemiker
Hi Lynda,
General rental conditions Auto Europa Italy.
- Fines, highway tolls and parking tickets payment:
All fines issued further to a violation of the Street Code and/or missing tolls and/or parking tickets issued during the rental period will be notified to the customer.
Moreover, client will be charged on his credit card for a supplement of € 50,00 plus VAT as handling fee per fine and/or missing toll and/or parking ticket.
The €60 (€50 + VAT) charge is the admin fee for providing your details to the motorway company/debt collection agency.
Rental companies do not charge you for the payment of fines, unpaid toll tickets.
Also FYI :
http://www.autovie.it/cms/data/pages/000172.aspx
Client without a ticket
Should a Client be unable to return the entry ticket due to loss or failure to collect the ticket on entry, the toll payable is calculated according to the law (art. 176/16 Highway Code) from the most distant entry station. However, if the Client has proof indicating the actual entry station, he/she is entitled to pay the corresponding toll.
http://www.autovie.it/cms/data/pages/files/000172_resource2_orig.pdf
http://www.autovie.it/cms/data/pages/files/000172_resource5_orig.pdf
Best,
Al
Alex, Al and All,
I received a Notice of Payment initial letter from NIVI alleging “driving in a limited traffic area without authorization” and alleging to impose a fine on the car that I had hired. This was in Parma.
Date of Infraction: 2011-09-07
Date of Ascertainment: 2011-11-07
Date of Notice of Payment: 2012-04-30
Asking for payment within 20 days of receipt for 120.29 EUROS to emo/nivi.
The credit card used with the car rental agency is not valid and was replaced shortly after the trip to Italy. It appears that the car rental agency provided my information in 60 days.
In the above Sections in this situation of receiving a “NOTICE OF PAYMENT” the initial communication it seems my options are:
” Pay the fine or fines at the time of the notification. No further action will be taken – but you are not obliged to pay.
Wait until the actual fines arrive – usually a letter you have to sign for. The Official Notification must be sent by registered/ recorded deliver mail.
Write to the agency which sent the notification in an attempt to carry out a form of ‘informal’ appeal. While the agency is not bound to do anything, and cannot cancel the fines, it can contact the municipality in which the infraction took place and bring further information, such as extenuating circumstances, to the municipality’s attention. This might cause the fine or fines to be cancelled or reduced.”
The NOTICE OF PAYMENT is well within the time limit, that is about 250 days in if we accept that the authorities have 360 days from date of infraction. OR 420 days if they take the position that they can tack on an additional 60 days if the Date of Ascertainment is the operative date ( I know it is well argued that this is not the case for non Italy residents.)
I live in Canada and am not sure of:
1. Up to what date under the Notice of Payment could I send the payment asked for in it to Emo/Nivi and have the matter resolved? There is no postal date on the envelop. Only the date the Notice was prepared (April 30, 2012). How long can I wait to think about this and see if any other Notices come in before paying if I decide to go that route?
2. If I wait for a Notification of Violation to come by Registered Mail (I understand that it may or may not come in a form where I am asked to sign for it) will this Notification be for the same amount “owing” as in the Notice of Payment document? Do I have 60 days from date of receipt of the Notification of Violation to pay the amount to Emo/Nivi? I understand I have 60 days from receipt to lodge an appeal but can I just pay the originally asked for amount within 60 days from receipt and count on the matter being resolved definitively?
As a practical matter, given that neither the credit card company, nor the authorities have a valid credit card for me, and, that I am a citizen of and resident in Canada and not planning on returning to Italy soon what is a good approach?
Cheers
Ron
Hi Ron,
Thanks for reading (at least part of) this really long page before posting.
1 – I believe it’s a wise, prudent decision on your part to wait and see if any other notices of payment arrive in the next few weeks.
How long? The Notice of payment is a “courtesy letter”. As long as you pay, they’ll be grateful! Even after 40, 60, … days.
There’s no way to predict when they’ll send the official Notification.
2 – But it’ll probably be sent before the 360 day time limit will be up in early September.
The official notification is roughly 6 euros (cost of a registered letter to Canada) higher than the unofficial notice of payment. You have 60 days from date of receipt to pay the amount requested or to lodge an appeal.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-27584).
If you don’t pay or don’t appeal within 60 days, the amount is roughly doubled.
The authorities or the rental agency won’t charge the fine to your credit card.
Read September 24, 2010 at 6:55 pm comment.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-29100).
Read also February 19, 2011 at 9:24 pm comment and following comments.
(http://italychronicles.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/#comment-30124).
Best,
Al
Hey Al,
I am a U.S. military member stationed in Northern Italy. I don’t know if this would make me a resident of italy ( i have a codice fiscale and live in an italian house). I recieved seven seperate fines in registered mail today for a seven ZTL violation on november 10-11 2011 for 88 euro a piece for a grand total of 616 euro! Does the 150 day thing apply to me or would it be the 360 day? Also I am a Jr and it only has my first and last name on the letter. Could I possibly get away with trying to say that is not me? Should i try the killing time “trick” by going back and forth with them over mail asking for a english translation? Should I ask for solid proof (ie pictures) or ask if their camera were in working order that day? What would you suggest?
Hi Juan,
I guess you were driving a rental car at the time of the ZTL violations, right?
And you gave your Italian address when you signed the rental contract.
Since August 13th 2010, the amount of time traffic fines have to be sent out to Italian residents has been reduced from 150 days to 90.
In such a case (Italian resident, rental with Italian plates):
–> The police must send the fine within 90 days (from the date of the traffic violation) to the rental agency,
–> The rental agency then must send your details within 60 days (required by law) to the police,
–> Once the police have (identified you) received your details, they have another 90 days to send you the fine.
Do the fines mention when the police have received your details? When were these fines sent?
“Jr”.
It will be considered as a minor error, especially considering that “all other details are correct” and that you’ve signed for the registered letters, thus admitting implicitly that you were the person they were addressed to.
“English translation”.
For an Italian resident?
Pictures? Camera in working order?
Don’t the fines point you to a website where you can see pictures of the back of the car with the license plate?
Remember that you have 60 days from date of receipt to pay the amount requested or to lodge an appeal.
If you wish to send me a scan of the fine(s), you can ask Alex Roe (Italy Chronicles publisher) for my email via this site’s contact system.
Best,
Al